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Whitehound
The Whitehound Corporation
Frontline Assembly Point
Posted - 2009.05.07 13:36:00 - [151]
 

Originally by: Tvaishk Suzuki
You put time in that's the balance.

Time is probably the most important part of eve, as everyone else in this tread has been saying patience and planing is the key.

And you will continue to have the time to put into EVE.

You are only wishing you had patience. The truth is that the games tries your patience. You talk about it, but if you had the patience then you would not even be in this thread and fighting my suggestion for instance. You would know that this thread will run its course eventually and not be worried about it. So, where is your patience?

I do have patience and I have patience with you, too. Wink Only do I not have time to play EVE for 20-25 years. And neither do most of the players, nor will you have this time. You know it - I know it.

Now, please, spare me the false time argument.

His DarkShadow
Posted - 2009.05.07 13:40:00 - [152]
 

Originally by: Whitehound
Originally by: Tvaishk Suzuki
You put time in that's the balance.

Time is probably the most important part of eve, as everyone else in this tread has been saying patience and planing is the key.

And you will continue to have the time to put into EVE.

You are only wishing you had patience. The truth is that the games tries your patience. You talk about it, but if you had the patience then you would not even be in this thread and fighting my suggestion for instance. You would know that this thread will run its course eventually and not be worried about it. So, where is your patience?

I do have patience and I have patience with you, too. Wink Only do I not have time to play EVE for 20-25 years. And neither do most of the players, nor will you have this time. You know it - I know it.

Now, please, spare me the false time argument.


Somehow your philosophy looks very wrong, but i think you should be the one to understand it... Eventually Wink

kushkan
Amarr
Evil Dead L.L.C.
Posted - 2009.05.07 13:45:00 - [153]
 

time = skills
time = is understanding of the game

those 2 make a perfect mixure
my overall image about people that buy tings whit real mony is that the ovalcompleetly fail in the game whitch in turn destroys part of the fun of it ( not sure makes a lot more fun in pvp )

also whitehound have you ever tought of players that played this game for year earned there isk the hard way learned the hard way, and now beingh fleetet up whit some 1 month year old punk flying a ship whit maby even better skills. i dont know how you tink i would fell prety mutch ripped off.

ripped of ppl tend to stop paying for tings now new players taht spend real mony to but them selfs into big bad ass ships the have no clue of flying (as that will happen) will losse it couse the dont know how the bloody ting is supose to work we alrdy see the hapening a lot couse of isk buyyers (i can bet you will see carier pilots tryign to jump trough stargates), it will all come to one colosal failure. And ccp will lose a lot of members making it not economical for them to put this option in eve.

now i havent covert up that older players can get a second acount and buy the skills for that thus gettign 2 realy strong chars in a fast amounth of time and know how to controll them.
it still isent right that you discrimnate persons that dont want to pay 1000$ for somting wat still is to this day a game.

its prety mutch commen sence


i pay for this game, i dont pay for the uber fancy ships, i pay couse i like the game it self, i pay so ccp can maintane it, i pay them to denvelop and keeping me entertained, i do not pay real mony to get to omzor fancy pixelzor ship lots of ppl seem to forget that this is a game.



my apologies if this is a text wall and there probly are a lot of typos in it dident had the time to check that all ;)

regards and fly save kush

Trimutius III
Avalon Guards
Gypsy Band
Posted - 2009.05.07 13:50:00 - [154]
 

Originally by: Whitehound

It may seem unfair but it is not. It is fair, because you have to pay extra money for it, and if you do not pay then nothing will change for you. You do not want others to train faster than you when you get the same chance as them.


It's still unfair... I will open ur eyes, billionaires do exist, millionaires also do exist. And they and their children may play the game, so it's unfair if ur RL is affecting game so hardly. Skills is only one thing that depends only on u gaming and could not be buyed. And u want to spoil even this. So that rich people will get whatever they want?

Quote:

Players, who buy time cards and have more ISK than you, can afford to buy the most expensive implants and are already training faster!


