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Jan Ors
Caldari
Caldari Provisions
Posted - 2004.09.01 18:06:00 - [31]
 

I agree completely.

Nafri
Caldari
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Posted - 2004.09.01 18:21:00 - [32]
 

signed

Tolkh
Posted - 2004.09.01 18:37:00 - [33]
 

Something to consider though is that when you talk about specialisation you usually have a path that requires a sacrifice to reach the end. The idea being that not everyone will be willing to pay the price to specialise wich is the idea since it makes the people who did specialise, well "special" =) .

So the question is, if they don't do it this way, what way can they do it by retaining the notion of a big enough sacrifice that not everyone wants to do this ? If every BS pilot takes these skills then there is simply no specialisation.

Ardor
Bruderschaft des Wahrhaftigen
A.R.K.
Posted - 2004.09.01 18:39:00 - [34]
 

I disagree. I understand your arguments and I think they are somehow valid. But...

The big problem is a MMOG always needs new players. The new players dont want to play as cannonfodder for us vets. Surprise! If we make it too easy to gain specialization in large guns it would be 1.) not very specialized and 2.) the difference between newbies and vets will stay the same.

The goal of a fair skillsystem (fair for noobs) is give them a chance to catch up while vets always have a small advantage. This advange of vets will decrease over time in effectivness but will not decrease in number of reached skillpoints. As long as both (the new player and the vet) are always training their skills the new player will always come closer in effectivness to a vet but he will never be able to become equal if both train the same skills. This is fair for noobs and rewarding the vets.

The other options would be
1. make it too easy for vets to stay at the top which will be the death for Eve because no new player wants to join being cannonfodder forever.
2. skill cap for vets which I very much dislike.
3. a different and harder way for specialization. Example: you want to be specialized in large guns only. Ok, large blaster specialization is now a rank 16 skill.

I like it the way it is now. To be able to specialize in T2 medium blaster you must be able to handle T2 small blaster etc. I dont see a problem here.

Marcus Grisbius
Gallente
Mom 'n' Pop Ammo Shoppe
Posted - 2004.09.01 18:41:00 - [35]
 

I think people are kinda missing the direction of the specialization. It's not specialization in Turret Size but rather in Turret Type. You specialize in blasters or railguns or beams or pulses not large, medium or small. It allows you to specialize at your fighting STYLE not you ship. The ship is sort of just a platform to support your style. That way you can be a great blaster pilot and someone else can be a great rail pilot.

It makes sense that you would need to learn the lower level gun skills before you would be able to learn the higher level ones. So in that way it makes a lot more sense to be able to specialize in the type of turret rather than the size of turret.

Gariuys
Evil Strangers Inc.
Posted - 2004.09.01 18:43:00 - [36]
 

Two points from me.

1) Support cruisers the first of the elite cruisers don't need a elite frigate skill. Don't bet on others not requiring them.

2) You're specializing, not in a given turret such as large hybrid. You specialize in a given turret type, such as rails, autocannons, pulse lasers. Which follows the same linear progression the normal turrets do.

Joshua Calvert
Caldari
Rule One
Posted - 2004.09.01 18:55:00 - [37]
 

I want to specialize is large railguns.

Why am I forced to specialize in small and medium railguns?

It defeats the entire purpose of specialization when I'm forced to train skills I don't require.

And, please, what is with the idea that specialization should be difficult?

It should be a choice not a requirement.

Damajink
Caldari Provisions
Posted - 2004.09.01 19:19:00 - [38]
 

Specialisation

Joshua Calvert
Caldari
Rule One
Posted - 2004.09.01 19:23:00 - [39]
 

Originally by: Damajink
Specialisation




It can be spelled both ways.

DJTheBaron
Caldari
FinFleet
KenZoku
Posted - 2004.09.01 19:25:00 - [40]
 

Originally by: Joshua Calvert
I want to specialize is large railguns.

Why am I forced to specialize in small and medium railguns?

