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Hitman Mk5
Posted - 2009.07.06 00:10:00 - [151]
 

Originally by: Ceyin Kusleyha
Originally by: Bellum Eternus
99% of us are bored to death with 0.0. Most of us have been there, done that and just don't care for it anymore. When was the last time you personally put money in your pocket after a fleet battle?


Well, 0.0 is not only about fleet battles you know...
You are still missing a huge part of eve, but you think to be a superhero.
I can only see a "gimme moar easy targets waawa".


Oh Bellum most of forgot to say how boring POS sieges are i mean you sit around for a couple of hours reload keep firing and then oh wonderful a reinforce mode lets wait around again for about 12 hours no sir i definitely prefer lo sec at least you can get 1-2 minute fight not 10-12 hours no one is that dedicated to the game to go to those fights every day and have fun

Tauranon
Gallente
Weeesearch
Posted - 2009.07.06 01:16:00 - [152]
 

Originally by: Zuhlaetah

Freigthers come with big stats, while miners get as low as 450 HP. Go fit that.




The previous changes to Concord times was to ensure that freighters can perform their role. There is nothing a freighter pilot can really do, because they can't be fitted.

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The entire shield training requirements (level 4 skills), will take considerably less time for me than exhumer V, so its a pretty mild diversion from perfect miner



That is a month. You won't even find miner characters for sale with those skills, like you don't see PvP pilots with lots of industry and science skills. Because the character would actually lose value instead of gaining it.




I have to lol at this. Nobody devalues a miner for having appropriate hulk tanking skills, and it is still less time than exhumer V.

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Your "cure" is an EFT warrior operation and still, it can be countered in 5 minutes.
On SCC-lounge, where the "Hulk pop" phenomenon started, they keep saying that if one free ship is not enough to pop an hulk they send 2. Result: 2 free ships popped vs more expensive ship. Now, if it was 50M of cost per 130M kill then it'd be MUCH fairer.




If the boards are full of well fitted hulk losses, then that argument becomes fair. They are however absolutely full of fail fits. Videos are full of motionless hulks that don't react to a looter arriving at its bows *uncloaked* and sitting there.

I think most of the pirate motivation comes from the utter fail of most hulk pilots, and if they were all reasonably fitted, flown by active pilots, they'd probably get mostly left alone.

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Until what's used costs like 1M a death net of insurance, the result is always the same. Even (and this is the part that pis_ses me) if I park a fleet in defense. Can't really lock and kill 2 gankboats landing in and 2-3 shotting the target.




lol.

You can afford to bring 2 battleships, but can't afford 2 remote shield reps and a couple of ECCM modules, even though you don't even have to react or shoot with those.

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Moreover, pilots able to use that different kinds of T2 stuff at this point would be brutally more useful to mission and earn 2-4 times as much. Why mine then?




mining is better than level 2 missions, and my mining character has very few dps skills. dps skills are a requirement for efficient mission running.

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Also, with a normal setup with my worst pilot I get 1519 yield, with this setup 1345. This means a 11.5% loss. > Double loss than the mining foreman fleet bonus. > Double loss than losing the 5% mining bonus given by 700M implants.
Incidentally, due to that loss I go below the "rags profession" thresold that made me stop mining already.




The *difference* between dcu fitted and not is 150 hours if you lose a hulk that you wouldn't otherwise have lost. You also sound macro - because its very hard to get max yield from 3 miners at once.

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And all of this, still easily killed with 2 free cheap ships.
Imagine the fat killboard, when you kill 25B worth of stuff with a loss of 250M.



because killboards really MATTER.

god forbid you lose a 1v3 in a non combat ship, with no tanking equipment fitted, what an UNBALANCED game!

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and since you are a highsec miner, it would make sense to prioritise EHP ahead of 0.0/lowsec mining crystals in your training plan...



Actually in the specific case the characters were and will be 0.0 miners.




lol argument consistency much! The ore didn't pop in missions, and closest pop was 23 jumps away. Now it does pop in missions, but you are supposedly 0.0 mining. Arguments about being ganked in 0.0 are irrelevant. No concord, and plenty of tacklers that can hold a battleship down for reinforcements to arrive. You can't hope that the hulk will ever be made into a battleship, and even then in 0.0 its not safe.

Herzog Wolfhammer
Gallente
Sigma Special Tactics Group
Posted - 2009.07.06 04:52:00 - [153]
 

6 page thread performs an excellent hit on your ship, destroying for .... OMG

Epic Edit
Posted - 2009.07.06 05:28:00 - [154]
 

Edited by: Epic Edit on 06/07/2009 05:28:45
Just to jump on the suicide ganking of Hulks, I did the following.

I trained for a Hulk
I bought a Hulk
I fitted the Hulk
I undocked
I said "Gank" Local
Finally I self destructed...

...I don't see what the big deal is.

Never Mind


Zuhlaetah
Posted - 2009.07.06 07:54:00 - [155]
 

Edited by: Zuhlaetah on 06/07/2009 07:56:07
Edited by: Zuhlaetah on 06/07/2009 07:55:35
Quote:

The previous changes to Concord times was to ensure that freighters can perform their role. There is nothing a freighter pilot can really do, because they can't be fitted.



They could begin with not AFK piloting thru Uedama and similar. But hey, only miners are supposed to stay and stare at those colorful lasers for hours to no end, don't they?


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I have to lol at this. Nobody devalues a miner for having appropriate hulk tanking skills, and it is still less time than exhumer V.



No one devalues a miner with appropriate missioning skills, because the miners that can fit T2 invuln fields and so on, are really wasted at mining. It takes far less than your "exhumers V" time to have a character learn to BC and then do level 3 missions and go on par. Later go for level 4 sure to have made a GOOD deal.


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If the boards are full of well fitted hulk losses, then that argument becomes fair. They are however absolutely full of fail fits.



The ORE mining laser + Pith / Gist fitting are lol fits and are laughed after.
The no tank all mining fittings are lol fits and are laughed after.

Your low yeld, T2 cost and high non industry skill points (for miner standards) fit is still unable to protect the guy from 2 x 1M cost suicide boats. Everyone who does that got at least 2 accounts.

At this point, the no tank max yeld fit is the one giving the best mining at lowest cost and due to the past rare suicide ganks, it was a waste to go beyond that.
Now that suicide ganks are more frequent, miners have 2 choices:

- Stop training their main character and train missioning skills (I am surprised you did not suggest "evasive maneuvres") and buy T2 stuff to still be killed by > 1 suicide boat.

- Don't do anything, wait the fad to be over, mine 11.5% more, don't train anything, don't spend and know that 1 suicide boat will be enough.

I would not be surprised they chose the latter, whilst downgrading to covetor (you'll lose 15% yield but then the cost per loss is "minimal") and wait for the fad to be over.


