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blankseplocked [proposition] macros: no, not that kind
 
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Delta Ecks
Posted - 2009.05.21 20:27:00 - [1]
 

I've seen at least three threads requesting different types of hotkey support for various aspects of the game. It needs attention. Why don't we just have a macro system like every other mmo?

for example:
/orbit t1 30k
/lock fleetassist
/launch drone group1

Of course their would be limits on how they could be used, i.e. macros cannot call macros. I'm not really sure if there are any cases where you would want to string together multiple commands, but it wouldn't be abusive anyways. I've only been playing about a month (though I probably have like 250 hours of game time in since then) but this just seems obvious to me.

SXYGeeK
Gallente
do you

Posted - 2009.05.21 22:21:00 - [2]
 

I agree with the ability to have more hotkey functions to the game .

It would present an avenue for "Macro" automation users to use to get more reliable input to the client, but it wouldn't allow doing anything you can't do in the UI already. "Macro" will just emulate a mouse as they do now, with or without a command macro system like this.

This would however be greatly usefull for the rest of us.

some possible uses for a macro command bound to a button...

Set various shield passwords

select warpable object under reticule and warp to at XXkm

Launch drone group named "snipers"

select ship under reticule, lock, and engage modules.

select nearest gate/bridge/portal and jump






Keitoshi Yamada
Caldari
Sephray Industries
Serenitas Solutus
Posted - 2009.05.21 22:44:00 - [3]
 

I agree with the OP, but also feel it could be overpowered....

BUT

FFXI solved this problem with a limited number of lines for macros, and no looping, etc.

Very limited macro-ing... yet very powerful.

:thumpsup:

Tesseract d'Urberville
Tadakastu-Obata Corporation
The Honda Accord
Posted - 2009.05.21 22:59:00 - [4]
 

Obviously a feature like this would warrant a lot of testing to make sure it's not overpowered... but I like the idea of legitimate non-afk macros to simplify common tasks, especially potentially time-critical ones that require multiple steps to do by hand; this isn't supposed to be a twitch game, but the interface forces it to be sometimes (e.g., selecting, locking a target, and engaging modules; or selecting an escape point and warping away).

Herschel Yamamoto
Agent-Orange
Nabaal Syndicate
Posted - 2009.05.21 23:07:00 - [5]
 

As long as they're careful about it, and don't let players do too crazy of things, yes. Other games have managed that balancing act just fine, and I'm sure CCP can too. This and a moddable UI are things Eve needs desperately - no game this complex can be played anywhere near well enough with the standard UI, even if that standard UI was good, which Eve's clearly isn't. Supported.

Keitoshi Yamada
Caldari
Sephray Industries
Serenitas Solutus
Posted - 2009.05.21 23:11:00 - [6]
 

Originally by: Herschel Yamamoto
no game this complex can be played anywhere near well enough with the standard UI, even if that standard UI was good, which Eve's clearly isn't. Supported.


Sorry, have to lol here...

You just contradicted yourself...

"No game this complex would work with a standard UI, even if that UI was good"

Whataminute...


Custom UI's aren't always better than developer UI's

If the standard UI was 'good' as you say, it would be fine. This is why it /needs/ custom UI's, or a 'good' UI.

Either works, and your statement argues against both :3

</devilsadvocate>

Herschel Yamamoto
Agent-Orange
Nabaal Syndicate
Posted - 2009.05.21 23:21:00 - [7]
 

Originally by: Keitoshi Yamada
Originally by: Herschel Yamamoto
no game this complex can be played anywhere near well enough with the standard UI, even if that standard UI was good, which Eve's clearly isn't. Supported.


Sorry, have to lol here...

You just contradicted yourself...

"No game this complex would work with a standard UI, even if that UI was good"

Whataminute...


Custom UI's aren't always better than developer UI's

If the standard UI was 'good' as you say, it would be fine. This is why it /needs/ custom UI's, or a 'good' UI.

Either works, and your statement argues against both :3

</devilsadvocate>


Oh, certainly a lot of bad custom UIs get made, there's no doubt about that. Thing is, you don't have to use those - you find the one you want and ignore the hundred you don't. And if one is just better, it's the one that'll pass by word of mouth, and it's the one that the most people will wind up using. And the reason why even a good default UI isn't good enough is that not everyone wants the same thing. There's room for improvements, but even the best defaults won't satisfy everybody, and so I want to see both improvements and room for customization.

