Posted - 2010.08.23 12:30:00 - [1892]

 

The story so far...

Originally by: Bad Bobby

---

Existing Shareholder Reservations

10,000 Bad Bobby
10,400 Emmgel
1,000 Kithran
2,000 max ikabon
8,000 Jadun
4,500 AnthonyKiedis
5,000 Ji Sama
2,001 Phoebe Halliwel
600 Xi Khan
5,000 Lord Schmock
5,000 Marbo Slyder
1,000 jwingenderowns
1,000 Morrow Borric
1,000 GX307
4,000 Norah Sin
300 Banque
600 Bert Rebus
5,000 Amarr Citizen 155
300 Marijke Mcneely
450 Zilkin
1000 Gagarthoe III
7,000 Kapila Parthalan
2,000 Onyth
4,000 Trayjan
1,900 Biff Hanran
200 Jovan Geldon
1,000 Jeddeita
2,000 Pierced Brosmen
500 Captain Siria
1,000 Kell Braugh
1,000 Sandrane Kipler
10,000 Dalden V
3,000 Miyuki Suzumiya
4,000 Philip Ogtaulmolfi

Total: 105,751 of 108,000

New Shareholder Reservations

200 Teura
200 Vrikaan Phoenix
20,000 mental maverick
2,000 danyalsun
200 Kendra Coldera

Total: 22,600

---

Posted - 2010.08.23 13:02:00 - [1894]

 

Originally by: Bad Bobby

---

Attention Shareholders!

I will start a three day shareholder vote for the creation of 108,000 shares.

Vote YES if you want the expansion to go ahead.

Vote NO if you do not want the expansion to go ahead.

As before, if the vote passes I will be allowing existing shareholders one week to purchase shares before they are made available to new investors.

---

Minor shareholder here, and lacking in current liquidity :S

That said, I'd like to vote yes for this, and also reserve a meagre 100 million ISK's worth of shares.

I know it isn't much, but all I have at the moment!

Posted - 2010.08.23 15:05:00 - [1896]

 

Existing Shareholder looking to reserve another 2,000 shares if available, or all available shares otherwise. Thanks!

Posted - 2010.08.23 15:45:00 - [1898]

 

existing shareholder: 200 shares if there are any left please

Posted - 2010.08.23 17:56:00 - [1900]

 

Existing shareholder. Would like to reserve 200 shares if expansion passes.

Posted - 2010.08.23 18:36:00 - [1902]

 

existing shareholder, will take 500 if another passes

Posted - 2010.08.23 19:07:00 - [1904]

 

People can just vote no, if they think share value is diluted, I personally do not see it that way, since we are increasing NAV with another titan BPO, therefore atleast based on NAV value, your shares are still worth 1 million each, now if you bought at a higher price, well that is simply your problem!

Posted - 2010.08.23 19:28:00 - [1906]

 

Edited by: Trebor Whettam on 23/08/2010 19:30:23
Edited by: Trebor Whettam on 23/08/2010 19:29:26

Originally by: Kell Braugh

---

Originally by: Bad Bobby

---

We are increasing the size of Titans For You by 32%, but I don't see where you are getting a 63% value dilution from. Could you explain how you came to that figure?

---

You are creating new shares outside of a stock split, so that dilutes the value of existing stock as far as current stockholders are concerned. This creates 2 issues.

1) Current trading price of T4U stocks is around 1.25-1.3mil +/-, you are artificially lowering it 1mil.
You are also making it so any current stockholder, for whatever reason, that doesn't buy at least 1.58 "new" stocks for every stock they currently own will in effect have their stock holding position loose value (as a percentage of the companies entire public holdings).

2)This is not withstanding dividends which will lower 63% as the new stock is issued and begins to receive payments for investments that the new stocks really didn't make.

The 63% comes from the fact you are increasing the total amount of stock by 108k.

I'm not arguing the value of investment, only that it is being done in such a way that you are, on a per stock level, increasing the value of the company by 32 while costing your current stockholders ~21% (~1.27mil vs 1mil a share) of their current stock's value and 63% of their potential future dividends-- its a hard pill to swallow.

If you wish to make a new investment, fine. But please do it through a corporate bond, not on the backs of your current shareholders.

---

These are excellent points, and #2 really high-lights the issue. Until the BPOs purchased with the expansion money are primed, stagnant revenues will be distributed to a greater number of shares. This punishes investors who don't reup for a proportional number of new shares. It makes much more sense to raise the new funds through a new bond.

