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DarthVindictus
Posted - 2009.05.18 18:37:00 - [1]
 

I saw the post about the CSM Submissions and the entry:

http://wiki.eveonline.com/wiki/Small_freighters

Ok the Orca does not fit that spot that is detailed in this request.

The Orca training path is completely different and is related to Mining not shipping.

The Transport Ships training path is ideal for the addition of a Light Freighter ship class. There should be a natural progression of skills which the Orca deviates from way to much to be useful to fill such a role. Maybe with a character that has 20+ million skill points so what is another 1-2 but to go into a completely different direction to fill the middle step between Industrials and Freighters is insane.

For Obelisk
Primary Skill required
Advanced Spaceship Command I
Spaceship Command V
Secondary Skill required
Gallente Freighter I
Advanced Spaceship Command I
Spaceship Command V
Gallente Industrial V
Spaceship Command III
Gallente Frigate III
Spaceship Command I

Iteron V
Primary Skill required
Gallente Industrial V
Spaceship Command III
Gallente Frigate III
Spaceship Command I

Occator - T2 Industrial
Primary Skill required
Gallente Industrial V
Spaceship Command III
Gallente Frigate III
Spaceship Command I
Secondary Skill required
Transport Ships I
Spaceship Command III
Industry V


Somewhere between the requirements for the Iteron V and the requirements for the Obelisk should come the light freighter class that has storage that is equivalent to what the Orca has now, we just don't need all of the extra bonuses and such. It is suppose to be a hauler/shipping vessel not a mining platform or mining C&C vessel.

Galen Gallente
Gallente
Agent-Orange
Nabaal Syndicate
Posted - 2009.05.18 18:40:00 - [2]
 

Bah, did not notice that is used an alt that I have set up for termination....

LaVista Vista
Conservative Shenanigans Party
Posted - 2009.05.18 18:44:00 - [3]
 

I'd tend to agree.

When I raised the small freighter issue, I wanted exactly what you wanted. CCP said that they would give us the Orca.

But it turned out that it wasn't quite what was requested. I did tell CCP that I wasn't quite satisfied with the Orca AS a small freighter. Alas Sad

Tesseract d'Urberville
Tadakastu-Obata Corporation
The Honda Accord
Posted - 2009.05.18 19:02:00 - [4]
 

Agreed.

Jason Edwards
Internet Tough Guy
Spreadsheets Online
Posted - 2009.05.18 20:28:00 - [5]
 

Quote:
The Orca training path is completely different and is related to Mining not shipping.

Damnation or eos or vulture has a completely wacky different training path also. Doesnt mean much; certainly doesnt mean it's not a command ship.

Orca is a small freighter and serves that purpose quite well.

Isaac Starstriker
Amarr
Frontier Venture
Posted - 2009.05.18 22:15:00 - [6]
 

Bigger cargo bay then Indy T2s: Yes
Able to carry Rigged ships even though no other freighters "technically" can: Yes
Is half the size, price, etc of a freighter: Yes
Can Tank like Indys: Yes (Within reason)

I see no reason to add yet another freight-oriented ship.

--Isaac

Santiago Fahahrri
Gallente
Galactic Geographic
Posted - 2009.05.18 23:54:00 - [7]
 

Originally by: Jason Edwards
Quote:
The Orca training path is completely different and is related to Mining not shipping.

Damnation or eos or vulture has a completely wacky different training path also. Doesnt mean much; certainly doesnt mean it's not a command ship.

Orca is a small freighter and serves that purpose quite well.


Something crazy is happening.. I agree with Jason Edwards.

Lianoras
Posted - 2009.05.19 00:34:00 - [8]
 

There are already small freighters. They're called...


jump freighters! ugh

Herschel Yamamoto
Agent-Orange
Nabaal Syndicate
Posted - 2009.05.19 03:39:00 - [9]
 

I quite like what CCP did with the Orca - it's a small freighter, good for moving rigged ships, and also a support vessel for mining ops to give it something to do that justifies the half-billion price tag. Between indys, TS, Orcas, JFs, and full Freighters, every imaginable combination of hauling capacity is already in place. We don't need more. Maybe a couple tweaks(rigged ships in freighters, say), but no new hulls.

Drake Draconis
Minmatar
Shadow Cadre
Shadow Confederation
Posted - 2009.05.19 06:06:00 - [10]
 

Originally by: Herschel Yamamoto
I quite like what CCP did with the Orca - it's a small freighter, good for moving rigged ships, and also a support vessel for mining ops to give it something to do that justifies the half-billion price tag. Between indys, TS, Orcas, JFs, and full Freighters, every imaginable combination of hauling capacity is already in place. We don't need more. Maybe a couple tweaks(rigged ships in freighters, say), but no new hulls.


this...

