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Rellik B00n
Posted - 2009.06.07 10:31:00 - [1]
 

Please correct me if im wrong (seriously), but werent the caldari militia getting ****d on a daily basis not too long ago?
To the point that most of the gallente militia got bored and went to do other things?

The overwhelming impression i got at that time was that caldari were a laughing stock: raids in caldari hi sec went un-opposed, entire constellations were no go areas for caldari.

So - fill in the blanks for me: Did the Caldari win because all the Gallente left, or did they suddenly get skills?

Captain Darvok
Amarr
Viziam
Posted - 2009.06.07 10:49:00 - [2]
 

Edited by: Captain Darvok on 07/06/2009 10:49:13
The blank is between your ears.

Tosi
Space Perverts and Forum Warriors United
Monocle Overlords
Posted - 2009.06.07 11:19:00 - [3]
 

There is no way anything affiliated to me having any skills so you can count that one out.

imho caldari won because there just was not enough gallente. quadruple numbers were not enough to drive us out from plexes because we use cloaking nanostabbed frigs to capture plexes. Also Gallente have only tried to defend like half of the plexes i've been idlecloakstabfrigcapturingafk it so we've been secretly capturing plexes where gallente spies dont know it.

oooh, and what about pervs raids in dodixie/auvergne? Gallente showed great missionboats and great courage to let them die.

Bad Messenger
draketrain
Posted - 2009.06.07 11:23:00 - [4]
 

It is not so simple.

Fw has two sides, Large blobs who engage others mostly just for run and plexes who actually caprure systems.

Capturing systems is long prosess. Normally capturing one system without any resistance takes more than week. If there is some resistance it takes longer. So capturing all enemy systems is quite huge job to be done. It took about 6 months to conquer all gallente systems.

Gallente manages to kill more those 'fun fighters' but in plexes they mostly lost in important systems and finally they got enough and let Caldari take last 20 systems without any major resistance in plexes.

I say Gallente tried to defend (example in Old Man Star) but they did not manage to get enough people for plexing and rest could not do anything to stop caldari.
Somehow it was funny that gallente had more people on their plexing channel than caldari Laughing.



Kessiaan
Minmatar
Vagrants Inc
Posted - 2009.06.07 11:44:00 - [5]
 

This debate about plexing has been going on for some time now.

After personally leading a plexing effort I've come to the conclusion that the problem isn't that there aren't enough Gallente plexers, it's that the 'winner' of any plexing effort is determined entirely by who can get the most people to log in 30 seconds after downtime. Generally after more than 20 minutes or so have elapsed after the server comes up it's too late, and whoever actually 'occupies' the space the other 98.6% of the time is irrelevant.

It also doesn't help that plexing isn't pvp - at all. If you fit for pvp you fail at plexing, period. Your usual Gallente offensive plex ship is a max-tanked Ishkur with an afterburner, rails, and the ability to permarun SAR. This ship does very well in plexes as it tanks well and its drones will continue to function even when it's jammed (and it will be jammed the majority of the time). This ship is complete crap in PvP. And watching timers is boring. If people are going to do boring stuff, most of the time they'd rather camp a gate or a station.

Basically I'm saying 'Yes the Caldari won can we scrap this broken system now?'. Current plex mechanics are very broken and have long since ceased to serve their function to facilitate small-ship PvP. They do do that, but not nearly as well as they could.

Sigvardt
Minmatar
Starfish S.M.B.A
Posted - 2009.06.07 11:52:00 - [6]
 

Originally by: Kessiaan
This debate about plexing has been going on for some time now.

After personally leading a plexing effort I've come to the conclusion that the problem isn't that there aren't enough Gallente plexers, it's that the 'winner' of any plexing effort is determined entirely by who can get the most people to log in 30 seconds after downtime. Generally after more than 20 minutes or so have elapsed after the server comes up it's too late, and whoever actually 'occupies' the space the other 98.6% of the time is irrelevant.