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Videos are full of motionless hulks that don't react to a looter arriving at its bows *uncloaked* and sitting there



Videos show a guy picking an obvious system (read: no downtime), summarily scanning, jumping in and then going in action.
Fun and action: 90% of the time.



Miner point of view: slowly get to a belt. Sloooowly get in roids range. Activate lasers. For the next 6 minutes, YAWN, 100% boredom.
You can't pretend paying people will mine (this is already a question on their sanity) AND attentively check every moving pixel out, for hours and hours. I even tried, after 1 hour you fall asleep hard.
In case of ice, it's 20 minutes and not 6 of complete, utter boredom, in an already easily botted easysauce activity.

So you act surprised if you arrive during those 20 minutes the guy is probably spending better time with his wife?

If mining was that adrenalinic, 100% attention Indiana Jones adventure, then they'd be to blame for being afk. After your first billion veldspar extracted, you just enter a level where you CBA to stare at the screen like an idiot for hours.
Having done both, I dare say that having to pay attention to mine is almost as bad as a large, repped POS take down.

Zuhlaetah
Posted - 2009.07.06 07:59:00 - [156]
 

Quote:

I think most of the pirate motivation comes from the utter fail of most hulk pilots, and if they were all reasonably fitted, flown by active pilots, they'd probably get mostly left alone.



"Reasonably fitted" as in with nice loot to take off them? What is a reasonable fitting when you can't insure a ship safety even if you park 3-4 BCs to guard it, much less if the ship is alone.
Keeping the ship aligned and away off the jump in point does 100 times more than having it fitted.
Problem is that after 3-4 hours of nothingness, no human being won't alt tab to another client and do something VASTLY less boring, ie playing "Paint drying watcher simulator" or "Real time grass growth evaluation".
You get suddenly awakened by the sound of a lock. ALT tab... ah it's just the 999th rat spawn. They can't even touch the shields.
After 15 minutes another lock... but this time, at hour 120 of day 14 of paying attention, it was not a rat.
Who's going to give the guy back his 120 hours of wasted life? At this point, ZERO fit a covetor and let it afk mine and do something worth of an human being. If it gets popped, /care.


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You can afford to bring 2 battleships, but can't afford 2 remote shield reps and a couple of ECCM modules,



Of course going blinky with your 2 T2 fitted battleship against a guy (but might be a team, ie on SCC they organize 2+ people attacks with multiple ships and battleships) able to just toss more free ships (gankgeddons and so on) is REALLY going to help... his killboard.


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mining is better than level 2 missions, and my mining character has very few dps skills. dps skills are a requirement for efficient mission running.



I noticed your miner (posts above) flies slower and is worse than my ones. But then why is it you to tell me to train more skills?
My miners shoot at stuff just fine, guess what happens in 0.0 if you can't shoot at rats?
Upgrade your miner to be a real man like you preach to my ones to do!

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The *difference* between dcu fitted and not is 150 hours if you lose a hulk that you wouldn't otherwise have lost. You also sound macro - because its very hard to get max yield from 3 miners at once.



Again, no one of my characters ever had the *sligthest* issue at turning on all 3 x T2 miners with 2 x T2 MLUs, even at the same time (neither in Hulk nor Covetor).
Maybe I invested time in my miners to mine instead of going off tangents and make them pseudo-missioneers to still fail?

Zuhlaetah
Posted - 2009.07.06 08:02:00 - [157]
 

Edited by: Zuhlaetah on 06/07/2009 08:34:35
Quote:

because killboards really MATTER

god forbid you lose a 1v3 in a non combat ship, with no tanking equipment fitted, what an UNBALANCED game!




Apparently I see people so proud of their civilian kills, it makes them elite. They are elite noob killers, as the others will just move on, go to 0.0, use expendable ships (in fact I am bothering to argue here just because I want to point out the fallacity of what's told not because I lost a single ship or anything).
Moreover, and this is where the game is *outdated* (ie insurance still paying full or above hull value) is that with your 1v3 scenario, you'd kill ALSO a well tanked ship.
While killing 1v3 could still be fine (it's civilian ships after all), the fact it comes for free is odd to say the least.
A real suicide ganker, at least, has to fit T2 turrets on a thrasher and 2 rounds of faction ammo and to train termodynamics and to grind security status back. This is "sane ganking" in my POV. The fact it's not free, makes them REALLY go after the fail fits, REALLY go after AFKers, because they have a balance to keep positive. They also have to kill possibly non afk people, it's reasonable to expect haulers to be at the computer when crossing the well known chokepoints.
Totally different is a miner suicide ganker, the 2-3 rounds of faction ammo is really all is needed to achieve the full effect with no other downside whatsoever, including 0.01 sec status loss in the frequent case the miner had drones out.
And the miner is almost granted not being at the computer if not when roids disappear or to empty the load.



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lol argument consistency much! The ore didn't pop in missions, and closest pop was 23 jumps away. Now it does pop in missions, but you are supposedly 0.0 mining. Arguments about being ganked in 0.0 are irrelevant. No concord, and plenty of tacklers that can hold a battleship down for reinforcements to arrive. You can't hope that the hulk will ever be made into a battleship, and even then in 0.0 its not safe



Maybe if you could read better you'd see the difficult concept of:


- Being 0.0 miners in the past

- Being 0.0 miners in the future

- NOT being 0.0 till the recent present (after the thread started).


Moreover, I don't really care (nor want to bore people to beyond tears) with the full story of individual characters (little relevance with the topic), so I did not talk how I have clones in a Rorqual in 0.0, others in Gallente space, others in Minnie space and how I cycle them (I have spare retrievers, 1 covetor, gas and ice harvesters) to dig the odd amounts I could need at a given day.


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...I don't see what the big deal is



There's no big deal. There's LULS at reading about the expensive, low efficiency, SP intensive and yet easily counterable "measures" suggested by those who do it.

Imho it'd have been just better to create a: "LOL we kill you for free, suckers and there's NOTHING you can really do about it".
Basically an honest harass-gankage statement a la Goon, not a farce pretending to give advices that are unpractical or just not done by anyone, including the "All V skills EFT solution".

Imiarr Timshae
Caldari
Funny Men In Funny Hats
Posted - 2009.07.06 13:44:00 - [158]
 

Originally by: Bellum Eternus
killing players who do everything imaginable to avoid PVP.Laughing


Exactly how do you kill players who never undock from NPC stations?

Tazalsh
Posted - 2009.07.06 15:48:00 - [159]
 

Originally by: Msgerbs
Tezalish, since none of that applies to my post exept the first sentence, I'm assuming you quited my post by accident.


Please quote the quote of "Tezalsh" quoting "Msgerbs" because I dont see it.

