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Mutnin
Amarr
Mutineers
Posted - 2009.07.10 05:27:00 - [151]
 

Edited by: Mutnin on 10/07/2009 05:27:44
Originally by: JD Barrett
Edited by: JD Barrett on 08/07/2009 16:38:13
wow, after reading 4 pages of this crap
the guy that said that its messed up because the orcas was on the right track but he stopped short.......follow me here.....

back in the day, you remember, when you mined with an apoc :) mining was the way to make money not missions, now you say that "we are comparing mining to misioning" well fine, but think about it like this.....what happens in a market where you have more supply than the demand? the price drops and you start making less profit, keeping up with me so far? good,

mining with apocs, it took forever to strip belts, therefore the supply was less than the demand,right as the market was starting to find its resting place, now you have mining barges, exhumers, rorquals, orcas, frieghters, the problem is the introduced to many mining ships to close together ,whats that going to do? hmmm? its so easy to strip a belt now huh? thus huge supplies of minerals so the demand is going down, therefor the price is droping therefor the profit is droping. now eventualy it will even back out, but its going to take time (around a year or 2[baring they introduce anymore maining ships or moduals])

now yes you are right missions make entirely too much isk i mean jesus 50m+ an hour conserving? wow....

i'd say it should be somewhere around 30m for level 4's, that would bring it on par, and yes making 30m an hour mining is not that hard, it is harder than missions but people you have to remember the bigger picture, the more people out there trying to make money mining, the less profit every sigle miner is going to get, and let me tell you right now macro miners are not helping that...why don't you all band together and instead of talking about how the profession is messed up because you cant make any money anymore, but constructive....

open up a petition for all miners to sign try to get it out that you are done putting up with macro miners in eve online, you already have one thing going for you... china officially banned gold farming(i think that covers isk), so hey, thats a start.

but as another poster stated, there are plenty of ways that you can stop macro miners, ccp just will not do it...make them as the players, gt enough players to sign, its a start...instead of whineing (which they will never listen to) be constructive, in the petition have a way (or several) to stop macros....

good luck, and for all the trolls out there

flame away at my spelling, or word wall, or, ZoMg you dont know what your talking about ZomG, i have not been here from 03 or beta, but i have been here for quite some time (june of 2004)


You are missing a Important point in your logic. Mission runners get loot drops that in large get reprocessed and compete with miners for ore.

So yes while you might be "somewhat" on track with the idea of it being much easier to mine these days well Miners are now also in direct competition with mission runners for minerals. Not to mention the Done regions.

IMO what should be nerfed on missions is the loot drops because it's been shown before that most of the minerals on the market come from mission loot drops.

Kerfira
Kerfira Corp
Posted - 2009.07.10 07:42:00 - [152]
 

Originally by: Mutnin
You are missing a Important point in your logic. Mission runners get loot drops that in large get reprocessed and compete with miners for ore.

A good mission runner gets about 2/3 of the minerals an optimal Hulk pilot does in high-sec (based on value, not composition).
That is about 20% of what he makes total, with the other 80% being Salvage, Bounties, Rewards and LP.
Originally by: Mutnin
IMO what should be nerfed on missions is the loot drops because it's been shown before that most of the minerals on the market come from mission loot drops.

I agree. The best thing to do would be to remove all basic T1 loot from the mission loot. The named items are not a big problem as they're fewer, and doesn't normally reprocess well.

Albert O'Balsam
Posted - 2009.07.10 09:14:00 - [153]
 

Edited by: Albert O''Balsam on 10/07/2009 09:26:17
IMHO It has been clear for some time that the balance of available ore doesnt balance well to the mineral requirements in the BP's. Hence huge price drops in the mid range mineral prices (which are just too easy to get hold of) and the huge increases in the low end prices (where BP requirements are simply too high), while the high end have stayed sort of static for some time now.

Should prices be left to find their own levels? Should something be done to alter the mineral levels on BPs? TBCH I am not sure the markets could stand any real shake up but I think some new technology being introduced that for example improved the mining rate of veld and scord certainly wouldn't hurt the ship producers. And such a device/ship certainly would not unbalance the income to be had from mining which the OP so thourougly outlined as being not high enough to compete with other professions.

