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Moghrom Zanthor
Fathom Corp
Joint Venture Conglomerate
Posted - 2009.06.16 00:47:00 - [1]
 

If I can pretty much breeze through level 3 kill missions with a Drake and all T2 fittings and shield rigs (core defense field purgers), can I go for level 4 missions solo in a Raven?
I can fit Cruise launchers and Siege launchers. Just now skilling drones and can only use 4 T1's ATM. Decent support skills in missiles (except heavy II)(Using XR-3200's which are just about as good). Decent in Engineering and Electronics and ok on Shields.
I know this is a pretty generic question and depends more on the individual but any feedback would be appreciated. Don't want to lose a Raven and don't want to take standings hit(s) for failing. And I'm tired of doing level 3 missions and getting peanuts instead of some decent isk.
Thanks
.

Moneyhungryhoe
Posted - 2009.06.16 01:19:00 - [2]
 

Expect to warp out once or twice in most missions first. 4 drones is enough to kill scrambling frigs. You have a high chance to lose a Raven due to inexperience once so platinum insure it, if isht happens you only lose like 30m, pays back in 2 hours.

GGjita
Posted - 2009.06.16 01:40:00 - [3]
 

Couple things, as to whether or not you should fly a raven comes down to this. You should have T2 light drones at the least, i would not take BS into a L4 without them. You should also be able to use all T2 cap and shield type mods.

Once you have the above things trained it comes down to you tank/dps. The general rule of thumb is that your tank + you dps should at least = 1000. You want your dps to be at a minimum of 400.

Once you can meet all this you should have no trouble running L4's.

Sturmwolke
Posted - 2009.06.16 02:03:00 - [4]
 

Originally by: Moghrom Zanthor
If I can pretty much breeze through level 3 kill missions with a Drake and all T2 fittings and shield rigs (core defense field purgers), can I go for level 4 missions solo in a Raven?



Generally :

- You absolutely need 5x T2 light drones to kill scrambling frigates/elite frigates in a timely manner. Preferably, your Drone Interfacing skill should be at minimum 3.

- Roughly a 400-500 dps specific tank (i.e. non-omni) that will last for about 4-5 mins on sustained mode. For L4 virgins, I'd suggest overtanking your boat to > 500 until you get familiar with the aggro management.

- For Ravens pilots specifically, fit a minimum 2x Warhead Rigor rig to help with killing cruisers/HACs in a timely manner. Fit 1x PWNAGE in situations where your tank can be reduced and there are lots of cruiser class rats in the mission. As you get more familiar with L4 missions, depending on your playstyle, you may fit the full complement 3x Warhead Rigor rigs.

- Again for Raven pilots, fit at the very least 2x BCS. The norm is 3x BCS and a full gank fit is 4x BCS.

- Finally, make sure you readup on the missions at Eve Survival wiki

For those that prefer active perma-tank and for some that likes passive shield tank on a battleship, only the first two points apply. I won't comment on the pros/cons on these setups as it's usually up to the individual preference - just as long as they're aware of the trade-off.

Sample Raven fit (Sansha tanked), adjust accordingly to your skills & situation :

Damage Control II
Power Diagnostic System II
Ballistic Control System II
Ballistic Control System II
Ballistic Control System II

Large Shield Booster II
Domination Shield Boost Amplifier
Photon Scattering Field II
Photon Scattering Field II
Heat Dissipation Field II
Heat Dissipation Field II

'Arbalest' Cruise Launcher I,Paradise Cruise Missile
'Arbalest' Cruise Launcher I,Paradise Cruise Missile
'Arbalest' Cruise Launcher I,Paradise Cruise Missile
'Arbalest' Cruise Launcher I,Paradise Cruise Missile
'Arbalest' Cruise Launcher I,Paradise Cruise Missile
'Arbalest' Cruise Launcher I,Paradise Cruise Missile
800mm Heavy 'Scout' Repeating Artillery I,EMP L
800mm Heavy 'Scout' Repeating Artillery I,EMP L

Warhead Rigor Catalyst I
Warhead Rigor Catalyst I
Capacitor Control Circuit I

Draulin
Independent Faction
Posted - 2009.06.16 02:06:00 - [5]
 

It all depends on your skills. I had better luck with a BS in L3s, and run a Drake in L4s. Try it!

