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blankseplocked [Proposal] Covert cyno's in high sec
 
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Suitonia
Gallente
Genos Occidere
HYDRA RELOADED
Posted - 2009.06.18 13:40:00 - [31]
 

Edited by: Suitonia on 18/06/2009 13:40:16
Sounds good.

Tildes own
Aliastra
Posted - 2009.06.18 23:04:00 - [32]
 

Originally by: Suitonia
Edited by: Suitonia on 18/06/2009 13:40:16
Sounds good.

Lexa Hellfury
Immortal.

Posted - 2009.06.19 00:40:00 - [33]
 


Maximum KILLDEATHRATIO
Minmatar
24th Imperial Crusade

Posted - 2009.06.19 07:20:00 - [34]
 


Herty
The Sexy Carebear Boredom Convention

Posted - 2009.06.19 17:23:00 - [35]
 

Edited by: Herty on 19/06/2009 17:23:18
Its about time carebears got hotdropped.

Leyline777
NailorTech Industries
RAZOR Alliance
Posted - 2009.06.20 04:27:00 - [36]
 

Originally by: Becq Starforged
I'm opposed to this.

The OP suggested that this would limit the defensive use of alt sentries as defensive measures, and that might be true. However, the advantage of using an alt as a sentry over another player is marginal at best, which makes this have fairly little value in that sense.


Since when? Alt scouts are the life blood of dedicated empire pvp corps.

Originally by: Becq Starforged
At the same time, it also magnifies many times over the value of alt acouts (and particularly neutral alt scouts) for the offensive activities. Under this plan, for example, there would be literally no way at all to defend a mining op during wartime, as the WTs would simply scout the op in a neutral alt, then nearly instantly cyno a bomber/recon fleet to the op. Same with missions, gate camps, or any other high-sec activity that doesn't involve station-hugging.


During a war with any decent opponent you shouldnt be doing this anyways, when you are you take your life in your hands and will probably most often loose it (specially if just sitting there mining without scouts of your own.)


Originally by: Becq Starforged
Given that the key player is a neutral party, there would be absolutely no defense to this beyond staying in the station. The new griefer tactic would be to have a neutral alt try to invite his main's WTs into a mission, then drop a fleet on them via cyno.


The carebear tactic would be to not mission with anyone they dont know... oh wait thats common sense?

Originally by: Becq Starforged
To ensure balance, there would have to be two additional restrictions placed on covert cynos used in high-sec, in my opinion. First, they can only be used in 'empty space'. That is, they could be used at a safespot BM, but not at a station, gate, belt, or mission location. (This has the added advantage of preventing the inevitable constant multiple cyno at every key point in Jita.)


This is an interesting idea and i think quite feasible (though imo it should really just trigger localized gate gun aggro/ sentries/ npc ships (that are already spawned) fire. The idea being that sovereign entities dislike people opening portals to anywhere in their space. I dont think you should have gcc period but a temporary aggro to localized area (ie station and not solar system/police) would be very appropriate if fired off on grid. However missions and roid fields etc are fair game imo.)

Originally by: Becq Starforged
Second, the cyno and resulting bridge can only be used by ships from the same corp/alliance as the cyno pilot. To clarify, these restrictions would only affect cynos lit in high-sec.


This is a terrible idea and doesnt make sense mechanics or fluff wise.

Originally by: Becq Starforged
Frankly, I'm against this in any case, but without the above the game would be completely destroyed for the (less intelligent) targets of griefer corps.



fixed

Tempest Inferno
Davy Jones Locker

Posted - 2009.06.20 20:15:00 - [37]
 

IIRC regular cyno fields were restricted to low sec to keep capitals from smart bombing trade stations. I see no reason why covert cynos shouldn't be allowed for the moving of black ops\covert ops ships. Well except for the fact that concord has all of empire space under a network of cyno jammers. Very Happy

Kornashvoknar
Amarr
Ministry of War
Posted - 2009.06.21 00:39:00 - [38]
 

Originally by: Tempest Inferno
IIRC regular cyno fields were restricted to low sec to keep capitals from smart bombing trade stations. I see no reason why covert cynos shouldn't be allowed for the moving of black ops\covert ops ships. Well except for the fact that concord has all of empire space under a network of cyno jammers. Very Happy


which dont counter cov ops cynos...

Uronksur Suth
Posted - 2009.06.21 21:58:00 - [39]
 

I like this idea.

Big Bit
Posted - 2009.06.23 23:21:00 - [40]
 

Edited by: Big Bit on 23/06/2009 23:21:19
What about allowing Jump Freighter to jump to hi-sec?

Xerox WorkCentre
Posted - 2009.06.24 07:44:00 - [41]
 

I like the ideea

Lionel Redstar
Gallente
Pure Skunkworks

Posted - 2009.06.24 07:45:00 - [42]
 

Supported. Give BO some love.

