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Eltei
Posted - 2009.05.21 13:05:00 - [1]
 

Edited by: Eltei on 03/06/2009 10:43:59
Edited by: Eltei on 23/05/2009 22:39:06
Changing the Covetor's mining barge skill requirement

Current Issue:


Currently once a player has achieved the skills to pilot a retriever they skip the covetor and go directly to the hulk as its only a day of more skilling to pilot making the Covetor an obsolete ship and creating a huge gap between the Retriever and "next-in-line" ship upgrade.

With over 35+ days of skilling to pilot the Covetor, another day won't matter to skip it and get a hulk instead making the progression bar for the mining career unbalanced and a ship has become obsolete and useless as it was the best mining barge before the release of the hulk.

Suggested Fix:

Lowering the Covetors mining barge skill requirement from V to IV making the Coveter once again an attractable ship to obtain and a perfect ship to pilot while you skill for a hulk.
A retriever is inefficient compared to a Hulk which is over 150%+ better than a retriever, there needs to be a ship in between the retriever and hulk and its already in the game.. the Covetor, it just need to have it's requirements fixed to put it between the retriever and hulk.

This will bring balance to the mining career path and once again make the Coveter a useful ship players would actually use instead of skipping in favor of the hulk.

Thanks for reading and supporting this.

Zostera
Minmatar
Sniggerdly
Pandemic Legion
Posted - 2009.05.21 13:11:00 - [2]
 

Makes sense to me, although I hasten to add that I have mining lvl 2 and no other industry skills at all. Part of the reason for that is the length of training into a half decent ship (Covetor) for it to give a decent isk return on the investment in time.

Personally, and if anyone repeats this I will pod them, but I may be tempted to mine a bit in quieter (less pvp) times by poking some rocks for a change.

This may go some way to encouraging mining and increasing the minerals brought into game through mining. Therefore also reducing the 40% balance of minerals brought in via loot.

It won't be a huge change I expect, but a collection of smaller balances, of which this could be one, offer a better overall solution.

Supported.


LaVista Vista
Conservative Shenanigans Party
Posted - 2009.05.21 13:12:00 - [3]
 

Edited by: LaVista Vista on 21/05/2009 13:11:41
When we discussed revamping of mining at Iceland, this was a major point.

Because a Mining Barge V requirement for a Covetor is stupid, imo.

Eltei
Posted - 2009.05.21 13:41:00 - [4]
 

Originally by: LaVista Vista
Edited by: LaVista Vista on 21/05/2009 13:11:41
When we discussed revamping of mining at Iceland, this was a major point.

Because a Mining Barge V requirement for a Covetor is stupid, imo.


It's not stupid in my opinion, it should be there to be the buffer for those going towards a hulk.

But if CCP could consider decreasing the skill requirement of the covertor to only require mining barge lvl 4, you would obtain a much steadier and progressive curve of development as you will enable the practical use of the Covertor again in EvE as it would then truly become the "next-in-line" after the retriever.

As of what it stands now, its a major problem as the covertor is a pointless ship in eve and it realy deserves getting some light shed on it once more making it a "next-in-line" in the chain towards mining excellence.

LaVista Vista
Conservative Shenanigans Party
Posted - 2009.05.21 13:50:00 - [5]
 

Originally by: Eltei
Originally by: LaVista Vista
Edited by: LaVista Vista on 21/05/2009 13:11:41
When we discussed revamping of mining at Iceland, this was a major point.

Because a Mining Barge V requirement for a Covetor is stupid, imo.


It's not stupid in my opinion, it should be there to be the buffer for those going towards a hulk.

But if CCP could consider decreasing the skill requirement of the covertor to only require mining barge lvl 4, you would obtain a much steadier and progressive curve of development as you will enable the practical use of the Covertor again in EvE as it would then truly become the "next-in-line" after the retriever.

As of what it stands now, its a major problem as the covertor is a pointless ship in eve and it realy deserves getting some light shed on it once more making it a "next-in-line" in the chain towards mining excellence.

That's what I'm saying Wink

Aeryn Eden
Posted - 2009.05.21 14:08:00 - [6]
 

I fully support this.
it shouldn't thou be posted as a suggestion but rather an issue as the progression bar of the mining path in eve is currently to broken compared to all the other paths a new character would prefer to take.

Even older characters who wishes to skill in the industrial section and go for mining would benefit immensely by this as it would bring balance to the miners.

