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Tauranon
Gallente
Weeesearch
Posted - 2009.06.19 10:07:00 - [31]
 

Originally by: Mara Rinn


Technically there is no limit on the active tonnage in a w-space system, regardless of the limits on the entry wormholes. If you can get a control tower and the appropriate assembly arrays in, you can manufacture ships that won't fit through the wormhole. Then you get dozens of people to come through in pods, and you can spend the rest of your life stomping on whoever tries sneaking into that system.




Sure, however, after you clear your 1-2 sigs a day (some of which will be low value), then all you can do is entertain the mass equivalent of about 8 BS pilots at a time for most W-space systems.

You can recruit and field a 200 man corp, and over time assemble that armada in your w-space but for individuals, its going to be a very boring place to leave their character, with no local sigs (income), and mass limit on the exit hole required for the return of the gang.

JitaPriceChecker2
Posted - 2009.06.19 10:35:00 - [32]
 

Originally by: Tauranon
Originally by: Mara Rinn


Technically there is no limit on the active tonnage in a w-space system, regardless of the limits on the entry wormholes. If you can get a control tower and the appropriate assembly arrays in, you can manufacture ships that won't fit through the wormhole. Then you get dozens of people to come through in pods, and you can spend the rest of your life stomping on whoever tries sneaking into that system.




Sure, however, after you clear your 1-2 sigs a day (some of which will be low value), then all you can do is entertain the mass equivalent of about 8 BS pilots at a time for most W-space systems.

You can recruit and field a 200 man corp, and over time assemble that armada in your w-space but for individuals, its going to be a very boring place to leave their character, with no local sigs (income), and mass limit on the exit hole required for the return of the gang.



It deosnt change the fact tha the poses there are unshakeable.

Midnight Firestarter
Perkone
Posted - 2009.06.19 10:57:00 - [33]
 

"It doesnt change the fact that the poses there are unshakeable."

Not at all ..... even with the standard 1 Billion mass limit Wormhole you can bring in a 80-100 BS - Logistics Fleet within 24 Hours to crack all but the largest POS's..

It all down to putting in some effort and not getting everything handed to you on a plate by CCP

JitaPriceChecker2
Posted - 2009.06.19 11:06:00 - [34]
 

Edited by: JitaPriceChecker2 on 19/06/2009 11:07:49
Edited by: JitaPriceChecker2 on 19/06/2009 11:06:21
Originally by: Midnight Firestarter
"It doesnt change the fact that the poses there are unshakeable."

Not at all ..... even with the standard 1 Billion mass limit Wormhole you can bring in a 80-100 BS - Logistics Fleet within 24 Hours to crack all but the largest POS's..

It all down to putting in some effort and not getting everything handed to you on a plate by CCP


The lowest wh does not allow BS.

Not to mention you would have to fight 200 man corp and caps , because thats what i was reffering to.

clyno
Posted - 2009.06.19 11:32:00 - [35]
 

Maybe it's time that CCP introduces new POS mechanics: While offline towers deteriorate and are eventually destroyed. This way some1 would have to online them (even if for a short period of time) so towers can regenerate. Time interval would need careful balancing but even if this does not prevent people from spamming towers it will at least clear some towers out of the game...

Petyr Baelich
Valar Morghulis.
Get Off My Lawn
Posted - 2009.06.19 11:33:00 - [36]
 

Originally by: JitaPriceChecker2
Edited by: JitaPriceChecker2 on 19/06/2009 11:07:49
Edited by: JitaPriceChecker2 on 19/06/2009 11:06:21
Originally by: Midnight Firestarter
"It doesnt change the fact that the poses there are unshakeable."

Not at all ..... even with the standard 1 Billion mass limit Wormhole you can bring in a 80-100 BS - Logistics Fleet within 24 Hours to crack all but the largest POS's..

It all down to putting in some effort and not getting everything handed to you on a plate by CCP


The lowest wh does not allow BS.

Not to mention you would have to fight 200 man corp and caps , because thats what i was reffering to.

Why the heck would a 200 man corp live in a class 1-2 wormhole and build caps there, (that are going to be stuck there forever and unable to be insured/self-destructed)? So they could make less money than running lvl 3s? If you have a 200 man corp you'd need about 10 class 6 wormholes to live in, assuming about 50% of your members are active.

