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Kendra Coldera
The Ankou
Raiden.
Posted - 2010.08.23 11:52:00 - [1891]
 

Is there still room for a new shareholder?

From the numbers I assume it is full, but in case there is some (small) amount left I would like to get in with 200 shares.

Titans 4U
Titans For You
Posted - 2010.08.23 12:30:00 - [1892]
 

The story so far...
Originally by: Bad Bobby
Existing Shareholder Reservations

10,000 Bad Bobby
10,400 Emmgel
1,000 Kithran
2,000 max ikabon
8,000 Jadun
4,500 AnthonyKiedis
5,000 Ji Sama
2,001 Phoebe Halliwel
600 Xi Khan
5,000 Lord Schmock
5,000 Marbo Slyder
1,000 jwingenderowns
1,000 Morrow Borric
1,000 GX307
4,000 Norah Sin
300 Banque
600 Bert Rebus
5,000 Amarr Citizen 155
300 Marijke Mcneely
450 Zilkin
1000 Gagarthoe III
7,000 Kapila Parthalan
2,000 Onyth
4,000 Trayjan
1,900 Biff Hanran
200 Jovan Geldon
1,000 Jeddeita
2,000 Pierced Brosmen
500 Captain Siria
1,000 Kell Braugh
1,000 Sandrane Kipler
10,000 Dalden V
3,000 Miyuki Suzumiya
4,000 Philip Ogtaulmolfi

Total: 105,751 of 108,000

New Shareholder Reservations

200 Teura
200 Vrikaan Phoenix
20,000 mental maverick
2,000 danyalsun
200 Kendra Coldera

Total: 22,600

Nexo92
Death Incarnate INC
Posted - 2010.08.23 12:54:00 - [1893]
 

Voted Yes and would like to reserve 200 shares please

Quadrantid
Posted - 2010.08.23 13:02:00 - [1894]
 

Originally by: Bad Bobby
Attention Shareholders!

I will start a three day shareholder vote for the creation of 108,000 shares.

Vote YES if you want the expansion to go ahead.

Vote NO if you do not want the expansion to go ahead.

As before, if the vote passes I will be allowing existing shareholders one week to purchase shares before they are made available to new investors.



Minor shareholder here, and lacking in current liquidity :S

That said, I'd like to vote yes for this, and also reserve a meagre 100 million ISK's worth of shares.

I know it isn't much, but all I have at the moment!

Archielaus
Caldari
Spawns of Thanatos
Posted - 2010.08.23 13:41:00 - [1895]
 

I would like to reserve 250 shares if there is still room for existing shareholders

Anastasia Heron
Amarr
Ricercar Astral Research
Posted - 2010.08.23 15:05:00 - [1896]
 

Existing Shareholder looking to reserve another 2,000 shares if available, or all available shares otherwise. Thanks!

mental maverick
Percussive Diplomacy
Posted - 2010.08.23 15:13:00 - [1897]
 

Edited by: mental maverick on 23/08/2010 15:14:17
well, looks like there wont be any new shareholders this time around... Crying or Very sad

greedy ****in inbreds, Laughing

Quetazal
Gallente
Clann Fian
Narwhals Ate My Duck
Posted - 2010.08.23 15:45:00 - [1898]
 

existing shareholder: 200 shares if there are any left please

Titans 4U
Titans For You
Posted - 2010.08.23 15:51:00 - [1899]
 

That's the lot reserved, but please feel free to make further reservations in case someone withdraws theirs.

Originally by: Bad Bobby

Existing Shareholder Reservations

10,000 Bad Bobby
10,400 Emmgel
1,000 Kithran
2,000 max ikabon
8,000 Jadun
4,500 AnthonyKiedis
5,000 Ji Sama
2,001 Phoebe Halliwel
600 Xi Khan
5,000 Lord Schmock
5,000 Marbo Slyder
1,000 jwingenderowns
1,000 Morrow Borric
1,000 GX307
4,000 Norah Sin
300 Banque
600 Bert Rebus
5,000 Amarr Citizen 155
300 Marijke Mcneely
450 Zilkin
1000 Gagarthoe III
7,000 Kapila Parthalan
2,000 Onyth
4,000 Trayjan
1,900 Biff Hanran
200 Jovan Geldon
1,000 Jeddeita
2,000 Pierced Brosmen
500 Captain Siria
1,000 Kell Braugh
1,000 Sandrane Kipler
10,000 Dalden V
3,000 Miyuki Suzumiya
4,000 Philip Ogtaulmolfi
200 Nexo92
100 Quadrantid
250 Archielaus
2,000 Anastasia Heron
200 Quetazal

Total: 108,501 of 108,000

New Shareholder Reservations

200 Teura
200 Vrikaan Phoenix
20,000 mental maverick
2,000 danyalsun
200 Kendra Coldera

Total: 22,600


Molten Platypii
Minmatar
Viduus Solus
Posted - 2010.08.23 17:56:00 - [1900]
 

Existing shareholder. Would like to reserve 200 shares if expansion passes.


