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Rezark
Minmatar
MicroFunks
Posted - 2009.06.08 16:46:00 - [1]
 

Edited by: Rezark on 08/06/2009 16:46:04
Hi folks,

Just wondering if Minmatar Battleships are viable for PVP. I've heard a lot of negative things about them in that regard from various people. I'm hoping to get heavily into PVP down the road, so I would like to start making a few decisions. I'd rather stick to Min if I can, since I have turrets trained to a decent level and prefer my racial ships.

Any thoughts/comments/suggestions?

Anddeh McNab
Cadre Assault Force
Posted - 2009.06.08 16:49:00 - [2]
 

I'm not a BS PvP pilot myself but from what I hear Tempest is widely regarded as pretty fail, Maelstrom is okish and 'phoon is goldy if you have about 4 billion SP.

AstroPhobic
Minmatar
Holding Corp
Posted - 2009.06.08 17:01:00 - [3]
 

@ OP: thread title made me lol, if that's any gauge for their viability

Maybe you can 'lol' yourself.

Liang Nuren
Posted - 2009.06.08 17:04:00 - [4]
 

You won't be kicked out of any fleets for bringing a Minnie BS. At least, I don't think so. :)

-Liang

Traderboz
SlaveMart
Posted - 2009.06.08 17:13:00 - [5]
 

Depends on the type of fleet. Tempest makes a cheaper sniper, Mael is a better sniper but pricier, Phoon is my favorite for RR gangs.

Liang Nuren
Posted - 2009.06.08 17:16:00 - [6]
 

Originally by: Traderboz
Depends on the type of fleet. Tempest makes a cheaper sniper, Mael is a better sniper but pricier, Phoon is my favorite for RR gangs.


Yah, IMO the Phoon makes the best RR BS... maybe the Domi beats it but I can fly that too. /flex

-Liang

Omarvelous
Destry's Lounge
Important Internet Spaceship League
Posted - 2009.06.08 17:27:00 - [7]
 

Edited by: Omarvelous on 08/06/2009 17:33:54
I fly all 4 race's BS. I love the Tempest for Piracy.

Damage Control II
2x Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane II
1600mm Rolled Tungsten Plate
Large Armor Rep II
Gyrostabilizer II

100MN Microwarpdrive I
Warp Disruptor II
2x Sensor Booster II
Heavy Cap Booster II

6x Dual 425mm AutoCannon II
2x Heavy Unstable Energy Neuts

3x Projectile Ambit Rigs

5x Hammerhead II, 5x Warrior II

Locks down battlecruisers in 3 seconds. Dual neuts have saved me from tacklers, and crushed opponent's active tanks.

EFT Stats look bad when you look at raw damage, but you're not wasting time getting into damage range like a blaster boat, you have enough utility slots to quickly attack a ship on gates unlike the Amarr BS, and you move quicker than the other armor tanked races so you can avoid webs and scrams and get out if things go south.

I like being able to pick my ammo for the target's resist hole (I'm always flying with a covert ops scout), ambit rigs allow you to engage in a wide range of combat with good tracking.

Minmatar don't armor tank as well as the other races, nor do they hit as hard. They make up for it with a nice slot layout (good balance of low and mid slots for quick tackling and tank). I usually orbit around 20km firing away, and if the target is zooming at me I neut them and maintain range.

They also RR pretty well.

Damage Control II
2x Energized Adaptive Nano II
2x 1600mm Plate
Gyrostab II

100MN MWD I
Warp Disruptor II
LADAR ECCM
LADAR ECCM/Web/Sensor Booster/2nd Cap Injector
Heavy Cap Injector II

6x 800mm Autocannon II
2x Large Armor Remote rep II

3x Trimark Armor Pump Rigs

5x combat drones

Decent tank, flexible options for cap stability or eccm strength, quick locks, or webs.

