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Isaac Starstriker
Amarr
Frontier Venture
Posted - 2009.06.17 19:16:00 - [31]
 

Originally by: Real Poison
Originally by: Isaac Starstriker

He said there is no real consensus. Just your opinion is not a consensus. He is not trolling, he is stating fact. Of which even myself, have never seen one real point about Minmatar that says they are truly in need of a buff. I see plenty of people who are able to use them efficiently. So I don't blame CCP for saying that.

--Isaac


we haven't reached page 2 and i already see consensus that they're sub-par to other races BS and the reasons are a plenty.


This is also one thread. There are quite a number of different threads on the subject and none of them seem to agree on the problem and/or solution to the problem. (Quite a bit different story when regarding other racials such as Gallente, who claim its a tracking issue).

--Isaac

Raivi
Sniggerdly
Pandemic Legion
Posted - 2009.06.17 19:26:00 - [32]
 

Edited by: Raivi on 17/06/2009 19:32:35
Originally by: Isaac Starstriker
Originally by: Real Poison
Originally by: Isaac Starstriker

He said there is no real consensus. Just your opinion is not a consensus. He is not trolling, he is stating fact. Of which even myself, have never seen one real point about Minmatar that says they are truly in need of a buff. I see plenty of people who are able to use them efficiently. So I don't blame CCP for saying that.

--Isaac


we haven't reached page 2 and i already see consensus that they're sub-par to other races BS and the reasons are a plenty.


This is also one thread. There are quite a number of different threads on the subject and none of them seem to agree on the problem and/or solution to the problem. (Quite a bit different story when regarding other racials such as Gallente, who claim its a tracking issue).

--Isaac


Generally what you're seeing is not disagreement about what is wrong with minny battleships, it's that there's a very long list, and different people are emphasizing what they think is most important. For instance I personally think that the weapon systems are the most important failing, but I agree with what people above have said about active tanking and split weapon systems/high sp requirements.

:Edit: I will agree with you that finding the right solution to buff them without breaking balance in any other ways will be tricky, but that doesn't mean it isn't an effort worth making. I don't think CCP should wait for players to find the perfect solution before they start brainstorming in-house, I'm sure they don't either.

Kweel Nakashyn
shadow and cloaking
Yggdrasill.
Posted - 2009.06.17 19:39:00 - [33]
 

Edited by: Kweel Nakashyn on 17/06/2009 19:51:59

Originally by: Elaron
Originally by: CCP Diagoras
Regarding Minmatar, there doesn't seem to be any real consensus on why their battleships are the least popular. If you have any theories on why this is, feel free to discuss this in the comments thread.
Because the Minmatar racial benefits of greater base speed and lower signature radius do not scale well at the battleship level.
Because large projectiles fail to scale well from the smaller levels of guns.
Because of successive game changes specifically designed to degrade the importance of alpha strike.
Because a Minmatar specced character trained to use all three battleships well suddenly finds that it possible to cross train to use other races battleships very easily, and uses them instead as they give better options for almost all battleship roles.


My point exactly. I'm strating to crosstrain.

Diagoras you have the acces to the db, I think if you look at Matari players, you'll see a lot of % of them cross-training. Other races don't do that.
We have versatiles ships but the game now need specified roles. Maybe it wasn't true when Tier 1&2 were designed but now, in June 2009, versatility means nothing.

Since we have shield tank/armor tank/speed tank, good missiles skills, good drones skills and excellent gunnery skills what do we do : train, for exemple, smal/med/large hybryd then caldari or gallente freg/cruiser/bs and tada we fly gallente or caldari => Matari population spray around a lot more than any other race population.

5 speed nerf is too much, we had nothing more than this and 3 other race whinners asked and asked again a minnie nerf. Against 17% or so of other players that can't say nothing. Does Minnie whines aginst armor or shield tank ? No they can't because they can't tank the same by now and if they whine they'll tank nothing...

So since the last speed nerf does projectiles got a boost ? They got a nerf with locus rig stacking penalty. The Tempest can't snipe now. It is supposed to shoot car sized projectiles...