Eltei
Posted - 2009.05.21 14:10:00 - [7]
 

Originally by: Aeryn Eden
I fully support this.
it shouldn't thou be posted as a suggestion but rather an issue as the progression bar of the mining path in eve is currently to broken compared to all the other paths a new character would prefer to take.

Even older characters who wishes to skill in the industrial section and go for mining would benefit immensely by this as it would bring balance to the miners.


Yeah i agree with you on that this is actually more of an issue rather than a suggestion and it should in my opinion be address as soon as possible.

Sim Cognito
Cognito Consortium
Posted - 2009.05.21 14:16:00 - [8]
 

I pretty much agree with everything the OP said.I as a retriever pilot fully support your proposal /signed

Aeryn Eden
Posted - 2009.05.21 14:23:00 - [9]
 

Originally by: Sim Cognito
I pretty much agree with everything the OP said.I as a retriever pilot fully support your proposal /signed


If you try to compare other types of professions such as those who prefer combat/mission running, they have a far more steady and balanced progression in the game where they can obtain more firepower and better ships just within days of creating their character and after a week or 2-3 they already have surpassed all the miners in terms of profit and progression since they won't have to spend over a month just to get their next-in-line ship upgrade.

I believe that the current state of the miners progression needs to be attended quickly and hard to ensure that those who wishes to go down the miners path are able to enjoy their playtime and not being forced to sit in their station waiting for weeks until they can get a viable upgrade from the retriever.

Mika Hammer
Posted - 2009.05.21 14:24:00 - [10]
 

I agree fully.

There are more of such progression obstacles, like Cruiser V requirements for the next series of fighting ships' progressions that can be looked at, but this indeed makes the Covetor a useless ship. Never had one, went directly to Hulk.

Mika

Galen Gallente
Gallente
Agent-Orange
Nabaal Syndicate
Posted - 2009.05.21 14:34:00 - [11]
 

Originally by: Mika Hammer
I agree fully.

There are more of such progression obstacles, like Cruiser V requirements for the next series of fighting ships' progressions that can be looked at, but this indeed makes the Covetor a useless ship. Never had one, went directly to Hulk.

Mika


Ya I agree there are also to many instances of requiring "Skill V" as a secondary requirement for some ships.

To fly the next class of ship should require level 3 or 4 of the current class. To get to the T2 forms of each should require Level 4 of the current. If someone want to spend that 5-20 day space to get that last 5% of bonus then more power to them.

All of type Type 2 Frigates should require Rank 4 in Frigates, General Piloting + 1 or 2 other skills at Rank 3 or 4. The Type 2 Destroyers have the insane requirements of Frigates 5, Destoryers 5 + several others.

Gallente Frigate V
Destroyers Destroyers V
Spaceship CommandSpaceship Command IV
InterceptorsInterceptors IV
Evasive ManeuveringEvasive Maneuvering V

The point should be to open up more options to the player base and only force specialization if they one the last 5-10% extra bonus.




Karnoz
Posted - 2009.05.21 14:38:00 - [12]
 

Originally by: Aeryn Eden
Originally by: Sim Cognito
I pretty much agree with everything the OP said.I as a retriever pilot fully support your proposal /signed


If you try to compare other types of professions such as those who prefer combat/mission running, they have a far more steady and balanced progression in the game where they can obtain more firepower and better ships just within days of creating their character and after a week or 2-3 they already have surpassed all the miners in terms of profit and progression since they won't have to spend over a month just to get their next-in-line ship upgrade.

I believe that the current state of the miners progression needs to be attended quickly and hard to ensure that those who wishes to go down the miners path are able to enjoy their playtime and not being forced to sit in their station waiting for weeks until they can get a viable upgrade from the retriever.


I couldn't agree with you more Aeryn, also this whole suggestion is about time we get some changes to this matter, its an issue more than it should be a suggestion.

Drake Draconis
Minmatar
Shadow Cadre
Shadow Confederation
Posted - 2009.05.21 14:45:00 - [13]
 

They either need to make Covetors available at Mining Barges IV or Hulks available at Exhumers IV (if not V).

The gap between covetor and hulk needs to be much wider than it is now....

I'm in favor of making Covetor come sooner...not later.

Karnoz
Posted - 2009.05.21 15:02:00 - [14]
 

Originally by: Drake Draconis
They either need to make Covetors available at Mining Barges IV or Hulks available at Exhumers IV (if not V).

The gap between covetor and hulk needs to be much wider than it is now....

I'm in favor of making Covetor come sooner...not later.