The Orca and Rorqual have helped - but such little increases to mining ammount make these simply token efforts.

EDIT* And as an afterthought which is completely off the wall. Assuming supply and demand for minerals is about right, barring fluctuations, How about giving miners a "bounty" for each roid popped as a reward for keeping the "space lanes" clear of debris? This could easily bring miners income up to any level you wanted to set it at without affecting the markets at all.

Jabezhane
Posted - 2009.07.10 17:11:00 - [154]
 

As I said before, the Orca is the problem.

Before Orca - Plenty of Veld, plenty of belts, plenty of effort needed, plenty to do for mining ops and solo folks.

After Orca - No veld, not many worthwhile belts, no effort needed, nothing for solo folks and a real pain scouting for decent belts for your gangs to work on.

I couldnt believe what it was like to do a mining op with an orca pushing the bonuses. It really was just taking the p*ss. Its a farce.

Get rid of the Orcas (say there is a major flaw in their reactor and you get a market value refund) and then things can get back to normal.

Spurty
Caldari
V0LTA
VOLTA Corp
Posted - 2009.07.10 17:13:00 - [155]
 

/me picks up pitch fork and Torch and goes marching into the woods screaming "Down with ORCAs and GOBLINS!"


Malcanis
Caldari
Vanishing Point.
The Initiative.
Posted - 2009.07.10 17:21:00 - [156]
 

Originally by: Kerfira
Originally by: Mutnin
You are missing a Important point in your logic. Mission runners get loot drops that in large get reprocessed and compete with miners for ore.

A good mission runner gets about 2/3 of the minerals an optimal Hulk pilot does in high-sec (based on value, not composition).
That is about 20% of what he makes total, with the other 80% being Salvage, Bounties, Rewards and LP.
Originally by: Mutnin
IMO what should be nerfed on missions is the loot drops because it's been shown before that most of the minerals on the market come from mission loot drops.

I agree. The best thing to do would be to remove all basic T1 loot from the mission loot. The named items are not a big problem as they're fewer, and doesn't normally reprocess well.



Replace named loot with BPCs for the same items. Easier to loot, and will further boost mineral demand.

Kerfira
Kerfira Corp
Posted - 2009.07.10 17:29:00 - [157]
 

Originally by: Malcanis
Originally by: Kerfira
My post

Replace named loot with BPCs for the same items. Easier to loot, and will further boost mineral demand.

That's a pretty damn good idea actually! The only RP thing wrong with it is that 'loot' is normally items the NPC ship was supposedly equipped with (we all know this isn't true, but...).

Bibbleibble
Posted - 2009.07.10 18:01:00 - [158]
 

Originally by: Kerfira
Originally by: Malcanis
Originally by: Kerfira
My post

Replace named loot with BPCs for the same items. Easier to loot, and will further boost mineral demand.

That's a pretty damn good idea actually! The only RP thing wrong with it is that 'loot' is normally items the NPC ship was supposedly equipped with (we all know this isn't true, but...).



How about 'broken' (or whatever) modules that need a t1 equivalent to fix and make ready to use. That make missions a bit more dependent on mining, and increase mineral demand.

Mutnin
Amarr
Mutineers
Posted - 2009.07.10 19:21:00 - [159]
 

Edited by: Mutnin on 10/07/2009 19:22:45
Originally by: Kerfira
Originally by: Mutnin
You are missing a Important point in your logic. Mission runners get loot drops that in large get reprocessed and compete with miners for ore.

A good mission runner gets about 2/3 of the minerals an optimal Hulk pilot does in high-sec (based on value, not composition).
That is about 20% of what he makes total, with the other 80% being Salvage, Bounties, Rewards and LP.
Originally by: Mutnin
IMO what should be nerfed on missions is the loot drops because it's been shown before that most of the minerals on the market come from mission loot drops.

I agree. The best thing to do would be to remove all basic T1 loot from the mission loot. The named items are not a big problem as they're fewer, and doesn't normally reprocess well.



You have to look at the "big picture" to see why it's a problem. You can't just single out what one mission runner makes and say it's not enough to cause this issue.

Look one page back in this topic to what "Mac Maniac" posted as to the stats of where the minerals are coming from. Out of the 8 common minerals there is only "1", Morphite that miners produce the most of.