Don't make me laugh. I can easily afford +4 implants (even for PVP clone, +4 implants are really cheap for me i can earn that much ISK for 1-2 days of carebearing) And the best possible are +5, and u know they give only 1.1 attributes (considering u have Learning leve 5) 1.1 isn't that much to bother. in average my char have attributes of (8+5+4+4)*1.1 = 23.1 and their char have 24.2 so their learning is only 5% faster.
Also many carebears could afford buying PLEX to extend their account and at the same time +5 implants because they earning much more ISK per month then needed for buying PLEX and +5 implants, they could even afford Golem/Navy Ravens with Navy fit and even could afford losing such a ship sometimes.

Quote:

Faster learning then does not matter when it takes 20-25 years for all skills to max. It is why people are playing with 2 or 3 accounts and specialize each character to get as much as possible from EVE. Besides, it is not getting less skills, instead we are now able to lose skills with the T3s, placing an "open end" to those 20-25 years.

Open end always existed, because every year CCP makes skill for 2 years of training more. So it's theoretically impossible to train all skills.
And though 20-25 years needed to get all ships, it doesn't matter. Nobody needs all skills. Even good Titan pilot is only 2 years of training. Any other ship could be trained even faster.

And when u have many accounts that doesn't give u that advantage, because for every char u need to train same basic skills... So it doesn't speed up ur training. Because no matter what every char need Learnings, Engineering skills, Electronics skills, Mechanic skills, Some common skills in Spaceship Command (not all skills there are racial), same support skills in Gunnery and/or Missiles, same skills for drones, same social skills if u agentrunning. So it's not that easy...

His DarkShadow
Posted - 2009.05.07 13:53:00 - [155]
 

Originally by: kushkan
time = skills
time = is understanding of the game

those 2 make a perfect mixure
my overall image about people that buy tings whit real mony is that the ovalcompleetly fail in the game whitch in turn destroys part of the fun of it ( not sure makes a lot more fun in pvp )

also whitehound have you ever tought of players that played this game for year earned there isk the hard way learned the hard way, and now beingh fleetet up whit some 1 month year old punk flying a ship whit maby even better skills. i dont know how you tink i would fell prety mutch ripped off.

ripped of ppl tend to stop paying for tings now new players taht spend real mony to but them selfs into big bad ass ships the have no clue of flying (as that will happen) will losse it couse the dont know how the bloody ting is supose to work we alrdy see the hapening a lot couse of isk buyyers (i can bet you will see carier pilots tryign to jump trough stargates), it will all come to one colosal failure. And ccp will lose a lot of members making it not economical for them to put this option in eve.

now i havent covert up that older players can get a second acount and buy the skills for that thus gettign 2 realy strong chars in a fast amounth of time and know how to controll them.
it still isent right that you discrimnate persons that dont want to pay 1000$ for somting wat still is to this day a game.

its prety mutch commen sence


i pay for this game, i dont pay for the uber fancy ships, i pay couse i like the game it self, i pay so ccp can maintane it, i pay them to denvelop and keeping me entertained, i do not pay real mony to get to omzor fancy pixelzor ship lots of ppl seem to forget that this is a game.



my apologies if this is a text wall and there probly are a lot of typos in it dident had the time to check that all ;)

regards and fly save kush


Very well said, Amen to that.

Santiago Fahahrri
Gallente
Galactic Geographic
Posted - 2009.05.07 14:08:00 - [156]
 

This thread doesn't deserve this many pages. Let it go - he's not going to be convinced.

Securityalt1
Posted - 2009.05.07 14:13:00 - [157]
 

Edited by: Securityalt1 on 07/05/2009 14:13:39
MY GOD! If skills don't make so much difference, then where's the problem? If skills make so little difference, then surely it wouldn't make any difference if somebody paid CCP to get some more skills?

Sounds like a bit of a contradiction to meRolling Eyes

Raekek
Posted - 2009.05.07 14:13:00 - [158]
 

Edited by: Raekek on 07/05/2009 14:19:39
Originally by: Santiago Fahahrri
This thread doesn't deserve this many pages. Let it go - he's not going to be convinced.