Making the hulk available at exhumer lvl 4 would just worsen the matter. but yes, make the covertor available at mining barge IV is the best option as it would close the gap between retriever pilots and hulk pilots providing an upgrade in between those two ships.

Valkyrie Aeris
Amarr
Industry Of Death
Posted - 2009.05.21 15:04:00 - [15]
 

Originally by: Karnoz
Originally by: Drake Draconis
They either need to make Covetors available at Mining Barges IV or Hulks available at Exhumers IV (if not V).

The gap between covetor and hulk needs to be much wider than it is now....

I'm in favor of making Covetor come sooner...not later.


Making the hulk available at exhumer lvl 4 would just worsen the matter. but yes, make the covertor available at mining barge IV is the best option as it would close the gap between retriever pilots and hulk pilots providing an upgrade in between those two ships.


Aye i agree

Tesseract d'Urberville
Tadakastu-Obata Corporation
The Honda Accord
Posted - 2009.05.21 15:36:00 - [16]
 

Originally by: Drake Draconis
They either need to make Covetors available at Mining Barges IV or Hulks available at Exhumers IV (if not V).

The gap between covetor and hulk needs to be much wider than it is now....

I'm in favor of making Covetor come sooner...not later.
Quite so.

Valkyrie Aeris
Amarr
Industry Of Death
Posted - 2009.05.21 17:12:00 - [17]
 

Originally by: Tesseract d'Urberville
Originally by: Drake Draconis
They either need to make Covetors available at Mining Barges IV or Hulks available at Exhumers IV (if not V).

The gap between covetor and hulk needs to be much wider than it is now....

I'm in favor of making Covetor come sooner...not later.
Quite so.


I can't say i'd support the making of hulk requiring a higher level of exhumers as I feel that it already takes long enough to be able to pilot a ship like that.

But the matter needs to be focused on fixing the gap between what ship to look at once your in the retriever cause so far, the Covertor is left in the dark and has ended up being a useless ship in eve as everyone just skips it going straight for the Hulk wich takes just a few more days of skilling to obtain.

If we could rally the support and get the mining barge skill required for the Covertor lowered down to IV we would have shaved of over 20 days of skill training required to pilot it thus making it a viable next-in-line ship to obtain before starting to skill towards the Hulk.

To perhaps make this a lot more balanced it would be a good choice to add a requirement of spaceship command IV requirement to the Covertor and raise the hulks spaceship requirement to lvl V instead of IV.
By doing so there will be brought balance to the progression curve for a miners career path making it easier and survivable when trying to play this path in the game.

This should be a equal terms of boosting and nerfing that should gain the support by not only the older players but new ones as well.

Keitoshi Yamada
Caldari
Sephray Industries
Serenitas Solutus
Posted - 2009.05.21 18:30:00 - [18]
 

Originally by: Galen Gallente
Originally by: Mika Hammer
I agree fully.

There are more of such progression obstacles, like Cruiser V requirements for the next series of fighting ships' progressions that can be looked at, but this indeed makes the Covetor a useless ship. Never had one, went directly to Hulk.

Mika


Ya I agree there are also to many instances of requiring "Skill V" as a secondary requirement for some ships.

To fly the next class of ship should require level 3 or 4 of the current class. To get to the T2 forms of each should require Level 4 of the current. If someone want to spend that 5-20 day space to get that last 5% of bonus then more power to them.

All of type Type 2 Frigates should require Rank 4 in Frigates, General Piloting + 1 or 2 other skills at Rank 3 or 4. The Type 2 Destroyers have the insane requirements of Frigates 5, Destoryers 5 + several others.

Gallente Frigate V
Destroyers Destroyers V
Spaceship CommandSpaceship Command IV
InterceptorsInterceptors IV
Evasive ManeuveringEvasive Maneuvering V

The point should be to open up more options to the player base and only force specialization if they one the last 5-10% extra bonus.






Ok, I agree that we need more gradient for mining ships...

But not this quote. Not this quote at all.

Requiring V for T2 ships makes /perfect/ sense. Just like how you require V for most T2 gear. T2 requires time and effort. Taking something to IV in 4 days isn't time and effort, and most people wouldn't ever train a V skill again.

Honestly, I think the OP is a wonderful idea, but this quote is completely ignorant to the fact that there's a reason the per-level boosts are small. Maybe if they were bigger it'd work, but it wouldn't change the fact that if things were the way stated in the quote, no one would /ever/ train those skills to V.

Supportive to OP.

