open All Channels
seplocked Test Server Feedback
blankseplocked Time to fix some recons?
 
This thread is older than 90 days and has been locked due to inactivity.


 
Pages: [1] 2

Author Topic

Nostredeus Morphius
Minmatar
Sebiestor Tribe
Posted - 2009.06.10 20:43:00 - [1]
 

Edited by: Nostredeus Morphius on 10/06/2009 20:45:55
I think to be fair it is time to fix some of the recons, no I am not talking about the Caldari ones do not bring them up unless you are saying something other than "oh my gosh we are teh mega nerfed and can't jam at ludicrous range any moar gief buff".

In my opinion Amarr is the benchmark here, their recons are by far the most balanced. (I am mainly talking about the curse the pilgrim may need some slight work)


Discuss...

Karentaki
Gallente
Oberon Incorporated
Morsus Mihi
Posted - 2009.06.10 20:58:00 - [2]
 

Agreed! Fix arazu please. This issue has only been coming up for... like... the past year.

Grarr Dexx
Amarr
Kumovi
The G0dfathers
Posted - 2009.06.10 22:06:00 - [3]
 

Mah Pilgrim needs some love!

Max Tux
Posted - 2009.06.11 01:09:00 - [4]
 

recons are fine in their planned roles,

Razu can damp a single ship to a range which it can point outside ( train the damp spec skill)

Lachesis, pretty much the same - fine IMO

Rapier - great ship can tackle a single target from well outside web range and use its speed to its advantage.

Huginn - could maybe use a little more grid, but apart from that fine

Curse - great ship

Pilgrim - no real issues fits the cloaky curse role well

Rook - fine for small enagments

falcon - fleet support, much closer range now but still has a role.

Recons arn't designed for being able to take on a fleet solo, they are fleet ships. Each recon by itself can only realistically take on one ship and be sure to get out alive. Ok the rook and falcon can get lucky and take on 2 ships and get out, but not reliably. ( lets move this away from ECM i sense it could go very down hill).

We run recon gangs, and they can be very effective as part of a well rounded gang.

There is no problem with recons if they are used in their correct role IMO,
I'll let you / other people be more specific about what is wrong with the ships and or flame me for saying they shouldn't be i-win ships


Rordan D'Kherr
Amarr
Posted - 2009.06.11 08:21:00 - [5]
 

Someone missed the whole recon nerf part long and not so long ago.
Amarr has the best recons atm, hands down. But asking for more balancing leads into more desaster, that tells my experience.

Escobar Noreaga
Amarr
Rionnag Alba
Northern Coalition.
Posted - 2009.06.11 09:55:00 - [6]
 

i dont know if they need fixed tbh. things have changed a lot since ive started flying em.

i used to love the arazu till the damp nerf (good lord that was a harsh one - needed but harsh)
lachesis - meh (definatly needs something else) - blaster boat close range better tank?

curse has always been a solid performer and all recons should aspire to be as good as this ship.
pilgrim - always used it as a 0.0 to/from empire stealth hauler till i got into transports

rapier - zomg rapier primary!
huggin - dont see too many tbh

falcon - jammed [email protected]#$%
rook - definatly much better then it used to and definatly viable (primary!)

one thing though, get rid of that damn buttugly engine thing sticking out of that lovely hull.
god thats always annoyed me.

anywho

p.s. nerf titans

Max Tux
Posted - 2009.06.11 12:15:00 - [7]
 

Edited by: Max Tux on 11/06/2009 14:26:33
You still haven't mentioned what exactly you think is wrong with them. They all have a role, and its not dps, in a well rounded gang they are fine.

saying that the ship is called primary doesn't mean its a bad ship....

Gypsio III
Dirty Filthy Perverts
Posted - 2009.06.11 14:02:00 - [8]
 

I'm a big fan of the Rook now. Ok, without the cloak of the Falcon it can't scout and probe, but ~250 DPS (fitting dependent and excluding drones) of selectable damage type to 100 km is really rather nice in a typical small-gang engagement.

Arengor
Redarmy Special Forces
Posted - 2009.06.11 14:54:00 - [9]
 

Yes, each ship has it role.
But some of them can perform better then others.

Arazu and Lachesis are worst ones.