Yeah seriously. He could keep this argument going on forever. DON'T FEED THE TROLL! Rolling Eyes

Whitehound
The Whitehound Corporation
Frontline Assembly Point
Posted - 2009.05.07 14:15:00 - [159]
 

Originally by: kushkan
also whitehound have you ever tought of players that played this game for year earned there isk the hard way learned the hard way, and now beingh fleetet up whit some 1 month year old punk flying a ship whit maby even better skills. i dont know how you tink i would fell prety mutch ripped off.

Nonsense. All their hard earned ISK can be had by trading time cards with them. If those who earned their ISK the hard way would bother about it as much as you do then they would not be giving it away.

Besides, old players are not denied the option to buy skills. They probably just have lot of them already, which is somewhat denying them the option. Laughing

You better just speak for yourself and say what you really want.

Whitehound
The Whitehound Corporation
Frontline Assembly Point
Posted - 2009.05.07 14:19:00 - [160]
 

Edited by: Whitehound on 07/05/2009 14:26:23
Originally by: Trimutius III
It may seem unfair but it is not. It is fair, because you have to pay extra money for it, and if you do not pay then nothing will change for you. You do not want others to train faster than you when you get the same chance as them.

My eyes are open. You do not need to open them for me ... All you are saying is that you do not want rich kids to play the game as they might use their skills against you. My response is: Welcome to EVE!

Seriously, I have already pointed out several times that I do not want it to be unlimited. If you want me to keep reading your comments then you better start to respect previous arguments or else you will be going in circles, and I will not be joining you in the spin.

Whitehound
The Whitehound Corporation
Frontline Assembly Point
Posted - 2009.05.07 14:24:00 - [161]
 

Originally by: Securityalt1
MY GOD! If skills don't make so much difference, then where's the problem? If skills make so little difference, then surely it wouldn't make any difference if somebody paid CCP to get some more skills?

Sounds like a bit of a contradiction to meRolling Eyes

No, it is not a contradiction. EVE does get boring after some time, and no matter how many skills you have or not have will not change this fact. Being able to spend some money on more skills will however extend the experience with EVE. In return will CCP make more money before the average player leaves again.

His DarkShadow
Posted - 2009.05.07 14:27:00 - [162]
 

Originally by: Raekek
Originally by: Santiago Fahahrri
This thread doesn't deserve this many pages. Let it go - he's not going to be convinced.


Yeah seriously. He could keep this argument going on forever. Rolling Eyes

Well if He is not convinced, that is no problem at all, the important thing is, that ccp would not think as He do. Well realy this is stupid thread and deserves to be closed, becouse like one man said:

Quote:
I am paying to play this game and to support ccp so they could develop it further and make it more avesome, but i do not pay for skills... etc etc


So if you start selling skills/items which are not farmed or trained by anybody, but just generated, then it is not mmorpg which majority players here like, it becomes more like another ****y mmo with majority of kids who steal money from their parents and buy ingame items/skills so they can p0wn somebody in pvp.

And one more thing, i do not even understand ppl who think that buying in game stuff is good in any way. You spend real money for actually nothing, becouse items in game are not real. Game is a Game so play it like one and do not whine.

/closed

Whitehound
The Whitehound Corporation
Frontline Assembly Point
Posted - 2009.05.07 14:30:00 - [163]
 

Originally by: His DarkShadow
You spend real money for actually nothing, becouse items in game are not real. Game is a Game so play it like one and do not whine.

If you are so mature, then why do you still play games? Better stop the subscription, troll. It is real money you are paying there!

His DarkShadow
Posted - 2009.05.07 14:34:00 - [164]
 

Originally by: Whitehound
Originally by: His DarkShadow
You spend real money for actually nothing, becouse items in game are not real. Game is a Game so play it like one and do not whine.

If you are so mature, then why do you still play games? Better stop the subscription, troll. It is real money you are paying there!


I play becouse i like it, it does not have to do anything with being mature or not.

Trimutius III
Avalon Guards
Gypsy Band
Posted - 2009.05.07 14:41:00 - [165]
 

Originally by: Whitehound

And you will continue to have the time to put into EVE.