*EDIT* There are things that EFT won't show for combat effectiveness. I just like how BS autocannons with ambit rigs hit a sweet spot for damage at 1/2 falloff. The tracking on autocannons is pretty good, and at 1/2 falloff (around 17-20km) you're still doing about 80% of your damage. Lasers are nice but scorch is limited to EM holes, and doesn't track as well (not to mention the ships lack the midslot flexibility to add tactical options like a web), and I don't get similar blaster damage at the 17-20 km range unless I'm in my Rokh shooting null ammo out of my neutron blaster cannons (with the Rokh's slow speed, slow lock, and lack of utility high slots).

I'm not saying the Minmatar BS are the best, I find them balanced for the type of combat I like to fly in, and I think the forums really underrate their performance. I've never been able to enjoy the tactical flexibility that I can with Minmatar BS.

Omarvelous
Destry's Lounge
Important Internet Spaceship League
Posted - 2009.06.08 17:48:00 - [8]
 

Edited by: Omarvelous on 08/06/2009 17:48:29
Typhoon:

Damage Control II
Adaptive Nano Plate II
EANM II
2x 1600mm Plate
2x Ballistic control II

100MN MWD I
Warp Disruptor II
PWNAGE Target Painter
2nd PWNAGE Target Painter/Web/Sensor Booster II

4x Siege Missile Launcher II
4x Dual 650mm Autocannon II

3x Trimark

5x Ogre II

105,000 effective HP
1111 DPS - able to select damage
Capless
Target painting for self and gang
Cheap (the trimarks cost more than the rest of the ship setup). If you're on a budget - forgo the trimarks for ambit rigs or no rigs.

RR Phoon:
Damage Control II
Adaptive Nano Plate II
EANM II
4x 1600mm Plate

100MN MWD I
Warp Disruptor II
Heavy Electrochem Cap Injector
Heavy Cap Injector II

4x Dual 650mm Autocannon II
4x Large Remote Armor Rep II

3x Trimark

5x Ogre II or Large Rep bots

150,000 effective HP
4x RR
~500 dps (ogre II's provide 1/2 that number though)


CHEAP Nano Phoon for 0.0 fun:

3x Nanofiber II
2x Gyrostab II
2x Ballistic Control II

100MN MWD I
Warp Disruptor II
Invul Field II
Large Shield Extender II

4x Siege Missile Launcher II
4x Dual 650mm AC II

3x Ambit rigs

5x Berseker II

1160 DPS
No Tank - EHP is really low due to no DCU II
Accelerates to 1440 m/s in 11 seconds - goes over 2000 m/s overheated.

Cheap - always stay at 18km to maximize firepower, and avoid webs/scrams.

Liang Nuren
Posted - 2009.06.08 17:55:00 - [9]
 

Originally by: Omarvelous

Tempest
6x D425, 2x Neut
MWD, Disruptor, 2x SeBo, Hvy Cap BOoster
LAR, Plate, 2x EANM, DC, Gyro
Ambits
Hammers, Warriors



IMO it could use a TC in place of the second SeBo. That said, it's not terribly disimilar from my fit.

It's been a while since I flew a pest, since they're just totally underwhelming IMO. On the one hand, they can be treated essentially as a supersized BC, but on the other you can't do that with the plate fits. The real kick in the nuts is that there's nothing you can really do in the pest that you can't do better in a Phoon... if you have the SP to do it (I very nearly do at... errrrm 37M SP I think?). :-/

Quote:
EFT Stats look bad when you look at raw damage, but you're not wasting time getting into damage range like a blaster boat, you have enough utility slots to quickly attack a ship on gates unlike the Amarr BS, and you move quicker than the other armor tanked races so you can avoid webs and scrams and get out if things go south.


EFT actually understates how bad it looks - it doesn't include the damage lost to hit quality degradation in falloff. With regards to "quickly attacking" - I assume you refer to SeBos? Why not have a frig or recon on the gate for that? As to moving faster ... you're still slower than cruisers and battlecruisers, so you won't be avoiding tackles. Yes, you're 5% faster than some other BS's, but that doesn't help unless that's *ALL* they fly. :-/

Quote:
I like being able to pick my ammo for the target's resist hole (I'm always flying with a covert ops scout), ambit rigs allow you to engage in a wide range of combat with good tracking.