Max Tux
Posted - 2009.06.11 22:14:00 - [10]
 

its quite easy to point at a ship and say "its the worst" but what about it don't u like, how do you think it could be improved? what do you want it to do now that it can't currently do?

Merin Ryskin
Peregrine Industries
Posted - 2009.06.12 03:26:00 - [11]
 

There are only three problems with recons:


1) The split weapons and tight grid on combat recons. Without effective dps, you've got no advantage over a force recon, and with split slots/bonuses, you don't have effective dps. The Huginn and Lachesis need to lose their gun bonuses, and gain two more missile hardpoints + a second missile bonus.

2) The Pilgrim possibly needs a range bonus for nos/neuts. There are good arguments for either side here, but since it's a popular request, it should at least be considered.

3) The Falcon has been massively overnerfed. If it's going to be brought down to the level of the others in ewar, it needs to gain the combat abilities of the other three. That means a non-comedy bonus (lol hybrid damage), a proper drone bay (10m3 is only good for preventing yourself from cloaking), and enough grid/cpu to fit weapons and a tank. Or just un-nerf it and change the hybrid damage bonus back to ECM optimal, but I don't think that is going to be a popular solution...

Clinically
Gallente
ANZAC ALLIANCE
Posted - 2009.06.12 03:56:00 - [12]
 

Edited by: Clinically on 12/06/2009 03:57:12
Edited by: Clinically on 12/06/2009 03:56:28


The gallente recons need an adjustment to their damp bonuses. Both the Lachy and the zu are quite fragile ships, as it currently stands, it makes far more sense to replace the damps with shield extenders so you can actually hold a target down long enough for support to arrive.

More than 1 ship you'd like to engage (ie. scram one, avoid the other)? Forget it, all your damps are required to keep one ship outside of engagement range. Would be nice if the zu and lachy could hold and damp one target to 40kms targeting range and damp another down to the same range at the same time.

A 7.50% bonus to RSDs should do the trick.

Amarr recons are fine, Caldari recons are fine and I don't know enough about flying a minnie recon to comment.

Max Tux
Posted - 2009.06.12 08:15:00 - [13]
 

Edited by: Max Tux on 12/06/2009 11:07:27
you have to remember that the recon's aren't designed to be solo-boats.

although i believe you do have a point, ( with exception to caldari and amarr) there isn't much advantage of flying the combat, over the force recon. the curse gains the neut range ( which the pilgrim doesn't need as it can sneak up on a target, if you give hte pilgrim the neut range you would need to remove the 20% per level bonus to neuts/nos.

falcon potentially could do with a better drone bay but i don't think it should be a point that should be pressed, falcons are still designed to act at long range ie greater than 70km, so a dronebay isn't much use unless it can hold sentries Twisted Evil

on second thoughts there are advantages to the combat recons over the force recons, they do have more DPS ( although still not much) in most cases the cov-ops cloak is more of an advantage, and so you are looking for something that makes up loosing it, but in a gang you shouldn't have trouble with DPS.

As for the Arazu's damps, i think that could eb considered overpowered, ( and before you say the falcon can lock down two targets, it can't 100%, if the arazu does get a strength bonus it shouldn't be above 5% per/level. it is quite capable of lcoking down a single target, but requires support to do more, which is fine IMO.

Aylara
Posted - 2009.06.12 10:11:00 - [14]
 

Originally by: Max Tux
you have to remember that the recon's are designed to be solo-boats.


Really? Humm, I honestly thought that recons are used for scouting and tackling for the gang, in raids!

Well, i guess it will save some of people's time if CCP makes a compendium with all the "supposed to" things.

Max Tux
Posted - 2009.06.12 11:08:00 - [15]
 

Originally by: Aylara
Originally by: Max Tux
you have to remember that the recon's are designed to be solo-boats.


Really? Humm, I honestly thought that recons are used for scouting and tackling for the gang, in raids!

Well, i guess it will save some of people's time if CCP makes a compendium with all the "supposed to" things.


sorry i miss typed meant to say "arn't" corrected in my post

Vigaz
Posted - 2009.06.12 12:43:00 - [16]
 

Falcon damage bonus/drone bay should be checked.

Let me post few options with out the intention to troll/flame:
option 1: change 10m3 drone bay to 25m3. more close to other recons imo (min value in the class is 40m3).
option 2: remove 10m3 drone bay, add optimal hybrid bonus.
option 3: remove 10m3 drone bay, swap hybrid bonus to Rook missile bonus (rof+velocity) with 3 hardpoint for launchers.

