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blankseplocked [Proposal] Black Ops BONAR
 
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Zastrow J
GoonFleet
GoonSwarm
Posted - 2009.06.02 02:47:00 - [1]
 

Ok so I think most everyone agrees that the Black Ops battleship is in need of a role, it just doesn't do anything that really justifies its cost. (Portalling is cool but difficult/rarely used and more of a gimmick, similar to clone vats) Recent updates have seen a massive surge in popularity for stealth bombers. Anyone flying around in 0.0 spaces knows, these things are everywhere. So here's the idea for a new Black Ops battleship role: a sort of sub-hunter.

A new skill and new module would give Black-Ops Battleships a decloaking-device. (We referred to it as Black Ops SONAR, or BONAR) Say, a 50km radius pulse that decloaks any cloaked ships, with a 3 minute cooldown. This would give Black Ops BS something unique to do and also add a reasonable counter to cloaked gatecamps.

Mori Kaal
Caldari
DarkStar 1
Goonswarm Federation
Posted - 2009.06.02 02:51:00 - [2]
 

This is the best idea I have ever, ever heard.

May Zonday
GoonFleet
GoonSwarm
Posted - 2009.06.02 02:52:00 - [3]
 

Supported.

Pringlescan
GoonFleet
Band of Brothers
Posted - 2009.06.02 02:53:00 - [4]
 

This is an awesome idea and would do a great job towards explaining why it costs more lose to a black ops bs then it does to lose an insured dread.

D'Nealian
Posted - 2009.06.02 02:54:00 - [5]
 

Yes.

Cursive
Ars ex Discordia
GoonSwarm
Posted - 2009.06.02 02:54:00 - [6]
 

HubbaHubba.

WilWheaton
GoonFleet
GoonSwarm
Posted - 2009.06.02 02:59:00 - [7]
 

I would definitely launch bonars

Alexander Knott
ElitistOps
Pandemic Legion
Posted - 2009.06.02 02:59:00 - [8]
 

Neat idea. I'd probably want to add "no cloaking while the BONAR is in cooldown", but I like the overall concept.

Explodey
Merch Industrial
GoonSwarm
Posted - 2009.06.02 03:02:00 - [9]
 

This idea sounds pretty good. Instead of a sonar ping, activating this should go BONG.

Syndemic
Posted - 2009.06.02 03:03:00 - [10]
 

Give me a ping, Vasili. One ping only, please.


This is a great idea but add two modes, passive that can used while the BS is cloaked and has very short range and active where the BS has to be uncloaked and has the 50 km range. This would be hell for recon pilots trying to get through camps though.

Pringlescan
GoonFleet
Band of Brothers
Posted - 2009.06.02 03:03:00 - [11]
 

Also How about making it so it has a timer before decloaking dependent on black ops skill level? Make it so that at black ops level 4 it takes 10 seconds to charge and at level 5 it takes 5 seconds? This way it won't screw over all the covert op cloaked ships running through gatecamps, yet it still messes with all the ships without cloak bonuses.

Ivan Shenovich
Posted - 2009.06.02 03:03:00 - [12]
 

Black Ops Navigation And Ranging is a module which I fully support.

William Romeo
Caldari
DarkStar 1
GoonSwarm
Posted - 2009.06.02 03:06:00 - [13]
 

this

Zastrow J
GoonFleet
GoonSwarm
Posted - 2009.06.02 03:07:00 - [14]
 

my idea is that this wont affect your gate cloak just deactivate cloaking devices.

Rajere
Immortalis Inc.
Shadow Cartel
Posted - 2009.06.02 03:45:00 - [15]
 

Sure, if it doesn't nerf anything to the current ships. Would be yet another module I won't fit on my blackops.

Niar Khanna
Posted - 2009.06.02 04:06:00 - [16]
 

All the goons support this. Its got to be bad. I would lower the radius to 40 km and have it not be able to decloak gate cloaks.

Isaac Starstriker
Amarr
Frontier Venture
Posted - 2009.06.02 04:11:00 - [17]
 

Oh lord, a Goonswarm on the CSM....Rolling Eyes

Sorry, but unless the cloaking mechanic was changed, I wouldn't support this super-mega-awesome-smartbomb-ish-module.