Rivqua
Caldari
Omega Wing
Snatch Victory
Posted - 2009.06.24 07:53:00 - [43]
 

This would definately put black ops BS on the map, increasing the demand by as much as 500% due to both the need to have them set up bridges, as well as all the merc corps needing their BS ops fleet for when you need absolutely positevely kill that jumpy mark.

Dierdra Vaal
Caldari
Veto.
Veto Corp
Posted - 2009.06.24 10:29:00 - [44]
 

Originally by: Big Bit
Edited by: Big Bit on 23/06/2009 23:21:19
What about allowing Jump Freighter to jump to hi-sec?


no.

1) They require regular cynos. Allowing people to make regular cynos in hi-sec makes no sense RP wise(cynojammers etc) and opens up capitals into high sec (and restricting hi-sec cynos to JFs only would be very weird)

2) JFs have a much larger jump range than the blackops, and would allow them to very quickly travel between trade hubs with huuuuuge amounts of cargo space

The covert cyno change is intended to improve high sec combat, while leaving hauling largely unaffected.

ovenproofjet
Caldari
Therapy.
Posted - 2009.06.24 13:07:00 - [45]
 

Edited by: ovenproofjet on 24/06/2009 13:21:34
Edited by: ovenproofjet on 24/06/2009 13:19:17
This is a great idea, really think it would give black ops the final boost they need. Well maybe a gang bonus would help them greatly as they now seem to take on the role of covert gang leader

Friggz
Dirt Nap Squad
Posted - 2009.06.26 15:03:00 - [46]
 

I'd love to see this happen, but I think your downplaying the effect it would have on trade. Yes, its too much for a single trader to make an alt network to go hub to hub... but if players can get together and form banks and stock exchanges, do you really think its beyond possibility a corp could get together and form a jump bridge network and charge traders to use it? A medium sized corp with alts all Cyno V capable would do the trick. Just charge for fuel + a fee to use the bridge. You'd make billions.

So, I'd love to see it, but I think you need some type of assurance we won't see traders using this to neigh-instantly get from one hub to another.

Kasi Kasai
Posted - 2009.06.26 17:26:00 - [47]
 


Syringe
Incura

Posted - 2009.06.26 18:28:00 - [48]
 

Edited by: Syringe on 26/06/2009 18:29:30

Originally by: Becq Starforged

Under this plan, for example, there would be literally no way at all to defend a mining op during wartime, as the WTs would simply scout the op in a neutral alt, then nearly instantly cyno a bomber/recon fleet to the op.

First - I think was asked above - wtf are you doing mining during wartime without adequate protection? There's little to no advantage in this scenario, because as it stands, a good gank squad will just throw tacklers into the system and warp in on top of you.

If the cyno alt pops the cyno right on top of you, pop the alt. He's gotta be in WT gang for cyno, so he'll be shootable (set your overview right). If he pops a cyno at a nearby planet or something, you'll see your WTs pop into system just as if they'd come in a gate and you can get your miners out.

Originally by: Becq Starforged
To ensure balance, there would have to be two additional restrictions placed on covert cynos used in high-sec, in my opinion.


The balance is held in that the target corp would effectively be able resume logistics with the same toolset. There's little/no way that with effective cov cyno hopping, you couldn't move your haulers around.

Edit: now with thumbs up. Also - took me 6 tries to post.

RaveNight
Amarr
Ushra'Khan
Posted - 2009.06.26 18:47:00 - [49]
 

Originally by: Syringe
Edited by: Syringe on 26/06/2009 18:29:30

Originally by: Becq Starforged

Under this plan, for example, there would be literally no way at all to defend a mining op during wartime, as the WTs would simply scout the op in a neutral alt, then nearly instantly cyno a bomber/recon fleet to the op.

First - I think was asked above - wtf are you doing mining during wartime without adequate protection? There's little to no advantage in this scenario, because as it stands, a good gank squad will just throw tacklers into the system and warp in on top of you.

If the cyno alt pops the cyno right on top of you, pop the alt. He's gotta be in WT gang for cyno, so he'll be shootable (set your overview right). If he pops a cyno at a nearby planet or something, you'll see your WTs pop into system just as if they'd come in a gate and you can get your miners out.

Originally by: Becq Starforged
To ensure balance, there would have to be two additional restrictions placed on covert cynos used in high-sec, in my opinion.


The balance is held in that the target corp would effectively be able resume logistics with the same toolset. There's little/no way that with effective cov cyno hopping, you couldn't move your haulers around.

Edit: now with thumbs up. Also - took me 6 tries to post.


The alt cyno ship, so long as it has not engaged in any aggressive action towards "you", and has not given direct assistance (repair) to "the wt's", will not be flagged even if in the wt's fleet.

I agree with disagreeing here - But no, the miners (and/or their protection) would not be able to shoot the cyno if he is not, themself, a wartarget (or conditionally flagged to you).