Tezalsh, not Tezalish, im not "approximately somewhat a 'Tezal'.

murder one
Gallente
Death of Virtue
MeatSausage EXPRESS
Posted - 2009.07.06 20:53:00 - [160]
 

Originally by: Imiarr Timshae
Originally by: Bellum Eternus
killing players who do everything imaginable to avoid PVP.Laughing


Exactly how do you kill players who never undock from NPC stations?


Touche'. LOL.

RonPaul Rox
Posted - 2009.07.06 23:33:00 - [161]
 

If you are a miner near Tintoh, read this...

http://www.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=1114185

Tauranon
Gallente
Weeesearch
Posted - 2009.07.07 04:57:00 - [162]
 

Originally by: Zuhlaetah

They could begin with not AFK piloting thru Uedama and similar. But hey, only miners are supposed to stay and stare at those colorful lasers for hours to no end, don't they?


You and I both know its still more than possible to gank a freighter in a 0.5.

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No one devalues a miner with appropriate missioning skills, because the miners that can fit T2 invuln fields and so on, are really wasted at mining. It takes far less than your "exhumers V" time to have a character learn to BC and then do level 3 missions and go on par. Later go for level 4 sure to have made a GOOD deal.



I'm sorry but that is absurd. The whole point is that you can choose max yield, or to tank your ship. Now the ramifications of that choice are coming home to some pilots. Like I said, I only have to survive 1 casual gank more than you, to be hundreds of hours ahead isk wise. That is a GOOD GAME MECHANIC. People buy hulk pilots with tank skills so they can tank 0.0 spawns. 3 of the mid slots in the hulk are irrevelent to mining yield.

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Your low yeld, T2 cost and high non industry skill points (for miner standards) fit is still unable to protect the guy from 2 x 1M cost suicide boats. Everyone who does that got at least 2 accounts.




It requires 2 brutixes, good pilot skills and a cloaked bookmarker, and it requires me to just not go into warp whilst the brutixes are still in invulnerable mode, which I can because I'm aligned. The net losses are 4-8mil to the gankers, and the net gains (only T2 gear on my wreck), are probably similar at best. Solo brutixes will fail.

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At this point, the no tank max yeld fit is the one giving the best mining at lowest cost and due to the past rare suicide ganks, it was a waste to go beyond that.



We've been around this before. The relative difference between me fitted for max yield and me fitted with a DCU II is 150 hours of mining to -catch- up if I lose 1 extra hulk to a gank.

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Now that suicide ganks are more frequent, miners have 2 choices:

- Stop training their main character and train missioning skills (I am surprised you did not suggest "evasive maneuvres") and buy T2 stuff to still be killed by > 1 suicide boat.



Now you are being absurd. If you can see around your box of tissues for 30 seconds, you'll see that I've always suggested being aligned. Evasive maneuvres is pointless, a hulk will still take too long to go to warp.

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- Don't do anything, wait the fad to be over, mine 11.5% more, don't train anything, don't spend and know that 1 suicide boat will be enough.


lol. I'm gunna have to fit a kleenex launcher II to cover the demand.

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Videos show a guy picking an obvious system (read: no downtime), summarily scanning, jumping in and then going in action.
Fun and action: 90% of the time.



and the AFK 10mil/hr guy in a 175mil fitted ship hasn't caused that at all, noway!

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Miner point of view: slowly get to a belt. Sloooowly get in roids range. Activate lasers. For the next 6 minutes, YAWN, 100% boredom.


I BM the belts in a frigate, I land at ideal range to begin.

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If mining was that adrenalinic, 100% attention Indiana Jones adventure, then they'd be to blame for being afk. After your first billion veldspar extracted, you just enter a level where you CBA to stare at the screen like an idiot for hours.
Having done both, I dare say that having to pay attention to mine is almost as bad as a large, repped POS take down.



You chose it. You chose it because it was afk. You get what you deserve for that choice (boredom, occasional ship loss). The more the afk's get hunted down and killed, the more the NON afk choice is meaningful, the better IMHO.

Tauranon
Gallente
Weeesearch
Posted - 2009.07.07 05:22:00 - [163]
 

Originally by: Zuhlaetah


"Reasonably fitted" as in with nice loot to take off them? What is a reasonable fitting when you can't insure a ship safety even if you park 3-4 BCs to guard it, much less if the ship is alone.
Keeping the ship aligned and away off the jump in point does 100 times more than having it fitted.




hi, and how many times have I suggested being aligned in this thread!

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Problem is that after 3-4 hours of nothingness, no human being won't alt tab to another client and do something VASTLY less boring, ie playing "Paint drying watcher simulator" or "Real time grass growth evaluation".
You get suddenly awakened by the sound of a lock. ALT tab... ah it's just the 999th rat spawn. They can't even touch the shields.
After 15 minutes another lock... but this time, at hour 120 of day 14 of paying attention, it was not a rat.
Who's going to give the guy back his 120 hours of wasted life? At this point, ZERO fit a covetor and let it afk mine and do something worth of an human being. If it gets popped, /care.




This I'm afraid sums up exactly why people want to kill you. You've just made 90mil amongst your 4 characters virtually afk. thats not at all unbalanced.

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Of course going blinky with your 2 T2 fitted battleship against a guy (but might be a team, ie on SCC they organize 2+ people attacks with multiple ships and battleships) able to just toss more free ships (gankgeddons and so on) is REALLY going to help... his killboard.



so you go blinky RRing a target that hasn't aggressed anything. thats news to me.

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mining is better than level 2 missions, and my mining character has very few dps skills. dps skills are a requirement for efficient mission running.



I noticed your miner (posts above) flies slower and is worse than my ones. But then why is it you to tell me to train more skills?
My miners shoot at stuff just fine, guess what happens in 0.0 if you can't shoot at rats?
Upgrade your miner to be a real man like you preach to my ones to do!



You berate me for training tank skills, and then train nav V. Rolling Eyes

The few dps skills my alt has are for medium/light drones, which are not an efficient path for missioning, but are useful for clearing scramble npc frigates from a mining hulk tanking a spawn, and obviously drone interfacing is completely irrelevent to a miner Rolling Eyes

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The *difference* between dcu fitted and not is 150 hours if you lose a hulk that you wouldn't otherwise have lost. You also sound macro - because its very hard to get max yield from 3 miners at once.



Again, no one of my characters ever had the *sligthest* issue at turning on all 3 x T2 miners with 2 x T2 MLUs, even at the same time (neither in Hulk nor Covetor).
Maybe I invested time in my miners to mine instead of going off tangents and make them pseudo-missioneers to still fail?



Thats all good when you land at the belt looking at the screen, but we both know that highsec rocks are small, and the half-yield cycles are common, and it requires a considerable amount of attention to gain much benefit from 3 and 5% yield skill ups, (ie you have to pay attention to short cycling, only cycle x amounts of time on larger rocks only), which you can't do afk for 3 accounts and haul at the same time.