Look at the Huricane, since the 7th turret got nerfed, it's a cool ship but when you plot max dps * max defence of each tier 3 bc, which is tanking/ganking efficiency, it's crap vs others. 7th turret or another med slot is what is needed for this ship tbh...

etc, etc. Minnie ships looks good on the paper but CCP need seriously to play with them.

Minnnie aren't hte sex anymore... Sad

- edit - oh trolls, yes it's a whine and go away

Kweel Nakashyn
shadow and cloaking
Yggdrasill.
Posted - 2009.06.17 19:50:00 - [34]
 

Edited by: Kweel Nakashyn on 17/06/2009 19:50:01
Originally by: Min Qa
Quote:
Regarding Minmatar, there doesn't seem to be any real consensus on why their battleships are the least popular. If you have any theories on why this is, feel free to discuss this in the comments thread.


* Large projectile are just not good. Low DPS and horrible range for BS level combat. Fighting in falloff reduces damage too much for the supposed range advantage.

And since, with all these nerf speed
- a mwded minnie bs is, say, 1000m.s-1. A mwded other bs is, say 800m.s-1 How can we control and micromanage the falloff ? In 1 minute at +200m.s-1 to get 12 km ? With a mwd and a tank running it's impossible imho

Kweel Nakashyn
shadow and cloaking
Yggdrasill.
Posted - 2009.06.17 20:04:00 - [35]
 

Edited by: Kweel Nakashyn on 17/06/2009 20:05:26
Originally by: Isaac Starstriker
Originally by: Larkonis TrassIer
Originally by: CCP Diagoras
Regarding Minmatar, there doesn't seem to be any real consensus on why their battleships are the least popular. If you have any theories on why this is, feel free to discuss this in the comments thread.



Nice troll. Do you guys even read the forums? Do you even have to ask this?




He said there is no real consensus. Just your opinion is not a consensus. He is not trolling, he is stating fact. Of which even myself, have never seen one real point about Minmatar that says they are truly in need of a buff. I see plenty of people who are able to use them efficiently. So I don't blame CCP for saying that.

--Isaac


15/20 pages about minnie artillery last winter, tons of thread about "dual weapon sucks", "versatily means nothing" and "Matari ships are sub-par" is called a consensus in my book.

How many players cross-train to Matari bses ? How many players cross-train to Caldari bses ?

Myrkala
Minmatar
Rebel Inc
Posted - 2009.06.17 20:28:00 - [36]
 

Edited by: Myrkala on 17/06/2009 21:29:51
Originally by: "CCP Diagoras"
Regarding Minmatar, there doesn't seem to be any real consensus on why their battleships are the least popular. If you have any theories on why this is, feel free to discuss this in the comments thread.



Ohh, Hahahah! That was a good one Diagoras! Nearly killed me. Neutral


Protip: Use eve-search, put in "Minmatar". Congratulations, you have now found 15*grahamsnumber threads where 90% of them one or more are related to their topics:

Fighting in falloff
37,5% DPS
Hit Quality
Tempest
Suck
Typhoon
Skill intensive
Hard Mode
Split-Weapon Systems
Train Amarr/FOTM
Please Fix

Ect, ect. I think you have found the main ingredients of the Minmatar Consensus-Soup!

H h og jibb-jei, jibb- jeij, a er kominn sautjndi jni! Cool


Bellum Eternus
Gallente
The Scope
Posted - 2009.06.17 20:53:00 - [37]
 

Like the majority of the players posting here, I find some of the comments by CCP Diagoras to be a little amusing.

This data is pretty simple, yet it paints a very dramatic picture. Just think of all the data that the devs have available to themselves that they'll never release to the players. Think of all the trends that they can view, all the statistics that they can track to help them balance the game. And yet it seems that they just ignore most if not all of it and continue on in some sort of blind ignorance.

Minmatar BS use is in the dirt. Why? The reasons are horribly obvious to what appears to be everyone except the dev team. Falcon use is through the roof with the Arazu and Pilgrim far behind and the Rapier falling fast ever since the speed changes.