It defeats the entire purpose of specialization when I'm forced to train skills I don't require.

And, please, what is with the idea that specialization should be difficult?

It should be a choice not a requirement.


you need to train small to use medium, smal and medium to train large and its been that way for over a year, why does this suprise you and why are you complaining over diction

cashman
Gallente
Posted - 2004.09.01 19:35:00 - [41]
 

Originally by: DJTheBaron
Originally by: Joshua Calvert
I want to specialize is large railguns.

Why am I forced to specialize in small and medium railguns?

It defeats the entire purpose of specialization when I'm forced to train skills I don't require.

And, please, what is with the idea that specialization should be difficult?

It should be a choice not a requirement.


you need to train small to use medium, smal and medium to train large and its been that way for over a year, why does this suprise you and why are you complaining over diction
Dude, can't you read? Or didn't you even bother to read the rest of the thread?

*sigh*

Harry Voyager
Jolly Codgers
Posted - 2004.09.01 19:43:00 - [42]
 

Edited by: Harry Voyager on 01/09/2004 19:47:36
Edited by: Harry Voyager on 01/09/2004 19:47:17
What happens when CCP nerfs them, after people have had to invest 3.4 millions skillpoints, just to get them?

I just plugged the numbers, and I'd need around 3 million skillpoints (I have 4.5m total) just to use Mega Pulse IIs. Considering that they each take an aditional 250mw of power grid to run, and only offer a 3.6 damage modifier and a range improvement, they are not worth dedicating three months of my training time, just to get a weapon that will be nerfed into oblivion by the time I can actually use it.

Someone once said, "There is a difference between risk, and dousing oneself in deer blood, smacking a bear, and then saying, I'll just take what's coming my way."

Harry Voyager

Tamur
Minmatar
Republic Military School
Posted - 2004.09.01 19:51:00 - [43]
 

Just a thought here, but forget for 1 minute that the skills are called 'Specialization' skills. They are simply the required skills that enable you to use the new Tech II turrets.

They could be called 'Tech II Turret Skills' - so the feeling of being 'special' is not really a factor. When you wanted to use large turrets you had to train small ones, then medium ones to enable the use of large ones - ok its a bit of a broader scale as the Tech II turrets are already clasified as 'small, medium and large' but having to train the skills up in this way kinda builds up to the excitement of being able to use them no?

So having to train the Tech II turret skills in this way is simply keeping the manor in way turrets are trained the same, only I will agree that the pre-requisite skills are rather high!


cashman
Gallente
Posted - 2004.09.01 19:53:00 - [44]
 

Originally by: Harry Voyager
Edited by: Harry Voyager on 01/09/2004 19:47:36
Edited by: Harry Voyager on 01/09/2004 19:47:17
What happens when CCP nerfs them, after people have had to invest 3.4 millions skillpoints, just to get them?

I just plugged the numbers, and I'd need around 3 million skillpoints (I have 4.5m total) just to use Mega Pulse IIs. Considering that they each take an aditional 250mw of power grid to run, and only offer a 3.6 damage modifier and a range improvement, they are not worth dedicating three months of my training time, just to get a weapon that will be nerfed into oblivion by the time I can actually use it.

Someone once said, "There is a difference between risk, and dousing oneself in deer blood, smacking a bear, and then saying, I'll just take what's coming my way."

Harry Voyager
Thats why they need to change this now. Before people waste too much training in this.

Safronique
Gallente
Posted - 2004.09.01 19:59:00 - [45]
 

could someone explain too me please, but say you have a large projectile II fitted to your Tempest...