All other minerals the miners are out produced by Mission/Runners & Drone regions. It's very easy to see the the problem isn't due to too many miners or too many mining ships as others have said, but rather the loot drops are quite simply providing more minerals and are direct competition to miners.

Miners simply can't compete with the missions.


Originally by: Mac Maniac
This was the one month split for all items reprocessed measured mid-august to mid-september 2008 per CCP.

|| Mineral || Ore% || Loot% || Drone Compounds% ||
||-----------||------||-------||------------------||
|| Tritanium || 46% || 43% || 11% ||
|| Pyerite || 29% || 60% || 10% ||
|| Mexallon || 30% || 59% || 11% ||
|| Isogen || 21% || 56% || 23% ||
|| Nocxium || 18% || 32% || 51% ||
|| Zydrine || 43% || 18% || 40% ||
|| Megacyte || 44% || 39% || 16% ||
|| Morphite || 77% || 1% || 22% ||

* Ore is minerals from the asteroid ores
* loot is modules, ships, charges, drones for example.
* drone compounds are loot items from rogue drones


Mutnin
Amarr
Mutineers
Posted - 2009.07.10 19:23:00 - [160]
 

Edited by: Mutnin on 10/07/2009 19:24:28

Originally by: Jabezhane
As I said before, the Orca is the problem.

Before Orca - Plenty of Veld, plenty of belts, plenty of effort needed, plenty to do for mining ops and solo folks.

After Orca - No veld, not many worthwhile belts, no effort needed, nothing for solo folks and a real pain scouting for decent belts for your gangs to work on.

I couldnt believe what it was like to do a mining op with an orca pushing the bonuses. It really was just taking the p*ss. Its a farce.

Get rid of the Orcas (say there is a major flaw in their reactor and you get a market value refund) and then things can get back to normal.


You need to read what I just posted above the Orca is "NOT" the problem. This isn't a "Because of Orca" issue..

northwesten
Amarr
Trinity Corporate Services
Terran United Federation
Posted - 2009.07.10 19:25:00 - [161]
 

Originally by: Mutnin


Miners simply can't compete with the missions.




As a Heavy Miner my self I don't have a problem! So this just rubbish!

Mutnin
Amarr
Mutineers
Posted - 2009.07.10 19:28:00 - [162]
 

Originally by: Malcanis

Replace named loot with BPCs for the same items. Easier to loot, and will further boost mineral demand.


But then to save one market you kill another. Many people put a lot of ISK into BPO's and this would pull the market right out from under them.

The solution, is to lower the loot drops in both the drone regions and missions/rats. However it would have to be done gradually as it not have a severe affect on the market.

Mutnin
Amarr
Mutineers
Posted - 2009.07.10 19:30:00 - [163]
 

Edited by: Mutnin on 10/07/2009 19:31:03

Originally by: northwesten
Originally by: Mutnin


Miners simply can't compete with the missions.




As a Heavy Miner my self I don't have a problem! So this just rubbish!


I mine as well and you are missing the big picture. It's not what "you" can produce vs what one single mission runner produces. It's the sum value of all that is produced for the whole.

Mission Runners/Ratters/Drone regions out produce miners in minerals in a big way. Probably by 10 to 20% total.

Kerfira
Kerfira Corp
Posted - 2009.07.10 20:07:00 - [164]
 

Originally by: northwesten
Originally by: Mutnin
Miners simply can't compete with the missions.

As a Heavy Miner my self I don't have a problem! So this just rubbish!

I 'mine' with my Golem's missiles and my Drake's tractor beams about 2/3 of what you can do in a perfect Hulk in high-sec (counted by value, not composition).
I get 4 times the value of those minerals in Reward/Bounties/Salvage/LP on top of that (and I'm not even counting any valuable named items in the loot).

Do you see why so big a part of generated minerals come from missions, and why mining can't compete???

LuckyQuarter
Gallente
Lucky Galactic Expeditions
Posted - 2009.07.10 20:20:00 - [165]
 

I don't see why CCP can't just gradually remove all loot from wrecks, except for those items required for economy to run or missions to finish. If missioner revenue gets hit too much, they can always increase the value of agent payouts or the success rate for salvaging. If an item can be produced from a BPO, and the bpo's are appropriately seeded, then the items should be entirely player built.