Stuff like this is so clearly evident with even the smallest most simple data sets, and knowing this CCP seems to think that everything is just fine and balanced and 'working as intended'.

While the provided data takes into account both PVE and PVP useage for the ship types, I'd like to see the data split into PVE and PVP sets so that we can get a better picture about ship use for PVP. PVE ship use has been self evident for years now. No news there.

The real question is- with even minimal data there are some glaring issues with ship design and balance. What would we see if we had more in depth data and more detailed reports with better metrics?

If a manufacturer of a real life product saw similar data to the Minmatar BS figures they would be doing something about it. Why doesn't CCP?

And where are the Tier3 BS data? The Marauder data? Command ships? Hacs? Tier1/2 BCs? Inquiring minds want to know. Hell, I don't think that you could ever provide us with too much data. I doubt you'd hear anyone say 'omg, stop, you're killing us with too much good stuff.'

Alz Shado
EverFlow
Posted - 2009.06.17 20:57:00 - [38]
 

It's about the Ammo, stupid.

-T2 Hybrids don't have much of a penalty. More Cap? Minor Tracking hit?
-T2 Crystals burn up faster and use up a lot of cap. But isn't that what cap boosters are for?
-What about T2 Torps? Sig radius boost of less than 5%?
-What about T2 Drones? The cost?

But what about T2 Projectiles? Do I want to completely kill my speed, maneuverability and capacitor, or become completely useless at ranges less than 100km?

Not to mention that to even GET to T2 ammo, you need to train up every size turret to V and every size specialization skill to IV

T2 projectile ammo is beyond pointless, and faction ammo is 1) Rare 2) Expensive 3) Not as good.

The alpha strike of a Minmatar BS is useless -- targets too far to tackle and slow tracking means damage is easily reduced at very slow speeds. Enemies that can get anywhere near will eat a Sniper fit to pieces. Against drones they're defenseless -- so remove a highslot for a smartbomb and lose 15-20% of your DPS! Fast enemies are virtually invincible due to lousy tracking penalties, and then since maneuverability is one of the big T2 ammo penalties you can't even escape.

The only Minmatar BS worth PVPing in is the Typhoon. It's large drone bay, versatile highslots, and ability to fit a decent armor buffertank make it a jack of all trades, master of none. But in a "fair" fight, it'll lose every time because it can't be maximized in any particular direction.

But hey, it's cool to be able to fit torps, autocannons, AND a full compliment of heavy drones, in a ship that resembles a keg.

Cornette
Gallente
Solar Revenue Service
TAXU
Posted - 2009.06.17 21:11:00 - [39]
 

Originally by: "CCP Diagoras"
Regarding Minmatar, there doesn't seem to be any real consensus on why their battleships are the least popular. If you have any theories on why this is, feel free to discuss this in the comments thread.


Best CCP Troll ever.

It's now official: CCP fail miserably at reading tons of pages of why Minmatar BS and Artillery been lacking for years.

How can that possibly be, ah thats right 90% of CCP characters are Caldari PVE-players. Thats why you added 15 new Caldari Agents.

Well done CCP, you suck.

The Mittani
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
Posted - 2009.06.17 21:11:00 - [40]
 

there's no consensus on what's wrong with minmatar bs because there are so many things wrong with them


ugh

Jalmari Huitsikko
Caldari
draketrain
Posted - 2009.06.17 21:31:00 - [41]
 

There's nothing wrong with minmatar battleships and same time there's everything wrong with them :D

If something could be looked into I have 2 suggestions:
- Making typhoon armor tanking torpedoboat. -> Less turret slots and less done space. More missile slots or "2xdmg" bonus.
- Do "something" for rest large AC boats vargur, mael, tempest etc. Don't care about arties but AC's need love either falloff, more dmg types, better ammos etc.