It also doesn't help that plexing isn't pvp - at all. If you fit for pvp you fail at plexing, period. Your usual Gallente offensive plex ship is a max-tanked Ishkur with an afterburner, rails, and the ability to permarun SAR. This ship does very well in plexes as it tanks well and its drones will continue to function even when it's jammed (and it will be jammed the majority of the time). This ship is complete crap in PvP. And watching timers is boring. If people are going to do boring stuff, most of the time they'd rather camp a gate or a station.

Basically I'm saying 'Yes the Caldari won can we scrap this broken system now?'. Current plex mechanics are very broken and have long since ceased to serve their function to facilitate small-ship PvP. They do do that, but not nearly as well as they could.


How do you actually take over/win a complex and system? You say it's linked to downtime, but how? Is it simply so that there are a complex with X npc in it and when you kill those you win the complex?

If that is the case how come/why is it impossible to retake them? I'd think all that happens is that the complex changes to another side and eventually the system too.

If it's tied that greatly to downtime I'd say it's seriously flawed.

Why is it not possible to take a complex a few hours after DT?


Hidden Snake
Caldari
Inglorious-Basterds
Posted - 2009.06.07 11:56:00 - [7]
 

Edited by: Hidden Snake on 07/06/2009 11:57:07
Originally by: Kessiaan
This debate about plexing has been going on for some time now.

After personally leading a plexing effort I've come to the conclusion that the problem isn't that there aren't enough Gallente plexers, it's that the 'winner' of any plexing effort is determined entirely by who can get the most people to log in 30 seconds after downtime. Generally after more than 20 minutes or so have elapsed after the server comes up it's too late, and whoever actually 'occupies' the space the other 98.6% of the time is irrelevant.

It also doesn't help that plexing isn't pvp - at all. If you fit for pvp you fail at plexing, period. Your usual Gallente offensive plex ship is a max-tanked Ishkur with an afterburner, rails, and the ability to permarun SAR. This ship does very well in plexes as it tanks well and its drones will continue to function even when it's jammed (and it will be jammed the majority of the time). This ship is complete crap in PvP. And watching timers is boring. If people are going to do boring stuff, most of the time they'd rather camp a gate or a station.

Basically I'm saying 'Yes the Caldari won can we scrap this broken system now?'. Current plex mechanics are very broken and have long since ceased to serve their function to facilitate small-ship PvP. They do do that, but not nearly as well as they could.
another frog/matari ****** ... it was small ship pvp and 3 months ago i fought lot of battles in plexes (t1 frigs, dessies), but later on gals just lost their spirit

Bad Messenger
draketrain
Posted - 2009.06.07 12:23:00 - [8]
 

Originally by: Kessiaan
This debate about plexing has been going on for some time now.

After personally leading a plexing effort I've come to the conclusion that the problem isn't that there aren't enough Gallente plexers, it's that the 'winner' of any plexing effort is determined entirely by who can get the most people to log in 30 seconds after downtime. Generally after more than 20 minutes or so have elapsed after the server comes up it's too late, and whoever actually 'occupies' the space the other 98.6% of the time is irrelevant.

It also doesn't help that plexing isn't pvp - at all. If you fit for pvp you fail at plexing, period. Your usual Gallente offensive plex ship is a max-tanked Ishkur with an afterburner, rails, and the ability to permarun SAR. This ship does very well in plexes as it tanks well and its drones will continue to function even when it's jammed (and it will be jammed the majority of the time). This ship is complete crap in PvP. And watching timers is boring. If people are going to do boring stuff, most of the time they'd rather camp a gate or a station.

Basically I'm saying 'Yes the Caldari won can we scrap this broken system now?'. Current plex mechanics are very broken and have long since ceased to serve their function to facilitate small-ship PvP. They do do that, but not nearly as well as they could.


I've captured all offencive plexes with pvp setup.