Also, it's a level playing field. Even assuming your rediculous example of a decent-sized corp who wanted to corner the market on a low-class wormhole, someone else could easily do the same things you stated as barriers. Namely, haul in manufacturing arrays and build battleships and capitals in the kiddy pool.

No one with any intelligence is going to build/bring in more than 2 capitals into a wormhole, any more than two and you're stuck with 1 wormhole, you can never move. Living in wormholes depends on constant movement. A group of 15 or so wormhole dwellers living in a c5/c6 with 2 capitals and a standard assortment of battleships will clear out a wormhole in about 1-2 weeks, depending on their activity level and make between 1.5-2x lvl 4 income doing it. They'll also spend the vast majority of their time doing logistics, hauling sleeper tags out, building t3 at the POS, scanning paths out to k-space, (going through 1-7 wormholes in the process) hauling compressed ore out, dealing with the fact that today's exit is 30 jumps away from where yesterday's was.

It's good money, but it's definitely not easy money. It's been over 2 months since wormholes were introduced and you're surprised that most of the lower-class, easy-entry ones with static exits to highsec are "taken"? Either go a few more levels up the chain, or oust the current residents. *Hint, you don't have to blow up someone's POS to ruin their day.

Midnight Firestarter
Perkone
Posted - 2009.06.19 12:04:00 - [37]
 

Quote:
The lowest wh does not allow BS.


from Hi-sec maybe ..... but also they are not the most common ....

Try class 2-3-4-5

Max Khaos
Norse'Storm Battle Group
Intrepid Crossing
Posted - 2009.06.19 12:07:00 - [38]
 

Sound like someone want it handed to them on a plate .....


lo breeze
CyberShield Inc
Posted - 2009.06.19 16:28:00 - [39]
 

Nom nom nom.... Yup!!! Your tears are still delicious!


Why the hell should new players be able to make as much and do as much as established players right off the bat. Name ONE MMO where a new player can do everything a player who has a year/s worth of experience, assets and contacts can do?

Have you ever thought of maybe joining a WH corp? Novel concept, amirite?


Nom nom nom

Rekria
Caldari
Sine Qua Non
Posted - 2009.06.19 16:31:00 - [40]
 

Most wormholes leading to w-space from high sec space have pos's in them, or they've been cleaned out. However when I found my way to 0.0 and started scanning wormholes from there the w-space systems are almost always empty.

lo breeze
CyberShield Inc
Posted - 2009.06.19 16:58:00 - [41]
 

Edited by: lo breeze on 19/06/2009 17:00:17

Most WH's with POS's in them have 2-3 WH's that always open to other wormholes. So even if you strip your base system, there are 3 fresh ones every 24-36 hours.

Quote:
What about a rebalancing to make stuff like this harder? or are new pilots going to be shut out again?Evil or Very Mad


In regards to the OP. New players aren't shut out. Solo carebears are shut out.

EDIT:

How will making things harder, make things easier and more accessible for new players? I really fail to see the logic in that. You have some e'splaining to do Lucy.

Herzog Wolfhammer
Gallente
Sigma Special Tactics Group
Posted - 2009.06.19 17:46:00 - [42]
 

"solo carebears"


I find this an amusing term. Because what carebear goes straight from high sec K space to nullsec WH Space? I have known many in K space who absolutely refuse to go into a WH. But spending some time in there actually teaches you how to "live" in nullsec. It's a great place to get the habits down right without having to run the lowsec gankfest gauntlet.

But there is something else. In the large thread started by ArDragon, the concept of WH Diplomacy was lightly addressed. I have stated that there are more warlike reasons for having a POS in a WH. If the goal is to harvest the WH and reap/**** the rewards, it simply does not do. If there is a increase of lost or abandoned POSs in WH space, it may well be because of the failed dream of the WH System being a big fat magical ISK/T3 production pump. Sure it may take a fleet to bring down a POS, but like nations in the real world, economics will bring a POS down much easier.

Now about that diplomacy. I can see a WH system being a great roaming attack jump off point for PVP and trade. PVP and trade is a major part of EVE. Maintaining a POS in a WH system for that purpose is excellent, for when you get a K162 into a low or nullsec system, you can attack the ocupants if you want, or if it's a high sec system, then log in the nicey alts and go in to sell the goods. I don't condone that myself but it's fair to address all modes of game play that consideres all players.