Emmgel
Posted - 2010.08.23 18:08:00 - [1901]
 

When do you want the ISK Bobby?

Emmgel

Apachekills
Gallente
Lost-Souls.
Posted - 2010.08.23 18:36:00 - [1902]
 

existing shareholder, will take 500 if another passes

Kell Braugh
Dawn of a new Empire
The Initiative.
Posted - 2010.08.23 18:49:00 - [1903]
 

Originally by: Bad Bobby

We are increasing the size of Titans For You by 32%, but I don't see where you are getting a 63% value dilution from. Could you explain how you came to that figure?


You are creating new shares outside of a stock split, so that dilutes the value of existing stock as far as current stockholders are concerned. This creates 2 issues.

1) Current trading price of T4U stocks is around 1.25-1.3mil +/-, you are artificially lowering it 1mil.
You are also making it so any current stockholder, for whatever reason, that doesn't buy at least 1.58 "new" stocks for every stock they currently own will in effect have their stock holding position loose value (as a percentage of the companies entire public holdings).

2)This is not withstanding dividends which will lower 63% as the new stock is issued and begins to receive payments for investments that the new stocks really didn't make.

The 63% comes from the fact you are increasing the total amount of stock by 108k.

I'm not arguing the value of investment, only that it is being done in such a way that you are, on a per stock level, increasing the value of the company by 32 while costing your current stockholders ~21% (~1.27mil vs 1mil a share) of their current stock's value and 63% of their potential future dividends-- its a hard pill to swallow.

If you wish to make a new investment, fine. But please do it through a corporate bond, not on the backs of your current shareholders.

Ji Sama
Caldari
Tash-Murkon Prime Industries
Posted - 2010.08.23 19:07:00 - [1904]
 

Shocked

People can just vote no, if they think share value is diluted, I personally do not see it that way, since we are increasing NAV with another titan BPO, therefore atleast based on NAV value, your shares are still worth 1 million each, now if you bought at a higher price, well that is simply your problem!

Cayce Pollard
Posted - 2010.08.23 19:11:00 - [1905]
 

existing shareholder would like to reserve 1000 shares if someone drops out

Trebor Whettam
Posted - 2010.08.23 19:28:00 - [1906]
 

Edited by: Trebor Whettam on 23/08/2010 19:30:23
Edited by: Trebor Whettam on 23/08/2010 19:29:26
Originally by: Kell Braugh
Originally by: Bad Bobby

We are increasing the size of Titans For You by 32%, but I don't see where you are getting a 63% value dilution from. Could you explain how you came to that figure?


You are creating new shares outside of a stock split, so that dilutes the value of existing stock as far as current stockholders are concerned. This creates 2 issues.

1) Current trading price of T4U stocks is around 1.25-1.3mil +/-, you are artificially lowering it 1mil.
You are also making it so any current stockholder, for whatever reason, that doesn't buy at least 1.58 "new" stocks for every stock they currently own will in effect have their stock holding position loose value (as a percentage of the companies entire public holdings).

2)This is not withstanding dividends which will lower 63% as the new stock is issued and begins to receive payments for investments that the new stocks really didn't make.

The 63% comes from the fact you are increasing the total amount of stock by 108k.

I'm not arguing the value of investment, only that it is being done in such a way that you are, on a per stock level, increasing the value of the company by 32 while costing your current stockholders ~21% (~1.27mil vs 1mil a share) of their current stock's value and 63% of their potential future dividends-- its a hard pill to swallow.

If you wish to make a new investment, fine. But please do it through a corporate bond, not on the backs of your current shareholders.



These are excellent points, and #2 really high-lights the issue. Until the BPOs purchased with the expansion money are primed, stagnant revenues will be distributed to a greater number of shares. This punishes investors who don't reup for a proportional number of new shares. It makes much more sense to raise the new funds through a new bond.

The issue is caused by the unavoidable lag in initial profits, which is a sort of one-time cost, except that this expansion would apply the lag a second time to the original shares and only partially once to the new shares.