You are only wishing you had patience. The truth is that the games tries your patience. You talk about it, but if you had the patience then you would not even be in this thread and fighting my suggestion for instance. You would know that this thread will run its course eventually and not be worried about it. So, where is your patience?

I do have patience and I have patience with you, too. Wink Only do I not have time to play EVE for 20-25 years. And neither do most of the players, nor will you have this time. You know it - I know it.

Now, please, spare me the false time argument.


I see. U just want to try everything? That's impossible, u know i don't really play EVE, i something like live in EVE because it's looks like real life. Yes i having fun ingame, and the main reason for playing is having fun. But i don't need that stupid "everything" to have fun. Just like in real life u're limited in what u can and what u cannot. And u know, to try everything in EVE even whole life would be not enough, because CCP keep bringing new and new features, every feature need new skills and so on...

But to train one ship to Perfect u need LESS then 1 year. any ships, besides maybe T2 Battleships and Capitals. they need from 1 year to 2 years, if u don't coun titans, titan needs 2-3 years.

But if u trained 1 ship to perfect, second ship will take much less. But nobody trains ships to perfect, they train ships to good. And u know like it said "The best is the enemy of good". U of course can train for example Command Ship to Perfect and it will take u something like 10-12 month or even a little more. (Counting that u train learnings first, i'm counting from a new char) But u can spend only 6-8 monthes to train good Command Ship that is only 5-10% worse then perfect (and this 5-10% doesn't matter) And after that switch to another ship. I'm not telling that during this 6-8 monthes u will get:
1) Good Cruiser
2) Good Battlecruiser
3) Good HAC and/or Logistic

So u trained for only 8 monthes and after that u can at least 9 ships good. (There is 2 possiblities: 2-4 Cruisers, 2 BC, 2 HAC, 1 Logistic and 2 CS OR 2-3 cruisers, 2 BC, 2 HAC 1 CS and at least 2 BS)

But u can choose another way, and each way gives u several ships at "good point" only during first year.
Of course several ships doesn't give u anything. But look at other games. There u have classes and if u have trained character of one class to perfect u just need to make a new one and waste ur time to do everything from zero point. Here everything is a little bit other way, as i said there is many skills that are needed for every ship, they also sometimes called support skills, and usually most of them are trained during first 2 years, almost every skill is trained during first year and some skills that u haven't trained yet could be trained during second year. And maybe a little bit skills would be left but this skills are usually specific and used on limited amount of ships. And u don't have to create new characters to try new ships. Same thing with industry and Scince, main skills could be learned during first year easily, and rest skills are just adding possibilities to manufacture something new.

U know 20-25 years is only a big number but nothing more. U don't need all that skills. U usually don't need industry skills and combat skills on same character for example. Or ability to fly all the existing ships on same character.
And if u saying that CCP need money, then why they should do this. Somebody will try everything on one char and for rest of his life will pay for 1 account, or it will buy several accounts to try different things and will pay for long time for 2-4 accounts. I think second thing is more money efficient, though they will not get that money in near future but they will get there piece from year to year and so on.

Whitehound
The Whitehound Corporation
Frontline Assembly Point
Posted - 2009.05.07 15:02:00 - [166]
 

Edited by: Whitehound on 07/05/2009 15:03:26
Originally by: Trimutius III
U know 20-25 years is only a big number but nothing more. U don't need all that skills.

That means you would not mind if I bought me some skills and hence you agree with the idea. You are just too afraid to say it.

Quote:
And if u saying that CCP need money, then why they should do this.

I did not say that CCP needs money! I believe we can all agree on money being a necessity for all of us. It sure is not something only CCP needs (...). There is no harm in making money, but it is just good business. Cool

Btw, I am not rich and I would not spend as much money as possible on buying skills. So I would see some other players moving past me with their skill sets, because of my idea. Now, why am I not worried?

Securityalt1
Posted - 2009.05.07 15:47:00 - [167]
 

Edited by: Securityalt1 on 07/05/2009 15:49:28
Originally by: Whitehound
Originally by: Securityalt1
MY GOD! If skills don't make so much difference, then where's the problem? If skills make so little difference, then surely it wouldn't make any difference if somebody paid CCP to get some more skills?

