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Mykpilot
Gallente
Stardust Heavy Industries
Majesta Empire
Posted - 2009.06.17 00:00:00 - [1]
 

Edited by: Mykpilot on 17/06/2009 00:17:14
Some numbers before we start:
The cost to replace a battleship with no modules after premium insurance is paid out generally ranges from 6M-18M.

The cost to T2 fit a battleship is about 1.5M-3M for high slots and about 1M-2M for mid and low slots. The modules will generally cost between 20-30M.

Your rigs will run between 15M-20M each for the ones that most people fit to a BS, cccs and armor rigs. The exception is the shield resistance rigs which are like 2M. The rigs will generally cost between 45M-60M.

Looking through kill mails, most people rig their BS's. I currently don't, but maybe I'm wrong. To me, on paper the rigs double the cost to replace my fully fitted BS while increasing the performance by a fraction of cost.

The amount of ISK required isn't the issue, but if the benefits I recieve don't justify the additional cost then I won't go for it.

So, comparing rigged vs not rigged, I can lose 2-3 fitted BS for every 1 rigged BS.

One thing that is a variable that is hard to gauge is, what if I get podded. Need to consider the cost of the clone, the cost of the impants. Given, the fleets I run in, I personally think my ship getting popped or not has little to do with my ship being rigged or not.

There are some cases rigs are required for me to meet a certain goal, such as double DD proof, so the issue is clear cut there. The issue is in the area where the rigs don't make my BS meet a requirement but just make it a little bit better.

So, assuming I can afford to lose rigged ships, is it still worth it? Just looking for some input on this.

Guillame Herschel
Gallente
NME1
Posted - 2009.06.17 00:10:00 - [2]
 

Edited by: Guillame Herschel on 17/06/2009 00:11:54
You're the reason people call this game Excel Online.

Originally by: Mykpilot
Just looking for some input on this.


Johnny 5! Neeeeeeed inpuuuuuuut!

Mykpilot
Gallente
Stardust Heavy Industries
Majesta Empire
Posted - 2009.06.17 00:15:00 - [3]
 

Originally by: Guillame Herschel
Edited by: Guillame Herschel on 17/06/2009 00:11:54
You're the reason people call this game Excel Online.


Yeah, I've been told before that I need to stop breaking everything I do/play down to a math problem.

Terianna Eri
Red Federation
RvB - RED Federation
Posted - 2009.06.17 00:20:00 - [4]
 

I find that a battleship costs about 20 - 40 mil to lose after insurance, depending on what tier it is.
I find that modules cost more like 3-4 mil for high slots and 1.5-3 for mids and lows.

Plus you have to consider the cost of ammo (not inconsiderable, especially if you're Amarr, I regularly spend about 12-15 mil in ammo for a set of 8 Scorch + 8 Navy Multifreq) and drones (add another few million).

So for, say, an Abaddon, that's...

40 mil insurance premium
3.5*8 = 28 for turrets
2.5*4 = 10 for midslots
2*7 = 14 for lowslots
14 for ammo
4 for drones

is more like 110 before rigs, at which point throwing 3x trimarks onto the ship increases the cost by 50% instead of 100%.

Basically I think you might be underestimating the cost of fitting a battleship a little bit.

Mykpilot
Gallente
Stardust Heavy Industries
Majesta Empire
Posted - 2009.06.17 00:41:00 - [5]
 

Edited by: Mykpilot on 17/06/2009 00:43:17
I did forget to account for ammo and drones.

Ammar is unique in their cost for ammo as the upfront cost is significantly larger than the other races. Which will inflate their cost vs races.

Drones are about 0.5M-0.6M each so about 3M.

The cost for an Abaddon is about 140M in Jita. The insurance costs 58M the payout is 180M, so the difference is 18M which is the most of any of Tier 3 BSs.

Some battleships are more expensive to fit that others, some are cheaper (Raven/Scop/Domi). The ratio of cost to replace is going to vary depending on the ship and role, but I feel the estimation in general will fit more times than not.

However, with that said, the cost for modules is an estimation and could be improved to be more accurate.

Chompy
Caldari
Posted - 2009.06.17 02:32:00 - [6]
 

if u can afford to rig it do it! myself would not take an unrigged bs into battle of pvp or pve. but then i may have more iskies than some.

ravens i would fi an EM screen things, 3m, but will save your ass, 3m well spent

Mutnin
Amarr
Mutineers
Posted - 2009.06.17 02:47:00 - [7]
 

I don't fly BS's, but what I look at in most fights, is any ship will melt if it's primaried by enough DPS. It doesn't matter if it's rigged or has fancy faction mods. In the end it will die if it's called primary in a fleet battle.