I find that trying to pick your ammo is generally a waste of time... time and again I've gotten better damage with higher base damage than "right" damage types. This is especially obvious if you use artillery alot.

Quote:
I usually orbit around 20km firing away, and if the target is zooming at me I neut them and maintain range.


Engaging at 20km seems like a waste to me, even with ambits. Either you have the DPS to kill them or you generally don't engage in the first place.

Quote:
They also RR pretty well. ... Decent tank, flexible options for cap stability or eccm strength, quick locks, or webs.


Please use a phoon for this. It's far superior.

Quote:
I just like how BS autocannons with ambit rigs hit a sweet spot for damage at 1/2 falloff. The tracking on autocannons is pretty good, and at 1/2 falloff (around 17-20km) you're still doing about 80% of your damage.


The "sweet spot" for autocannons is still pretty pathetic damage.

Quote:
Lasers are nice but scorch is limited to EM holes


Which isn't that big a deal with omnitanking...

Quote:
and doesn't track as well


Pulse Abaddons w/MF track as well as a Neutron Thron with Null. That's pretty good tracking, really.

Quote:
(not to mention the ships lack the midslot flexibility to add tactical options like a web)

4 mids on an Abaddon isn't enough for a web? There aren't other ships in your gang?

Quote:
and I don't get similar blaster damage at the 17-20 km range unless I'm in my Rokh shooting null ammo out of my neutron blaster cannons (with the Rokh's slow speed, slow lock, and lack of utility high slots).

Yeah, I have been looking at the Rokh with blasters, and I think you'll frequently find that blasters are (again) one of those things people complain about.

Quote:
I'm not saying the Minmatar BS are the best, I find them balanced for the type of combat I like to fly in, and I think the forums really underrate their performance. I've never been able to enjoy the tactical flexibility that I can with Minmatar BS.

They're not the best, but they are generally the worst for the general purpose BS's are put to (BS gang, RR BS, Fleets, etc). However, they are battleships, and no FC will turn them down - even if they're not the "best"

-Liang

Liang Nuren
Posted - 2009.06.08 18:23:00 - [10]
 

Edited by: Liang Nuren on 08/06/2009 18:23:13
Note that many complaints with Minmatar battleships effectively boil down to one of two complaints:
- The Minmatar battle ethos really falls apart at the battleship level because "versatility" and "speed" aren't really something that you "need" at the battleship level.
- They're not Amarr and don't use lasers. This speaks more about how uberly awesome lasers are than how bad projectiles are.

Problems with the Tempest itself (neglecting interracial comparisons) boil down to:
- It's not as good of at range as a Maelstrom
- It's not as good close up as a Phoon

-Liang

Ed: Clarification regarding lasers vs projectiles

Omarvelous
Destry's Lounge
Important Internet Spaceship League
Posted - 2009.06.08 18:32:00 - [11]
 

Originally by: Liang Nuren
I can't step by step quote everything damnit! Laughing


I know the DPS looks bad - but remember the ship has 2 neuts to break an active tank. If its buffer tanked, you can disengage if you're not going to win. I find no other race's BS can disengage as well as Minmatar BS can. It saves me when I get blobbed.

Abaddon is tier 3 - its actually a great ship - a little slow for my low-sec piracy tastes, but its got a fantastic slot allotment, and bonuses. Probably the best General duty BS in game. If its blobbed it dies a slow death. No utility slots means it isn't neuting anyone either. Neuts have saved me against tacklers countless times if they're not breaking active tanks (which I see in low sec due to gates).

I know the RR phoon is better - I gave the 4 rep setup - I just wanted to show you could RR with a pest if you needed to.

Armor Omni tanking, I think your point is generally correct with T1 armor tanks, but I also use the Tempest to attack support ships that are T2 cruisers with resist holes.

The dual sensor boosters are for low sec work. Sure a HICtor will get the initial point, but being able to lock quickly and neut the target to keep it from burning away from the gate is pretty crucial.
In 0.0 I'd fit a web and ECCM.

I think my argument for why I like Minmatar BS is they have a good mix of qualities for low sec piracy.