ECM range/strength/whatever is fine.

Neutrino Sunset
Bene Gesserit ChapterHouse
Sanctuary Pact
Posted - 2009.06.12 18:07:00 - [17]
 

If Recons can't be considered solo boats then what on earth in this game can?

The term 'recon' could be taken to mean something a bit more involved than just jumping through each gate 15 seconds ahead of the blob you know!

Max Tux
Posted - 2009.06.12 20:01:00 - [18]
 

its an MMO, you meant to work with people :D some of the recons can be used solo, but their real power is in gangs so people complaining because they can't solo very well is wrong....

OMGNOTANOTHERALT
Posted - 2009.06.12 21:25:00 - [19]
 

I agree that recons need some balancing, specifically, as people have said, the combat recons... other than price there is no reason to fly them over force recons, with the Curse being an exception because its bonus wildly different from the pilgrim.

I think gallente recons could perhaps benefit from improved sensor damp effectiveness,
Caldari recons are fine, apart from the combat recon discrepancy mentioned above,
Minmatar recons are, I believe, fine... perhaps a web strength bonus could be good but perhaps a bit much,
Amarr recons are fine with respect to the combat recon discrepancy, however the pilgrim has some deep-routed flaws because of its range limitations.

Max Tux
Posted - 2009.06.12 22:40:00 - [20]
 

Originally by: OMGNOTANOTHERALT


I think gallente recons could perhaps benefit from improved sensor damp effectiveness,
Caldari recons are fine, apart from the combat recon discrepancy mentioned above,
Minmatar recons are, I believe, fine... perhaps a web strength bonus could be good but perhaps a bit much,
Amarr recons are fine with respect to the combat recon discrepancy, however the pilgrim has some deep-routed flaws because of its range limitations.


pilgrim is fine, cov-ops cloak means it can get close and tracking distruptors make it pretty much unhittable if they are speed scripted.

adding a web strength bonus would mean either removing a bonus, or adding another to all the races. its quite possible to fit duel webs on a rapier which is pretty effective.

maybe the gal's could do with a slight change, maybe change the 5% per /level to 7.5% but apart from that there isn't much wrong with them.

you know the nerf bat will hit the ball on the wrong side if we just say " they need fixing"

try to be specific about what they don't do and what you want them to do

Karentaki
Gallente
Oberon Incorporated
Morsus Mihi
Posted - 2009.06.12 23:14:00 - [21]
 

Originally by: Max Tux
Razu can damp a single ship to a range which it can point outside ( train the damp spec skill)

Lachesis, pretty much the same - fine IMO



So how is that more useful than... say... a T1 frig, or an interceptor, or a falcon fitted with a point, or... well... just about any other tackler in the game. Sure it can't get shot at by that ship, but if you need a 1:1 relationship of arazus to enemy ships in order to be effective, you may as well just bring the same ships as the enemy and have a better tank, more DPS, and maybe even be able to kill one of them.

The reason people spend 6 months training for, and 100 mill buying a ship is because it is better at its role than almost any cheaper ship. When you can get the same performance from an interceptor, it is kind of redundant.

Max Tux
Posted - 2009.06.12 23:23:00 - [22]
 

Originally by: Karentaki

So how is that more useful than... say... a T1 frig, or an interceptor, or a falcon fitted with a point, or... well... just about any other tackler in the game. Sure it can't get shot at by that ship, but if you need a 1:1 relationship of arazus to enemy ships in order to be effective, you may as well just bring the same ships as the enemy and have a better tank, more DPS, and maybe even be able to kill one of them.

The reason people spend 6 months training for, and 100 mill buying a ship is because it is better at its role than almost any cheaper ship. When you can get the same performance from an interceptor, it is kind of redundant.


in a gang you won't need 1 to 1, thats the point, when was the last time you saw a gang with all the same ships?

and in reference to the

Originally by: Karentaki

So how is that more useful than... say... a T1 frig, or an interceptor, or a falcon fitted with a point, or... well... just about any other tackler in the game.


if you could kindly point me in the direction of the tech 1 frig that can put a standard tech 2 point to 58km ( when overloaded), 48 km standard, and a scram to 18km (21km overloaded)

Naomi Knight
Amarr
Posted - 2009.06.13 09:15:00 - [23]
 

Yeah fix falcon it needs more dps.