For those looking to gain something from living in a WH syste, they best get into some level of diplomacy because one noob with combat probes can make major issues. They can, like the stateless forces of the middle east, use economic weapons against a WH POS. Fact of the matter is, if the WH occupants want to go Jan Brady on someone in a frig who cannot mine, or stand up to sleepers, out of some fear that they will be "stolen from" (all they will get really is some noobs wreck after the sleepers make chopped meat of his ship), then that noob has the power to grief the occupants by hitting the sites and starting desparn timers. Already there are reports of rocks vanishing while being mined and plexes vanishing. What CEO wants to find out the hard way that their entire WH venture is a fail because their lowbys wanted to gank someone for no reason? Sure the noob cannot fight back with force, but every military invincable empire has been brought down through finance. The noob can also find WH's to K-Space while the occuapants are offline, and go into the local of K-space and broadcast the WH info making for very big securoty issues. Yes, for those who think it's "Their" WH because they chose to put a POS in it, killing players just because you can means the entire goal of the POS can be put to risk. Yes if they come in with a freighter or BS and you want to fight over resources then that is fine. Fighting over resources is a great aspect of the sandbox. But if you want to kill exploreres fot the lulz, think twice.
Considering the amounts of Vagisil consumed on these forums about there not being enough people in lowsec, finding a noob in unknown space in a T1 Frig should be considerd a good thing, and as they are willing to go but not otherwise capable of doing harm, CEOs running WH POSs should consider a policy of hiring them. They just want to explore, encourage that.

lo breeze
CyberShield Inc
Posted - 2009.06.19 18:07:00 - [43]
 

Edited by: lo breeze on 19/06/2009 18:29:32
One noob with a probe launcher is going to have a tough time greifing anyone who has two accounts.

All that will cause is many more tasty tears for us to consume.

Jammed + Scrambled = Dead noob.

It takes at least two people to be any kind of bother. Also, my buzzard will find some noob before he finds me. Oh wait, I can haz covops cloak?

Herzog Wolfhammer
Gallente
Sigma Special Tactics Group
Posted - 2009.06.19 20:22:00 - [44]
 

Perhaps.

But you will lose sleep.

lo breeze
CyberShield Inc
Posted - 2009.06.19 20:29:00 - [45]
 

Quote:
Perhaps.

But you will lose sleep.


Hardly.

It takes less 1 min to have a Scorpion rammed down his throat web/jam/scrambling all the while.

GG Sir, next!

Herzog Wolfhammer
Gallente
Sigma Special Tactics Group
Posted - 2009.06.19 22:52:00 - [46]
 

Originally by: lo breeze
Quote:
Perhaps.

But you will lose sleep.


Hardly.

It takes less 1 min to have a Scorpion rammed down his throat web/jam/scrambling all the while.

GG Sir, next!


Are you using a bot?

lo breeze
CyberShield Inc
Posted - 2009.06.19 23:24:00 - [47]
 

Ok ok, 1 min 30 seconds...

Seriously though its not hard to scan someone down in a rigged Buzzard with high Astrometric skills, warp to them cloaked with a ship or two aligned in the same direction ----> warp to fleet to member aaaaand BINGO!

Better yet, have you ever heard of a Heavy Interdictor?

Herzog Wolfhammer
Gallente
Sigma Special Tactics Group
Posted - 2009.06.19 23:41:00 - [48]
 

Edited by: Herzog Wolfhammer on 19/06/2009 23:41:36
Originally by: lo breeze


Better yet, have you ever heard of a Heavy Interdictor?


What is that, a kind of large sausage?

I am totally new to this game.

lo breeze
CyberShield Inc
Posted - 2009.06.20 00:37:00 - [49]
 

Quote:
I am totally new to this game.


I'm starting to think so myself TBH.

Steve Hawkings
Posted - 2009.06.20 11:30:00 - [50]
 

Originally by: JitaPriceChecker2
i have scanned 7 wormhole in empire today.

6 of 7 had poses in them , in 5 there was no resources , all stripped down.
You are saying it is ok ?.



Yea thats fine,
Ofc the ones you find in empire will be busy,
I scanned 12 in low sec and 0.0 and only three had a pos.