Either you are part afk and or you aren't gaining full benefit from your extra yield skills or you are NOT afk, or something is doing the micro to get the most benefits from your yield skills for you.

Zuhlaetah
Posted - 2009.07.07 10:03:00 - [164]
 

Quote:

You and I both know its still more than possible to gank a freighter in a 0.5



Sure, but it's not for free and requires effort on coordinating a fleet for that and involves in a number of pilots losing security status.

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That is a GOOD GAME MECHANIC. People buy hulk pilots with tank skills so they can tank 0.0 spawns. 3 of the mid slots in the hulk are irrevelent to mining yield



1) Actually they buy those pilots indeed and... it does not work.
Why do you think you get so many kill mails about hulk pilots with Gist and even Pith items?
Because they are 1:1 made after Halada's "The Complete Miner's Guide" suggested 0.0 fitting.
The old guide suggested Pith the last Gist.

But wait... people bought those oh-so-0.0 good pilots and they are those who die a lot (and those exact drops continuously linked on SCC-lounge chat).

Hence having bought the 0.0 "rugged" pilot helped to... create a lolmail and that's it.


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3 of the mid slots in the hulk are irrevelent to mining yield



Too bad that you either survive OR die. The DCU contributes for about half of the EHP so removing it makes 1 gank boat killing perfectly possible. Result: you lose the ship AND the 3 x T2 items you paid.
Not to talk how once you rely on shields, there are nice ammo for that, the same ammo used for Indy gate camps (where they know they will be shield tanked).


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It requires 2 brutixes, good pilot skills and a cloaked bookmarker, and it requires me to just not go into warp whilst the brutixes are still in invulnerable mode, which I can because I'm aligned.



You talk like 26M for a cov ops you will reuse is something hard. Or that training for Brutix is akin to Battleship V.

Wait, what do those high sec suicide ganker alts pilot, but with higher skill (for T2 weapons)? You guessed it right! Brutixes! It's not _that_ hard or long.


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and it requires me to just not go into warp whilst the brutixes are still in invulnerable mode, which I can because I'm aligned



And this works only in the case you gouge your eyes on the mining ship 23/7.
I tried what happens when you alt tab to empty the indy GSCs or when you frequently receive an in game mail... 30 seconds spent in another window fly fast and guess how promptly I could warp off?
But hey I suppose your quick fix is to be super-human, never go take a pee, never remove eyes off the screen.
Mining, after all, REALLY earns you so many billions per hour to be worth 23/7 of relentless attention, doesn't it?

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The net losses are 4-8mil to the gankers, and the net gains (only T2 gear on my wreck), are probably similar at best. Solo brutixes will fail.



You may join the above chat and ask Clair Bear how it's done. Moreover, in the worst case you get ie 2 miners *I* and they are still 1.6 to 1.9M each.
Since miners buy pre-fitted characters or follow the Halada's guide they tend to fit the suggested shields and they run in excess of 40M a piece.
Odd how those "bits" escaped you.


Zuhlaetah
Posted - 2009.07.07 10:06:00 - [165]
 

Quote:

We've been around this before. The relative difference between me fitted for max yield and me fitted with a DCU II is 150 hours of mining to -catch- up if I lose 1 extra hulk to a gank



And you still don't get it.
There's no relative "better". There's viability or lack thereof.
If you provide a sligthly worse solution (sligthly in the sense you need 1B in implants just to partially negate it...) and that sligthly worse brings you below the thresold that makes the whole effort pointless, then you don't propose a solution. You propose a default.
Less than 9.5M per hour is my thresold, then I AFK earn 35% more than that by sitting in a station (and much more if I don't AFK trade). At this point you are better:

- to retrain the miners for missioning.
- to retrain the miners into trade skills and use them as remote hub alts.

Do I have to explain it in simpler English?

Eve = money and corporations that deliver. Dried up branches get eradicated, not "cushioned" like you suggest.


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If you can see around your box of tissues for 30 seconds



I don't have any tissue, not until I lose ships at least ;P
As I said above I argue on points I disagree, not because of being hit by it.


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Evasive maneuvres is pointless, a hulk will still take too long to go to warp



It's golden when for any reason you drift, it's even more golden when you meet a suicide ganker that will follow you or that will want to go for a gate kill.


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and the AFK 10mil/hr guy in a 175mil fitted ship hasn't caused that at all, noway!



The AFK guy sadly got a sucky and boring game feature (mining). It's why he won't even get "the action".
If you are the one that attacks, you decide every term and your "uptime" or "active play time" is 80%.
The miner's uptime or "active, fun play time" is 5%.

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I BM the belts in a frigate, I land at ideal range to begin



With a 16-25 km landing point off the roids it's debatable wether the quicker frigate will beat going there. You still have to get the frigate in the system and then dock, switch and go off.


Quote:

You chose it. You chose it because it was afk



Yes, and if the terms change, then EITHER the pay rises dramatically or it's quits.
Since the pay won't rise, it's quits, to safe 0.0 (ironic, isn't it?) and / or till the fad ends.


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The more the afk's get hunted down and killed, the more the NON afk choice is meaningful, the better IMHO



Only an irrecuperable ****** would mine and pay attention for hours. I can't believe any sentient being can subject himself to such a torture.


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You've just made 90mil amongst your 4 characters virtually afk. thats not at all unbalanced



It's not like I could not make double of it by AFK missioning or trading.

Quote:

You berate me for training tank skills, and then train nav V



I don't recall what nav level I got, it all came instant and in a neat package called "pre March 10" pilot.


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Thats all good when you land at the belt looking at the screen, but we both know that highsec rocks are small, and the half-yield cycles are common, and it requires a considerable amount of attention to gain much benefit from 3 and 5% yield skill ups



I can't find what I want in super high sec so I go to 0.2 and above up to 0.6-0.7. Roids there tend not to be so bad. I feel "satisfied" having a mining accuracy of about 1/4 cycle (ie overshooting a possibly emptying roid by up to 45s), so the minimum granularity to pay attention lets me do other things in the background.


Zuhlaetah
Posted - 2009.07.07 10:09:00 - [166]
 

Quote:

Either you are part afk and or you aren't gaining full benefit from your extra yield skills or you are NOT afk, or something is doing the micro to get the most benefits from your yield skills for you



If I have to be so desperate to micro more often than every 45 seconds, the activity is not worth it vs its income. Plenty of alternatives to choose off.

Basically, all you get are NOT miners gouging their eyes 23/7 for your nice face, but people doing something else.

I.e. I found it extremely fun and profitable to trade Megacyte bought at 3800 and sold at > 4900.
You are not going to succeed at making someone's life miserable so easily, the game fortunately gives alternatives.