Drake Draconis
Minmatar
Shadow Cadre
Shadow Confederation
Posted - 2009.05.21 23:49:00 - [8]
 

Not supported.

Give them an inch... they will take a mile.

There is just too many ways this could go wrong very quickly.

I'm not saying this is a bad idea... its a rather good one... I'm not saying its stupid... I'm saying there are a lot of stupid things that could happen as a result of this proposal.

Delta Ecks
Posted - 2009.05.22 11:05:00 - [9]
 

Of course it would be very important to heavily restrict what can and can't be done, but you must understand that we are talking about a few commands. Add a few restrictions, and there isn't really any room for abuse, simply convenience.

-macros cannot call macros
-macros cannot wait/delay
-macros are very limited in scope & length
-macros cannot target based on name alone, i.e. no "/lock veldspar /activate hi[1-3]"
Can anyone even think of something that would be abusive given those rules (and a reasonable set of commands)?


What I really want for eve is for gameplay to feel smoother, and I think this would be a good step in that direction.

mazzilliu
Caldari
Sniggerdly
Pandemic Legion
Posted - 2009.05.23 03:54:00 - [10]
 

Edited by: mazzilliu on 23/05/2009 03:55:59
Originally by: Delta Ecks
Of course it would be very important to heavily restrict what can and can't be done, but you must understand that we are talking about a few commands. Add a few restrictions, and there isn't really any room for abuse, simply convenience.

-macros cannot call macros
-macros cannot wait/delay
-macros are very limited in scope & length
-macros cannot target based on name alone, i.e. no "/lock veldspar /activate hi[1-3]"
Can anyone even think of something that would be abusive given those rules (and a reasonable set of commands)?


What I really want for eve is for gameplay to feel smoother, and I think this would be a good step in that direction.


people can already do all those functions if they download an "unauthorized" macro program. CCP should legitimize all macroing and make limitations to macro behavior inherent in game mechanics rather then in EULA rules- especially as there is no system to detect and ban macros efficiently implemented in the game software.

for example implement some way for people to sell items on the market at a range of prices rather then giving market macroers the upper hand- or allow macro mining, so cheaters dont get an unfair advantage- but if a player steals your stuff due to your inattentiveness... well that's EVE for you.

there's a lot of far reaching consequences and the idea will need a lot more thought and re-balancing but i think it's got a lot of potential for being really cool and useful and making EVE more fun and reduce the headaches.


Herschel Yamamoto
Agent-Orange
Nabaal Syndicate
Posted - 2009.05.23 14:20:00 - [11]
 

Originally by: mazzilliu
people can already do all those functions if they download an "unauthorized" macro program. CCP should legitimize all macroing and make limitations to macro behavior inherent in game mechanics rather then in EULA rules- especially as there is no system to detect and ban macros efficiently implemented in the game software.

for example implement some way for people to sell items on the market at a range of prices rather then giving market macroers the upper hand- or allow macro mining, so cheaters dont get an unfair advantage- but if a player steals your stuff due to your inattentiveness... well that's EVE for you.

there's a lot of far reaching consequences and the idea will need a lot more thought and re-balancing but i think it's got a lot of potential for being really cool and useful and making EVE more fun and reduce the headaches.


I think your proposal goes a bit too far - things like adjusting orders and mining without the player having to think are the sort of things macros specifically should not be able to do. A macro should look something like "Ctrl-click, macro button, and now I'm targeting him and orbit 500ing him with all my modules set on". Instantaneous, the result of a player's action, and a simplification of a complex, repetitious set of actions the player would otherwise have to take. Introducing legal macro mining is exactly the sort of thing I don't want to see.

Kasi Kasai
Posted - 2009.05.23 18:57:00 - [12]
 

Edited by: Kasi Kasai on 23/05/2009 18:58:26
Having been watching the "reverse progress" of Darkfail, I have to conclude that letting people add to or alter the client in any way is just not a good idea.
why not learn to work with what you have like everyone else in eve does? Or you could apply to ccp as a UI designer.

Not supported.

Edit: spelling and grammarEmbarassed


Taedrin
Gallente
Kushan Industrial
Posted - 2009.05.23 20:22:00 - [13]
 

Not supported.

In certain other MMOs, especially a certain popular one, macros and UI addons have almost become a REQUIREMENT to remain competitive in the game. Though EVE Online's UI is pretty horrible, all players are on the same relative playing field.