Cyberman Mastermind
Posted - 2009.05.19 09:59:00 - [11]
 

Try to move something that is above 100K in size.

It WOULD fit into an orca - if you could tear down the walls between cargo and corp hangar.

Why would it be bad if we had a small freighter? (I'm not even considering the jump freighters. They're T2 freighters, not "small freighters", even if they're technically smaller.)

Gieron
Sebiestor Tribe

Posted - 2009.05.19 12:49:00 - [12]
 

I don't really like what they did with the Orca. It's like they tried to solve too much with one ship. I would rather have had one small freighter per race and one mining command ship like the Orca but without the SMA and cargo. Though I wouldn't want to see it nerfed now.

I think it makes sense to introduce a new ship (for each race) that are basically the same as the Orca minus links and corp hangars but with some extra cargo space.

Shadow Devourer
Posted - 2009.05.19 13:05:00 - [13]
 

Originally by: Cyberman Mastermind
Try to move something that is above 100K in size.

It WOULD fit into an orca - if you could tear down the walls between cargo and corp hangar.

Why would it be bad if we had a small freighter? (I'm not even considering the jump freighters. They're T2 freighters, not "small freighters", even if they're technically smaller.)


This. We're still lacking an intermediate hauler that fits into the price progression unlike JFs.

Vuk Lau
4S Corporation
Morsus Mihi
Posted - 2009.05.19 14:45:00 - [14]
 

Well I woudnt mind smaller brother of freighter in the price range of Orca, but as a his big brother without any slots for fit or rigs.

W3370Pi4
Lamb Federation Navy
Posted - 2009.05.19 14:56:00 - [15]
 

Yes please and i find it quite awkward that CCP gave us the orca instead of the mini freighter we asked for
maybe they could even make a
mini freighter with 500K M3 ( just a rough idea )
and 1Million m3 of ship maintenance bay to haul rigged ships in empire

rigged ships are subject to trading aswell
and we need a solution to haul rigged ships

Simeon Whiteheaven
Posted - 2009.05.19 15:05:00 - [16]
 

You maybe right about this, we need something like small or light freighter.
Orca is more like mining support vessel, and we need some type of transport ship.
You have my support.

Drake Draconis
Minmatar
Shadow Cadre
Shadow Confederation
Posted - 2009.05.19 15:08:00 - [17]
 

The only way I'll even support this is if the Orca can handle 1 freight container's worth of stuff

But it stops there.

: O P

Otherwise your screwing up the balance.

There is no need for a smaller freighter... if you can't be bothered to buy the damn thing yourself then stop whining for a new ship.

SickSeven
Simplistic Syndicate
Posted - 2009.05.19 15:15:00 - [18]
 

It's called the Orca.

I dont see the devs putting out a new ship that does basically the exact same thing, just with a new training path.

Galen Gallente
Gallente
Agent-Orange
Nabaal Syndicate
Posted - 2009.05.19 17:56:00 - [19]
 

Originally by: SickSeven
It's called the Orca.

I dont see the devs putting out a new ship that does basically the exact same thing, just with a new training path.


I don't see what you mean about something with 40-60K cargo space as being the same as the Orca.

The progression Path is FUBARed. Why would you need to have:

Mining Barge V
AstrogeologyAstrogeology III
ScienceScience IV
MiningMining IV
Mining Director I
LeadershipLeadership I
Mining ForemanMining Foreman V

To fly a cargo moving vessel? It does not make sense.

There is nothing about mining anywhere when asking for a ship that is larger than the Industrial/Transport class and smaller than the Freighter. Hence the Light/Small Freighter designation request.

I am sorry if CCP duped you all into training for the Orca to fill this niche but it was a stupid decision. I am just calling it out after getting back into the game after a long break.

It may be a new training path, even though all it needs is one skill a "Small Freighter" skill with the same pre reqs as the "Freighter" if not a little less.

I would suggest to keep it like the Orca in that the ship is for all races, I am sick of seeing all of the different tiers of ships when there is no reason for them. The Obelisk and the rest did not need to be 1 per race. The super haulers should have been all the same.

Anyway adding 2 ships for all races, not each, would work nicely.

1 ship with 30-50K base cargo.
1 ship with enough space to move 1 assembled and fitted Battleship. Can only carry assembled ships.