--Isaac

Herschel Yamamoto
Agent-Orange
Nabaal Syndicate
Posted - 2009.06.02 05:16:00 - [18]
 

lololol he said bonar

Goonish fake immaturity aside, this is certainly an interesting idea, though it doesn't seem to fit all that well with the role of the Black Ops at present. I'd rather see a genuine role for covert operations - dropping cynojammers in surprise attacks seems the natural one, though admittedly hard to balance - than tacking on an anti-covert module to a covert ship. If the standard list of black ops buffs - fuel bay, ship stats, maybe a COCD - doesn't do the trick, then this might be the sort of thing to try. But I'd prefer to make it good at its role, if that's possible, than to give it a new one whole cloth.

Rajere
Immortalis Inc.
Shadow Cartel
Posted - 2009.06.02 05:41:00 - [19]
 

Originally by: Herschel Yamamoto
lololol he said bonar

Goonish fake immaturity aside, this is certainly an interesting idea, though it doesn't seem to fit all that well with the role of the Black Ops at present. I'd rather see a genuine role for covert operations - dropping cynojammers in surprise attacks seems the natural one, though admittedly hard to balance - than tacking on an anti-covert module to a covert ship. If the standard list of black ops buffs - fuel bay, ship stats, maybe a COCD - doesn't do the trick, then this might be the sort of thing to try. But I'd prefer to make it good at its role, if that's possible, than to give it a new one whole cloth.
why on earth would you think using an ability they didn't have until like 10 minutes ago to shoot cynojammers is a "natural" role for a ship class (BOs) and it's associated ship classes (SB, Force Recons, Cov Ops) that by definition are used by a subset of players (small gang pvp enthusiasts, typically involving asymmetrical fights vs larger opponents) who couldn't possibly care less about shooting cynojammers, and even if they wanted to shoot cynojammers, would chose any other ships to do so, rather than try to use the least effective ship classes ever for dealing with POSes?

Herschel Yamamoto
Agent-Orange
Nabaal Syndicate
Posted - 2009.06.02 06:27:00 - [20]
 

Originally by: Rajere
why on earth would you think using an ability they didn't have until like 10 minutes ago to shoot cynojammers is a "natural" role for a ship class (BOs) and it's associated ship classes (SB, Force Recons, Cov Ops) that by definition are used by a subset of players (small gang pvp enthusiasts, typically involving asymmetrical fights vs larger opponents) who couldn't possibly care less about shooting cynojammers, and even if they wanted to shoot cynojammers, would chose any other ships to do so, rather than try to use the least effective ship classes ever for dealing with POSes?


You're right, I phrased that badly. Cloaks have two uses - the first, to evade combat, is rather irrelevant on a combat ship most of the time, and cloak bonuses have no real relevance on this role. The second, to dictate the terms of combat, is relevant. The utility of them is somewhat degraded by local chat, but the principle is essentially that of guerrilla warfare. Strike from hiding, hit an underdefended target in an unexpected place, do disproportionate damage, and retreat.

Thing is, that tactic is the standard one for guerrilla warfare, but it also sees use in conventional warfare - think of it as an ambush. In a symmetrical fight in Eve at present, the only target really worth ambushing is a cyno jammer. Convoys are virtually nonexistent with all the buffs to jump logistics over the years, and it's not like you can drop a POS with a lightning strike - even if the HP counts allowed it, strontium doesn't. Because of this, in alliance warfare "covert attack" = "drop a cyno jammer before the defender can respond" so far as I can tell. Once the jammer is down, your capitals come in and you're on an equal footing, but you have to break the defence first. The standard battleship column does this, but that's not stealthy in the slightest, and as such exposes you to counterattack. On the other hand, you can(theoretically) send a few covops to wander through enemy territory, find an unoccupied system, drop a covert cyno, bring in a hundred bombers, put down a jammer in a few minutes, extract the fragile ships, and get to the whole happy-fun-dreadnought-time phase of the battle.

As for actual asymmetric warfare, I think the ship sort of performs its role properly, and the proposed change isn't really a buff. If you want to make black ops work better for proper asymmetric warfare, you're going to have to put a module on it that breaks local chat somehow - let you actually have hidden forces hang around, instead of just cloaking and telling the enemy that there's 50 reds in system. Yes, the bridge does a similar job at present, but that's the only way of giving them an asymmetrical warfare boost I can think of offhand, and since it's at least moderately insane it won't happen. BO already provide huge mobility for strike fleets of the right composition, both in the attack and the retreat. If you can't figure out a way to make use of that as a guerrilla, I really don't know what to give you.

