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Sophie Joscelyne
Gallente
3rd Research Division
Posted - 2009.05.06 10:21:00 - [1]
 

Ive nearly hit my short term goals, and was woundering should i take time out of my goals to get all of learing skills to 5?

The basic learnig skills are all 4 with learning V and the T2 learning skills are 4? should i get them to 5?

Im an industrial charcter :D

Lecherito
Posted - 2009.05.06 10:38:00 - [2]
 

Edited by: Lecherito on 06/05/2009 10:38:47
Some bitter veterans might try to persuade you to train even the advanced ones to 5. I wouldn't bother, considering the massive time required and the fact that it takes literally *years* to gain anything from them. As for the basics to level 5, I didn't at first, once again due to the long period of "nothing" time they would have required. I've now reached a point in my career (after 4 months) where I don't really have any imminent need of any certain skill, a plateau if you will. Thus, I'm now taking the time to train the basics to 5. Eventually, you'll want to at least train the basics to 5, but I would not do so at the expensive of fun and with the possible result of losing interest and quitting Eve. But in the end, it is most definitely your call.

-L

Sophie Joscelyne
Gallente
3rd Research Division
Posted - 2009.05.06 10:52:00 - [3]
 

so you wouldnt say its a must? more of a preferance?

Cornelius Augustinus
Amarr
Imperial Academy
Posted - 2009.05.06 11:11:00 - [4]
 

you are fine with basics at 4 and advanced at 4. I wouldn't train the basic learning skills to 5 until after atleast 6 months when you would start to see a return on it.

DJTheBaron
Caldari
FinFleet
KenZoku
Posted - 2009.05.06 11:16:00 - [5]
 

Count yourself lucky, most of the older players had to train the basic skills to 5 before they could install the advanced skills.

Train basic learning skills to 4, advanced learnings to 3-4, & use cheap +1/+2 implants.

Theres no fun to be had in eve if you dont have the skills for that new ship you want, so train gameplay skills as a priority and find the time for learning 5's before you aim for tech 2 skills.



If you have the option to hike your intel/mem skillset to max, insert learnings then core skills such as electronics, engineering etc before shooting up perception/willpower layout for ships.

But i dont reccomend hardcore skill plans like that for new players who should just train fun things to experience the game before subscribing.

Sophie Joscelyne
Gallente
3rd Research Division
Posted - 2009.05.06 11:24:00 - [6]
 

I has +4's in and have mem and intel hicked maxxed out, (although i have one more remap) So even as a veteran you owould say dont bother until you can do what you reallly want to do in the game?

DJTheBaron
Caldari
FinFleet
KenZoku
Posted - 2009.05.06 12:16:00 - [7]
 

Edited by: DJTheBaron on 06/05/2009 12:23:30
Originally by: Sophie Joscelyne
I has +4's in and have mem and intel hicked maxxed out, (although i have one more remap) So even as a veteran you owould say dont bother until you can do what you reallly want to do in the game?


Whats the point of logging in otherwise?


If i was to start eve as a new player, i would take the following path. (Ship combat & missions to learn the game)

Train learning skills to 3 while running the tutorial agents who supply skills, fittings and a frigate.

Take the free frigate and go for the epic mission arc for income/experience while training for a cruiser.

Use the cruiser in the mission arc and missions while using teamwork with new found friends in the mission channel etc.

Once your flying the cruiser pretty well your going to have to save money to buy a battlecruiser, thankfully they use cruiser modules/skills. During this time train your basic learning skills to 4, buy and install advanced learning skills to 3-4.

Get that battlecruiser and start to make decent money.

Aim for a battleship but dont jump into one too soon.

Once you feel youve mastered your races tech 1 ships to a good level (lv4 for all related skills, 5 in core skills) sink some time into your learning before you aim for tech 2

Somewhere along the line its important to socialise with people ingame and find the right corp, the right corp is what makes the game playable for so many years. You may even find corps prepared to guide and sponser you, but try and learn things for yourself so you can adapt in eve.