Also caldari battleships are becoming kind of "obsolete"





Evelgrivion
Gunpoint Diplomacy
Posted - 2009.06.17 22:05:00 - [42]
 

Originally by: The Mittani
there's no consensus on what's wrong with minmatar bs because there are so many things wrong with them


██████████████████████████████
████████████████████████
████████████████████████
███████████████████████████
█████████████████████████
████████████████████████
██████████████████████████████

Kazuo Ishiguro
House of Marbles
Posted - 2009.06.17 22:16:00 - [43]
 

Originally by: CCP Diagoras
Regarding Minmatar, there doesn't seem to be any real consensus on why their battleships are the least popular. If you have any theories on why this is, feel free to discuss this in the comments thread.


Nominating this for Troll of the Year 2009 Rolling Eyes

Merouk Baas
Gallente
Posted - 2009.06.17 22:50:00 - [44]
 

Edited by: Merouk Baas on 17/06/2009 22:51:57

I accidentally the entire market.

Good blog/thread title.Wink

It's also blogID=666, according to the URL.

Clinically
Gallente
ANZAC ALLIANCE
Posted - 2009.06.17 22:53:00 - [45]
 

Quote:
Regarding Minmatar, there doesn't seem to be any real consensus on why their battleships are the least popular. If you have any theories on why this is, feel free to discuss this in the comments thread.


ugh

facepalm.jpg

Taram Caldar
Royal Black Watch Highlanders
Warped Aggression
Posted - 2009.06.18 00:02:00 - [46]
 

Edited by: Taram Caldar on 18/06/2009 00:07:09
The comment about Minmatar battleships is just scary.
It's not that there isn't a general agreement that there's a problem with them. It's just that there are so many problems with them that nobody can agree as to which is worst.

<insert appropriate facepalm graphic of choice here>


Alz Shado
EverFlow
Posted - 2009.06.18 00:37:00 - [47]
 

Edited by: Alz Shado on 18/06/2009 00:39:53
Just to play Devil's advocate, I'd ask if CCP was wondering less about what's technically wrong with the Minmatar BS, and more about what the perception of what's wrong with it. IE, why would a complete noob who's never even read the forums choose one ship over another.

I'm sure they've done the trends and have established the design flaws. (Whether they're willing to do what's necessary to fix them and risk needing to rebalance the status quo is another story) What they want is a much easier fix - how to boost the appeal of the Minmatar Battleship. How to make them more interesting without actually making it different. An image makeover.

Maybe it's as simple as changing the skin. The typhoon is a beerkeg; a shiny beerkeg, but it's still just a barrel full of Natty Light. The Tempest looks like a steampunk angelfish. While other races have sleek and futuristic ships as their fleet's most powerful subcap ships, the Minmatar reflect their junkyard heritage in every texture.

Perhaps they retire the keg and give their new Tier 1 ship a Machariel hull. Perhaps they can include complimentary Exotic Dancers and Quafe Ultra with every new ship. Or Minmatar battleships get a specal warp effect, leaving a trail of flaming debris in it's wake.

Lets not judge their post for anything more than what it is -- judging a popularity contest. They just can't (or won't) admit that their battleships are the Sanjaya of EVE.

Vixa Ambrodel
Minmatar
CrayC Inc.
Posted - 2009.06.18 02:21:00 - [48]
 

I am sad. I have been away from this game a for long time, but look in on the dev blogs every now and then. I made this, my third character, to be a pure Minmatar pilot, since the other characters I have can fly almost everything else.

I see a question: Why does minmatar ships suck?

And as so many have replied: Because they can do everything. It's costy, not just in isk to get all the skillbooks, but also in time to train everything. We're talking armor AND shield, guns AND missiles, drones AND electronic warfare.

Amarr can do just fine with sticking to lazors and armor.
Caldari can do just fine with sticking to missiles and shields.
Gallente can do just fine with sticking to drones and armor.
Minmatar kinda sucks if you don't train all of the above.


Nuts Nougat
SniggWaffe
FREE KARTTOON NOW
Posted - 2009.06.18 02:40:00 - [49]
 

Originally by: Alz Shado
stuff
One of the reasons I trained minmatar is because steampunk is best punk. Please leave my skins alone. If anything, bring the rusty classic content back. I detect a severe lack of rust in premium client typhoon :S

To fix the tempest give it 7th (maybe even 8th, then it'd be somewhat equivalent to the apoc/rokh as far as damage goes) turret slot, PG to fit said turrets and introduce 1600mm artillery. That said I also want 800mm artillery for muninns and 6th turret slot there. If it worked for the zealot...