Sounds like a bit of a contradiction to meRolling Eyes

No, it is not a contradiction. EVE does get boring after some time, and no matter how many skills you have or not have will not change this fact. Being able to spend some money on more skills will however extend the experience with EVE. In return will CCP make more money before the average player leaves again.


I don't think you quite understand what I'm saying. People are saying that skills don't make you uber. Then they are saying that it would be unbalanced if you where allowed to buy skills. Can you spot the contradiction? I can.

I'm not against allowing the purchase of skills, but I think it should be limited to skills which are almost mandatory for any career, like engineering is for combat pilots, and mining is for a miner. I wouldn't pay any money for skills myself, and I know a lot of people wouldn't. It wouldn't be game breaking. At least not any more game breaking than buying a trillion isk via plex.

To all you people that say you can't buy power for isk: have a look at dotlan. Look up "Red Overlord" alliance. That's what isk can buy you in this game. Skills can't buy you that. RL leadership skills might get you close, but not quite. Isk is power. Isk can buy people, and: people > skills

Trimutius III
Avalon Guards
Gypsy Band
Posted - 2009.05.07 15:54:00 - [168]
 

Originally by: Whitehound
Edited by: Whitehound on 07/05/2009 15:03:26
Originally by: Trimutius III
U know 20-25 years is only a big number but nothing more. U don't need all that skills.

That means you would not mind if I bought me some skills and hence you agree with the idea. You are just too afraid to say it.


NO. It means that u will be able without spending 1-2 years like other get ur skills. And this is unfair to everybody who played before.


Quote:
Btw, I am not rich and I would not spend as much money as possible on buying skills. So I would see some other players moving past me with their skill sets, because of my idea. Now, why am I not worried?

Because u haven't spent that 2-5 years to train u character just to see that one newbie with a big wallet have same amount of SP as u without any effort... This change will bring in game that lamers that actually ruin the game, maybe this lamers will not succeed in ruining the game like they succeeded to ruin WOW for example (or yes i know that WOW still exist, but it money making machine and not interesting game at all, when anybody can pay money get char with best skills and items play a little and then resell this char), so i think CCP shouldn't even try doing something stupid like this, because in EVE there is only 300k subscribers, but this subscribers but the most of this subscribers are real players who have come to make some fun a long-term fun, and skill buying system will just kill that "long-term" and EVE will become something like "i came here to play a few monthes and then got bored" like any other MMO. If anybody will be able to get skills for money then game soon will become boring. It's like playing with cheats and without cheats, if u play without cheats u are intersted in game from beginning to the end and the game may last for quite a long time, and if u r playing with cheats u just try this and that and that, then u got bored and go away. In EVE u r always solving a problem, and "Not enough skills" or "Too many primary skills and don't know which to learn first" is one of the most interesting parts of the game... Which keep u interested, like a cliff-hanger in soap-operas but much more interesting and much better. :)

Whitehound
The Whitehound Corporation
Frontline Assembly Point
Posted - 2009.05.07 16:30:00 - [169]
 

Edited by: Whitehound on 07/05/2009 16:31:25
Originally by: Trimutius III
NO. It means that u will be able without spending 1-2 years like other get ur skills. And this is unfair to everybody who played before.

Why is it unfair when you do not need all those skills, as you say? If the time you invested into EVE was not fun for you, but you see your skills as a reward for the time, then all it means is that you should have stopped playing some time ago!

I pay my subscription fee and in return do I get skills. The fun takes places regardless of how much I have paid and for how long I have been playing. You have a problem with this, but I do not not. Why?

ShadowDraqon
The Quantum Company
Independent Faction
Posted - 2009.05.07 17:11:00 - [170]
 

I object to this thread. It's just trolls and flames. ugh

Hariya
Posted - 2009.05.07 17:49:00 - [171]
 

CCP sanctioned, limited skill purchasing would put an end to character farming. Plus, good income without destroying the game. What does it really matter to you if someone for instance spent 15 euros to buy one of his longer level 5 skills? The difference to his performance in the game is diminishing.