Sophie Joscelyne
Gallente
3rd Research Division
Posted - 2009.05.06 12:44:00 - [8]
 

I can fly cruisers preety well already... And i just like to mine atm, ive not decided what path to take as a player yet! But I was woundering as im a perfectionist... is it worth getting my learning skills to V as it will increase all other training skilss(even if only a little bit) But as i understand from the reaction from most of you it is not worth it at all at the stage oif the game i am in :D

Thanks anyways

Malcanis
Caldari
Vanishing Point.
The Initiative.
Posted - 2009.05.06 13:02:00 - [9]
 

Originally by: Lecherito
Edited by: Lecherito on 06/05/2009 10:38:47
Some bitter veterans might try to persuade you to train even the advanced ones to 5.
-L


Most "bitter veterans" vehemently advise against doing this.

4+4 is fine for a newish character. In fact it's perfectly reasonable to just leave them at 4+4 forever. 5+5 is for the kind of person who just like the idea of "maxing out" their character, or at best for a 2nd-account alt who can be left in a station for 3 months.

Mine are at 5+4, mainly because it used to be that you had to get the basics to 5 before you could train the advanced.

Malcanis
Caldari
Vanishing Point.
The Initiative.
Posted - 2009.05.06 13:05:00 - [10]
 

Originally by: Sophie Joscelyne
so you wouldnt say its a must? more of a preferance?


A good way to look at it is this:

In EvE you need both character skills and player skills. Over-focusing on learning skills early on will boost your SP total at the expense of your experience.

You'll have lots of SP but less idea of what to do with them. (And less fun)

Emerhyz
Posted - 2009.05.06 13:36:00 - [11]
 

Learn level 5 of learning only when you don't know what to train.

When I didn't know what to train, I kept putting it in learning 5, while my friend trained for Falcon.

Now I have learning 5's all over, and Raven is my best ship.
While my friend also has a Raven, he lacks level 5 learning, and hates his Falcon now.

It's not needed, (Learning to 5's) but it's safe.

Tippia
Caldari
Sunshine and Lollipops
Posted - 2009.05.06 14:08:00 - [12]
 

Edited by: Tippia on 06/05/2009 21:47:06
From a purely mathematical standpoint, you can look at the value of learning skills like this:

Every extra level gives you +1 in an attribute. This equates to 1 additional SP more earned per minute in other skills that have this attribute as their primary (half an SP if secondary). This means that it takes the SP value of that level number of minutes before you start earning back the time spend training the learning skill (although the Learning skill complicates matters slightly with its percentual bonus).

Eg. #1

Analytical mind increases Int. Training from lvl III to lvl IV requires 37,255 SP (lvl IV is 45,255 - 8,000 you already have at lvl III). This means that it will take 37,255 minutes (~621h or roughly 26 days) of training skills with Int as their primary attribute before that level pays off.

Eg. #2

Analytical mind V requires 210,745 SP (256,000-45,255), and thus requires 146 days (210,754 / 60 / 24) of Int-primary training to earn back.

Eg. #3

Instead of analytical mind V, let's train Logic from nothing to IV, which requires 135,765 SP. It also gives you +4 Int, rather than just +1, so it only takes 1/4 the normal time to earn back which comes out as 23 days of Int-primary training (135,765 / 60 / 24 / 4)… Or, actually, slightly less since the lower levels are being payed back through training the higher levels since these are also Int-based. But pah! Details! Razz

Eg. #4

…then again, if you have some cash left over and already have the prerequisites, you can always just train Cybernetics I and stuff a full set of +3 implants in there. This requires 750 SP and gives you +3 SP/minute from the primary attribute and +1.5SP/minute from the secondary attribute for all skills trained afterwards. This means you've earned that training time back in less than 3 hours no matter what you train…


Note, though, that the whole "earn back" concept is rather fluent — it depends very much on what you consider your point of comparison. For instance, both #1 and #3 were about training a skill to lvl IV, and even though #3 involved a Rank 3 skill, it came out as a much shorter "earn back" period simply because the point of comparison was against lvl III in example #1 as opposed to lvl 0 in example #3. Going level by level and stopping each to to think "how much is the next level worth", example #3 could also be seen like this:

750 minutes to earn back lvl I
+3493 minutes to earn back lvl II
+19,757 minutes to earn back lvl III
+111,765 minutes to earn back lvl IV
Σ 135,765 minutes (94 days) — the same as the total SP value for that level.