Herschel Yamamoto
Agent-Orange
Nabaal Syndicate
Posted - 2009.05.23 22:38:00 - [14]
 

Originally by: Kasi Kasai
Having been watching the "reverse progress" of Darkfail, I have to conclude that letting people add to or alter the client in any way is just not a good idea.
why not learn to work with what you have like everyone else in eve does? Or you could apply to ccp as a UI designer.

Not supported.


If you bugger up your own client, you're the only one who has to live with it. Isn't that the whole Eve philosophy - accepting the consequences of your own actions? I know dealing with whatever fail the devs throw at us is also the Eve player's philosophy, but in that case it's more a matter of it being inevitable than of it being good.

As for the "or apply for a job" bit, reminds me of a forum exchange one of my corpies had with a dev.

Dev: "If you think you can do better, we have a job opening."
Corpie: "http://wow.curse.com - Check please"

Originally by: Taedrin
Not supported.

In certain other MMOs, especially a certain popular one, macros and UI addons have almost become a REQUIREMENT to remain competitive in the game. Though EVE Online's UI is pretty horrible, all players are on the same relative playing field.


So what you're saying is that the player base is so much better at coding a UI than the actual devs that not only is the dev UI inferior, it's not even in the same ballpark, and anyone using it is at a competitive disadvantage? Surely, that is the greatest ad for dev-made UIs ever.

Haguu
Caldari
TLA Ltd

Posted - 2009.05.24 00:00:00 - [15]
 

Supported. it seems like an obvious enhancement. Plus, I would greatly appreciate anything that makes it less of a twitchfest.

Bunyip
Gallente
Center for Advanced Studies
Posted - 2009.05.24 03:38:00 - [16]
 

So long as it's handled with a fine attention to detail, I'm in favor of this. Just don't make it too easy, and have limited steps able to be macroed (such as how CoH does macros), and it should be fine. They could even make them buttons to put in the unavailable/unused parts of the module overview.

mazzilliu
Caldari
Sniggerdly
Pandemic Legion
Posted - 2009.05.24 06:15:00 - [17]
 

Originally by: Kasi Kasai
Edited by: Kasi Kasai on 23/05/2009 18:58:26
Having been watching the "reverse progress" of Darkfail, I have to conclude that letting people add to or alter the client in any way is just not a good idea.
why not learn to work with what you have like everyone else in eve does?



i don't know anything about darkfall, so please enlighten me. what is wrong with UI modification? how did they do it differently then world of warcraft? all the wow people i know of like their IU mods. So some for EVE would be pretty cool to have.

Originally by: Herschel Yamamoto

I think your proposal goes a bit too far - things like adjusting orders and mining without the player having to think are the sort of things macros specifically should not be able to do. A macro should look something like "Ctrl-click, macro button, and now I'm targeting him and orbit 500ing him with all my modules set on". Instantaneous, the result of a player's action, and a simplification of a complex, repetitious set of actions the player would otherwise have to take. Introducing legal macro mining is exactly the sort of thing I don't want to see.


the PVP macro I agree with, but macro mining is probably the only thing that will make mining popular and level the playing field between the people who use the only easy way to cheat at EVE, and the non-cheating players. they talk about revamping mining and aside from turning it into some minigame to keep people busy, macroing is the easiest solution. there are still consequences to macro mining- macro miners get their ore stolen and get their ships killed, in highsec and lowsec respectively.

a quick google search can get you set up with all the tools you need to macro already pretty easily, with low risk and high reward, but all those options are out of the reach of someone who wants to play the game within the rules. maybe if you want to prevent some really annoying consequences of macros, do not include pixel detection as a function, but other then that i think CCP should open the interface up more to the playerbase. CCP mentioned that the client is simply a "dumb terminal", so hacking it really does nothing except allow you to macro.

Also it would save CCP and the players a lot of headaches if CCP just released tools for players to use to make their own interface mods. All the complaints about the corporate interface, market interface, etc etc, would be pretty much solved overnight without additional effort by CCP. of course there will be consequences to this but i think its worth working through them because i'd like to be able to customize my UI more then just being able to turn it hot pink.


Furb Killer
Gallente
Posted - 2009.05.24 07:36:00 - [18]
 

Quote:
-macros cannot call macros

So, how would this have any influence at all? Instead of calling another macro they just copy the contents of the other macro.