Grarr Dexx
Amarr
Kumovi
The G0dfathers
Posted - 2009.06.13 14:07:00 - [24]
 

Originally by: Naomi Knight
Yeah fix falcon it needs more dps.


haha

Neutrino Sunset
Bene Gesserit ChapterHouse
Sanctuary Pact
Posted - 2009.06.13 19:38:00 - [25]
 

Originally by: Max Tux
its an MMO, you meant to work with people :D some of the recons can be used solo, but their real power is in gangs so people complaining because they can't solo very well is wrong....


My definition of an MMO is a game where I get to kill other real players rather than bots. I suppose if you are that way inclined you could find value in a definition that maintains that you have to blob up to do anything useful at all ...

but I like it my way better.


Karentaki
Gallente
Oberon Incorporated
Morsus Mihi
Posted - 2009.06.13 21:05:00 - [26]
 

Originally by: Max Tux
Originally by: Karentaki

So how is that more useful than... say... a T1 frig, or an interceptor, or a falcon fitted with a point, or... well... just about any other tackler in the game. Sure it can't get shot at by that ship, but if you need a 1:1 relationship of arazus to enemy ships in order to be effective, you may as well just bring the same ships as the enemy and have a better tank, more DPS, and maybe even be able to kill one of them.

The reason people spend 6 months training for, and 100 mill buying a ship is because it is better at its role than almost any cheaper ship. When you can get the same performance from an interceptor, it is kind of redundant.


in a gang you won't need 1 to 1, thats the point, when was the last time you saw a gang with all the same ships?

Well, last time I checked a BS could pretty much melt any recon if it was in range, so either you damp/jam all the enemies, or you say goodbye to your arazu. Since an arazu is clearly only meant to be able to damp one target, you need a 1:1 ratio if you want your arazus to survive. That or you need extremely separated targets, which kind of negates the point of fighting several enemies.

Originally by: Max Tux

Originally by: Karentaki

So how is that more useful than... say... a T1 frig, or an interceptor, or a falcon fitted with a point, or... well... just about any other tackler in the game.


if you could kindly point me in the direction of the tech 1 frig that can put a standard tech 2 point to 58km ( when overloaded), 48 km standard, and a scram to 18km (21km overloaded)

Sorry, recons are meant to be used in gangs. I am assuming you can get a half-decent warp-in. Range is a decent bonus, but not one worth 100 mill. If you could kindly point me to the shop where you can buy an arazu for the price of a T1 frig, a point, an MWD, and a couple of overdrives/nanofibres then you might have a point.

All your arguments do is nit-pick with small points. You haven't actually suggested a situation where an arazu would be better than a ceptor, or even a T1 frig.

Max Tux
Posted - 2009.06.13 21:15:00 - [27]
 

so you want the arazu to be able to damp 2 targets ... what happens if one approaches you?

Originally by: Karentaki

All your arguments do is nit-pick with small points. You haven't actually suggested a situation where an arazu would be better than a ceptor, or even a T1 frig.


fighting a rapier? falcon? rook? scorpian? curse?


Tintifish
The Scope
Posted - 2009.06.13 22:38:00 - [28]
 

Edited by: Tintifish on 13/06/2009 22:41:53
Edited by: Tintifish on 13/06/2009 22:38:26
Main problem with the Arazu/lachesis. The cloaky arazu is obviously a huge advantage but if you just want them for this, bring a cov ops. After they have decloaked, here are some stats, all approx and using a quickly worked out fitting. Notes on each fitting i used are beneath. My skills are 5/5 in ship skills, 5/4 in damp skills.

Factor | Celestis | Arazu | Lachesis
Price | 5m | 110m | 50m
max DPS | 200 | 200 | 250
EHP | 16k | 24.6k | 18.8k
Damp power | 3x 48.9% |4x 48.9% | 4-5x 48.9%
Utility slots| 1 |1(cloak) | 0
Cap raw | 1055+8.8 |1200+11.6|1167+11.3
Cap time | 3m 5s | 2m 41s | 1m 26s

Obvious recon advantage - Scram range +100%!