Tosi
Space Perverts and Forum Warriors United
Monocle Overlords
Posted - 2009.06.07 12:23:00 - [9]
 

Originally by: Kessiaan
This debate about plexing has been going on for some time now.
It also doesn't help that plexing isn't pvp - at all. If you fit for pvp you fail at plexing, period. Your usual Gallente offensive plex ship is a max-tanked Ishkur with an afterburner, rails, and the ability to permarun SAR. This ship does very well in plexes as it tanks well and its drones will continue to function even when it's jammed (and it will be jammed the majority of the time). This ship is complete crap in PvP. And watching timers is boring. If people are going to do boring stuff, most of the time they'd rather camp a gate or a station.


at least my gallente alt has no problem doing majors in pvp ishkur

Droog 1
Posted - 2009.06.07 12:31:00 - [10]
 


2 or 3 months ago the Caldari were in a terrible state. They had a lack of FCs and nearly every fleet they put out was spanked by the Gallente.

They decided to turn their attention to plexes instead. The plex running corps in the caldari militia, who had previously been thwarted by a gallente corp FOOM (Who had recently left),started taking systems and issued a challenge to the gallente to fight them in the plexes. But the fights they promised never occured. Complex capturing turned into a game of capture the flag, but the trick was to capture the flag on a map nobody was playing on and run off before anybody saw you. Only a small minority of the systems the caldari captured saw fighting at the control bunker because the system went vulnerable just after downtime. A very large Gallente corp who decided to fight the caldari in plexes left because the caldari, who had been very vocal about plexes being a good place to find pvp, never fought them.

Combine this with the post downtime respawning of plexes and it became very tedious to keep up with the amount of plexes the caldari ran. At primetime the plexes were empty so nobody got a fight and any plexes which were flipped ended up back in caldari hands straight after downtime.

To answer your final question-Nobody has won and nobody ever will. A large corp did leave the Gallente side down to boredom but I can't blame the caldari for finding something to do other than die horribly in a fleet fight.

Mitch Taylor
Dark-Rising
Executive Outcomes
Posted - 2009.06.07 12:42:00 - [11]
 

Edited by: Mitch Taylor on 07/06/2009 12:43:16
Originally by: Droog 1
Combine this with the post downtime respawning of plexes


This, if your not eastern european or russian (or unemployed), you drew the short straw on plex system defense.

Example.

System A is contested. At downtime caldari plexing corp logs in and runs 4 plexes. This takes 20 minutes with team of four running speed tanks.

They log off until next downtime, or respawn.

For next 23hrs and 40 minutes, defense teams are looking for plexes in system (but mechanics mean they will not spawn, so you are forced to run plexes which give no standing benefit to try and influence a spawn in the target system, which very rarely works). Then there numbers dwindle as downtime approaches.

At downtime caldari plexing corp logs in and runs 4 plexes... repeat to fade...

Gabriel Darkefyre
Minmatar
Jericho Fraction
The Star Fraction
Posted - 2009.06.07 13:01:00 - [12]
 

Originally by: Sigvardt
How do you actually take over/win a complex and system? You say it's linked to downtime, but how? Is it simply so that there are a complex with X npc in it and when you kill those you win the complex?

If that is the case how come/why is it impossible to retake them? I'd think all that happens is that the complex changes to another side and eventually the system too.

If it's tied that greatly to downtime I'd say it's seriously flawed.

Why is it not possible to take a complex a few hours after DT?




To take a Plex, you need to be within a certain distance of a structure for up to 20 minutes depending on the Plex type.

That's it.

You don't even need to destroy the NPC's at the Plex to Capture it.

And once a plex is Captured, it can't be recaptured by the other side as it completely disappears.

-----

As to why Downtime is so important, thats when Plexes will spawn in all systems. Therefore, if you're on straight after Downtime you can Capture the Plexes in the systems that Matter. After that, the spawn becomes Random, so you can't be certain of finding enough Plexes in a Contested System to successfully capture or decontest it, you need to be completing Plexes elsewhere and Hoping that the Random Respawn will put it somewhere where it'll be more useful.

Add to that, the plex you may need to move may be located in an Uncontested System for your own side which means you don't even gain Standings for Defending the Plex and that there's no guarantee that it'll move to the right place.