Tauranon
Gallente
Weeesearch
Posted - 2009.07.07 12:05:00 - [167]
 

Originally by: Zuhlaetah
Quote:

You and I both know its still more than possible to gank a freighter in a 0.5



Sure, but it's not for free and requires effort on coordinating a fleet for that and involves in a number of pilots losing security status.


The bar has been set such that the freighter can choose safety or more profits, because they have to align at the point of danger. Not really true for a hulk.

Quote:

1) Actually they buy those pilots indeed and... it does not work.
Why do you think you get so many kill mails about hulk pilots with Gist and even Pith items?
Because they are 1:1 made after Halada's "The Complete Miner's Guide" suggested 0.0 fitting.
The old guide suggested Pith the last Gist.

But wait... people bought those oh-so-0.0 good pilots and they are those who die a lot (and those exact drops continuously linked on SCC-lounge chat).

Hence having bought the 0.0 "rugged" pilot helped to... create a lolmail and that's it.


Who cares how purchasers failfit their failships! Faction gear does not require T2 skills, and does not perform better than T2 unless you have T2 skills.

Quote:

Too bad that you either survive OR die. The DCU contributes for about half of the EHP so removing it makes 1 gank boat killing perfectly possible. Result: you lose the ship AND the 3 x T2 items you paid.
Not to talk how once you rely on shields, there are nice ammo for that, the same ammo used for Indy gate camps (where they know they will be shield tanked).



lol, did you look at the fitting? It has even shield resists. Ammo/weapon type is not a significant factor.

Quote:

Quote:

It requires 2 brutixes, good pilot skills and a cloaked bookmarker, and it requires me to just not go into warp whilst the brutixes are still in invulnerable mode, which I can because I'm aligned.



You talk like 26M for a cov ops you will reuse is something hard. Or that training for Brutix is akin to Battleship V.

Wait, what do those high sec suicide ganker alts pilot, but with higher skill (for T2 weapons)? You guessed it right! Brutixes! It's not _that_ hard or long.



So you lose to a 1v3 in an MMO. How is that unbalanced ?
Quote:

Quote:

and it requires me to just not go into warp whilst the brutixes are still in invulnerable mode, which I can because I'm aligned



And this works only in the case you gouge your eyes on the mining ship 23/7.
I tried what happens when you alt tab to empty the indy GSCs or when you frequently receive an in game mail... 30 seconds spent in another window fly fast and guess how promptly I could warp off?
But hey I suppose your quick fix is to be super-human, never go take a pee, never remove eyes off the screen.
Mining, after all, REALLY earns you so many billions per hour to be worth 23/7 of relentless attention, doesn't it?


Right now in lowsec due to probe-recall and strong cloaky tackle, a mission runner needs to scan every 3 secs to see a combat probe. That is the bar the designers set for attention. In highsec, no gank is going to come cloaked, so you can see the inbound gang on scanner if you set it up carefully and check it every 10 secs. You could in fact be in warp before anything appeared in your belt. Attention = insurance.
Quote:

Quote:

The net losses are 4-8mil to the gankers, and the net gains (only T2 gear on my wreck), are probably similar at best. Solo brutixes will fail.



Since miners buy pre-fitted characters or follow the Halada's guide they tend to fit the suggested shields and they run in excess of 40M a piece.
Odd how those "bits" escaped you.



Again, who cares how a failbuyer fails to fit a ship properly. The 40mil piece is THE WRONG TYPE for highsec. The mechanics should never patch over poor skills and lack of thought, rote cookie cutter builds. Only properly fitted, attentively flown ships deserve to survive. That is EVE.

Tauranon
Gallente
Weeesearch
Posted - 2009.07.07 13:12:00 - [168]
 

Originally by: Zuhlaetah
Quote:

We've been around this before. The relative difference between me fitted for max yield and me fitted with a DCU II is 150 hours of mining to -catch- up if I lose 1 extra hulk to a gank


And you still don't get it.
There's no relative "better". There's viability or lack thereof.
If you provide a sligthly worse solution (sligthly in the sense you need 1B in implants just to partially negate it...) and that sligthly worse brings you below the thresold that makes the whole effort pointless, then you don't propose a solution. You propose a default.
Less than 9.5M per hour is my thresold, then I AFK earn 35% more than that by sitting in a station (and much more if I don't AFK trade). At this point you are better:

- to retrain the miners for missioning.
- to retrain the miners into trade skills and use them as remote hub alts.
Eve = money and corporations that deliver. Dried up branches get eradicated, not "cushioned" like you suggest.


If miners are forced to fit defensively, yields go down, prices go up. If AFK miners get out, then yields go down, prices go up.
Quote:

Quote:

Evasive maneuvres is pointless, a hulk will still take too long to go to warp


It's golden when for any reason you drift, it's even more golden when you meet a suicide ganker that will follow you or that will want to go for a gate kill.


Travelling hulks can fit istabs, cloaks, mwds, use scouts and warp-to-zero like any other fittable ship. Iterons align much faster than any skill/fitting combo fitted to a hulk and still get locked and popped.
Quote:

The AFK guy sadly got a sucky and boring game feature (mining). It's why he won't even get "the action".
If you are the one that attacks, you decide every term and your "uptime" or "active play time" is 80%.
The miner's uptime or "active, fun play time" is 5%.


Ah yes, poor game designer, designing a game for people who aren't there. No way there is a contradiction there.
Quote:

Quote:

I BM the belts in a frigate, I land at ideal range to begin


With a 16-25 km landing point off the roids it's debatable wether the quicker frigate will beat going there. You still have to get the frigate in the system and then dock, switch and go off.


You can BM all the belts (once off investment), and check whether they've been farmed already. You can also make safes quickly, and make MWD safes if you need aligns in particular directions. Just like a pirate might make a 200km BM near a gate. Its standard stuff to scout.
Quote:

Yes, and if the terms change, then EITHER the pay rises dramatically or it's quits.
Since the pay won't rise, it's quits, to safe 0.0 (ironic, isn't it?) and / or till the fad ends.


Pay rate is proportional to its overfarmedness. 4 character afk players mining, are an example of overfarming.
Quote:

Only an irrecuperable ****** would mine and pay attention for hours. I can't believe any sentient being can subject himself to such a torture.


You chose the profession. Fully aware of what it entailed.
Quote:

It's not like I could not make double of it by AFK missioning or trading.


Then do it!!
Quote:
Quote:

You berate me for training tank skills, and then train nav V


I don't recall what nav level I got, it all came instant and in a neat package called "pre March 10" pilot.


You are probably confusing my warp speed (75%) with your max speed.
Quote:

I can't find what I want in super high sec so I go to 0.2 and above up to 0.6-0.7. Roids there tend not to be so bad. I feel "satisfied" having a mining accuracy of about 1/4 cycle (ie overshooting a possibly emptying roid by up to 45s), so the minimum granularity to pay attention lets me do other things in the background.


ie - max yield isn't happening, and thus you are not getting full effect from exhumer V. Which highlights the flaw in your plan.