Rajere
Immortalis Inc.
Shadow Cartel
Posted - 2009.06.02 06:52:00 - [21]
 

covert attacks and alliance level warfare over sovereignty do not mix. You can easily achieve a "surprise" attack which is far more effective than your 100 bombers on a cynojammer with a conventional fleet + titan bridge to a nearby system. Or simply attack someone who's primetime is a different TZ than yours. You don't see a cry for more "covert" attack options for sov warfare, or complaints about lack of ships which would fill the "role" of covert sov attacks because not only is it already achievable as described above, but because it's of very marginal benefit. "Surprise! we're taking your space!" doesn't really amount to much when the attack is going to take a month to finish even if they don't defend, and even if you had enough forces you still can't simultaneously "surprise!" attack enough systems to achieve victory any faster.

That leaves asymmetric warfare, which you agree they fulfill their role there. However if you wanted to boost them there, you simply need to increase their dps. There's no point in mucking about with local at all, the blackops role exists primarily because of local.

Omega87
Caldari
The Night Haunter Brigade
Posted - 2009.06.02 10:00:00 - [22]
 

Edited by: Omega87 on 02/06/2009 09:59:57
Obviously every Goon within a 500 LY radius will be running to this thread to support it.

I however will not. find 50k radius of such a device to be extremely excessive. Stick with interceptors and drone dragging ect. Cloakers already get caught and cloaking is certainly not the end all be all of warfare. I DO agree that Black Ops need a role, but making an iWin button against cloakers is not the solution.

Not Supported.

Zostera
Minmatar
Sniggerdly
Pandemic Legion
Posted - 2009.06.02 10:15:00 - [23]
 

Considering a Bops BS is likely flying with a cloaking gang of recons and bombers I think this would end up being a white elephant mod. Decloaking your own gang ftl.

Not supported.

Dragon Greg
Posted - 2009.06.02 11:32:00 - [24]
 

Edited by: Dragon Greg on 02/06/2009 11:46:39
Originally by: Zostera
Considering a Bops BS is likely flying with a cloaking gang of recons and bombers I think this would end up being a white elephant mod. Decloaking your own gang ftl.

Not supported.


Got to agree there :/

There's more elegant ways to deal with excessive abuse of cloaking: one could imagine having it use fuel proportional to the ship's mass for instance. Still, at least it would add a role to the ship. In spite of their role in black ops gangs that still strikes me as limited.


Mana Sanqua
Posted - 2009.06.02 14:02:00 - [25]
 

I'd rather a dedicated ship such as a second tech 2 dessie was brought in to do this. Fragile, but lethal to covops would seem to be a fair trade off given the effectiveness of such a module.

Santiago Fahahrri
Gallente
Galactic Geographic
Posted - 2009.06.02 14:18:00 - [26]
 

Edited by: Santiago Fahahrri on 02/06/2009 14:41:03
No. A decloaking module equipped ship would become standard at every bubble camp.

Drake Draconis
Minmatar
Shadow Cadre
Shadow Confederation
Posted - 2009.06.02 14:21:00 - [27]
 

1: Stupid idea that makes Black ops worse
2: Goonswarm spam posting
= Epic Fail thread.

not supported.

De'Veldrin
Minmatar
Norse'Storm Battle Group
Intrepid Crossing
Posted - 2009.06.02 14:30:00 - [28]
 

Based on my previous forum postings (e.g. Never trust anyone from GS - ever), I have to decline to offer my support to this idea.


Wu Jiaqiu
Minmatar
Dreddit
Test Alliance Please Ignore
Posted - 2009.06.02 14:36:00 - [29]
 

supported

Ahz
Posted - 2009.06.02 15:47:00 - [30]
 

Edited by: Ahz on 02/06/2009 15:48:13
Stumbling across this topic in the assembly hall explains a lot.

Would prefer that BONAR is implemented on some other ship. The BO are rapidly approaching awsomeness. BONAR will cause them to be nerfed in some other way.

There are T1 frig hulls without a T2 variant. Put BONAR on that.


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