GGjita
Posted - 2009.06.16 02:15:00 - [6]
 

Originally by: Draulin
It all depends on your skills. I had better luck with a BS in L3s, and run a Drake in L4s. Try it!


/sigh....

Chainsaw Plankton
IDLE GUNS
IDLE EMPIRE
Posted - 2009.06.16 03:46:00 - [7]
 

Originally by: GGjita
Originally by: Draulin
It all depends on your skills. I had better luck with a BS in L3s, and run a Drake in L4s. Try it!


/sigh....


aka no, just don't do it, don't even try it.

Mara Rinn
Posted - 2009.06.16 03:55:00 - [8]
 

You have a T2-fit Drake, take that to try level 4 missions out. Make sure you can kill frigates quickly (Guided Missile Precision, Target Navigation Prediction, T2 drones), and learn which missions are easier if you kill the frigates first (eg: Worlds Collide), versus which missions will kill you if you kill the frigates first (Cargo Delivery).

Once you've learned the missions in a Drake, you can then think about upgrading to active tanking. Once you can active tank the missions in a Drake, train up your cruise missile skills and missile launcher rigging skills.

Then, pick an easy mission like Blockade or Right Hand of Zazzamataz and take your brand new Raven out for a ride. These missions allow you to escape at any time, and you can warp in at a range of your choice. If you can't tank these missions, put the Raven away.

If you can tank those missions, upgrade to a CNR with faction or T2 fittings and have at it! The CNR has more DPS and more buffer than the standard Raven, making it a much better ship to run missions in.

But start running level 4s in the Drake until you have some idea of what you're doing.


Aus Dog
Posted - 2009.06.16 11:15:00 - [9]
 

SturmWolfe. I don't get it. What is the big deal about reducing signature radius of missile explosions?(Warhead Catalyst). Being a devout shield tanker my slots are of course reserved for Purgers.

GGjita
Posted - 2009.06.16 11:30:00 - [10]
 

Edited by: GGjita on 16/06/2009 11:31:01
Edited by: GGjita on 16/06/2009 11:30:46
Originally by: Aus Dog
SturmWolfe. I don't get it. What is the big deal about reducing signature radius of missile explosions?(Warhead Catalyst). Being a devout shield tanker my slots are of course reserved for Purgers.


Basically if your missile has a explosion radius of 200m and the thing you are shooting has a sig radius of 100m. Even if it had no resists you could only do 50% of your potential damage to the target because it is half of your explosion radius. This is why it is important to have as small a explosion radius as possible.

My CNR setup has 3 rigor rigs and a TP on it. This basically means that i am able to hit cruisers and up for full damage. Without any of this you'd be doing about 50% damage to cruisers and 80% damage to BC's. Since in missions you kill a lot of things other than BS's this is a very important thing to have. Our explosion radius is to missiles what tracking is to guns. Remember too that this damage reduction comes into effect before they ever even look at how much damage your going to lose do to the resists of what you are shooting at.

Qinoly
Gallente
Avib VOV
Posted - 2009.06.16 11:32:00 - [11]
 

Answers fail to point out there is a huge difference between Raven and Drake.
A Drake relies on passive tanks.
However due to the much longer recharge time on your Raven, this won't work on it.
Raven's need an all active shield tank and don't be surprised to see a cap that depletes in under 3 minutes when running all mods continuously.

My point.. you can't really state 'once you can master lvl 3's in a Drake, you can do lvl 4's in a Raven.
It's a different kind of ship with a totally different approach.
Take the advice to heart on insuring it.

Zansatsja
Caldari
Dutch Space Oddesey
Posted - 2009.06.16 11:43:00 - [12]
 

Quote:
800mm Heavy 'Scout' Repeating Artillery I,EMP L
800mm Heavy 'Scout' Repeating Artillery I,EMP L



sorry but this made me LOL

Sigvardt
Minmatar
Starfish S.M.B.A
Posted - 2009.06.16 12:45:00 - [13]
 

Originally by: Zansatsja
Quote:
800mm Heavy 'Scout' Repeating Artillery I,EMP L
800mm Heavy 'Scout' Repeating Artillery I,EMP L



sorry but this made me LOL


I wrote a reply to this but then the forum ate my reply with the following message:

"The character you've selected does for some reason not belong to you!
CONCORD has been notified"

Moghrom Zanthor
Fathom Corp
Joint Venture Conglomerate
Posted - 2009.06.16 12:55:00 - [14]
 

Edited by: Moghrom Zanthor on 16/06/2009 13:23:13
Very good and informative feedback, I thank everyone for the help.
At the top of my skill list will be the T2 drones. Everybody seems to agree on that part. Then on to the only two (out of 14) Engineering skills I have that are not already at 4 or 5 which are shield management and shield compensation. Doing level 4's is very tempting in this Drake because I have yet to even go down past 70% percent shields on even the toughest mission(s) so far but I know level 4's can kick the crap out of you in a hurry if not prepared.
I just hope the isk will be worth it after all this skill training and expense. (Spent my virtual mortgage money on the Raven)Very Happy. I'll be running a dedicated salvager.


Thanks to all of you.
.

jst tstng
Posted - 2009.06.16 13:17:00 - [15]
 

I suggest you take some of the advise given as if it was somewhat besides the truth.

http://eve-survival.org/wikka.php?wakka=MissionReports

do your homework^^
Align to warp out
and be sure you can take out elite scrambling frigates

The extra money you make from L4s easily compensates any lost ship.

Gavin DeVries
Posted - 2009.06.16 13:34:00 - [16]
 

Originally by: jst tstng
The extra money you make from L4s easily compensates any lost ship.

As long as you don't lose the ship on the very first mission.Laughing

g0ggalor
Posted - 2009.06.16 15:39:00 - [17]
 

TBH you dont' need a full T2 fit to do L4s, although T2 light drones are really nice to have. Especially since once you have drones V, you can train drone interfacing, with it's +20% damage per level. That takes care of those pesky scramming drones quick.

I started L4s only being able to fit T2 PDSs and BCUs. Even with low skills, you can do the L4s without warping if you just watch the triggers.

Get a CRN as fast as possible though. It has an extra launcher hardpoint and that makes a huge difference.

From there just train what you need work on the most.

Lokia Enroch
Special Situations
TOHA Conglomerate
Posted - 2009.06.16 15:50:00 - [18]
 

I know the search feature of the forum sucks,so here

Cookie

Try that for all your questions first, and you won't have ti wait for people's replies.

Moghrom Zanthor
Fathom Corp
Joint Venture Conglomerate
Posted - 2009.06.16 16:17:00 - [19]
 

Originally by: Lokia Enroch
I know the search feature of the forum sucks,so here

Cookie

Try that for all your questions first, and you won't have ti wait for people's replies.


Thank you, I think Smile
.

temponita
Posted - 2009.06.16 18:06:00 - [20]
 

Edited by: temponita on 16/06/2009 18:09:36
Originally by: Lokia Enroch
I know the search feature of the forum sucks,so here

Cookie

Try that for all your questions first, and you won't have ti wait for people's replies.

ha ha!
very slick.
I could definitely use this Wink

Oh and for the lvl4, people said it right.
It all comes down to skill...
I remember having to warp out(like 6 times in some of the heavy hitters).
Now... I literally lock and load while surfing the interweb now.
Granted, it took 1.5 years to get there, but it certainly has payed off :)

Sturmwolke
Posted - 2009.06.16 18:36:00 - [21]
 

Edited by: Sturmwolke on 17/06/2009 12:37:54
Originally by: Aus Dog
SturmWolfe. I don't get it. What is the big deal about reducing signature radius of missile explosions?(Warhead Catalyst). Being a devout shield tanker my slots are of course reserved for Purgers.


As of Quantum Rise expansion, CCP rebalanced i.e. nerfed the missiles in order to work out the nano nerf in the same expansion. The reverse engineered formula (look here) is sort of difficult for the layman to follow through. I must admit, I could only grasp the gist of it (I'm not a math genius). My biggest problem is that some example figures provided does not seem to tally with the formula, not withstanding what appears to be syntax errors in several. Anyway I digress.

Whats the big deal? In basic English, missile damage is reduced by two major factors, enemy ship's Signature Radius and enemy ship's Speed. Out of these two, the enemy ship's Signature Radius has a slightly greater impact when compared to enemy ship's Speed. You can see this taking effect when missiles hit MWD targets, they hit with better damage.