MushMush
Minmatar
Method of Destruction
Snatch Victory
Posted - 2009.06.20 11:35:00 - [51]
 

Originally by: Reangorette Bianie
I though that this was not supposed to happen; that w-space with POS would be hard to supply etc.,etc.,etc., I just started scanning and found this:
nullFirst Part
Second Part

What about a rebalancing to make stuff like this harder? or are new pilots going to be shut out again?Evil or Very Mad


Frankly you're talking rubbish. I live in a WH (lets call it Ninjaland) and people are still able to come in and run the content. We can't be on 23/7...

I just like it as a place to hang-out and sometimes get the chance to pewpew Wink

Hope to see you in Ninjaland some time soon.

JitaPriceChecker2
Posted - 2009.06.20 19:31:00 - [52]
 

Originally by: Steve Hawkings
Originally by: JitaPriceChecker2
i have scanned 7 wormhole in empire today.

6 of 7 had poses in them , in 5 there was no resources , all stripped down.
You are saying it is ok ?.



Yea thats fine,
Ofc the ones you find in empire will be busy,
I scanned 12 in low sec and 0.0 and only three had a pos.


I aggree that hi sec does not need to lead to easy isk , but i think its a matter of time when most of the w-system will be occupied no matter where you scan.

And it is an issue with ability to set up defenses that attackec can not have ( f.e. bulding caps inside )

And to answer some of previus posts
No having 200 man corp and caps inside w-system != 200 man sitting there idle 23/7

Morp p'LLoran
Silver Snake Enterprise
Against ALL Authorities
Posted - 2009.06.21 03:42:00 - [53]
 

I aggree that hi sec does not need to lead to easy isk , but i think its a matter of time when most of the w-system will be occupied no matter where you scan.

And it is an issue with ability to set up defenses that attackec can not have ( f.e. bulding caps inside )

And to answer some of previus posts
No having 200 man corp and caps inside w-system != 200 man sitting there idle 23/7


No problem with a pos in every system - somebody whined less than you on the forums and actually went out and did something. Eve = effort, not solo-noob heaven

Tauranon
Gallente
Weeesearch
Posted - 2009.06.21 04:36:00 - [54]
 

Edited by: Tauranon on 21/06/2009 06:16:42
Originally by: JitaPriceChecker2
Originally by: Steve Hawkings
Originally by: JitaPriceChecker2
i have scanned 7 wormhole in empire today.

6 of 7 had poses in them , in 5 there was no resources , all stripped down.
You are saying it is ok ?.



Yea thats fine,
Ofc the ones you find in empire will be busy,
I scanned 12 in low sec and 0.0 and only three had a pos.


I aggree that hi sec does not need to lead to easy isk , but i think its a matter of time when most of the w-system will be occupied no matter where you scan.

And it is an issue with ability to set up defenses that attackec can not have ( f.e. bulding caps inside )

And to answer some of previus posts
No having 200 man corp and caps inside w-system != 200 man sitting there idle 23/7


What part of the mass restrictions do you not understand ?

If 20 characters log on at once, 12 of those characters are on many days, not going to be able to leave the POS system to access resources, until the gang already fielded returns. Then only after they go through the effort and book-keeping required to close the WH safely. If they are in highsec missioning, all 20 of them can start missions in whatever configuration they feel like, whenever they feel like it.

That is why a 200 man corp will never be fielding anything like 200 members (or significant combat alts) actually located at a WH pos. The 'you can't do anything effect', will quickly cause many members to return to empire or 0.0 for entertainment or economic purposes.

As for building an armada of caps at a pos. Its plain stupid. They are trapped most of the time, and if you have significant numbers of caps at a pos, it could take literally months to get them out (as they collapse holes with very few transits). Therefore you recieve very little entertainment as an owner for all that effort mining and importing resources. 200 people will not mine and import resources and wait in line for the caps to be constructed, when the caps will then mostly effectively be trapped.

Moose Balzak
Posted - 2009.06.21 05:26:00 - [55]
 

Originally by: Midnight Firestarter
"It doesnt change the fact that the poses there are unshakeable."

Not at all ..... even with the standard 1 Billion mass limit Wormhole you can bring in a 80-100 BS - Logistics Fleet within 24 Hours to crack all but the largest POS's..



Might want to check your math on this. 1 Bil WH will not take that many BS's.