They have a lot of mids for quick tackles. Can't use smaller faster locking ships on gates (not everyone has an arazu alt in fleet).

They have utility slots for heavy neuts.

They're more maneuverable than heavily plated and trimarked BS, so they can dicatate their raneg against them better. Assuming your gang is as balanced as their and has its own support/anti-support.

Gank and Tank BS - Amarr, Gallente, shield tanked Caldari

Flexible ships that are good at many things including throwing damage at a variety of ranges while using 2 heavy neuts - Minmatar.

*shrug* I like them fine, and I like the other racial BS as well.

Omarvelous
Destry's Lounge
Important Internet Spaceship League
Posted - 2009.06.08 18:33:00 - [12]
 

Edited by: Omarvelous on 08/06/2009 18:33:25
Originally by: Liang Nuren
Edited by: Liang Nuren on 08/06/2009 18:23:13
Note that many complaints with Minmatar battleships effectively boil down to one of two complaints:
- The Minmatar battle ethos really falls apart at the battleship level because "versatility" and "speed" aren't really something that you "need" at the battleship level.
- They're not Amarr and don't use lasers. This speaks more about how uberly awesome lasers are than how bad projectiles are.

Problems with the Tempest itself (neglecting interracial comparisons) boil down to:
- It's not as good of at range as a Maelstrom
- It's not as good close up as a Phoon

-Liang

Ed: Clarification regarding lasers vs projectiles


Whats the superior close range Phoon setup vs a close range tempest setup?

I'm genuinely curious.

AstroPhobic
Minmatar
Holding Corp
Posted - 2009.06.08 18:40:00 - [13]
 

Originally by: Omarvelous
Whats the superior close range Phoon setup vs a close range tempest setup?

I'm genuinely curious.


Torps, ogres, ACs. You'll pull 200+ more DPS than the tempest, plus a lowslot for buffery goodness.

Omarvelous
Destry's Lounge
Important Internet Spaceship League
Posted - 2009.06.08 18:42:00 - [14]
 

Originally by: AstroPhobic
Originally by: Omarvelous
Whats the superior close range Phoon setup vs a close range tempest setup?

I'm genuinely curious.


Torps, ogres, ACs. You'll pull 200+ more DPS than the tempest, plus a lowslot for buffery goodness.


I assume its the one with target painters and trimarks?

Mar'Ketalt
Posted - 2009.06.08 18:47:00 - [15]
 

I heard a corpmate ranting just yesterday about how ****ty minnie bs are. Another corpmate proceeded to ask him about the pest: "Yeah the pest is pretty good actually." The phoon:"The phoon is really pretty damn decent." The mael:"Shield-tanking sux in an rr gang etc etc but it's a good ship."

Morale of the story: people love to hate minnie bs, but keep forgetting that they're actually great ships. This is ok with me, since it keeps prices down on the mael, and makes people want to aggress you because they assume you suck.

Also, phoons are just fine without much t2 skills, there are like freakin at least 10-15 completely different viable setups for a phoon, compared to the like 5 or so for most other bs. The phoon setup I'm getting into has a 167k ehp tank overheated while remote repping something like 500 armor hp/sec (actual hp before resists, not ehp)...Another thing: you can find vids of a mael solo-tanking small fleets and then raping them, using the ~2k dps active tank and ~1000 dps they can bring with overheating+boosters.

There is a little truth to the "minnie bs suck" bit: large arties really do suck. Artillery in general has the worst tracking AND lowest dps with only average range, and they have to reload constantly. On top of all that, they require a freakish amount of grid for all that and only reward you with a (very) high alpha. This is compared to autocannons, which have the lowest dps but best tracking and very good range in falloff, and are easy to fit and capless (which matters when you're fighting in neut range.)

AstroPhobic
Minmatar
Holding Corp
Posted - 2009.06.08 18:49:00 - [16]
 

Originally by: Omarvelous
Originally by: AstroPhobic
Originally by: Omarvelous
Whats the superior close range Phoon setup vs a close range tempest setup?

I'm genuinely curious.


Torps, ogres, ACs. You'll pull 200+ more DPS than the tempest, plus a lowslot for buffery goodness.