To get autocannons to work I have no idea what to do. Try increasing base falloff on all weapon sizes so you can outrange scorch. That way even though you have crap tank, and even crappier dps, you can at least try to use your marginally better speed to stay out of range and hope your crap dps will be able to break your enemies tank.

Also apply same buffs to normal projectiles that were recently applied to capital ones? It was slower rof, higher alpha which helps plenty with silly low clip sizes.

Zenethalos
Minmatar
Doesn't Afraid Of Anything
Posted - 2009.06.18 02:54:00 - [50]
 

Edited by: Zenethalos on 18/06/2009 02:58:48
Edited by: Zenethalos on 18/06/2009 02:54:46
Hrm what is wrong with Minmatar BS? After being a dedicated minnie pilot for three years I have pretty much given up and crosstrained to Amarr.

Typhoon: I use to hate this ship because of the split weapons. Now I love it, using t2 torps and auto's it can put up some fierce DPS, at extremely close ranges though, 10-12km. Issue is with the era of long range RR it sucks for DPS, and Alpha. Only Matar ship that needs t2 large drones.

Tempest: Range, just does not cut it. Also the ambiguos tanking abilities. It is just not a good RR gang ship.

Mael: This was the ship given to us Matari pilots to use for PVE Twisted Evil The shield bonus needs to change in this current age or armor RR since shiel RR is just not an option which is really sad. It can still be a great close range RR ship with its five lows but it's shield bonus detur many of us in my experience from using it for RR gangs.

Matar ships are just too skill intensive considering their mediocrity. You need shield skills, armor skills, missile skills(for a decent phoon any ways), gunnery skills, and if you don't want to be laughed at for using t1 ogre's you need to shell out even more time on t2 ogre's if you are flying a typhoon in an RR fleet to give it noticable DPS.

Funny enough to say it but in my own experience the Typhoon with the proper skills is the best matar PVP/PVE ship.

I cannot think of any players that I know who wanted to cross train to Minmatar, were the cosmic joke of eve.

Jufi Wekior
Arachnid Logistics
Fate Weavers
Posted - 2009.06.18 03:23:00 - [51]
 

I'd like to see graphs comparing T2 ammo and faction ammo. Last I checked all the high-damage T2 ammo is useless. short range high-damage ones because they only increase damage by the same amount as empire faction ammo. Long range high-damage ones because they completely nerf any chance at doing any meaningfull damage because of severe range penalty and tracking penalty. This would probably be reflected in sales of Void, Conflagration most of all. Hail still has a minor use as being mostly explosive damage.

As for minmatar battleships, I would think it's just that other races have ships that specialize more while minmatar doesn't(classical example is the typhoon). As a result once a minmatar user is highly skilled he'll switch race more often then not. Friend of mine started out as a minmatar specialist and can now use all 4 races bs and does so for specific tasks, like Apoc for sniping, Dominix for pve(T2 sentry drones ftw he says), Geddon for RR fleets etc etc.

Jennai
GoonFleet
GoonSwarm
Posted - 2009.06.18 03:35:00 - [52]
 

mineral costs of T1 BS using Oursulaert buy order prices from two months ago (too lazy to login and update my spreadsheet)

dominix 46.9m
armageddon 48.9m
scorpion 54.5m
typhoon 56.4m

Cat Molina
Minmatar
Intransigent
Posted - 2009.06.18 05:21:00 - [53]
 

My god. What's not wrong with Minnie battleships? Seems like every change made in the last two years has hurt them.

EW in the mids? Killed in the EW/script nerf.
Speed? Killed with the nano nerf.
Missiles? Killed with the missile nerf.
Alpha/sniping? Killed that with the hit point boost.
And on and on and on...