Now, each missile class have two attributes - Explosion Radius and Explosion Velocity which will counter the damage reduction. Therefore, aim for the Explosion Radius & Velocity as closely as possible to enemy ship's Signature Radius & Speed to get the best damage possible. Your tools to get this done will be via Rigor/Flare rigs, Target painters, Webifier and related implants.

I prefer to illustrate this empirically (from tests), hopefully it's easier for the layman to digest.

Basic stats
Guided Missile Precision : 4
Target Navigation Prediction : 3
ZMA100 implant : -3% missile Exp Radius
PWNAGE painting : 30% to enemy signature radius
Domination Webifier : -50% speed
Missile tpye : Standard Paradise Cruise
Missile damage (w/4x BCS, Cruise 4, Warhead Upgrade 3) : 495 dmg

Enemy stats
Centum Slaughterer
EM Resist - ??
Sig radius - 125m
Orbit Speed - 175m/s

No missile rigs intalled
(Exp Radius = 232m, Exp Velocity = 89.7) >> 120 (152) [202] {263} dmg

() - dmg with 1x Target Painter in use, no web.
[] - dmg with 1x Webifier in use, no painter.
{} - dmg with BOTH 1x Target Painter and 1x Webifier in use.

Rigor rigs
1 rigor (Exp Radius = 197m, Exp Velocity = 89.7) >> 139 (175) [238] {310} dmg
2 rigor (Exp Radius = 168m, Exp Velocity = 89.7) >> 160 (202) [280] {364} dmg
3 rigor (Exp Radius = 142m, Exp Velocity = 89.7) >> 185 (233) [330] {377} dmg

() - dmg with 1x Target Painter in use, no web.
[] - dmg with 1x Webifier in use, no painter.
{} - dmg with BOTH 1x Target Painter and 1x Webifier in use.

Flare rigs
1 Flare (Exp Radius = 232m, Exp Velocity = 103.2) >> 137 (172) [202] dmg
2 Flare (Exp Radius = 232m, Exp Velocity = 118.6) >> 154 (194) [202] dmg
3 Flare (Exp Radius = 232m, Exp Velocity = 136.4) >> 175 (221) [202] dmg

() - dmg with 1x Target Painter in use, no web.
[] - dmg with 1x Webifier in use, no painter.

Mix of Rigor and Flare rigs
2 Rigor, 1 Flare (Exp Radius = 168m, Exp Velocity = 103.2) >> 181 (229) [280] dmg

() - dmg with 1x Target Painter in use, no web.
[] - dmg with 1x Webifier in use, no painter.

So conclusion?

1) 3x Rigor rigs + web + painter is an evil combination if you want to kill cruisers with cruise missiles. It pretty much almost guarantees a 1 volley kill in missions.
2) Using 1x Painter alone isn't as effective, but more practical given the range advantage.
3) 1x Webifier effect outdamages target painting by a significant margin when Rigors are installed, but is disadvantaged by its limited range.
4) This proves that Flare rigs are almost useless (when compared to Rigor rigs) when installed on a cruise missile boat.
5) Looking at the data pattern, use of SW-900 webifier drones may be viable in certain missions.

Update 1: Cleaned and corrected some values.
Update 2: Final misc updates.

Noemi Nagano
Posted - 2009.06.16 18:55:00 - [22]
 

First of all, XR-3200 launchers are MUCH worse than t2 HML with good spec-skills and/or t2 Fury-Missiles. You will see the difference when you try to do some damage on BS with a Drake.

The Raven is a good l4-ship, a very well skilled Drake with t2-HML will be not much worse in many missions though, esp. when the enemy is not having many BS but much small stuff and kinetic is the best or second best damage-type. In all other scenarios a Drake will be slower than a Raven though.

Be prepared, the Raven needs much more skills than the Drake to perform well. Others in this thread have pointed out good fittings and skill-suggestions.

Chainsaw Plankton
IDLE GUNS
IDLE EMPIRE
Posted - 2009.06.16 22:20:00 - [23]
 

Originally by: Noemi Nagano
First of all, XR-3200 launchers are MUCH worse than t2 HML with good spec-skills and/or t2 Fury-Missiles. You will see the difference when you try to do some damage on BS with a Drake.