Unsurprisingly, since this is a Rank 3 skill, this is just a bit more than 3× the earn-back time for the Rank 1 skill in example #1.

Tau Cabalander
Posted - 2009.05.06 22:10:00 - [13]
 

Edited by: Tau Cabalander on 06/05/2009 22:12:26
<deleted as it appears to be redundant>

Ta'jek
Angels Of Death EVE
Free Worlds Alliance
Posted - 2009.05.08 12:45:00 - [14]
 

do them to 4/4 as others more exp. then I am suggested.. if really want to get them to 5 then save the longer training times for when you know you won't be on for that length of time.... vacation, finals etc....
in my case for my job when things get going can be gone on assignment for 2 weeks to a month or longer.... one of the things I like about this game
can actually be "gaining" in the game while out on the lines...

Fille Balle
Ballbreakers R us
Posted - 2009.05.09 08:45:00 - [15]
 

Ok, I don't usually get involved in thesse discussions, but I will this time.

If you plan to play for MORE than one year (not in total, but from now on), training the basics to lvl5 pays off. But they only start to pay off after one yers from when they finish.

If you plan to play for MORE than three years, training the advanced ones to lvl5 pays off, but again, they only start to pay off after three years. So I guess after about 4-5 years you have gained enough to justify doing so.

I've trained all my learning skills to lvl5 (apart from the advanced charisma one), but I did it so that I can train what I want when I want to, and I'll have that slight edge. It doesn't make a big difference, and training all those learning skills is a real PAIN, so I don't recommend it for anyone.

Hope this helps.

Lukriss
Caldari
Notorious Legion
Tactical Narcotics Team
Posted - 2009.05.09 11:23:00 - [16]
 

Originally by: Fille Balle
Ok, I don't usually get involved in thesse discussions, but I will this time.

If you plan to play for MORE than one year (not in total, but from now on), training the basics to lvl5 pays off. But they only start to pay off after one yers from when they finish.

If you plan to play for MORE than three years, training the advanced ones to lvl5 pays off, but again, they only start to pay off after three years. So I guess after about 4-5 years you have gained enough to justify doing so.

I've trained all my learning skills to lvl5 (apart from the advanced charisma one), but I did it so that I can train what I want when I want to, and I'll have that slight edge. It doesn't make a big difference, and training all those learning skills is a real PAIN, so I don't recommend it for anyone.

Hope this helps.


Remember, those are the MINIMUM times It'll take assuming a 100% even skill training over all attributes, i don't think there's even enough skills to "earn back" presence.

Pottsey
Enheduanni Foundation
Posted - 2009.05.09 13:30:00 - [17]
 

Fille Balle said "If you plan to play for MORE than three years, training the advanced ones to lvl5 pays off, but again, they only start to pay off after three years. So I guess after about 4-5 years you have gained enough to justify doing so."
As per normal in these threads I don't agree. By three years I gained months of skill I would not have with adv4. So it did not take 4-5 year to justify training those skills.

Payoff by its self is a bad way to work out if learning skills are worth getting. There are lots of situations where you end up better off with adv5 yet payoff says your worse off.

Estel Arador
Posted - 2009.05.09 14:32:00 - [18]
 

Originally by: Pottsey
There are lots of a select few situations where you might end up temporarily be better off with adv5 yet payoff says you're worse off not yet better off.


Fixed that for you.