Delta Ecks
Posted - 2009.05.24 11:08:00 - [19]
 

Quote:
So, how would this have any influence at all? Instead of calling another macro they just copy the contents of the other macro.


Let me clarify by mentioning something I forgot to:
-macros cannot use conditional logic (it cannot do anything but execute commands sequentially)

About addons: In wow, addons made the game better. They let players fill in gaps the programmers neglected to, and in that way accelerated game development. They were mandatory, but towards the end addons really improved only how information was presented to you - and I don't think anyone can deny that players should be able to control that to whatever degree they wish.

Furthermore, I wasn't talking about addons. If CCP wanted to make an API and add some addon support, that's a separate issue. All I want is the ability to not have to "right click> select orbit> scroll to 30k> click again". That's ******ed. This is a game that's considered "hardcore" and I find myself clicking all over the screen in the midst of combat. That is FAIL. You should never have to click except when you are selecting targets.

Drake Draconis
Minmatar
Shadow Cadre
Shadow Confederation
Posted - 2009.05.24 17:45:00 - [20]
 

Originally by: Delta Ecks
Quote:
So, how would this have any influence at all? Instead of calling another macro they just copy the contents of the other macro.


Let me clarify by mentioning something I forgot to:
-macros cannot use conditional logic (it cannot do anything but execute commands sequentially)

About addons: In wow, addons made the game better. They let players fill in gaps the programmers neglected to, and in that way accelerated game development. They were mandatory, but towards the end addons really improved only how information was presented to you - and I don't think anyone can deny that players should be able to control that to whatever degree they wish.

Furthermore, I wasn't talking about addons. If CCP wanted to make an API and add some addon support, that's a separate issue. All I want is the ability to not have to "right click> select orbit> scroll to 30k> click again". That's ******ed. This is a game that's considered "hardcore" and I find myself clicking all over the screen in the midst of combat. That is FAIL. You should never have to click except when you are selecting targets.


A macro by definition is an addon unless its not originally apart of the game's UI.

No on said EVE was gong to be easy..... stop being lazy.

Vaneshi SnowCrash
Posted - 2009.05.25 18:40:00 - [21]
 

I'm not sure on macro's. But user tweakable UI is something I could get behind; EVE is often described as a "spreadsheet in space" because of it's interface... despite the awe inspiring scenes that often appear on your screen.

Delta Ecks
Posted - 2009.05.27 15:52:00 - [22]
 

Quote:
A macro by definition is an addon unless its not originally apart of the game's UI.

No on said EVE was gong to be easy..... stop being lazy.


Wrong. I explained how it wasn't an addon. That's a separate issue. All I was talking about were a limited amount of commands, and the only reason I say that is because there are alot of different aspects of the game that need hotkey support, and this could take care of it all in one fell swoop.

Stop being lazy? How is petitioning for game improvements lazy? Hotkeys aren't lazy, aren't some kind of luxury, they're standard fare for mmos these days. Again, being forced to click is stupid.

I know all those 5 year players are probably fine with laggy-ui-clickfest, and are afraid of the game being homogenized into wow, but I think improving the UI, that thing which is one of the most cited flaws with this game, is a worthwhile goal.

Drake Draconis
Minmatar
Shadow Cadre
Shadow Confederation
Posted - 2009.05.27 16:37:00 - [23]
 

Originally by: Delta Ecks
Quote:
A macro by definition is an addon unless its not originally apart of the game's UI.

No on said EVE was gong to be easy..... stop being lazy.


Wrong. I explained how it wasn't an addon. That's a separate issue. All I was talking about were a limited amount of commands, and the only reason I say that is because there are alot of different aspects of the game that need hotkey support, and this could take care of it all in one fell swoop.

Stop being lazy? How is petitioning for game improvements lazy? Hotkeys aren't lazy, aren't some kind of luxury, they're standard fare for mmos these days. Again, being forced to click is stupid.

I know all those 5 year players are probably fine with laggy-ui-clickfest, and are afraid of the game being homogenized into wow, but I think improving the UI, that thing which is one of the most cited flaws with this game, is a worthwhile goal.


Hotkey - a Shortcut of keys mapped to do a function

Now.. how is that not being lazy again?

I Get what your saying.. UI needs improvement... but stop being a damned hypocrite about it and start clearing up your contradictions.


 

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