Mutnin
Amarr
Mutineers
Posted - 2009.07.10 20:28:00 - [166]
 

Edited by: Mutnin on 10/07/2009 20:30:08
Originally by: Kerfira
Originally by: northwesten
Originally by: Mutnin
Miners simply can't compete with the missions.

As a Heavy Miner my self I don't have a problem! So this just rubbish!

I 'mine' with my Golem's missiles and my Drake's tractor beams about 2/3 of what you can do in a perfect Hulk in high-sec (counted by value, not composition).
I get 4 times the value of those minerals in Reward/Bounties/Salvage/LP on top of that (and I'm not even counting any valuable named items in the loot).

Do you see why so big a part of generated minerals come from missions, and why mining can't compete???



I think we know "why" people do missions over mining.. The argument is that missions shouldn't be competing with the miners for minerals being they already pay out in ISK, LP points and salvage. You stated it yourself..

I get 4 times the value of those minerals in Reward/Bounties/Salvage/LP on top of that (and I'm not even counting any valuable named items in the loot).

Lower the loot drops and it would stop making miners compete with the Mission Runner/Ratters.


BARF CHUNK
Posted - 2009.07.10 20:44:00 - [167]
 

Quote:

Lower the loot drops and it would stop making miners compete with the Mission Runner/Ratters.



Indeed.
There's already plenty of other perks to missioning.

Jabezhane
Posted - 2009.07.10 21:29:00 - [168]
 

Originally by: Mutnin

You need to read what I just posted above the Orca is "NOT" the problem. This isn't a "Because of Orca" issue..



Well I reckon it is. I dont remember many of these types of post before the Orca was introduced. Now its all "oh my its soo hard for us miners..there are no belts but all those mission people are doing so well now!"

Mining has just got too efficient. Needs a ner.......Twisted Evil

Trathen
Minmatar
Posted - 2009.07.10 21:52:00 - [169]
 

The easiest "fix" really would be just to limit mission loot to Meta 2-4 items.

Mutnin
Amarr
Mutineers
Posted - 2009.07.10 22:32:00 - [170]
 

Edited by: Mutnin on 10/07/2009 22:32:19
Originally by: Jabezhane
Originally by: Mutnin

You need to read what I just posted above the Orca is "NOT" the problem. This isn't a "Because of Orca" issue..



Well I reckon it is. I dont remember many of these types of post before the Orca was introduced. Now its all "oh my its soo hard for us miners..there are no belts but all those mission people are doing so well now!"

Mining has just got too efficient. Needs a ner.......Twisted Evil


I assume you are just being a troll, because if you look at the stats that were provided by "CCP" you can clearly see that loot drops and the drone regions put more minerals on the market than mining. Hence making "Because of Orca" not even an issue.

Kerfira
Kerfira Corp
Posted - 2009.07.11 07:59:00 - [171]
 

Originally by: Mutnin
Originally by: Kerfira
My post

I think we know "why" people do missions over mining.. The argument is that missions shouldn't be competing with the miners for minerals being they already pay out in ISK, LP points and salvage. You stated it yourself..

I get 4 times the value of those minerals in Reward/Bounties/Salvage/LP on top of that (and I'm not even counting any valuable named items in the loot).

Lower the loot drops and it would stop making miners compete with the Mission Runner/Ratters.

I don't disagree in the slightest Laughing

In fact, I also think that NPC tanking/dps in L4's and maybe L3's should be increased by a fair amount.

Mara Rinn
Posted - 2009.07.11 08:39:00 - [172]
 

Originally by: Booken Blue
If you mine for high profits you're mining for the wrong reasons.

Hint: Ship Building.


If you mine for minerals because you believe that the minerals you mine yourself are free, you're mining for the wrong reasons.

Hint: Opportunity Cost.

What else could you be doing with your time that makes you more money than the minerals are worth, so you could just buy the minerals and still make a profit?

Edarti
Posted - 2009.07.11 09:41:00 - [173]
 

HI Sec missioning - 20 mil - 40 mil per hour
Hi Sec mining - 10 mil per hour (more like 8)

Risk for both? The same, none. Effort level? The same.