I assume its the one with target painters and trimarks?


[Typhoon, Ganky]
Ballistic Control System II
Ballistic Control System II
Ballistic Control System II
1600mm Reinforced Rolled Tungsten Plates I
1600mm Reinforced Rolled Tungsten Plates I
Adaptive Nano Plating II
Damage Control II

Quad LiF Fueled I Booster Rockets
Warp Scrambler II
Phased Weapon Navigation Array Generation Extron
Stasis Webifier II

Siege Missile Launcher II, Caldari Navy Juggernaut Torpedo
Siege Missile Launcher II, Caldari Navy Juggernaut Torpedo
Siege Missile Launcher II, Caldari Navy Juggernaut Torpedo
Siege Missile Launcher II, Caldari Navy Juggernaut Torpedo
Dual 650mm Repeating Artillery II, Republic Fleet EMP L
Dual 650mm Repeating Artillery II, Republic Fleet EMP L
Dual 650mm Repeating Artillery II, Republic Fleet EMP L
Dual 650mm Repeating Artillery II, Republic Fleet EMP L

Trimark Armor Pump I
Trimark Armor Pump I
Trimark Armor Pump I


Ogre II x5

Web/ECCM/Whatever to taste. 1120 DPS, 90k EHP.

Sol'Kanar
Private Nuisance
Segregati0n
Posted - 2009.06.08 18:54:00 - [17]
 

People that say minnie BS suck obviously don't get it. So sorry that mashing F1-F8 doesn't work as well as it does on other racial BS.

AstroPhobic
Minmatar
Holding Corp
Posted - 2009.06.08 18:56:00 - [18]
 

Edited by: AstroPhobic on 08/06/2009 19:00:06
Originally by: Mar'Ketalt
I heard a corpmate ranting just yesterday about how ****ty minnie bs are. Another corpmate proceeded to ask him about the pest: "Yeah the pest is pretty good actually." The phoon:"The phoon is really pretty damn decent." The mael:"Shield-tanking sux in an rr gang etc etc but it's a good ship."

Morale of the story: people love to hate minnie bs, but keep forgetting that they're actually great ships. This is ok with me, since it keeps prices down on the mael, and makes people want to aggress you because they assume you suck.


No. They have certain qualities that make them passable, but they are not by any stretch great ships. See the maelstrom for example. Complete 1-trick pony: giant active shield tank. Look past that and you see mediocre damage, lack of sustainability, and handling like an oversized yacht. The typhoon makes a good addition to any RR gang. Other than that, it's a 40m SP-grabbing buffered gank boat that does less damage at less range than your standard gank raven, for 3x the SP.

Quote:

Also, phoons are just fine without much t2 skills, there are like freakin at least 10-15 completely different viable setups for a phoon, compared to the like 5 or so for most other bs. The phoon setup I'm getting into has a 167k ehp tank overheated while remote repping something like 500 armor hp/sec


It's a good RR boat. It's impossible to fit well without near or maxed fitting skills, and it really needs to be a complete t2 fit to squeeze out all the inferiority of split weapons systems.

Quote:
Another thing: you can find vids of a mael solo-tanking small fleets and then raping them, using the ~2k dps active tank and ~1000 dps they can bring with overheating+boosters.


You can find vids of haulers killing a vagabond too.

Quote:
There is a little truth to the "minnie bs suck" bit: large arties really do suck. Artillery in general has the worst tracking AND lowest dps with only average range, and they have to reload constantly. On top of all that, they require a freakish amount of grid for all that and only reward you with a (very) high alpha. This is compared to autocannons, which have the lowest dps but best tracking and very good range in falloff, and are easy to fit and capless (which matters when you're fighting in neut range.)


Blasters and autos have about equal tracking, and autos have very weak falloff. It can't be modified beyond a single (4x) skill, and a single rig. It doesn't scale with each tier of autocannon, and it does, say it with me now, 38.5% tracking independent DPS at optimal + falloff. That maelstrom you're thinking of that hits to 5+40km with barrage? yeah, it does under 300 (gun) DPS at 45km. Your abaddon or geddon will easily double that.


ed:
Originally by: Sol'Kanar
People that say minnie BS suck obviously don't get it. So sorry that mashing F1-F8 doesn't work as well as it does on other racial BS.