Estel Arador
Posted - 2010.08.23 19:44:00 - [1907]
 

Edited by: Estel Arador on 23/08/2010 20:01:03
Originally by: Kell Braugh
The 63% comes from the fact you are increasing the total amount of stock by 108k.
(...)
and 63% of their potential future dividends-- its a hard pill to swallow.


Walk me through this, because I don't get it.

I own 3 shares in T4U. With the current 342000 existing shares, I get 88k isk from a 10B dividend. After the expansion, with 450000 shares, I'll get 67k isk from a 10B dividend. By my count that's a 24% decrease in dividends (which makes sense after 32% expansion, given that 100 is 76% of 132).


(Edit: fixed a typo in a number, was missing a '0')

Claire Voyant
Posted - 2010.08.23 19:52:00 - [1908]
 

I'm not a shareholder and haven't even been following this thread, but it occurred to me that if the concern about share dilution was a serious one, you could offer new shares to the current shareholders in proportion to their current holdings. So if the number of shares were being increased by 25%, someone with 1000 shares would have the right to buy 250 more shares. If they choose not to exercise that right, the excess shares could be offered to the other shareholders first before being offered to the public.

Implementation of this might seem overly complicated, but it seems to me that you could achieve the same effect with the current reservation system. All you would have to do is compare the reservation list with the current shareholdings and instead of cutting it off on a first-come-first-serve basis you should find the cut-off ratio that distributes the appropriate number of shares. In other words, a small shareholder that places a disproportionately large reservation may find his reservation trimmed somewhat.

Of course changing the rules in the middle of the process might not be a good idea, but it could be a viable option of the current vote fails. In fact, shareholders that wanted to get reservations in but didn't do so in time might consider voting against the current proposal in hopes of a second vote under changed rules . . .

. . . or not. As I say, I have no horse in this race and I'm only offering my unsolicited opinion for what it is worth.

Ji Sama
Caldari
Tash-Murkon Prime Industries
Posted - 2010.08.23 19:55:00 - [1909]
 

only valid point as I see it is number 2.

and since some of us where with this from the start, we are now seeing new investors get in, and almost immediately they get a dividend vs. the almost 1 year most of us there was with this from the start had to wait.

but if anyone have a problem with it, simply use their shares to vote!

Zamestian Han
Posted - 2010.08.23 19:57:00 - [1910]
 

Edited by: Zamestian Han on 23/08/2010 19:59:14
I'd like to reserve 6b please

Edit: Existing shareholder...

Kell Braugh
Dawn of a new Empire
The Initiative.
Posted - 2010.08.23 20:05:00 - [1911]
 

Edited by: Kell Braugh on 23/08/2010 20:09:23
Edited by: Kell Braugh on 23/08/2010 20:06:57
Originally by: Estel Arador
With the current 342000 existing shares... After the expansion, with 45000 shares


Currently: 68,000 Shares
Post proposed expansion: 176,000 shares
Those are the numbers attached to reality that I am using.

What should happen, and furthermore what happens irl when this situation comes up is one of two avenues.

- Either a new corporate bond is issued, outside of the shareholders so as to not upset and devalue stock, or

- A split is issued to shore up per old share value against the new shares and money is raised when company owned stock is then sold. Most the time though, companies don't want to devalue holdings in their own company, so they go the bond route.

My underlying question is why choose this route (creation of more shares) when you could easily issue and fill a new bond under the Titans for you banner without upsetting dividends or stock price. [edit: even if you decide to suspend dividends till the bond is payed back]


edit: Using the "some of us were in it from the start" is the same logic road that "minerals are free because I mined them myself" uses-- I suggest you tread lightly.

Ji Sama
Caldari
Tash-Murkon Prime Industries
Posted - 2010.08.23 20:19:00 - [1912]
 

Edited by: Ji Sama on 23/08/2010 20:19:59
You are so wrong, first of the argument that some of us was with this from the start isn't even close to the phrase; minerals I mine is free.
I was actually agreeing with your point 2! But you are for some reason taking all of this personal!

Secondly Estels numbers are spot on, we have 342K shares, and with the 108K expansion we have 450K!

Don't know where you got your numbers from, I am guessing the same place you found the correlation between, minerals I mine is free vs. I have been here since the beginning.


EDIT: WTB YOUR SHARES 1M P/U



cosmoray
Perkone
Posted - 2010.08.23 20:28:00 - [1913]
 

Director Update

I kind of forgot about T4U and the fact I had a director in the corp.
I have deleted all my admin characters and closed all but 1 of my accounts (my main one).