Got to change , imo. A character who trains for missioning can also PvP. A character who trains for mining, those skills are only used for, well, mining.

I have both mining and missioning characters. My mining char earns nothing compared to my mission char. At the same time my mission char I also use for PvP. My mining char just sits there really.

Kerfira
Kerfira Corp
Posted - 2009.07.11 10:19:00 - [174]
 

Originally by: Edarti
HI Sec missioning - 20 mil - 40 mil per hour
Hi Sec mining - 10 mil per hour (more like 8)

Risk for both? The same, none. Effort level? The same.

To be honest, given the ease of which a Hulk or any other mining barge can be suicide ganked, and the fact that you generally don't have to scan them down first, I think the risk is significantly higher for the miner.

Jabezhane
Posted - 2009.07.11 11:48:00 - [175]
 

Originally by: Mutnin

I assume you are just being a troll, because if you look at the stats that were provided by "CCP" you can clearly see that loot drops and the drone regions put more minerals on the market than mining. Hence making "Because of Orca" not even an issue.


I love how if anyone has a differing opinion (after all thats all it is) and you cant turn them round to your way of thinking then they are automatically a 'troll'. How convenient.

No its simply a case of we must agree to disagree.




Imertu Solientai
Gallente
Posted - 2009.07.11 12:45:00 - [176]
 

I love how many mission runners are swarming to this thread just to try and assert that their professions is completely balanced and that everyone should stop crying. I do enjoy watching the pattern of people who are exploiting an overpowered mechanic to their advantage insisting that they are the hard-done-to ones... again.

Edarti
Posted - 2009.07.11 12:47:00 - [177]
 

Originally by: Jabezhane
Originally by: Mutnin

I assume you are just being a troll, because if you look at the stats that were provided by "CCP" you can clearly see that loot drops and the drone regions put more minerals on the market than mining. Hence making "Because of Orca" not even an issue.


I love how if anyone has a differing opinion (after all thats all it is) and you cant turn them round to your way of thinking then they are automatically a 'troll'. How convenient.

No its simply a case of we must agree to disagree.






What he is trying to say is, given CCP official statistics, your viewpoint is entirely undermined.

Havohej
Du'uma Fiisi Integrated Astrometrics
Posted - 2009.07.11 12:51:00 - [178]
 

Originally by: Kerfira
'loot' is normally items the NPC ship was supposedly equipped with (we all know this isn't true, but...).



Gistii Raider's Dramiel was equipped with the following:

[Dramiel, Gistii Raider]
50mm Reinforced Crystalline Carbonide Plates I
Sigma-Nought Tracking Mode I
Gyrostabilizer I

Monopropellant I Hydrazine Boosters
Warp Disruptor I

Miner I
Miner I

'Limos' Rocket Launcher I, Phalanx Rocket
'Limos' Rocket Launcher I, Phalanx Rocket
'Limos' Rocket Launcher I, Phalanx Rocket


Laughing

Kyra Felann
Gallente
The Scope
Posted - 2009.07.11 14:36:00 - [179]
 

Edited by: Kyra Felann on 11/07/2009 14:40:43
Originally by: Mara Rinn
If you mine for minerals because you believe that the minerals you mine yourself are free, you're mining for the wrong reasons.

Hint: Opportunity Cost.

What else could you be doing with your time that makes you more money than the minerals are worth, so you could just buy the minerals and still make a profit?


If this were a real-life job or business venture and not a game that I play for fun, that'd be true.

But it's not--it's a game that I play for fun. I'd rather do something fun that makes less money per hour than something I hate (missions) and make more money per hour. I'm saying this in general, not that I necessarily find mining to be loads of fun.

EDIT: Nor am I saying that mined minerals should be considered "free" in profit calculations.

Bluddwolf
Seventh Exploration and Engagement Command
Posted - 2009.07.11 14:59:00 - [180]
 

I always thought, and still do, that mining is overshadowed by looting and salvaging.

I used to have a main with max skills in mining and he could average between 15 - 22 mil isk worth of ore in 2 - 3 hours. This of course depended on the ore and sec level of system. In low sec systems usually had 3-4 pilots with me.

Same group of pilots, running high sec lvl 4's and looting and salvaging everything. More isk and lower risk, in same or less time.


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