Galen Gallente
Gallente
Agent-Orange
Nabaal Syndicate
Posted - 2009.05.19 18:09:00 - [20]
 

Edited by: Galen Gallente on 19/05/2009 18:09:19
Originally by: Herschel Yamamoto
I quite like what CCP did with the Orca - it's a small freighter, good for moving rigged ships, and also a support vessel for mining ops to give it something to do that justifies the half-billion price tag. Between indys, TS, Orcas, JFs, and full Freighters, every imaginable combination of hauling capacity is already in place. We don't need more. Maybe a couple tweaks(rigged ships in freighters, say), but no new hulls.


Well I will definitely not vote for you for CSM.

That is great if everything is capable of being hauled as you say, however that is not why we are requesting this. We are requesting a fix for the flaw in the progression of skills related to moving cargo and items.

I would hope the a CSM would not only look at issues that need fixed because of a bug but also look at making the systems and mechanics more consistent.

Can you explain why the Orca makes sense as being the intermediary between Indys/TSs and Freighters? If you look at the skills they do not make sense if the Orca should come first in progression of skill. Now due to the mechanics of what the ships are capable of they fit in the middle but the skill requirement is FUBAR.

Herschel Yamamoto
Agent-Orange
Nabaal Syndicate
Posted - 2009.05.19 20:17:00 - [21]
 

Originally by: Galen Gallente
Well I will definitely not vote for you for CSM.

That is great if everything is capable of being hauled as you say, however that is not why we are requesting this. We are requesting a fix for the flaw in the progression of skills related to moving cargo and items.

I would hope the a CSM would not only look at issues that need fixed because of a bug but also look at making the systems and mechanics more consistent.

Can you explain why the Orca makes sense as being the intermediary between Indys/TSs and Freighters? If you look at the skills they do not make sense if the Orca should come first in progression of skill. Now due to the mechanics of what the ships are capable of they fit in the middle but the skill requirement is FUBAR.


Sorry to hear that.

The reason it makes sense is that Mining Barge has essentially ceased to be the mining ships skill, and has become the ORE racial skill. Just like you need Indy 5 for TS or freighters, you need Barge 5 for Rorquals and Orcas. The skill isn't especially long for a pseudocapital ship, and it's the right one to use as a requisite for mining-focused ships. It's the problem with making it dual-role, but that was necessary in order to give it a role other than "bad freighter for people with no money". I don't see anything obviously wrong with the skill progression.

LaVista Vista
Conservative Shenanigans Party
Posted - 2009.05.19 21:15:00 - [22]
 

Originally by: Herschel Yamamoto


Sorry to hear that.

The reason it makes sense is that Mining Barge has essentially ceased to be the mining ships skill, and has become the ORE racial skill. Just like you need Indy 5 for TS or freighters, you need Barge 5 for Rorquals and Orcas. The skill isn't especially long for a pseudocapital ship, and it's the right one to use as a requisite for mining-focused ships. It's the problem with making it dual-role, but that was necessary in order to give it a role other than "bad freighter for people with no money". I don't see anything obviously wrong with the skill progression.


Problem is that an Orca doesn't give anything we don't already have with an Iteron 5, with rigs etc.

Calling Orca a mini-freighter isn't right. It's a more versatile industrial ship, with ship hangar and some mining bonuses.

Herschel Yamamoto
Agent-Orange
Nabaal Syndicate
Posted - 2009.05.19 23:14:00 - [23]
 

Originally by: LaVista Vista
Problem is that an Orca doesn't give anything we don't already have with an Iteron 5, with rigs etc.

Calling Orca a mini-freighter isn't right. It's a more versatile industrial ship, with ship hangar and some mining bonuses.


Three times the cargo capacity, give or take, and the ability to move (small) rigged ships. Even if you don't mine, it has utility that the Itty 5 just doesn't. It's no Titan, even at logistics, but it does have advantages.

Isaac Starstriker
Amarr
Frontier Venture
Posted - 2009.05.19 23:32:00 - [24]
 

Also, to answer those that complain: "It doesn't fit in the training skill plan". Sorry, but in my honest opinion, I think that the plan for a freighter isn't enough. Especially the Jump Freighter. So should we change it just because I think so?

No.

So your argument that the skill training plan is fubared is a moot point. (Example: Light Interdictors & Heavy Interdictors)

--Isaac

Drake Draconis
Minmatar
Shadow Cadre
Shadow Confederation
Posted - 2009.05.20 00:01:00 - [25]
 

Edited by: Drake Draconis on 20/05/2009 00:01:38
Originally by: Isaac Starstriker
Also, to answer those that complain: "It doesn't fit in the training skill plan". Sorry, but in my honest opinion, I think that the plan for a freighter isn't enough. Especially the Jump Freighter. So should we change it just because I think so?

No.