Valkyrie Aeris
Amarr
Industry Of Death
Posted - 2009.05.21 21:46:00 - [19]
 

Originally by: Keitoshi Yamada


Requiring V for T2 ships makes /perfect/ sense. Just like how you require V for most T2 gear. T2 requires time and effort. Taking something to IV in 4 days isn't time and effort, and most people wouldn't ever train a V skill again.

Honestly, I think the OP is a wonderful idea, but this quote is completely ignorant to the fact that there's a reason the per-level boosts are small. Maybe if they were bigger it'd work, but it wouldn't change the fact that if things were the way stated in the quote, no one would /ever/ train those skills to V.

Supportive to OP.


Some posts are getting off topic here I can agree to that.

I'd like for more people to open their eyes and respond to this matter.
This is an issue that needs to be addressed cause it's affecting a lot of peoples playtime, playstyle and in game experience which could be the turning point of whether or not a new player would even bother continue playing as one of eve's most basic profession needs an serious do over and this is how they can start.
By fixing the biggest gap in the mining fleet.

Lower the mining barge level requirement on the Covertor to lvl IV to make this ship a viable upgrade from the retriever on your path towards perfection in your chosen career path.

DragonWarp
Amarr
Forsaken Forerunners
Fidelas Constans
Posted - 2009.05.21 22:26:00 - [20]
 

I agree completely, lowering the requirement for the Covertor to 4 (both for mining barge, and for astrogeology) makes a lot of sense.

This is kind of off topic, but what about adding a 3rd tier of mining barges, something that could truly be called a capital mining ship? The Orca or Rorq are all well and good, but they aren't actually for mining, they are for supporting miners.

I would love to see a capital mining ship of some kind....

Anyway, full support for the Covertor having it's skill requirements lowered!

SXYGeeK
Gallente
do you

Posted - 2009.05.21 22:40:00 - [21]
 

I support the OP.
Covetor beeing reduced to mining barge lvl 4 makes a lot of sense.
LVL5 is a nice barrier of entry for tech 2 gear, but most tech 1 stuff does not require lvl 5, and shouldn't.

It would be nice to see another barge above hulk, perhaps requiring exhumers 4 or 5. something with 4 strip mining slots, a third low slot, and a nice shield tank capacity. call it a deep space mining barge. but this is another topic entirely :P

Valkyrie Aeris
Amarr
Industry Of Death
Posted - 2009.05.21 22:44:00 - [22]
 

Originally by: DragonWarp
I agree completely, lowering the requirement for the Covertor to 4 (both for mining barge, and for astrogeology) makes a lot of sense.

This is kind of off topic, but what about adding a 3rd tier of mining barges, something that could truly be called a capital mining ship? The Orca or Rorq are all well and good, but they aren't actually for mining, they are for supporting miners.

I would love to see a capital mining ship of some kind....

Anyway, full support for the Covertor having it's skill requirements lowered!


Lowering the astrogeology skill would just end up making the retriever a pointless ship to go for since the Covetor would be a better alternativ since it would put the Covetor/hulk case and make it into a Retriever/Covetor case.

By just lowering the mining barge lvl requirement you put the Covertor right in between the Retriver and Hulk in terms of skill training time it takes to obtain those.

After you have skilled for the retriver you would have to endure 15.5 days roughly estimated before you could pilot a Covertor if the mining barge requirement was lowered from V to IV.
After that you would have to endure a little over 21 days of skill training given that you have by that time +3 implants, lvl IV T1 learning skills and III T2 learning skills.

It would bring balance into the mining barge flotilla.

This is a matter that needs to be fixed not in the future, but NOW.

For the future once we've gotten this changed, then we could start asking for a ship that could surpass even the hulk in terms of mining ;)

Aeryn Eden
Posted - 2009.05.21 22:52:00 - [23]
 

Edited by: Aeryn Eden on 21/05/2009 22:52:49
I agree with what Valkyrie Aeris is saying about bringing balance to the system and not ending up making it to easy while doing so.

It's obvious that we are not asking for some major buff or massive nerf here, just simply trying to raise the voices of the people to address a vital starting point in the whole system for bringing new life into the mining path of the game.

I strictly believe that this isn't a massive change that could affect the entire eve universe, but it will change the game experience for people as they will finally have a more steady bar of development in their chosen career path while at the same time bringing the Covertor back out there in the asteroid fields :)

So let me hear you all give your thumbs up and lets get this change implemented!