Enlighten us, oh knower of all things. Extra points if you approach it NMX style.

Rezark
Minmatar
MicroFunks
Posted - 2009.06.08 19:07:00 - [19]
 

Wow, lots of responses and differing opinions.. just what I wanted :-)

How do Gallente fair in the BS department? Gallente seem interesting to me because of their drone capabilities.. even with my crappy drone skills, I have a blast watching the little guys rip stuff apart.

Liang Nuren
Posted - 2009.06.08 19:08:00 - [20]
 

Originally by: Omarvelous
I know the DPS looks bad - but remember the ship has 2 neuts to break an active tank. If its buffer tanked, you can disengage if you're not going to win. I find no other race's BS can disengage as well as Minmatar BS can. It saves me when I get blobbed.


This assumes that there is 1v1 BS action in lowsec, which is generally (dare I say overwhelmingly) not the case. Either you brought friends and you blob them to death, or they brought friends and blob you to death (which virtually negates any navigational bonus you have), or you both brought friends and it becomes a question of initial deployment, FC, and DPS vs EHP.

Quote:
Abaddon doesn't have neuts


I have found that neuting (these days) is almost strictly useful as an anti-tackler measure. Even still, assuming it helps break lowsec piracy tanks, the Abaddon would be dealing even more damage than the Pest (and if you're orbiting at 18km, it's doing multiples of your Pests' damage) and thus simply kills them before the neuts would really come into play.

Quote:
I know the RR phoon is better - I gave the 4 rep setup - I just wanted to show you could RR with a pest if you needed to.


You should never need to RR a pest. If you're RR'ing, bring a phoon. It's cheaper, and does the job better.

Quote:
Armor Omni tanking, I think your point is generally correct with T1 armor tanks, but I also use the Tempest to attack support ships that are T2 cruisers with resist holes.


I agree that base T2 cruisers have resist holes... I just disagree that the pilots fitting them leave them there. The most likely people to leave a resist hole is T2 Minmatar shield tankers.

Quote:
The dual sensor boosters are for low sec work. Sure a HICtor will get the initial point, but being able to lock quickly and neut the target to keep it from burning away from the gate is pretty crucial.


O.o Dual neuts aren't going to do anything about someone getting back to a gate or not. It only takes 1 pulse of the MWD, and that's pretty well instant - and if they're big enough to require two pulses of the MWD, they undoubtedly require and have a cap booster.

Quote:
I think my argument for why I like Minmatar BS is they have a good mix of qualities for low sec piracy.


I simply disagree... the best quality for lowsec piracy is the ability to get in, do the job (while tanking sentries if you must), and get out. Utility takes a distant second place to gank and tank.

Quote:
Can't use smaller faster locking ships on gates (not everyone has an arazu alt in fleet).


Oh ye of little imagination. We (No Salvation... when it still existed) used interceptors and stealth bombers on lowsec gates all the time. :)

-Liang

Liang Nuren
Posted - 2009.06.08 19:13:00 - [21]
 

Originally by: Mar'Ketalt
since it keeps prices down on the mael


Battleship prices are set by mineral cost.

Quote:
people love to hate minnie bs, but keep forgetting that they're actually great ships.


Or, you know, we could fly other ships and know just how crappy they are. :)

Quote:
Also, phoons are just fine without much t2 skills


NeutralLaughing

Quote:
This is compared to autocannons, which have the lowest dps but best tracking and very good range in falloff, and are easy to fit and capless (which matters when you're fighting in neut range.)


Last I checked, blasters have the best absolute tracking, and lasers have the best relative tracking at range (mostly due to *really* high optimal). ACs have best tracking how again?