-----

From a Personal Point of View, the Plexing mechanic is broken for those reasons. What they should have done is tie System Control into the FW Missions System with Offensive Missions Sending you into Current Hotspots (Or Systems Neighbouring your own Space) and Defensive Missions sending you into Areas where that Defense is Needed. Have the Missions Flash up on the Overview of Militia Members and Include in the Description of the Deadspace what the Objective of the Mission is to allow the opposing Militia to know how to disrupt it

For example, say a Caldari Mission requires the Caldari to grab Vital Fleet Deployment Data from the Mission Deadspace and return it to any State Protectorate Station to complete the Mission. Now, the Mission will only show up on the overview once the Caldari has warped to it meaning that the Caldari has a Head Start.

A Gallente or Minmatar Pilot should be able to go into the Deadspace and get the Objective himself, returning it to any FDU Station to Fail the Mission for the Caldari and take the Caldari's Mission Reward Himself (ISK, LP's, Standing and reversing whatever effect completing the mission would have on the System. i.e. if the Caldari Completing the Mission would take the system 5% towards becoming Vulnerable then the Gallente/Minmatar successfully disrupting the Mission would take it 5% Away from being Vulnerable) Make it so that you can only open the Objective Container if there are No Pilots on the Opposing Factions within the Grid so that you have to fight off the opposing pilots before you can get the item needed to complete the Mission.

Bad Messenger
draketrain
Posted - 2009.06.07 13:29:00 - [13]
 

Edited by: Bad Messenger on 07/06/2009 13:30:07
Capruting plexes after dt is important if you want fast system captures.

But there is 101 systems in caldari/gallente area so if you want to take all plexes in 20 minuts you have to have about 1000 or more plexers online.

This plexing thing and they spawning is what it is, you have to invent strategies to beat down time plexers. It is possible if you want to do it. If you have no will you lose.

Mostly those who whine about this and that are people who are NOT willing to use half year to achieve something. They think too small details and does not understand whole picture. They want everything now without doing anything.

Kessiaan
Minmatar
Vagrants Inc
Posted - 2009.06.07 13:37:00 - [14]
 

Originally by: Bad Messenger
Edited by: Bad Messenger on 07/06/2009 13:30:07
Capruting plexes after dt is important if you want fast system captures.

But there is 101 systems in caldari/gallente area so if you want to take all plexes in 20 minuts you have to have about 1000 or more plexers online.

This plexing thing and they spawning is what it is, you have to invent strategies to beat down time plexers. It is possible if you want to do it. If you have no will you lose.

Mostly those who whine about this and that are people who are NOT willing to use half year to achieve something. They think too small details and does not understand whole picture. They want everything now without doing anything.


It is what it is. I have the utmost respect for the Caldari have accomplished under the current system and am not trying to denigrate it in any way.

But the current system just excludes too many people. Telling someone that lives in California they have to drag their ass out of bed at 4 AM to watch the log-on screen for anywhere from 10 minutes to an hour and a half, then go plex, then go to work, is really hardcore. Even for EvE. Most people in Europe are still at work. The respawn mechanics make it such that if you're targeting specific systems, if you can't play immediately after DT you don't count. Personally I don't think that was CCP's goal with FW, more an unintended side effect of the plex spawn mechanics.

Bad Messenger
draketrain
Posted - 2009.06.07 14:15:00 - [15]
 

Originally by: Kessiaan
Originally by: Bad Messenger
Edited by: Bad Messenger on 07/06/2009 13:30:07
Capruting plexes after dt is important if you want fast system captures.

But there is 101 systems in caldari/gallente area so if you want to take all plexes in 20 minuts you have to have about 1000 or more plexers online.

This plexing thing and they spawning is what it is, you have to invent strategies to beat down time plexers. It is possible if you want to do it. If you have no will you lose.

Mostly those who whine about this and that are people who are NOT willing to use half year to achieve something. They think too small details and does not understand whole picture. They want everything now without doing anything.


It is what it is. I have the utmost respect for the Caldari have accomplished under the current system and am not trying to denigrate it in any way.