What do we want? lowered level requirements of the skill mining barge from V to IV on the Covertor!
When do we want it? !!YESTERDAY!!

Karnoz
Posted - 2009.05.21 23:04:00 - [24]
 

If we could get this fix implemented as soon as possible it would be the perfect step in the right direction for the CCP dev's making changes to the current mining system in eve which so many people desires that it gets a makeover.

Keitoshi Yamada
Caldari
Sephray Industries
Serenitas Solutus
Posted - 2009.05.21 23:08:00 - [25]
 

Originally by: Valkyrie Aeris
Originally by: Keitoshi Yamada


Requiring V for T2 ships makes /perfect/ sense. Just like how you require V for most T2 gear. T2 requires time and effort. Taking something to IV in 4 days isn't time and effort, and most people wouldn't ever train a V skill again.

Honestly, I think the OP is a wonderful idea, but this quote is completely ignorant to the fact that there's a reason the per-level boosts are small. Maybe if they were bigger it'd work, but it wouldn't change the fact that if things were the way stated in the quote, no one would /ever/ train those skills to V.

Supportive to OP.


Some posts are getting off topic here I can agree to that.

I'd like for more people to open their eyes and respond to this matter.
This is an issue that needs to be addressed cause it's affecting a lot of peoples playtime, playstyle and in game experience which could be the turning point of whether or not a new player would even bother continue playing as one of eve's most basic profession needs an serious do over and this is how they can start.
By fixing the biggest gap in the mining fleet.

Lower the mining barge level requirement on the Covertor to lvl IV to make this ship a viable upgrade from the retriever on your path towards perfection in your chosen career path.


Thanks for picking out the negative in my statement. I was saying I agree that the Cov should be a lvl 4 ship.

I was just arguing with that other person about how "T2 ships shouldn't take lvlV skills"

I wholly agree with the fact that the Cov, with the current skill requirements, is stupidly useless.

De'Veldrin
Minmatar
Norse'Storm Battle Group
Intrepid Crossing
Posted - 2009.05.22 17:47:00 - [26]
 

I agree with the OP in principle. The Covetor's only real purpose right now is as a seed ship to build Hulks.

Or for mining in areas that may be dangerous, because you can adequately insure it.

Aside from that, it's a useless bit of kit - forget three days, it only took me 19 or 20 hours to go from "Can Fly Covetor" to "Can Fly Hulk".

Why would I buy a covetor to use it for 19 hours? 12 - 16 of which I will be sleeping or at work?


Maxsim Goratiev
Gallente
Imperial Tau Syndicate
POD-SQUAD
Posted - 2009.05.22 18:59:00 - [27]
 

i was also surprised buy the gap. it should be adjusted.

Max Sellmore
HMYOFB
The Ronin Brotherhood
Posted - 2009.05.22 19:00:00 - [28]
 

Originally by: Mika Hammer
...progressions that can be looked at, but this indeed makes the Covetor a useless ship. Never had one, went directly to Hulk.

This is certainly true of my toon, and likely that of anyone with a real interest in mining. Some combat pilots might stop at Covetor since they don't want to spend the Isk on the next skill book, but the benefits of a Hulk over a Covetor are well worth the money and require only about an extra day!

Max

Israfil Azrael
Posted - 2009.05.23 13:14:00 - [29]
 

Edited by: Israfil Azrael on 23/05/2009 13:18:05
Edited by: Israfil Azrael on 23/05/2009 13:16:52
The requirements for the covertor indeed needs to be looked at by CCP to fix the gap between Retriever and the next-in-line ship.

Good that someone spots exactly what needs to be done without suggesting some major unbalanced change to be made.
This is just logical and nothing else.

Set the mining barge lvl requirement down to IV and a lot of people will rejoice.

Sep'Shoni
Gallente
Carpe Diem inc.

Posted - 2009.05.23 19:05:00 - [30]
 

Originally by: Drake Draconis
They either need to make Covetors available at Mining Barges IV or Hulks available at Exhumers IV (if not V).

The gap between covetor and hulk needs to be much wider than it is now....

I'm in favor of making Covetor come sooner...not later.


As a young character miner plodding through the training to finally get 3 strip miners and a worthwhile cargo hold I agree.

The only reason to get a Covertor now is if you can't afford a hulk.

And the ore bonus for Mining Barge IV has made the retriever's inadequate cargohold issues even worse.

If i could have that 3rd strip miner on the Covetor for a month while training for the hulk I'd be able to afford it as soon as the training is complete.


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