Since the fall of the Nano-Phoon they've steadily been taken apart.

What are you left with? Sub-par ships which fail across the board. Yes a Typhoon, if trained for a couple of years, can be dangerous... if only because no one has a clue what you've fitted (blank canvas syndrome). It still remains unable to outclass the other races who specialize (at three times the training costs!).

Like others, I finally gave up and began cross-training the other races.

Bonny Lee
Caldari
Starkstrom
Initiative Mercenaries
Posted - 2009.06.18 06:05:00 - [54]
 

Originally by: Elaron
Originally by: CCP Diagoras
Regarding Minmatar, there doesn't seem to be any real consensus on why their battleships are the least popular. If you have any theories on why this is, feel free to discuss this in the comments thread.
Because the Minmatar racial benefits of greater base speed and lower signature radius do not scale well at the battleship level.
Because large projectiles fail to scale well from the smaller levels of guns.
Because of successive game changes specifically designed to degrade the importance of alpha strike.
Because a Minmatar specced character trained to use all three battleships well suddenly finds that it possible to cross train to use other races battleships very easily, and uses them instead as they give better options for almost all battleship roles.


To be honest this is so true. I now have 45 Million SP and specced Minmatar only until i had about 37-38 Million... In the last half year i found that i could do better PvE with the Ishtar and that i prefer the Lachesis over my previous roaming the huginn. I startet to train for Gallente BS and will bring it to 5 in the next month after my perc/will remap. I love my Minmatar Ships but why should i stay with Tempest if i could use Mega as well? Why should i use Phoon (my char has 45m SP full combat and still lacks in missle skills to fly it how it should be) or Maelstrom if im able to fit a Domi perfect as well?

Perhaps when i got another 5 Million SP in Missiles i go back to Minmatar (Phoon) but thats the only Minmatar Ship (BS) being cool and worth the effort.

So what should you do?
Buff Arties => Maelstrom gets better Mission-Ship
Buff PG on Pest => Being able to fit it as a Sniper without that damn rcu

Tres Farmer
Gallente Federation Intelligence Service
Posted - 2009.06.18 06:09:00 - [55]
 

Well..
I can only speak about the Typhoon here, but i think its worth to put that into the pot.

I was searching for a Missile/Armor Tanking BS a while ago.
I looked up the Caldari BS.. Raven, nope, Scorp, nope, Rokh, nope.
Then I searched in the other races BS and the only BS I found which had at least 4 Missile bays was the Phoon and it even armor-tanked.
Cool I thought..
Then I loaded that beast in EFT and tried to give it some sense..

Conclusion:
- Phoon lacks two more Missile Bay points if you cant field turrets
- a Raven can be Armor tanked as well and does more DPS and is cheaper too

Advice:
Look at the Ferox and how it helped as you revisited its points for Missile/Turret Bays..
I would like to vote for a armor tanking Missile BS.. and if you can 6 Missile Bays on the Phoon. There just is no other BS which can do that..

BlondieBC
Minmatar
Galactic Exploration and Missions
Posted - 2009.06.18 06:46:00 - [56]
 

The minmatar battleships are very skill point intensive, with no coresponding benefit. I would like to see minmatar battle ships with much smaller sig radius, say 30% smaller.

Derus Grobb
Minmatar
Selectus Pravus Lupus
Transmission Lost
Posted - 2009.06.18 07:24:00 - [57]
 

I lol'd at the Minmatar BS troll Very Happy

Please go and fix them now, thanks

Sun Ra
Euphoria Released
HYDRA RELOADED
Posted - 2009.06.18 08:12:00 - [58]
 

I miss my tempest Mad

DJTheBaron
Caldari
FinFleet
KenZoku
Posted - 2009.06.18 08:58:00 - [59]
 

Am I the first person to comment on the interesting graphs?

Oh rite, thats not what this blog was about.

Myyona
Minmatar
Ataraxia Pharmacies
Posted - 2009.06.18 09:19:00 - [60]
 

I have always stuck with Minmatar ships, all the way to the Vargur. At least I know that the chance of getting shafted is minimal.


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