But the current system just excludes too many people. Telling someone that lives in California they have to drag their ass out of bed at 4 AM to watch the log-on screen for anywhere from 10 minutes to an hour and a half, then go plex, then go to work, is really hardcore. Even for EvE. Most people in Europe are still at work. The respawn mechanics make it such that if you're targeting specific systems, if you can't play immediately after DT you don't count. Personally I don't think that was CCP's goal with FW, more an unintended side effect of the plex spawn mechanics.


As is said you are looking at details, consentrate to whole picture and you may see solution.

X Gallentius
Quantum Cats Syndicate
Posted - 2009.06.07 15:34:00 - [16]
 

Not enough Gallente were ever into plexing. Squids would have taken it all eventually. FOOM was the only dedicated plexing corpration. D-R tried it for a while, but it's not their thing as they like to kill things and not orbit buttons forever. After they left we didn't have the numbers to do anything (and never had the numbers to compete after dt).

After dt numbers / cloaked, wcs'd frig fleets (both sides) / no tangible reward other than e-peen made it pointless to try to defend. But this is all old news.

The role-play angle of the "guerrilla war" is now upon us and tbh it's alot more fun.


Sun Clausewitz
Posted - 2009.06.07 15:42:00 - [17]
 

Gall's are lazy. They whine about plexin and lack of PVP. But they knew the Caldari were going to be at the plexes.

But, the Gall's wouldn't be able to roll their BS and T2 blobs in to the plex to kill the Caldari T1 Frigs, so they didn't go there to PVP.

Caldari won cause they used teamwork and tactics... Try it for a change and you may start seeing Gall systems showing back up on the map.

Especially since you have 101 to pick from, the Caldari fleets can't be everywhere to defend them all.

Ankhesentapemkah
Gallente
Posted - 2009.06.07 16:03:00 - [18]
 

Originally by: Bad Messenger
I've captured all offencive plexes with pvp setup.


Yeah but Gallente NPCs suck balls and can't hit anything, while the Caldari NPCs are OMGBBQ with their unlimited range missiles and permajamming.

Bad Messenger
draketrain
Posted - 2009.06.07 16:19:00 - [19]
 

Edited by: Bad Messenger on 07/06/2009 16:19:21
Originally by: Ankhesentapemkah
Originally by: Bad Messenger
I've captured all offencive plexes with pvp setup.


Yeah but Gallente NPCs suck balls and can't hit anything, while the Caldari NPCs are OMGBBQ with their unlimited range missiles and permajamming.


As is said you are looking at details, consentrate to whole picture and you may see solution.

How about team work? Ever heard about it? There is reason why PERVS players are not alone.

Hidden Snake
Caldari
Inglorious-Basterds
Posted - 2009.06.07 19:02:00 - [20]
 

Originally by: Bad Messenger
Edited by: Bad Messenger on 07/06/2009 16:19:21
Originally by: Ankhesentapemkah
Originally by: Bad Messenger
I've captured all offencive plexes with pvp setup.


Yeah but Gallente NPCs suck balls and can't hit anything, while the Caldari NPCs are OMGBBQ with their unlimited range missiles and permajamming.


As is said you are looking at details, consentrate to whole picture and you may see solution.

How about team work? Ever heard about it? There is reason why PERVS players are not alone.
BM u r trying too hard on their small brains ... problem is that they are still smacktalking how they are good at pvp ... which is not truth anymore

Rip Minner
Gallente
ARMITAGE Logistics Salvage and Industries
Posted - 2009.06.07 19:28:00 - [21]
 

Originally by: Hidden Snake
Originally by: Bad Messenger
Edited by: Bad Messenger on 07/06/2009 16:19:21
Originally by: Ankhesentapemkah
Originally by: Bad Messenger
I've captured all offencive plexes with pvp setup.


Yeah but Gallente NPCs suck balls and can't hit anything, while the Caldari NPCs are OMGBBQ with their unlimited range missiles and permajamming.


As is said you are looking at details, consentrate to whole picture and you may see solution.

How about team work? Ever heard about it? There is reason why PERVS players are not alone.
BM u r trying too hard on their small brains ... problem is that they are still smacktalking how they are good at pvp ... which is not truth anymore


Depends on how you look at it. If by pvp you mean taking the flag ya you win if you mean pvp by they stomped your ars in major fleet engagments then no.