-Liang

To mare
Amarr
Advanced Technology
Posted - 2009.06.08 19:13:00 - [22]
 

most of ppl when they speak about the pest come out with the same setup:
6x ac 2x neut
mwd+tackle+ cap booster
1 lar + some buffer + 1 dmg mod

and they think is something special for killing small ships and because it can disengage some time thanks to the neut, but you can get the same results (sometimes even better) with other races bs not because you have 7-8 gun hardpoint means you have to fill them all (but who sane of mind would want to emulate tempest performances).

the main point is that the tempest is limited there while the others BS can be refitted and go ahead.

1600 RT
Posted - 2009.06.08 19:17:00 - [23]
 

Originally by: Rezark
Wow, lots of responses and differing opinions.. just what I wanted :-)

How do Gallente fair in the BS department? Gallente seem interesting to me because of their drone capabilities.. even with my crappy drone skills, I have a blast watching the little guys rip stuff apart.


gallente blaster bs could be good but atm everything thats not fitting laser with scorch just fall short.
dominix is pretty good.

Liang Nuren
Posted - 2009.06.08 19:20:00 - [24]
 

Originally by: Rezark
How do Gallente fair in the BS department? Gallente seem interesting to me because of their drone capabilities.. even with my crappy drone skills, I have a blast watching the little guys rip stuff apart.


Gallente BS's:
- Domi: Very versatile (RR/Gank/Bait/etc), good DPS, great PVE boat too
- Mega: The very essence of style. Good DPS if you can get someone in your optimal and quad webbed (well, it could happen!). Also a good (cheap) fleet Snypa BS.
- Hype: We do not talk about the Hype. It's redeeming quality is that it does better on gates than a Mega.

Fleet: Rails are pretty good (not as good as lasers, but what really is these days? Rolling Eyes)

Future outlook: Very low likelihood of imminent nerfing (again), so probably a safe bet to train for a nice middle of the road BS lineup. :)

-Liang

Electric Universe
The Choir
Posted - 2009.06.08 19:23:00 - [25]
 

Edited by: Electric Universe on 08/06/2009 19:36:22
Originally by: AstroPhobic
Enlighten us, oh knower of all things. Extra points if you approach it NMX style.

NMX style. I'll guess your talking about NightmareX here now.

In that case, he have the 100% same opinions about the Tempest as Omarvelous have.

Omarvelous is one of the few players (like NightmareX) in EVE that really see the good things with the Tempest. Because everything in EVE is not about having most EHP and DPS when your outside of huge blob fests.

You know, a Battleship today isn't a ship that is any good to kill targets smaller than Battlecruisers effectivly. But the Tempest is pretty good at doing that though. It's one of the very few BS'es that is good at that.

The Blaster Mega is also good at that, but the Tempest is better because it can fit 2x Heavy Neuts and have better speed than the Mega. And can catch smaller targets much much easier and kill them easily because targets like cruisers and frigs wont go anywhere with no cap and no MWD when they are neutedWink.

So if you want a ship that is balanced good in killing ships from frigs to BS'es with good results, then the Tempest is good.

And the Tempest is a ship for smart and experienced PVPers ONLY. You need to know the ship in and out 110% to understand how the ship is working. And you need a butt load of skills for the Tempest to be effective in it.

AstroPhobic
Minmatar
Holding Corp
Posted - 2009.06.08 19:47:00 - [26]
 

Originally by: Electric Universe
Edited by: Electric Universe on 08/06/2009 19:36:22
Originally by: AstroPhobic
Enlighten us, oh knower of all things. Extra points if you approach it NMX style.

NMX style. I'll guess your talking about NightmareX here now.

In that case, he have the 100% same opinions about the Tempest as Omarvelous have.

Omarvelous is one of the few players (like NightmareX) in EVE that really see the good things with the Tempest. Because everything in EVE is not about having most EHP and DPS when your outside of huge blob fests.

You know, a Battleship today isn't a ship that is any good to kill targets smaller than Battlecruisers effectivly. But the Tempest is pretty good at doing that though. It's one of the very few BS'es that is good at that.

The Blaster Mega is also good at that, but the Tempest is better because it can fit 2x Heavy Neuts and have better speed than the Mega. And can catch smaller targets much much easier and kill them easily because targets like cruisers and frigs wont go anywhere with no cap and no MWD when they are neutedWink.