Which means to me, I can't see the point in armor rigs because it will only delay the ships death a very short time. If anything I'd likely fit damage rigs.

Now if you are doing solo or fighting small gangs then maybe rigs make sense assuming your not expecting to fight against over whelming DPS.

TriIIion
Posted - 2009.06.17 03:06:00 - [8]
 

Originally by: Mutnin
I don't fly BS's, but what I look at in most fights, is any ship will melt if it's primaried by enough DPS. It doesn't matter if it's rigged or has fancy faction mods. In the end it will die if it's called primary in a fleet battle.

Which means to me, I can't see the point in armor rigs because it will only delay the ships death a very short time. If anything I'd likely fit damage rigs.

Now if you are doing solo or fighting small gangs then maybe rigs make sense assuming your not expecting to fight against over whelming DPS.


Rigs are good on battleships, and in most cases on battlecruisers as well. Rigs can definitly be the difference between losing your ships and having them survive, I can't tell you how many times we've saved battleships in hull in RR gangs.

aetherguy881
Gallente
Posted - 2009.06.17 04:51:00 - [9]
 

As a more PvE experienced pilot and not as used to losing ships, I would still have to say that a rigged BS is the way to go. Granted you can throw the Tri-marks on there, but CCC's seem to work the best as they open up other slots once used for cap.

I guess you could work it vice versa as well...

Pending on what you're trying to achieve, it can really push the ball onto the other side of the fence.

Just my 2 cents.

NorthEasterly
Posted - 2009.06.17 05:17:00 - [10]
 

Individually, rigging your BS's doesn't get you too much.

But if you take 2 evenly matched 10-20man fleets, the difference is just plain obvious.

Moral of the story: If your gang uses rigs, you should use rigs. If your gang is going cheapo style (which there is nothing terribly wrong with in certain situations), don't rig.

If you're solo'ing... Eh, that's up to you. Rigs won't get you out of prolly 75% of the situations you lose, but rigs will get you prolly an extra couple kills before you do bite it, or on the rare cases they actually save you.

Dominik Maiverti
Clan Mythos
World Allegiance of The Hunt
Posted - 2009.06.17 12:11:00 - [11]
 

IMHO, if you can afford to do it, and not end up in the red sooner or later (i.e. you're income allows for this type of fitting) go for it. I have only recently started rigging my BS's, but I feel it makes a notable difference in my effectiveness. It's all personal preference honestly.

Stick with the golden rule, don't fly what you cant afford to replace.
also stick with the silver rule. *cough*condoms*cough*

Raimo
Genos Occidere
HYDRA RELOADED
Posted - 2009.06.17 12:40:00 - [12]
 

Edited by: Raimo on 17/06/2009 12:46:04

I rig pretty much everything I fly, from T1 frigs (Which I fly seldom though) and T2's to BS, HAC and Recon. For me the question has been lately if I should T2 rig or T1 rig! :P (Some T2's are "sensibly" priced in the 30-40 mil area that is comparable to faction mods... No, I won't normally fit T2 Trimarks or anything like that)

Granted, I fly solo and small gang and usually avoid blobs but for me squeezing the extra bit of effectiveness is the way to go. I don't think I'd go for more than 3-400 mill for a single hull with my current income though, but my BS'es and HACs are in the 200-300 mil region, recons 300+ and T2 frigs 50-70 usually... (Mainly ceptors, though I do fly a 200mil+ lolceptor as well for special uses... And at some point I tried fitting really pimp Ishkurs but in the end it was a bit meh)

Tarnia Xavian
Minmatar
Brutor Tribe
Posted - 2009.06.17 19:28:00 - [13]
 

You obviously don't remember the days when you spent 12-20 mill per slot to fit T2 guns and other mods. 3 x 20 mill rigs is nothing compared to those times. Fit the rigs, or lose to an opponent who does.

Artemis Rose
Clandestine Vector
THE SPACE P0LICE
Posted - 2009.06.17 19:51:00 - [14]
 

As a general rule, if the rigs cost more than the ship, don't do it.

I'd rig BSes, because its very common to rig them and leaving rig slots empty just puts you at a disadvantage.

Myk Jita
Posted - 2009.06.17 21:36:00 - [15]
 

Originally by: Tarnia Xavian
Fit the rigs, or lose to an opponent who does.
Assuming the battlefield conditions were equal, I would expect a solo/gang to lose a mirror match (expect they have rigs) everytime.