X Gallentius
Quantum Cats Syndicate
Posted - 2009.06.07 19:47:00 - [22]
 

Originally by: Hidden Snake
words...
BM has our respect - he was on the field taking systems. Where were you?

Damar Rocarion
Posted - 2009.06.07 20:21:00 - [23]
 

Originally by: Rip Minner
Depends on how you look at it. If by pvp you mean taking the flag ya you win if you mean pvp by they stomped your ars in major fleet engagments then no.


Well, sometimes we do lose the fight over plexes as today in OMS but we got a nice fight over it. The report is a bit cluttered since pirate myrmidon interfered for a while.

First we had minors inside plex, then gallentes brought some and we killed/chased them off. Then some bigger ships went to acc gate (with pirate) that we decided to kill. However, then a massive frigate blob entered plex and our guy capping it had to leave.

By the time WTs (and pirate) were dead, plex had been capped by gallente. Oh well.

Damar Rocarion
Brigadier General
(using an alt in that fight...)

Jenna Side
Posted - 2009.06.07 20:29:00 - [24]
 

tbh, now that fw plexing is finally over. It's great fun to get back to playing docking games and 'catch-the-interceptor' with the masters of pvp - the gallante. I can see myself playing these games for years to come. This is what pvp is all about !!! In fact if this is how gallante wanna play faction war, the only change ccp need to make is rename it from faction war to interceptor war, just to be more accurate.

Bevil Smyth
Caldari
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Posted - 2009.06.07 21:16:00 - [25]
 

Originally by: Kessiaan

it's that the 'winner' of any plexing effort is determined entirely by who can get the most people to log in 30 seconds after downtime


I think this is the most valid point there. ive definately noticed the number of plexes seem to be really high just after d/t and pretty weak thereafter which makes things easy for people that can get on just after the servers come up and impossible for everyone else.

Sun Clausewitz
Posted - 2009.06.07 22:23:00 - [26]
 

Originally by: Jenna Side
tbh, now that fw plexing is finally over. It's great fun to get back to playing docking games and 'catch-the-interceptor' with the masters of pvp - the gallante. I can see myself playing these games for years to come. This is what pvp is all about !!! In fact if this is how gallante wanna play faction war, the only change ccp need to make is rename it from faction war to interceptor war, just to be more accurate.


Gate camping blobs and docking games are much more fun than plexing

Hadrielloress
Posted - 2009.06.08 00:12:00 - [27]
 

Originally by: Sun Clausewitz
Gall's are lazy. They whine about plexin and lack of PVP. But they knew the Caldari were going to be at the plexes.

But, the Gall's wouldn't be able to roll their BS and T2 blobs in to the plex to kill the Caldari T1 Frigs, so they didn't go there to PVP.

Caldari won cause they used teamwork and tactics... Try it for a change and you may start seeing Gall systems showing back up on the map.

Especially since you have 101 to pick from, the Caldari fleets can't be everywhere to defend them all.

So they brought out ships that are expensive and risk them, you sit in cheap fleets and run away all the time.

Again I cant believe what i read, you admit to being cowards and run from fights. Actually most caldari seem to be like this. Why dont you guys Try PvP for once.

Xianbei
Posted - 2009.06.08 15:08:00 - [28]
 

Originally by: Bad Messenger
They want everything now without doing anything.


which is precisely how squids captured systems. without doing anything. not really.

you can whine all you want because you want people to care

gallente do not care

Xianbei
Posted - 2009.06.08 15:13:00 - [29]
 

Originally by: Hidden Snake
still smacktalking how they are good at pvp ... which is not truth anymore


because many left and joined minnie militia and dark-rising

and even after that "brain drain" as it is called, caldari still run like babys


Hurtado Soneka
Caldari
Vindicare Temple
Posted - 2009.06.08 15:20:00 - [30]
 

loving the idiots saying caldari run from pvp, when infact the gals only really engage if they have twice the numbers Surprised


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