Lear Hepburn
Caldari
Ascendant Strategies Inc.
The Transcendent
Posted - 2009.05.07 17:51:00 - [172]
 

Originally by: Whitehound
Originally by: Lear Hepburn
What limits would you place on the purchasing of skills apart from price?

Which ones would you like to see? ... My first idea was to limit it by the skills' prerequisites, but that does not help always and may make some skills too easy to acquire and place other skills out of reach.

Because I want it to be usable in combination with the time-based mechanism should one be allowed to buy a new skill only so often. You could not get into a Titan any time soon, but only speed up your current progress. It would be difficult to exploit it and not without spending time as well as money. What do you think?


This response has proved to me beyond doubt that Whitehound is now merely trolling. Cherrypicking one sentence and one point from a post with several paragraphs and about three different objections to the concept is not promoting discussion. He does not want a discussion, he merely wants to pick out any points which he perceives as supporting the idea while ignoring those which are detrimental to it, of which there are many. I hereby bow out of this "thread" and suggest anyone who wishes to have an acual discouse does the same. Enjoy.

Whitehound
The Whitehound Corporation
Frontline Assembly Point
Posted - 2009.05.07 18:29:00 - [173]
 

Edited by: Whitehound on 07/05/2009 19:35:20
Originally by: Hariya
CCP sanctioned, limited skill purchasing would put an end to character farming. Plus, good income without destroying the game. What does it really matter to you if someone for instance spent 15 euros to buy one of his longer level 5 skills? The difference to his performance in the game is diminishing.

Where did you get that from?
...
Never mind. Tell CCP that I want 50% of the profit! 95% in cash and 5% in skills. YARRRR!!

Trimutius III
Avalon Guards
Gypsy Band
Posted - 2009.05.07 19:27:00 - [174]
 

Originally by: Whitehound
Edited by: Whitehound on 07/05/2009 16:31:25
Originally by: Trimutius III
NO. It means that u will be able without spending 1-2 years like other get ur skills. And this is unfair to everybody who played before.

Why is it unfair when you do not need all those skills, as you say? If the time you invested into EVE was not fun for you, but you see your skills as a reward for the time, then all it means is that you should have stopped playing some time ago!

I pay my subscription fee and in return do I get skills. The fun takes places regardless of how much I have paid and for how long I have been playing. You have a problem with this, but I do not not. Why?

Not so fast. First of all i didn't said that u don't need the skills, i said that u don't need all the skills in the game, u really need only those skills that could be trained during first 2-3 years and after that skill training is just like an addition to gameplay, u don't really need further training, u just train because u will become a little bit better. But i don't want anybody skip that first 2-3 years, they are really awesome and they sort out all the good players and if someone survived first year or two then he deserve to play EVE, it's survival of the fittest. Like that. EVE isn't for casuals.

It's unfair that i spent that 2 years on training my chars and somebody else could skip that really awesome experience... It's unfair to me and unfair to them, because u even can't understand yet what u're losing, play as long as me (2 years) then we'll talk...

Originally by: ShadowDraqon
I object to this thread. It's just trolls and flames. ugh

Don't forget about flood. Laughing

Whitehound
The Whitehound Corporation
Frontline Assembly Point
Posted - 2009.05.07 19:31:00 - [175]
 

Originally by: Trimutius III
... play as long as me (2 years) then we'll talk...

We already are talking. Very Happy

Trimutius III
Avalon Guards
Gypsy Band
Posted - 2009.05.07 19:37:00 - [176]
 

Originally by: Whitehound
Originally by: Trimutius III
... play as long as me (2 years) then we'll talk...

We already are talking. Very Happy

I don't know what u're doing, i'm like flooding...

And i mean that i want to know ur opinion after 1 year and 9 monthes, because 1 year and 9 monthes before i would agree with u, but not now, EVE changes people... Wink

Whitehound
The Whitehound Corporation
Frontline Assembly Point
Posted - 2009.05.07 20:31:00 - [177]
 

Originally by: Trimutius III
I don't know what u're doing, i'm like flooding...

I guess I am flirting with you and I should apologize ...


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