The Raven is a good l4-ship, a very well skilled Drake with t2-HML will be not much worse in many missions though, esp. when the enemy is not having many BS but much small stuff and kinetic is the best or second best damage-type. In all other scenarios a Drake will be slower than a Raven though.

Be prepared, the Raven needs much more skills than the Drake to perform well. Others in this thread have pointed out good fittings and skill-suggestions.


right but taking ~15 days to train up heavy missiles 5 is 15 days you aren't training for a raven, and from good drake to raven shouldn't take much more then that 15 days.

missiles to 5 (should already be at 4)
cruise missiles to 4 (from scratch)
energy management to 4 (between this and energy systems operations, you probably have a few levels of one or both)
energy systems operations to 5 (see above)
shield compensation to 4 (might have trained this at one point, if not it is only rank 2)
caldari bs 4

and well the rest you can continue training as you are doing level 4s in a raven. (I did say a good drake implying you already had most shield skills to 4, can use t2 bcus, have some missile support skills, and had t2 light drones)

now I don't remember level 3s being all that good for isk, although it could be because I was blitzing the hell out of them going for 5.0 faction standings, trying out amarr ships, and starting an alt. but between refining your drake skills and learning the raven skills you should have enough isk to buy a raven + fittings. and then be able to jump into level 4s and do quite well.

Gavin DeVries
Posted - 2009.06.16 22:39:00 - [24]
 

When I was running level 3 missions, killing everything for bounty, looting everything and salvage everything, I think I averaged about 20-40 million ISK per evening spent running missions. That's typically about 5 hours of mission running. With level 4s, I get a little over 20 million per hour, and everything I do to improve my kill speed increases this number. I was able to afford a Raven with a DG large booster from my level 3 missionrunning.

skeljita
Posted - 2009.06.16 22:40:00 - [25]
 

Edited by: skeljita on 16/06/2009 22:40:04
T2 light drones
T2 capacitor mods and shield hardeners
fair skills in cruise missiles with the other applicable missile skills
3 capacitor control rigs

If you have all that you are good to go

Reangorette Bianie
Posted - 2009.06.17 15:11:00 - [26]
 

Originally by: skeljita
Edited by: skeljita on 16/06/2009 22:40:04
T2 light drones
T2 capacitor mods and shield hardeners
fair skills in cruise missiles with the other applicable missile skills
3 capacitor control rigs

If you have all that you are good to go



I agree but I like amps to save on cap and especially with the missile nerf I'd get skill up in cruise first; use hardeners in the beginning if you must as you need the dps the tank not ever being that good unless you spend billions on deadspace stuff which would only get you ganked anyway.

Omar Khayyam
Minmatar
Posted - 2009.06.18 08:51:00 - [27]
 

you are really making lvl4 mission a big deal but they are not. they are just easy to do with a raven. for newbies, there are setups that you can perma run your x-large shield booster in battleclinic. i recommend you to use this setup until you feel familiar with missions. sure dps sucks but its better than losing your ship.

also note that, drake is really good in lvl4 missions. (with tech2 heavy launchers and always use t2 missiles)

Celestial Spawn
Posted - 2009.06.18 12:12:00 - [28]
 

Level 4 is doable with a Drake but you have to use T2 Fittings and T2 Ammos. To make your life easier, use a Raven or CNR. Very Happy

Chainsaw Plankton
IDLE GUNS
IDLE EMPIRE
Posted - 2009.06.18 20:45:00 - [29]
 

Originally by: skeljita
Edited by: skeljita on 16/06/2009 22:40:04
T2 light drones
T2 capacitor mods and shield hardeners
fair skills in cruise missiles with the other applicable missile skills
3 capacitor control rigs

If you have all that you are good to go



no cccs, rigor rigs!

Chainsaw Plankton
IDLE GUNS
IDLE EMPIRE
Posted - 2009.06.18 20:46:00 - [30]
 

Originally by: Omar Khayyam
you are really making lvl4 mission a big deal but they are not. they are just easy to do with a raven. for newbies, there are setups that you can perma run your x-large shield booster in battleclinic. i recommend you to use this setup until you feel familiar with missions. sure dps sucks but its better than losing your ship.

also note that, drake is really good in lvl4 missions. (with tech2 heavy launchers and always use t2 missiles)


bleh, if you are going to do it that way you might as well stick to the drake Confused


 

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