So if you want a ship that is balanced good in killing ships from frigs to BS'es with good results, then the Tempest is good.

And the Tempest is a ship for smart and experienced PVPers ONLY. You need to know the ship in and out 110% to understand how the ship is working. And you need a butt load of skills for the Tempest to be effective in it.


Excellent. Your argument consisted of:

- The tempest uses heavy neuts
- Learn2fly your ship

Almost a NMX clone. Bravo.

Mar'Ketalt
Posted - 2009.06.08 19:48:00 - [27]
 

Have to admit, especially after following the links to the falloff dps discussion and such, that Astro has convinced me.

And for Liang, I assumed (without knowing, I admit) that a mael's base build price is about the same as the other tier 3 bs. But it's usually 20mil cheaper, right?

Liang Nuren
Posted - 2009.06.08 20:29:00 - [28]
 

Originally by: Mar'Ketalt
And for Liang, I assumed (without knowing, I admit) that a mael's base build price is about the same as the other tier 3 bs. But it's usually 20mil cheaper, right?


This is what I know:
- Industrialists have repeatedly told me that market price in Empire for T1 battleships is entirely determined by the build cost with minerals bought from the market. There exist crazy people that consider mined minerals essentially free (and thus do silly things like sell Ravens at 15M below market equilibrium), but they miss out on opportunity cost and frequently see things like marketeers buying their product and then immediately selling it for a much higher price.
- I have owned multiple Battleship blueprints (Raven, Mega), and my observations were exactly in line with what industrialists said.
- I know that ships have different mineral costs, and my assumption is that this is what guides the Maelstrom and Rokh to cost ~10-15M less than the Abaddon/Rokh (on average). That said, the Abaddon does appear to be an anomalous point with prices being almost universally in excess of 140M.
- Many alliances will build you T1 battleships exactly at build cost. What, yours doesn't? Hell, even some really ****ty alliances I've been in offered this service. :)

-Liang

Arbiter Reformed
Minmatar
Garnet Resources
Posted - 2009.06.08 20:49:00 - [29]
 

Edited by: arbiter reformed on 08/06/2009 20:51:04
Originally by: Liang Nuren
Originally by: Mar'Ketalt
And for Liang, I assumed (without knowing, I admit) that a mael's base build price is about the same as the other tier 3 bs. But it's usually 20mil cheaper, right?


This is what I know:
- Industrialists have repeatedly told me that market price in Empire for T1 battleships is entirely determined by the build cost with minerals bought from the market. There exist crazy people that consider mined minerals essentially free (and thus do silly things like sell Ravens at 15M below market equilibrium), but they miss out on opportunity cost and frequently see things like marketeers buying their product and then immediately selling it for a much higher price.
- I have owned multiple Battleship blueprints (Raven, Mega), and my observations were exactly in line with what industrialists said.
- I know that ships have different mineral costs, and my assumption is that this is what guides the Maelstrom and Rokh to cost ~10-15M less than the Abaddon/Rokh (on average). That said, the Abaddon does appear to be an anomalous point with prices being almost universally in excess of 140M.
- Many alliances will build you T1 battleships exactly at build cost. What, yours doesn't? Hell, even some really ****ty alliances I've been in offered this service. :)

-Liang


corp insurance and theyll sell you them for less:)

but yeh phoon needs sp, but omg its teh sex when you have em, i havnt stopped flying it of late, rr gang, solo, small gang,

tempest is a good sniper if you fight at its range ie 100- 140 but there are much better snipers, its also a nice solo bs but probably the poorest tier 2 bs out there atm at least stat wise, could do with a boost

to work well the mael needs very good shield skills and crystals, after that its an absolute monster in lowsec and thats before you faction fit it:) arties and too a lesser extent L ac's still need a boost

Anubis Xian
Ministry of War
Posted - 2009.06.08 21:17:00 - [30]
 

The Full Attack plate phoon only outdpses the Full Attack plate Tempest due to the drones.

Add dmg mods to the mix and the Tempest ****s the Typhoon's damage.

They are both good ships, but the pest could use one less high slot and another low.


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