However, battlefield conditions are rarely equal and the outcome of a battle (from my experience) is rarely close enough that rigged BS's would of turned the tide enough to justify the cost.

The factors that have the largest impact on the battlefield are often things out of our hands, such as the size of your gang and the quality of your FC. Your own ability to play your role effectively and fit your ship is but a small factor in the large scale of things, which is what I'm trying to relate to.

Twilight Magester
Caldari
Foundation
Posted - 2009.06.18 01:06:00 - [16]
 

The only way I can justify rigging a ship is "does this help my fitting?"

For example, fitting 3x CCC rings might allow you some extra slots that you would not have to fit cap rechargers.

Trimarks will increase your armo(u)r amount, will that help you out with an extra low slot?

Resistance rigs (which I love, and are cheap) might let you get away with an extra mid (for shield tankers) or an extra low (metal tanks of yore).

Honestly it's up to you, but if rigs will let me fit a ship differently than I otherwise would have to, I heartily accept the trade-off.

Bloody Rabbit
Posted - 2009.06.18 02:16:00 - [17]
 

Originally by: Twilight Magester
The only way I can justify rigging a ship is "does this help my fitting?"

For example, fitting 3x CCC rings might allow you some extra slots that you would not have to fit cap rechargers.


I spotted your problem, fit Cap boosters for PvP not rechargers ugh

Lunewraith
Amarr
FinFleet
Raiden.
Posted - 2009.06.18 05:34:00 - [18]
 

I dunno. If I'm going cheapo, I do it in a battlecruiser. All my Battleships get rigged. I feel if its Tier 1, great, I'll spend the difference between it and a higher tiered BS in rigs/mods. If it costs over 100 mil for the hull, it always gets rigged - I'm spending a fair amount for the ship already and I'm not gonna go cheap on it. If its T2, it nearly always gets rigged (exception being AF's, but they do often enough as well). I don't think I'd ever fly an unrigged HAC/Recon.

I use a pretty narrow selection of choices though, and often rig cheap using Resistance type rigs on T1 cruisers, BC's (which are really inexpensive in terms of rigs).

Each there own I guess. I find rigs make a huge difference, but results might vary.

Mahke
Aeon Of Strife
Discord.
Posted - 2009.06.18 07:28:00 - [19]
 

Keep logistics in mind.

Is it worth it on pure isk grounds (except the cheapest rigs)? Of course not.

BUT, consider the value of the time and effort of buying the ship, the fittings, getting it where you want, and suddenly once you consider that, rigs, t2 ships, all the expensive jazz is much more worth it. Logistics effort is a non-trivial cost.

So, on the surface, no. Under the surface, sometimes.

Tzar'rim
Posted - 2009.06.18 10:07:00 - [20]
 

Edited by: Tzar''rim on 18/06/2009 10:36:50
I want to buy my T2 fittings for the price the OP states please. Also, Being double DD proof has it's uses, or is that an understatement?

El Liptonez
V0LTA
VOLTA Corp
Posted - 2009.06.18 12:03:00 - [21]
 

Flying Caldari (and thus only Rokh as a BS in PVP), I always rig my BSes. Before Scorpions have been nerfed I of course rigged my Scorpions to hit the 200km optimal range. 18m in rigs was well worth being put onto a 50m BS for me, given that usually no one shoots at me at this range. In fleet battles there should be the chance to warp out anyway, a Scorp survives no DD but it survives getting primaried at 200km+. Well that was before ECM nerf.
And for that Rokh... 30k more EHP by rigs is well worth the 45m ISK. Even for real PVP, you will want the buffer. It takes minutes to take such a buffer down as the Rokh got badass resists anyway. Good bait ship, superior if you get RR/Logistics. Buffer until you can jump/dock/deaggress, buffer to get in range of other things.
And of course all that shield resist rigs are worth using at their current price.

Ronin Reborn
Bi-Polar Bears
Posted - 2009.06.18 13:27:00 - [22]
 

Depends on what you want to do with the ship.

Fleet snipers, no unless required as in the case with some Amarr BS and pg rigs for tachs.
Remote Rep BS should always have 3x trimarks imo, thats a lot of extra armor that allows people more time to lock and cycle the RRs and keeps you alive longer when the DPS surpases your fleets ability to rep due to lag, range, cap, or EW issues.
For PVE do w/e you want, you probably won't NEED rigs but it generally makes you more efficient and you shouldn't lose the ship.