So your argument that the skill training plan is fubared is a moot point. (Example: Light Interdictors & Heavy Interdictors)

--Isaac


Uh Isaac.... 2 to 3 (assuming you have freighter already, if not add 2 months) months too short a time for skilling a jump freighter is not what I call a short time.
:O)

But I Get your point.... in a sense.

darius mclever
Posted - 2009.05.20 00:56:00 - [26]
 

Originally by: LaVista Vista
Originally by: Herschel Yamamoto


Sorry to hear that.

The reason it makes sense is that Mining Barge has essentially ceased to be the mining ships skill, and has become the ORE racial skill. Just like you need Indy 5 for TS or freighters, you need Barge 5 for Rorquals and Orcas. The skill isn't especially long for a pseudocapital ship, and it's the right one to use as a requisite for mining-focused ships. It's the problem with making it dual-role, but that was necessary in order to give it a role other than "bad freighter for people with no money". I don't see anything obviously wrong with the skill progression.


Problem is that an Orca doesn't give anything we don't already have with an Iteron 5, with rigs etc.

Calling Orca a mini-freighter isn't right. It's a more versatile industrial ship, with ship hangar and some mining bonuses.


Your Iteron 5 can do 129,000m + 400,000m ship maintenance bay?

Cyberman Mastermind
Posted - 2009.05.20 13:54:00 - [27]
 

Originally by: Herschel Yamamoto
Mining Barge has essentially ceased to be the mining ships skill, and has become the ORE racial skill.

Even if slightly off-topic, I have to quote THIS. It's high time CCP renames the Mining Barge skill to something less confusing.
If nothing else, it would at least reduce the repetition of the "the skills are weird" argument. (Which, currently, is true, because the skills ARE weird.)

Ignition SemperFi
No Falcons Allowed
Posted - 2009.05.20 16:06:00 - [28]
 

not supported.

ffs you got the orca or you have a itty5

or heaven forbid an occator

Galen Gallente
Gallente
Agent-Orange
Nabaal Syndicate
Posted - 2009.05.20 19:03:00 - [29]
 

Originally by: Ignition SemperFi
not supported.

ffs you got the orca or you have a itty5

or heaven forbid an occator


Ok lets reiterate a little bit because this seems to confuse some people.

The original post was to have a ship that is larger than an Indy but smaller than a freighter for a middle ground.

CCP responded by stating that the Orca fits that need.

The point I am saying is yes the Orca as is does fill that niche but it also has several other abilities.

What I am asking for and or suggesting is a ship that does not have the extra's and only fills the middle shipping ground.

The Orca has several other Secondary and Tertiary requirements that are not related to shipping.

Let me repeat this is about shipping, not mining, not hauling fitted ships (even though that is another area that is a bit lacking). It is like saying that Cars have to be shipped to the dealer in parts because transporting an assembled vehicle is too hard.

The Transport Ships do not fit this spot either, they have the same or less cargo space than Indys but have other fun stuff related to low sec transportation.

Jump Freighters do not fill the role either because they are the T2 of normal Freighters.

There should be a logical steady progression of shipping/cargo space which at present there is not. It is either 10-15K cargo or less and then the 500k+

There should be a middle ground in the 50k-250K range.

The middle ground should not require much else outside piloting and Indys as Indys should definitely be the the pre-requisite skill tree.

Actually all of the extra piloting skills for each race is a bit insane. The base type of ship should be the skill progression and then racial specializations should be applied later.

Keitoshi Yamada
Caldari
Sephray Industries
Serenitas Solutus
Posted - 2009.05.20 22:58:00 - [30]
 

Edited by: Keitoshi Yamada on 20/05/2009 22:58:37
I support.

Sure, I fly a freighter, but a mini-freighter would have a lot of use.

I agree that this mini-freighter should not have a ship maintenence bay.

I also don't believe it should have a corp hangar.

Or any fit.

The Orca is not a mini-freighter. I'm so sick of it being called that. It has a ship maintenence bay that only holds a few ships, it has a corp hangar that is fairly-sized but more of a capital-ship thing than a freighting-thing. It also has a fit. And it's cargo isn't very large at all, if you ignore the hangar and bay.

We don't want a command ship that can haul as its secondary use.
We want a small freighter.

Orca != Small Freighter
Orca = Sub-capital Industrial Command Ship

Freighter (800m ISK) = Hauling/Freighting skills
Orca (450m ISK) = Mining/Leadership skills
Small Freighter (100-300m ISK) = Hauling/Freighting skills

---

As for the hauling of rigged ships...

I think it's about time for us to have a Ship Freighter with NOTHING but a Ship Maintenance Bay...


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