Pottsey
Enheduanni Foundation
Posted - 2009.05.09 14:39:00 - [19]
 

Edited by: Pottsey on 09/05/2009 14:40:46
You didn't fix that correctly. As it's not always temporarily. I also don't agree with select few situations. In my experience most players who play longer than one year end up better with adv5, not all though.

EDIT:
The players who end up better with adv4 are the ones with static never changeing skill plans and those are the rare ones.

Akita T
Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force
Posted - 2009.05.09 14:39:00 - [20]
 

Edited by: Akita T on 09/05/2009 14:40:12

What Pottsey is trying to say but has trouble conveying is that for a person that pretty much already maxed-out all skills he CARES to max-out and is only training things he probably wouldn't train if he had any alternatives, the moment any new useful skill appears, the maxed-out learnings "instantly" pay off from his viewpoint.

Granted, the pool of people this viewpoint can possibly apply to is quite small, but nevertheless, it's a valid viewpoint Twisted Evil

Pottsey
Enheduanni Foundation
Posted - 2009.05.09 14:45:00 - [21]
 

Edited by: Pottsey on 09/05/2009 14:46:18
Akita T that's only half the story. Those that change skill plans unexpectedly also benefit from adv5. For example your corp did an unplanned move to 0.0 and you move from PvE to PvP. Or CCP do a balance change so you change your skill plan. Or new skills come out, or many other situations that make you change skill plans.

How many people changed their skill plans to get missiles and fly Stealth Bombers with the recent balance change? How many stoped the old plan to train Cruise missile skills and changed to torps due to the change? Its stuff like that which makes adv5 more than worthwhile.

Ms Delerium
Posted - 2009.05.09 17:41:00 - [22]
 

I trained them all to lvl5 and I say its not worth.

I created a 2nd and 3rd accounts, now I realize how stupid was spending months training that ****.

With these alts im heading to useful things (Hulk, Raven...) and its like... LOL, im almost overtaking my main, which is 4 months older, in some aspects.

Seriously, enjoy the game and the useful skills, who cares about having 40M SP or 50M SP after some years, you are a pro anyways. There are not too much useful skills to train after some point, only ships and ships and ships... You can use alts for that.

Bladen Kerst
Caldari
Aperture Harmonics
K162
Posted - 2009.05.09 20:33:00 - [23]
 

It is just another form of an age old argument:

Initiative vs long term benefit

If you spend lot of real time playing eve you will do great even with basic at 4 and advanced at 3.
If you don't play a lot than long term benefit is more appealing. In this case your most important decision is not whether or not to train advanced to lvl 5, but how many extra accounts you should create.

getting fourth account would increase skill points you are gaining by roughly 33%, while training advanced to lvl 5 by aproximately 5% or something like that

Andrymeda
Posted - 2009.05.10 14:15:00 - [24]
 

Originally by: Sophie Joscelyne
Ive nearly hit my short term goals, and was woundering should i take time out of my goals to get all of learing skills to 5?

The basic learnig skills are all 4 with learning V and the T2 learning skills are 4? should i get them to 5?

Im an industrial charcter :D


Any time spent training other skills with learning skills to train is a waste (beyond the point of having your character do something useful). Some look at only the time to "reinvest", which is a major mistake. Once you start taking on implants (and you will), having all learning skills trained to 5 will really start paying off.

Bladen Kerst
Caldari
Aperture Harmonics
K162
Posted - 2009.05.10 18:34:00 - [25]
 

Edited by: Bladen Kerst on 10/05/2009 18:45:34
wrong, implants decrease the usefulness of learning skills.

If you have primary attribute at 29 and secondary at 23 training advanced to 5 gives you less than 4% in training speed increase. Without implants it would be around 4.5%.

While getting second account increases skill point gain by 100% without neccesity to spend 2 months training some ******ed learning skills to lvl 5 and then wait for 3 years waiting for them to pay off.