Kytanos Termek
Caldari
Perkone

Posted - 2009.06.27 17:32:00 - [50]
 

Edited by: Kytanos Termek on 27/06/2009 17:32:28
Supported.

van Uber
Swedish Aerospace Inc
The Kadeshi
Posted - 2009.06.27 21:27:00 - [51]
 


RRNL
Caldari
Posted - 2009.06.27 23:14:00 - [52]
 


Mashie Saldana
Minmatar
Veto Corp
Posted - 2009.06.28 18:12:00 - [53]
 

Originally by: TimMc
Would be fun for empire wars

Kaiden Exeider
Gallente
Posted - 2009.06.29 16:24:00 - [54]
 

This is very much like my "Commercial" cynos and jumpdrive Idea for the jump freighters, which you can read if you check my sig below.

Rajere
Immortalis Inc.
Shadow Cartel
Posted - 2009.06.29 20:37:00 - [55]
 

On one hand, it's pretty much the same as when they changed Cov Cyno's to be usable in cynojammed systems, so there's no reason not to support it. It has nothing to do with the ships themselves, It doesn't change anything about Black Ops at all. All it does is allow the ships to be used in an area where they cannot be utilized currently, just like the change to allow them in cynojammed space allowed their use in sov 0.0 regions with const sov/prevalent cynojammed space.

It allows a subset of players (empire war dec corps) access to a ship class that they currently lack (along with their unique tactics/abilities), and opens up another subset of players (Highsec carebears who get wardec'd) to being victims of a whole new world of griefing/ganking tactics.

On the other hand, do corps who run around decing highsec corps full of carebears/newbies/casuals really need/deserve any new toys? Especially ones which can be utilized to such devastating effect in an environment like empire vs the types of unsuspecting targets that inhabit highsec? Do they really need even more advantages? I mean come on, you're seal clubbing...baby seal clubbing at that. The hardest part of empire wars is finding targets who will undock during a wardec at all, which is why I understand why'd you be interested in adding black ops to your toolbox, they enable so many options and enable you to exploit opportunities for kills that you couldn't accomplish otherwise. But that's kind of the problem.

If they allow Covert Cyno's to be used in highsec space, the first war dec corp that actually uses them properly is going to create so much drama and result in such a massive amount of carebear tears/forum whines to the point that eventually CCP will have to change something, and CCP's method of balancing something is to nerf it and everything associated with it into the stone age. Then on top of that, they also do the simple, minor change like "whoops, ok lets roll that back, you can't use cov cyno's in highsec any more", ya know the thing that would have solved the problem alone, without destroying several entire ship line ups in the process? But by that point you're left with a ship that has 3 highslots, a 1LY jump range with JDC V, that requires 500m3 worth of fuel to jump itself to a "covert" cyno which lasts 5 minutes, now pulses an ECM burst every 20 seconds jamming everyone on grid, can only be lit by Blockade Runners (who can no longer fit a covert ops cloak), which also broadcasts it's location in the local chat of every system in the constellation every 3 seconds to remind everyone what you're doing and where.

Then CCP will say "ok highsec carebears stop crying we fixed it, the bad men can't light covert cyno's in high sec anymore" to which everyone responds "gee thanks, but if you didn't notice, with all the other nerfs, why would anyone ever bother to fly a black ops, or light a covert cyno anywhere, much less in high sec?" which CCP will respond "Well see there you go, why did we waste those man hours implementing these changes when the problem solved itself anyway? We can't justify allocating any more dev/review time on this until winter expansion 2012, and by 2012, we of course mean 2014, which is when we'll actually get around to adding the fuel bay we've been promising we'd add for the last 4 expansions in a row."

Iwant Urstuff
Amarr
Iwant Urstuff Corp
Posted - 2009.06.29 23:23:00 - [56]
 

I find this highly intriguing, but I think one relevant point has been missed, Drug running. Those Blue and Red pills would be super easy to get into Hi Sec now. Not sure if that should be made easy. I will reserve my option to support or not support until somebody addresses this possible issue.

Twisted Evil


Mister Xerox
Posted - 2009.06.30 14:02:00 - [57]
 

Edited by: Mister Xerox on 30/06/2009 14:01:58
Since no capital can use a covert cyno... I don't see why this could not be possible.


Amasai
Starfire Oasis
Thalion Syndicate
Posted - 2009.07.07 04:12:00 - [58]
 

I was under the impression that drugs, currently, aren't used much because people don't want to deal with the negative affects.
IF this is true then they need a boost, and also they wouldn't sell much in high sec anyway, there by negating potential imbalance issues

Molock Saronen
Posted - 2009.07.07 11:33:00 - [59]
 


Dave Meltdown
Viziam
Posted - 2009.07.07 12:09:00 - [60]
 



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