I no longer have a director in T4U or have any BOD shares in T4U.
I can no longer perform any lockdown/unlock votes for T4U. My understanding is that there are currently 5 directors (one was Kazzac who barely plays). I would advise finding another director to replace me.

Due to my limited time in game I won't be able to put a character in T4U or have any dealings with T4U if issues arise. I have also removed some roles in other corporations and declined a few directorships/BOD requests recently.



This post isn't meant to stir up trouble or worry investors it's just that I forgot all about it.

Kell Braugh
Dawn of a new Empire
The Initiative.
Posted - 2010.08.23 20:36:00 - [1914]
 

Originally by: Ji Sama

You are so wrong...But you are for some reason taking all of this personal!


Unlike *some*, i'm not taking this to a personal level. This is a game after all.

Its in the same fold as "mined minerals are free" because you are putting zero value on the time your investment has been in, just like miners who put zero value into their own time. Your original investment could have been doing other things, just like the miners could have been doing other things with their time to make money.

Lastly, my stock numbers are based on the publicly available stock information for 'titans for you'. As this is game, I will admit I don't spend hours and hour pouring over the various IPO submissions.

Originally by: Ji Sama
EDIT: WTB YOUR SHARES 1M P/U

This must just be more of your "not taking it personal" so I'll have to pass.

Emmgel
Posted - 2010.08.23 20:48:00 - [1915]
 

Per previous discussion however many posts back when Cosmo assumed the role, am happy to assist in such capacity, qualification being largely based on share ownership, if needed/wanted.

Emmgel

Estel Arador
Posted - 2010.08.23 21:07:00 - [1916]
 

Edited by: Estel Arador on 23/08/2010 21:10:18
Originally by: Kell Braugh
Originally by: Estel Arador
With the current 342000 existing shares... After the expansion, with 45000 shares


Currently: 68,000 Shares
Post proposed expansion: 176,000 shares
Those are the numbers attached to reality that I am using.



Those numbers are incorrect. The ingame corp details only show how many shares were created in the last share creation vote, it does not list the total number of shares. The correct numbers, with dates, are:


Titans For You [T4U] shares

date -created - total
20-06-09 - 1000 - 1000
18-09-09 - 203000 - 204000
24-04-10 - 70000 - 274000
01-07-10 - 68000 - 342000
22-08-10 - 108000 - 450000

(note the 'date' is the date the vote started, not the date the vote ended)


So this is expansion is not as big (relatively) as you've made it out to be. Also with every expansion so far, all shares have gone to existing shareholders. That makes the start-up costs (initial and for the expansion) less of an issue, though it does not eliminate it completely.

Kithran
Posted - 2010.08.23 21:08:00 - [1917]
 

Originally by: Kell Braugh
snip

Lastly, my stock numbers are based on the publicly available stock information for 'titans for you'. As this is game, I will admit I don't spend hours and hour pouring over the various IPO submissions.



Show info on any corp in the game gives an inaccurate count of shares unless no shares beyond the original 1000 have been created. The shares figure shown on the attributes tab for titans for you just shows the number of shares created in the last expansion - 68000 which was for the purchase of an me2 erebus or avatar bpo (can't actually remember which).

There are currently 342000 shares as have been stated by others, this expansion will take the total shares to 450000. This figure is also given in Bad Bobby's first expansion post.

Kithran (who made the very first reservation when Titans For You started so has definitely been here since the begining ;)

Jadun
Posted - 2010.08.23 21:27:00 - [1918]
 

yo ho

i would like to add another 2 Bil isk

to my 8 Bil isk for this expansion

Jadun

Kell Braugh
Dawn of a new Empire
The Initiative.
Posted - 2010.08.23 21:28:00 - [1919]
 

Ok, I'll note that little inaccuracy in my head like the rest of eve's misleading figures and attributes. Wink

Although I still think its a valid point I made originally, I will also agree that all things being equal, its not as big of a deal seeing the real share counts.

As far as not seeing the previous 'expansion' posts, well, its a 64 page thread. Sorry.




Ji Sama
Caldari
Tash-Murkon Prime Industries
Posted - 2010.08.23 22:15:00 - [1920]
 

I think we keep missing each others points.

I am not valuating my time as free, I am in fact agreeing with you, that long term investors, are seeing the smallest ROI.

Cant be more clear on this.

Where I am disagreeing with you, is in the devaluation of the shares, they are still worth 1M each, since the NAV has increased exponentially, with every reissuing of new shares!


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