Tauranon
Gallente
Weeesearch
Posted - 2009.07.07 13:13:00 - [169]
 

Originally by: Zuhlaetah
Quote:

Either you are part afk and or you aren't gaining full benefit from your extra yield skills or you are NOT afk, or something is doing the micro to get the most benefits from your yield skills for you



If I have to be so desperate to micro more often than every 45 seconds, the activity is not worth it vs its income. Plenty of alternatives to choose off.

Basically, all you get are NOT miners gouging their eyes 23/7 for your nice face, but people doing something else.

I.e. I found it extremely fun and profitable to trade Megacyte bought at 3800 and sold at > 4900.
You are not going to succeed at making someone's life miserable so easily, the game fortunately gives alternatives.



I'm a 5.01 sec status character in WH space. You've got the wrong guy.

and yes, you should play to enjoy the game. You don't enjoy mining, and you can make more money doing other things. Why do you do it ?

species2143
Posted - 2009.07.07 16:22:00 - [170]
 

Is anyone actually reading what those two guys are posting? If so please post a TL DR version.

Awesome Possum
Original Sin.
PURPLE HELMETED WARRIORS
Posted - 2009.07.07 17:18:00 - [171]
 

Originally by: species2143
Is anyone actually reading what those two guys are posting? If so please post a TL DR version.


Poster1: Wah nerf suicide ganks because of x,y,z.
Poster2: Wah nerf afk mining because of z,y,x.
Poster1: Wah i hope you die (in game)
Poster2: Wah no you die first (in game)

Erick Odin
Amarr
Local-Spike
Posted - 2009.07.07 18:28:00 - [172]
 

Did I miss something? Is non-consensual PvP banned in 0.0 or allowed in Empire or something?

Zuhlaetah
Posted - 2009.07.08 09:41:00 - [173]
 

Quote:

Who cares how purchasers failfit their failships! Faction gear does not require T2 skills, and does not perform better than T2 unless you have T2 skills.



Again, you bring up an argument (ie making an example of people being good to buy 0.0 trained and fit characters) and then switch to a lateral tangent when replied.
My reply was not about they sucking, but at showing you that even following your suggestion of 0.0 capable training and fitting still fails.


Quote:

lol, did you look at the fitting? It has even shield resists. Ammo/weapon type is not a significant factor.



Again with the tangents. EMP ammo is the most used and effective if you can use it. Removing the MLU makes the choice of the ammo to use a no brainer and *the very resists* are what makes for the EHP. But wait, the EHP is halved by dropping the MLU so having half protection drops you below the "need 2+ gank boats" thresold, which is the only reason to fit that T2 stuff to start with.



Quote:

So you lose to a 1v3 in an MMO. How is that unbalanced ?




You lose to a 1v3 in an MMO, while the attackers spend and risk zero and actually earn free loot.

Added the missing bit.


How is it "EvE style" to have a feature involving no risk and no cost as it's amply repaid with loot?

Not even a gate gun shooting at you, not a chance of defense, no possibility to team up and form a defensive army because in any case the target will go down FAST and the defenders can't open fire or get concorded.
Ample possibility to ferry in an ORCA and use -10 sec pilots (as they describe in the above mentioned chat) and - smartly circumventing the game measures against outlaws - still manage to use PvP ships and kill multiple mining ships in a disco attack with a -10 pilot.

The only EvE style thing I see in this scenario is the attackers once again bypassing the game "rules".

Quote:

Right now in lowsec due to probe-recall and strong cloaky tackle, a mission runner needs to scan every 3 secs to see a combat probe



As the guy who ganked me last time in a low sec mission said me, he can creatively place probes outside scan radius, in fact I could not see them even spamming the scanner.


Quote:

That is the bar the designers set for attention.



... in low sec.

How can you put side by side the same requirements for high sec and low sec like that?

What is the very meaning of the very HIGH sec words, when backwater low sec and 0.0 sec become far easier to survive in due to the ample warning given by seeing a blinky / pirate corp flagged new guy entering in local?


ONCE AGAIN YOU FAIL at getting the B A S I C concept.

Why the fu*k do I go mission in low sec, eh? Because it gives DOUBLE LP, higher pay, less lag and many other reasons.
The pay, why is it double? Because of RISK.

That is, I TRADE risk with PROFIT.


Why the fu*k do I mine in high sec? Because it gives 1/5 of the possible ABC roids income, worse and half chewed roids, worse minerals, possibly clogged with other miners.

The pay, why is it 1/5? Because of LACK of RISK.

That is, I TRADE low risk with vastly LESS profit.


This is simple game balance. The easy stuff gets paid low, the harder stuff gets paid high.

Now, you want to introduce high risk and attention requirements into the paid low activity, which is a nonsense.

As I said in another post, EITHER the whole equation changes and the high sec profits increase 5 fold OR it has no sense to earn 20% of the income while running a comparable high risk to the rich game zones.
Since it'd be unfair for the game to rise high sec mining income 5 fold (there's already L4 missioning doing that, one cheesy high sec job is plenty enough) because low and 0.0 sec people would rebel, then appropriate measures would be needed to take place to enforce that along with low profitability comes low risk.

Zuhlaetah
Posted - 2009.07.08 09:42:00 - [174]
 

Since it'd be unfair for the game to rise high sec mining income 5 fold (there's already L4 missioning doing that, one cheesy high sec job is plenty enough) because low and 0.0 sec people would rebel, then appropriate measures would be needed to take place to enforce that along with low profitability comes low risk.

Or - and once again I said it posts ago - label "high sec" as an outdated, hypocrit definition, remove high sec completely and place suitable high rewards along with the risks.
I am fine with both. Just stop the farce.


Quote:

If miners are forced to fit defensively, yields go down, prices go up. If AFK miners get out, then yields go down, prices go up.



Don't delude yourself, the game is populated by "minerals are free!" idiots. Since ATM I am a trader I have seen them in action few days ago.
Mass bans greatly reduced minerals mining and L4 china farmed loot stopped its relentless flood.
Prices went up indeed. But now, after a week, they are tanking again. The freetards seeing a rise in prices went onto self-slaving themselves 23/7, mined billions of stuff and promptly dumped it at pre-bans prices.

Quote:

Travelling hulks can fit istabs, cloaks, mwds, use scouts and warp-to-zero like any other fittable ship.



Of course, at a belt I see a suicide ganker arriving, I quickly escape to a celestial or gate (because they were the best placed at the belt to align to) and I am supposed to have the ship already istabbed, cloak fitted or MWD fitted.


Quote:

Ah yes, poor game designer, designing a game for people who aren't there. No way there is a contradiction there.



Ah, I got it. You blame the players for making hideous game features that bore them so much they afk it as much as possible. Damn players.