DPS: Celestis and arazu with 3x dual 150mm II. Lachesis with 3x HM II, 2x dual 150mm II. All with full drone bays and faction ammo.
EHP: Celestis with 800mm RT plate and DCU II. Arazu with 1600mm plate, DCU II, EANM II, lots of pg due to small guns. Lachesis L800mm RT plate, DCU II, EANM II. All unrigged.
Damps: All unrigged, seemed to complicate things more for minimal difference. Would actually mean the celestis is probably very even despite one less due to an extra rig slot but one less damp.
Cap: I have paid little attention at all to cap in these fittings trying to keep things simple and even. The arazu has an extra low so gets a CPR II fitted to increase its time. However, its easy to see how the larger number of damps adversely affects the cap out time. These setups all have an mwd fitted.

Put in context:
Take the lachesis in a small gang situation as opposed to celestis.
1) Celestis has slightly faster align time, so arrives there a second earlier. They both have the same speed and burn toward the target.
2) The target(dominix) is 100km away so the celestis has to move 12km before it can engage, whereas the lachesis locks and damps immediately. The celestis does, however, lock 0.1s quicker :).
3) Once they are both in optimal damp range, the lachesis uses 4 damps and the celestis uses 3, both range scripted. He is sensor boosted, as is normal. The celestis damps him to 50km, the lachesis to 47.4km.
4) The lachesis sits to orbit at 45km - max scram range. This could be an advantage if you werent in a gang, so the intys have already scrammed him. The celestis burns on to 20km to scram.
5) Start laying down damage. Due to the lachesis' range he is doing about 180 dps, whereas the celestis is closer, hitting about 160.
6) The domi primaries the recons, for obvious reasons. They have very similar EHP, so the only advantage is that the lachesis is at range, further for drones to travel.
7) Of course, by this time they're both very low on cap(celestis had to mwd further) and having to play the damps carefully, so are both damping similar amounts. They have no cap to mwd away.
8) Both warp out when damage gets to much, or die (celestis warps faster!)

So, why use a lachesis? Longer range...but still in pulse range, and they're both out of blaster so a bit meh. Thats about it. Ofc if you can rely on your intys, you would both sit at 65km, maybe whack a lock time script or two in and there would be literally nothing to call between these two.
Arazu on the other has the obvious advantage of cloaking...hmm thats it. It'll still be the same once its uncloaked. IE, only use an arazu over celestis if you're running a cloaking recon gang.

As a side note, the people saying damps are fine because they take one ship out the fight, please look at the lock range that domi has. 47k = out of fight? Lol.

Max Tux
Posted - 2009.06.13 23:58:00 - [29]
 

Edited by: Max Tux on 14/06/2009 00:03:49

arazu/ lachesis can be switched around in the below comparison ( arazu is easier to type than lachesis)

Good detailed comparison, i'll give you that, and realistic numbers.

BUT, its quite easy to fit a cap booster on a Lachesis, so the idea of running out of cap seems a little odd to me. Maybe yes the RSD's ( modules not the recon's) could do with a slight cap reduction.

with range scripts i'm getting 27km for a single sensor booster domi...( did you use scripts correctly?) a 3 damp arazu can damp a 200km sniper ( duel sensor booster apoc in this case) to 35km....

but using your numbers
The Celestis can damp the target to 47KM you say? and yet it has to MWD to 24km to point, thus being in range.( even using the 27km number its still in range)

The arazu can sit outside target range and point ( using your numbers or mine) thus making it more useful.

Originally by: Tintifish
As a side note, the people saying damps are fine because they take one ship out the fight, please look at the lock range that domi has. 47k = out of fight? Lol.


i never said it could take it out the fight, ( at least i didn't intend to ) i stated that it can point from a range which makes it untargetable.

and anyway its less than 47km according to my math, and still there are plenty of ships that can engage outside of 47km and be effective.( even more that can engage ouside of 27km)

even a ship that can target 249km undamped can only target 43km with 3 bonused damps on him, ( spec skill to 4)

Tintifish
The Scope
Posted - 2009.06.14 12:51:00 - [30]
 

Youre right, checked in EFT, sorry :)


Pages: [1] 2

This thread is older than 90 days and has been locked due to inactivity.


 


The new forums are live

Please adjust your bookmarks to https://forums.eveonline.com

These forums are archived and read-only