Tauranon
Gallente
Weeesearch
Posted - 2009.06.21 05:52:00 - [56]
 

Originally by: Moose Balzak
Originally by: Midnight Firestarter
"It doesnt change the fact that the poses there are unshakeable."

Not at all ..... even with the standard 1 Billion mass limit Wormhole you can bring in a 80-100 BS - Logistics Fleet within 24 Hours to crack all but the largest POS's..



Might want to check your math on this. 1 Bil WH will not take that many BS's.


Stage the combat fleet in empire. Run enough through to collapse WH. Find new route to empire. Repeat.

Nuzzy Futs
Amarr
Hedion University
Posted - 2009.06.21 05:58:00 - [57]
 

Originally by: JitaPriceChecker2
i have scanned 7 wormhole in empire today.

6 of 7 had poses in them , in 5 there was no resources , all stripped down.
You are saying it is ok ?.



I find that hard to believe, you actually undocked - Dang.

JitaPriceChecker2
Posted - 2009.06.21 07:50:00 - [58]
 

Edited by: JitaPriceChecker2 on 21/06/2009 08:15:29
Originally by: Nuzzy Futs
Originally by: JitaPriceChecker2
i have scanned 7 wormhole in empire today.

6 of 7 had poses in them , in 5 there was no resources , all stripped down.
You are saying it is ok ?.



I find that hard to believe, you actually undocked - Dang.


No i actually came back to empire just to check it out . I live in w-space at the moment.

Instead of trying to be smart , you could give some constructive arguments.

JitaPriceChecker2
Posted - 2009.06.21 07:54:00 - [59]
 

Edited by: JitaPriceChecker2 on 21/06/2009 08:10:46
Originally by: Tauranon


What part of the mass restrictions do you not understand ?

If 20 characters log on at once, 12 of those characters are on many days, not going to be able to leave the POS system to access resources, until the gang already fielded returns. Then only after they go through the effort and book-keeping required to close the WH safely. If they are in highsec missioning, all 20 of them can start missions in whatever configuration they feel like, whenever they feel like it.

That is why a 200 man corp will never be fielding anything like 200 members (or significant combat alts) actually located at a WH pos. The 'you can't do anything effect', will quickly cause many members to return to empire or 0.0 for entertainment or economic purposes.

As for building an armada of caps at a pos. Its plain stupid. They are trapped most of the time, and if you have significant numbers of caps at a pos, it could take literally months to get them out (as they collapse holes with very few transits). Therefore you recieve very little entertainment as an owner for all that effort mining and importing resources. 200 people will not mine and import resources and wait in line for the caps to be constructed, when the caps will then mostly effectively be trapped.



It is really hard to understand that 198 poeple can go out and in in pods ( they dont have to f****** sitting inside the system ) , and leave ships parked at poses ?

Originally by: Morp p'LLoran


No problem with a pos in every system - somebody whined less than you on the forums and actually went out and did something. Eve = effort, not solo-noob heaven


I dont have problem with poses either , i have a problem with possibility for defenders to have too great advantage in defense with no additional risk/effort.

BTW I dont whine , i live in w-space with my corp as well . I just see where it all leads to.

Tauranon
Gallente
Weeesearch
Posted - 2009.06.21 13:56:00 - [60]
 

Edited by: Tauranon on 21/06/2009 13:56:31
Originally by: JitaPriceChecker2


It is really hard to understand that 198 poeple can go out and in in pods ( they dont have to f****** sitting inside the system ) , and leave ships parked at poses ?




Only a fraction can deploy along the route, everyone else has to go out, get located somewhere randomly in k-space, jump to or buy assets, and then scan their own set of w-holes to exploit.

If you keep 200 people there, then lots of those people are going to spend their time jumping, if they want to do any content. If I have 45 minutes overhead for all of those reasons on each end of my playtime, then I have 30 minutes of 'playtime' in 2 hours of 'gametime'. Trust me, 200 people aren't going to live at your pos.

Quote:

Originally by: Morp p'LLoran


No problem with a pos in every system - somebody whined less than you on the forums and actually went out and did something. Eve = effort, not solo-noob heaven


I dont have problem with poses either , i have a problem with possibility for defenders to have too great advantage in defense with no additional risk/effort.

BTW I dont whine , i live in w-space with my corp as well . I just see where it all leads to.



So living a WH is overpowered defensively, but the cyno jammer, SOV 4, stations and titans aren't ?


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