Gaius Sejanus
Gallente
Federal Navy Academy
Posted - 2009.05.11 05:27:00 - [26]
 

Quote:
wrong, implants decrease the usefulness of learning skills.


You'd have to try very very hard to be more wrong.

Implants have no effect on the usefulness of learning skills.

Implants go away when you get podded. Learning skills don't (presuming you keep your clone up to date).

Learning skills don't take up valuable headspace...high end stat implants preclude the use of high performance faction implants (Slaves, Crystal, Halo, Snake).

There are no diminishing returns on attributes.

While it is true that each point of an attribute from ANY source gives less of a percentage increase than the one before...so what? It's more skill gain. Every across-the-board stat increase (with learning 5) gives an extra 1.65 skillpoints per minute. Period. The percentage increase would have great difficulty being less important.

Pottsey
Enheduanni Foundation
Posted - 2009.05.11 09:58:00 - [27]
 

Bladen Kerst said “While getting second account increases skill point gain by 100% without neccesity to spend 2 months training some ******ed learning skills to lvl 5 and then wait for 3 years waiting for them to pay off.”
You might get 100% skill point gain but you also need 100% more core skillpoints and some none core skill points with a 2nd account. Instead of spending 2 months getting learning skills you will spend over 2 months getting the core and support skills you already have on your other account.

As I have proven in the past it does not always take 3 years to benefit from learning skills to lvl 5.

Ms Delerium
Posted - 2009.05.11 10:08:00 - [28]
 

Edited by: Ms Delerium on 11/05/2009 10:11:00
Originally by: Bladen Kerst
It is just another form of an age old argument:

Initiative vs long term benefit

If you spend lot of real time playing eve you will do great even with basic at 4 and advanced at 3.
If you don't play a lot than long term benefit is more appealing. In this case your most important decision is not whether or not to train advanced to lvl 5, but how many extra accounts you should create.

getting fourth account would increase skill points you are gaining by roughly 33%, while training advanced to lvl 5 by aproximately 5% or something like that


great point sir.

alts are the way. they cost money though Laughing


Originally by: Pottsey
You might get 100% skill point gain but you also need 100% more core skillpoints and some none core skill points with a 2nd account. Instead of spending 2 months getting learning skills you will spend over 2 months getting the core and support skills you already have on your other account.

As I have proven in the past it does not always take 3 years to benefit from learning skills to lvl 5.



you kidding? first, a 2nd or 3rd accoutn are very useful. Then, we not talking about stay with no learn skills, but 4/3 maybe. That will take half the time (or even less) than 5/5 while only losing 3 attribute points. Seriously who cares if you have 27 or 30 points, in the end its a 10% benefit/loss.

while the fun/useful factor says logically you want useful skills rather than learn skills which are boring to train.

Pottsey
Enheduanni Foundation
Posted - 2009.05.11 12:17:00 - [29]
 

Ms Delerium said “you kidding? first, a 2nd or 3rd accoutn are very useful.”
No I am not kidding and a 2nd or 3rd account being very useful has very little to do with what I said. A second account does not give you 100% more useful new skill points. A fourth account does not give you 33% more useful new skill points.

For example if I want to use large projectiles I train 3 skills. If I get a new second account I need to train something like 40+ skills all but 3 of which my first account has. Sure I get 100% more skillpoints with a 2nd account but I have to retrain a lot of core and support skills so I don’t end up with 100% more new skills.


Ms Delerium said “while the fun/useful factor says logically you want useful skills rather than learn skills which are boring to train.”
The learning skills sometimes give you more fun/useful skills then if you didn’t have learning skills.

Bladen Kerst
Caldari
Aperture Harmonics
K162
Posted - 2009.05.11 12:30:00 - [30]
 

So what if you need to train several rank 1-3 skills on every account, at least they give real benefit. As far as I am concerned 3 remote repping dominixes with sentry drones would have absolutely the same skills, but focus fire from all the t2 sentries could scare off even a small roaming gang.


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