The issue is caused by the unavoidable lag in initial profits, which is a sort of one-time cost, except that this expansion would apply the lag a second time to the original shares and only partially once to the new shares.

Posted - 2010.08.23 19:52:00 - [1908]

 

I'm not a shareholder and haven't even been following this thread, but it occurred to me that if the concern about share dilution was a serious one, you could offer new shares to the current shareholders in proportion to their current holdings. So if the number of shares were being increased by 25%, someone with 1000 shares would have the right to buy 250 more shares. If they choose not to exercise that right, the excess shares could be offered to the other shareholders first before being offered to the public.

Implementation of this might seem overly complicated, but it seems to me that you could achieve the same effect with the current reservation system. All you would have to do is compare the reservation list with the current shareholdings and instead of cutting it off on a first-come-first-serve basis you should find the cut-off ratio that distributes the appropriate number of shares. In other words, a small shareholder that places a disproportionately large reservation may find his reservation trimmed somewhat.

Of course changing the rules in the middle of the process might not be a good idea, but it could be a viable option of the current vote fails. In fact, shareholders that wanted to get reservations in but didn't do so in time might consider voting against the current proposal in hopes of a second vote under changed rules . . .

. . . or not. As I say, I have no horse in this race and I'm only offering my unsolicited opinion for what it is worth.

Posted - 2010.08.23 19:57:00 - [1910]

 

Edited by: Zamestian Han on 23/08/2010 19:59:14
I'd like to reserve 6b please

Edit: Existing shareholder...

Posted - 2010.08.23 20:19:00 - [1912]

 

Edited by: Ji Sama on 23/08/2010 20:19:59
You are so wrong, first of the argument that some of us was with this from the start isn't even close to the phrase; minerals I mine is free.
I was actually agreeing with your point 2! But you are for some reason taking all of this personal!

Secondly Estels numbers are spot on, we have 342K shares, and with the 108K expansion we have 450K!

Don't know where you got your numbers from, I am guessing the same place you found the correlation between, minerals I mine is free vs. I have been here since the beginning.


EDIT: WTB YOUR SHARES 1M P/U

Posted - 2010.08.23 20:36:00 - [1914]

 

Originally by: Ji Sama

---

You are so wrong...But you are for some reason taking all of this personal!

---

Unlike *some*, i'm not taking this to a personal level. This is a game after all.

Its in the same fold as "mined minerals are free" because you are putting zero value on the time your investment has been in, just like miners who put zero value into their own time. Your original investment could have been doing other things, just like the miners could have been doing other things with their time to make money.

Lastly, my stock numbers are based on the publicly available stock information for 'titans for you'. As this is game, I will admit I don't spend hours and hour pouring over the various IPO submissions.

Originally by: Ji Sama

---

EDIT: WTB YOUR SHARES 1M P/U

---

This must just be more of your "not taking it personal" so I'll have to pass.

Posted - 2010.08.23 21:07:00 - [1916]

 

Edited by: Estel Arador on 23/08/2010 21:10:18

Originally by: Kell Braugh

---

Originally by: Estel Arador

---

With the current 342000 existing shares... After the expansion, with 45000 shares

---

Currently: 68,000 Shares
Post proposed expansion: 176,000 shares
Those are the numbers attached to reality that I am using.

---

Those numbers are incorrect. The ingame corp details only show how many shares were created in the last share creation vote, it does not list the total number of shares. The correct numbers, with dates, are:

Titans For You [T4U] shares

 date    -created -  total
20-06-09 -   1000 -   1000
18-09-09 - 203000 - 204000
24-04-10 -  70000 - 274000
01-07-10 -  68000 - 342000
22-08-10 - 108000 - 450000

(note the 'date' is the date the vote started, not the date the vote ended)


So this is expansion is not as big (relatively) as you've made it out to be. Also with every expansion so far, all shares have gone to existing shareholders. That makes the start-up costs (initial and for the expansion) less of an issue, though it does not eliminate it completely.

Posted - 2010.08.23 21:27:00 - [1918]

 

yo ho

i would like to add another 2 Bil isk

to my 8 Bil isk for this expansion

Jadun

Posted - 2010.08.23 22:15:00 - [1920]

 

I think we keep missing each others points.

I am not valuating my time as free, I am in fact agreeing with you, that long term investors, are seeing the smallest ROI.

Cant be more clear on this.

Where I am disagreeing with you, is in the devaluation of the shares, they are still worth 1M each, since the NAV has increased exponentially, with every reissuing of new shares!