Hatsumi Kobayashi
Sniggerdly
Pandemic Legion
Posted - 2009.06.18 13:30:00 - [23]
 

In my opinion it boils down to what you're using your ship for. If it's strictly PvE in high sec (missions), I'd go ahead and invest in rigs since barring connection issues, you can't really lose the ship if you have half a brain. For 0.0 ratting I'd think twice about rigging a battleship, I meaneven an unrigged battlecruiser does the job fine there.

For PvP, there are some setups that just won't work fine without rigs. Consider a RR BS with no trimarks, for example. Maybe it's cheaper, but your survival rate just dropped a lot. Otherwise I think it's a matter of preference. As for shield tankers, well shield resist rigs are so cheap you might as well just keep a stack ready and rig everything you got.

Sanakan Seidensha
Posted - 2009.06.18 17:35:00 - [24]
 

Edited by: Sanakan Seidensha on 18/06/2009 17:36:41
For me, it depends on the battles my ship will most likely see.

If its PvE, or small scale PvP, then yes, I rig my ships, even the smaller ones.
That is, because in these circumstances, I have a good amount of control over what happens to my ship.
For example, when I was flying in low sec with my corp, good FCs I trust and mates I can rely on to give me RR or ecm me out of lock, all my ships were rigged and I hardly ever lost them. If I did, it was often a very close call.

But if I will be part of a big fleet, likely to meet other big fleets (as in 0.0 sov wars) then my ship will be unrigged. That is because I will fly my ship wherever the FC tells me to and when I end up there I will either be primary and melt in seconds, or not be targeted and survive. The difference between when I melt within 8 seconds (no rigs) or 10 seconds (3x Trimarks) is hardly worth 60M. Thats if you can actually tell how lon git took and not lag out and the next thing you see (10 minutes later) is the inside of a station.

I have yet to see a situation, where rigs (of the defensive kind) would have saved me in big fleet pvp. Of course DD-events are the odd one out, but thats easy to calculate.

Snake O'Donell
Gallente
Core Impulse
Posted - 2009.06.18 18:22:00 - [25]
 

There are only two reasons to rig a BS for pvp.

1. Trimarks for a low-sec RR BS gang.

2. Anti DD rigs for 0.0.

Other than that you shouldn't rig as people have said previously, if you are primaried you are going to die. Rigs just delay the time it takes for you to die slightly.

Syringe
Incura
Posted - 2009.06.18 19:18:00 - [26]
 

I've noticed that I lose battleships less frequently now that I've started rigging 'em. Causation =/= correlation, but this is compelling enough for me to keep doing it.

Lunewraith
Amarr
FinFleet
Raiden.
Posted - 2009.06.18 23:09:00 - [27]
 

Keep in mind the defensive rigs (trimarks, etc.) that are discussed here are not the only rigs you can fit to your ships. Falloff rigs, ROF rigs, agility rigs, etc. can all make your ship versatile and potent as well. Depends on playstyle I guess; I tend to go glass cannon for the most part, relying on speed, agility, range + gank in gang rather than tank.

Commander Yassir
Dirt Nap Squad
Dirt Nap Squad.
Posted - 2009.06.19 04:12:00 - [28]
 

It depends really... On my solo pvp ships I go with no or cheap rigs, however on some fleet ships I do rig them. It all depends really...mostly on how much isk I have in my wallet.

Kambiri Zoltana
the united
Negative Ten.
Posted - 2009.06.19 09:59:00 - [29]
 

We used to have trimarked bs in my last wh corp to run encounter, their they arev ery usefull to create armor buffers with rr support.

Robert0288
Caldari
R E D E M P T I O N
Black Star Alliance
Posted - 2009.06.19 12:11:00 - [30]
 

Quote:
For PVE do w/e you want, you probably won't NEED rigs but it generally makes you more efficient and you shouldn't lose the ship.


For PVP, for the most part, the extra isk you put into your ship is extra edge you get for survival purposes, and the extra edge your gang gets.

For example; *most* snipe BSs in 0.0 space *should* be able to tank atleast 1 DD. By extention this means 3 trimarks. Now if your jsut being shot at normally, the extra time given to you by the 3 trimarks gives you more of a buffer to;
A) GTFO
B) get reps
C) If all else fails, act as a meat shield for the rest of your gang longer so more DPS can be applied. If the hostiles spend and extra 20 seconds shooting at you, thats and extra 20 seconds of DPS thats not hitting another ship in the fleet.

Also rigs have saved my life more than a few times.


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