Quote:

Pay rate is proportional to its overfarmedness. 4 character afk players mining, are an example of overfarming



And earning multiple than that with 3 missioneers afk missioning in Dominix or 4 alts used to relist orders every 15 minutes or so is the way to go, instead!


Quote:

You chose the profession. Fully aware of what it entailed



It's not hardwired in my DNA. I chose the profession on a list of terms. If they change, so my choice. None is bound to "contracts" that get changed during the run.
The second I can't ALT TAB mine, there's an host of AFK friendly other professions to pick from.
Basically you confine the worst negative aspects to one profession making it stupid to ever choose it. It's not the way to design a game, CCP learned this the hard way with the early T3 flop.

Quote:

Then do it!!



I did. Since I invested valuable time and money in mining because of different terms, I feel like whining about it though. So?

Quote:

ie - max yield isn't happening, and thus you are not getting full effect from exhumer V. Which highlights the flaw in your plan



Why flaw? Because I miss an average of 22.5 seconds at the last cycle on a 190k low sec or mission (when I need veldspar) roid? If you say so...

Zuhlaetah
Posted - 2009.07.08 09:44:00 - [175]
 

Quote:

You don't enjoy mining, and you can make more money doing other things. Why do you do it ?



I enjoy mining in a corp op a lot, I enjoy setting up a mine operation, I enjoy the fact I can fall back to low attention requiring mode when I am out of an op and alone.

I stop enjoying mining when a team of -10 sec pilot disco battleships circumventing the game mechanics arrive in the middle of said operation and kill multiple ships with ZERO ways to stop them or defend against them.
I also stop enjoying mining when I have to play with unrelenting tension like I was PvPing in Amamake and still earn the lowest income in game.


Quote:

Is anyone actually reading what those two guys are posting? If so please post a TL DR version



I hope no one is so stupid to do so except the intended target.


Quote:

Did I miss something? Is non-consensual PvP banned in 0.0 or allowed in Empire or something?



No, it's just forum PvP.

Al Kickaurazz
Amarr
Megalith Heavy Industries
Posted - 2009.07.08 11:58:00 - [176]
 

Edited by: Al Kickaurazz on 08/07/2009 11:58:14
Anybody got any good Amarr setups to share for suiciding exhumers? Alternatively some info on how much damage needs be done if solo, in small groups etc.. stuff like that?

I am fully capable of using EFT and I allready have suicided 3 exhumers the last 3 days. But it would be nice to share experiences and strategy/setups YARRRR!!

Tauranon
Gallente
Weeesearch
Posted - 2009.07.09 00:14:00 - [177]
 

Originally by: Zuhlaetah
Quote:

Who cares how purchasers failfit their failships! Faction gear does not require T2 skills, and does not perform better than T2 unless you have T2 skills.



Again, you bring up an argument (ie making an example of people being good to buy 0.0 trained and fit characters) and then switch to a lateral tangent when replied.
My reply was not about they sucking, but at showing you that even following your suggestion of 0.0 capable training and fitting still fails.




Ganks succeed, because gankers fit their ships optimally. Your argument is, that you shouldn't have to fit your hulk properly. ie, you want to redefine a fitting failure as a success. It is entirely relevent, in that the ganker/victim equation has to consider optimal fittings for the circumstances of beating concord, and the victim has to consider optimal fittings for the circumstances of surviving till concord jams the gankers. That is not tangential, its the correct rebuttal to your poorly thought out point.

Lastly, the "mystical 0.0 training" you speak of, is 3 weeks of training! Shield mananagement V is not a requirement to get over 16k EHP, and only 2 of the comp skills are even needed, and there is no need to take them even to 4. I haven't yet.

Quote:


Again with the tangents. EMP ammo is the most used and effective if you can use it. Removing the MLU makes the choice of the ammo to use a no brainer and *the very resists* are what makes for the EHP. But wait, the EHP is halved by dropping the MLU so having half protection drops you below the "need 2+ gank boats" thresold, which is the only reason to fit that T2 stuff to start with.



if you fire EM damage ammunition at a shield with 75% EM resistence, its the same net effect as firing kin/therm damage ammunition at a shield with 75% kin/therm resistences. See point about the fitting having omni resistences and understand it! The base shield/armor damage figures on the ammunition are noob guidelines and DON'T DO ANYTHING. This is not a tangent, this is a direct rebuttal to your bad argument. Furthermore, sane brutixes do not fire EMP.

Quote:

Quote:

So you lose to a 1v3 in an MMO. How is that unbalanced ?



You lose to a 1v3 in an MMO, while the attackers spend and risk zero and actually earn free loot.

Added the missing bit.



You earned 30mil/hr accross accounts whilst they hunt for a victim. They earn 0 whilst hunting, and then they only earn when they succeed, and then its a pitiful amount, spread amongst 3 players, unless the hulk pilot fails to fit sensibly. ie the pirates earnings are completely controlled by the hulk pilots.

Quote:

How is it "EvE style" to have a feature involving no risk and no cost as it's amply repaid with loot?

Not even a gate gun shooting at you, not a chance of defense, no possibility to team up and form a defensive army because in any case the target will go down FAST and the defenders can't open fire or get concorded.
Ample possibility to ferry in an ORCA and use -10 sec pilots (as they describe in the above mentioned chat) and - smartly circumventing the game measures against outlaws - still manage to use PvP ships and kill multiple mining ships in a disco attack with a -10 pilot.

The only EvE style thing I see in this scenario is the attackers once again bypassing the game "rules".



A disco BS does less dps than a brutix against an individual target. These attacks only work against untanked ships. Pirates going to the logistical bother of setting up an attack are earning 0until they find someone, and then payouts are completely determined by the stupidity of their victims.

Lastly you will NOT be fired on by a recon in highsec unless its a wartarget, ie you have minimum 20 seconds of ship scanner warning about any incoming gank. You can choose systems and belts to limit false positives, and maximise warning time.

Awesome Possum
Original Sin.
PURPLE HELMETED WARRIORS
Posted - 2009.07.09 00:39:00 - [178]
 

Edited by: Awesome Possum on 09/07/2009 00:39:48
This:

Originally by: Zuhlaetah
I enjoy the fact I can fall back to low attention requiring mode when I am out of an op and alone.


Does not fit with this:

Quote:
I stop enjoying mining when a team of -10 sec pilot disco battleships circumventing the game mechanics arrive in the middle of said operation and kill multiple ships with ZERO ways to stop them or defend against them.
I also stop enjoying mining when I have to play with unrelenting tension like I was PvPing in Amamake and still earn the lowest income in game.


They are not "circumventing the game mechanics", they are easily playing within the mechanics.

You're coming off as nothing but a PVE only whining pissant (in game). Stop fucking whining already (in game), shut your trap (in game), and just die (in game).

G'night (out of game)

p.s. if you're playing this game just for the best isk:risk ratio, you should seriously switch to high sec lvl 4 missions.

When it comes to isk/hour professions, there will always be a bottom pile. Mining just happens to be on the bottom of the totem pole. Do it cause you enjoy it, not cause it'll make you money.

Tauranon
Gallente
Weeesearch
Posted - 2009.07.09 01:06:00 - [179]
 

Originally by: Zuhlaetah
Quote:

Right now in lowsec due to probe-recall and strong cloaky tackle, a mission runner needs to scan every 3 secs to see a combat probe



As the guy who ganked me last time in a low sec mission said me, he can creatively place probes outside scan radius, in fact I could not see them even spamming the scanner.



No he can't. If you are in a deadspace, he won't be able to scan you down with 32au probes. Given how many other game mechanics you understand poorly, its not suprising you misunderstood his explanation.

The issue is that the probes spend 5 seconds in scan range and then return to the ship if you recall right away. He then has all day to place the next set closer to the hit, they only warp when sent to probe. So you have at most 4 x 5 second windows to spot the probes. Its too attentive imho, but thats the way it is.

Quote:

Quote:

That is the bar the designers set for attention.



... in low sec.

How can you put side by side the same requirements for high sec and low sec like that?




Because a ****ing brutix/thorax/detroyer fleet appears on scan for more than 20 seconds when warping inbound to my belt... ie 4 scans per minute = always enough time for aligned ship to warp before the gankboat even finishes warp.

Concord imposes serious costs on anything suiciding that can warp cloaked.
Belt and system selection help further.

Quote:


What is the very meaning of the very HIGH sec words, when backwater low sec and 0.0 sec become far easier to survive in due to the ample warning given by seeing a blinky / pirate corp flagged new guy entering in local?


ONCE AGAIN YOU FAIL at getting the B A S I C concept.



Once again, you fail to understand the safety tools at your disposal.

Quote:

Why the fu*k do I go mission in low sec, eh? Because it gives DOUBLE LP, higher pay, less lag and many other reasons.
The pay, why is it double? Because of RISK.

That is, I TRADE risk with PROFIT.

Why the fu*k do I mine in high sec? Because it gives 1/5 of the possible ABC roids income, worse and half chewed roids, worse minerals, possibly clogged with other miners.

The pay, why is it 1/5? Because of LACK of RISK.

That is, I TRADE low risk with vastly LESS profit.




The tools for survival in highsec ARE much better. You refuse to use them. You appear to be arguing for not low risk, but NO risk, which is off even your own scale. Its conceptually stupid, and allows income to be bound by how many accounts you are willing to alt-tab through.

Quote:


This is simple game balance. The easy stuff gets paid low, the harder stuff gets paid high.

Now, you want to introduce high risk and attention requirements into the paid low activity, which is a nonsense.

As I said in another post, EITHER the whole equation changes and the high sec profits increase 5 fold OR it has no sense to earn 20% of the income while running a comparable high risk to the rich game zones.
Since it'd be unfair for the game to rise high sec mining income 5 fold (there's already L4 missioning doing that, one cheesy high sec job is plenty enough) because low and 0.0 sec people would rebel, then appropriate measures would be needed to take place to enforce that along with low profitability comes low risk.



The requirements have always been there, and 20 seconds > 5 seconds. You can safely ignore a warp-cloaker in highsec, because he won't tackle you unless you are a war target, or you've aggressed him. You cannot ignore a warp-cloaker in lowsec, you must SS, dock or be prepared to fight.

Tauranon
Gallente
Weeesearch
Posted - 2009.07.09 01:34:00 - [180]
 

Originally by: Zuhlaetah

Quote:

Travelling hulks can fit istabs, cloaks, mwds, use scouts and warp-to-zero like any other fittable ship.



Of course, at a belt I see a suicide ganker arriving, I quickly escape to a celestial or gate (because they were the best placed at the belt to align to) and I am supposed to have the ship already istabbed, cloak fitted or MWD fitted.




Way to confuse the point. You've brought evasive man in as a solution to things like gate ganking of a hulk. I pointed out that a travelling hulk has better defences (mwd-cloak trick). At a belt you can be aligned, you have 20 seconds of inbound ganker on scan, and mechanically to BE aligned, you need to have prepared SS's to align at. Celestials will not match the belt orientation for many belts, and if you warp visibly to a ganker on a celestial alignment, you can expect to play a losing game at the celestial because the ganker will also warp to the celestial, and his alignments are faster. Guessing which celestial is something I would expect a pirate to know how to do.

Quote:

Quote:

Ah yes, poor game designer, designing a game for people who aren't there. No way there is a contradiction there.



Ah, I got it. You blame the players for making hideous game features that bore them so much they afk it as much as possible. Damn players.


Some people enjoy mining as is. Other people require AFK isk/hr. I don't personally believe that the designers should spend ANY time on the latter, and I don't believe the latter deserves immunity to PVP. that is not unreasonable.

Quote:

Quote:

Pay rate is proportional to its overfarmedness. 4 character afk players mining, are an example of overfarming



And earning multiple than that with 3 missioneers afk missioning in Dominix or 4 alts used to relist orders every 15 minutes or so is the way to go, instead!



Your utter obsession with isk/hr is at the heart of your angry-bear impersonation. Reminds me of people that jump out of windows when squiggly stockmarket lines don't do what they want them to. AFK dominixes are not invulnerable (especially with a resist hole and loaded up with npc dps, and potentially aggressible drones).

Quote:

It's not hardwired in my DNA. I chose the profession on a list of terms. If they change, so my choice. None is bound to "contracts" that get changed during the run.
The second I can't ALT TAB mine, there's an host of AFK friendly other professions to pick from.
Basically you confine the worst negative aspects to one profession making it stupid to ever choose it. It's not the way to design a game, CCP learned this the hard way with the early T3 flop.


You can alt-tab mine, you just have to accept that you may occasionally be taxed a hulk doing it. Which has always been true, and has never changed.

Quote:

I did. Since I invested valuable time and money in mining because of different terms, I feel like whining about it though. So?



The terms have never changed. Hulks have been ganked since forever.

Quote:

Quote:

ie - max yield isn't happening, and thus you are not getting full effect from exhumer V. Which highlights the flaw in your plan



Why flaw? Because I miss an average of 22.5 seconds at the last cycle on a 190k low sec or mission (when I need veldspar) roid? If you say so...



The reality is, there is nothing wrong with the hulk, its just that it is not -perfectly- safe when used AFK. You could have chosen to reduce the risk of losing it AFK, but instead you've chosen a yield bonus thats only fully accessible when not AFK. ie choosing a practical 2% yield improvement for your intended use, instead of a significant reduction in chance of loss in your intended use, seems like a flaw to me.


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