How does the damage modifier work out?

is it Base of gun, i.e. 6 with 5% increase per level of BS you have, plus 5% per level of large turret you have, plus any level of surgical strike you may have then plus 2% for the specialization skill?

so e.g. if I had the following:
Minmatar BS 5
Large Turret 5
Surgical Strike 5
Specialization 5

the dmg of a tech II 1400 would be someting like this: approx 11.9 ?? (my maths is total poo BTW so its probably way out lol)


Athule Snanm
Amarr
Rien Ici
Posted - 2004.09.01 20:05:00 - [46]
 

I agree. I wouldn't want to see the skill times being cut, but it would be better if someone good at large guns didn't automatically have all the skills to be great at small and medium guns already when it comes to the specialisations. Instead of needing the previous gun skill at level 5, I'd have 3 new skills for, say, better tracking - small sharpshooter specialist, medium sharpshooter, etc. Then make those the pre-reqs for the damage specialisations.

Harry Voyager
Jolly Codgers
Posted - 2004.09.01 20:21:00 - [47]
 

Originally by: Safronique
could someone explain too me please, but say you have a large projectile II fitted to your Tempest...

How does the damage modifier work out?

is it Base of gun, i.e. 6 with 5% increase per level of BS you have, plus 5% per level of large turret you have, plus any level of surgical strike you may have then plus 2% for the specialization skill?

so e.g. if I had the following:
Minmatar BS 5
Large Turret 5
Surgical Strike 5
Specialization 5

the dmg of a tech II 1400 would be someting like this: approx 11.9 ?? (my maths is total poo BTW so its probably way out lol)




Remember, there are people who have those skills, aside from Spec 5, who are now switching to lasers, as Projectiles are now so useless.

That is what I am talking about. When the nerf hammer comes down, it doesn't matter how good a Tech II item is on paper, it will be rendered useless, and all skill points invested in that skill will be wasted.

Harry Voyager

Jocca Quinn
Matari BackBone
Fate Weavers
Posted - 2004.09.01 22:05:00 - [48]
 

Originally by: Joshua Calvert
Small Weapon specialization should require the following skills:

Small Hybrid or Projectile or Laser Level 5.
Gunnery 3
Sharpshooter 3 for the long-range specialization/Motion Prediction 3 for short-range specialization

Medium Weapon Specialization should require the following skills:

Medium Hybrid or Projectile or Laser Level 5
Gunnery 4
Sharpshooter 4 for the long-range specialization/Motion Prediction 4 for the short-range specialization

Large Weapon Specialization should require the following skills:

Large Hybrid or Projectile or Laser Level 5
Gunnery 5
Sharpshooter 5 for long-range secialization/Motion Prediction 5 for the short-range specialization

Something along those lines seems more suited to REAL specialization.

If that leaves too little training time, then up the rank of the specialization skill.


I cannot agree more. THIS is specialisation, not the "get the small then the medium then the large" that exists at this moment.

JQ

Blacklight
Reikoku
IT Alliance
Posted - 2004.09.01 22:36:00 - [49]
 

Agreed.

It doesn't make sense the way it is and does penalise people for flying larger ships.

Another step in the "let's get everyone into frigates" campaign.


Speknek
Minmatar
Posted - 2004.09.01 22:43:00 - [50]
 

Agreed

Current requirements would be fine if the BS was still the uber ship.
This is not specialisation but another tree of required skills. Should be changed.

I would change the requirements to:

Small Weapon specialization should require the following skills:
Small Hybrid or Projectile or Laser Level 5.
Gunnery 5
Sharpshooter 5 for the long-range specialization/Motion Prediction 5 for short-range specialization

Medium Weapon Specialization should require the following skills:
Medium Hybrid or Projectile or Laser Level 5
Gunnery 5
Sharpshooter 5 for the long-range specialization/Motion Prediction 5 for the short-range specialization

Large Weapon Specialization should require the following skills:
Large Hybrid or Projectile or Laser Level 5
Gunnery 5
Sharpshooter 5 for long-range secialization/Motion Prediction 5 for the short-range specialization

There's no reason to have less requirements for small guns vs large guns. Its specialisation in one gun type and size, should have the same requirements. Elite frigates aren't cheap frigs, but very powerfull and usefull ships that require (player) skill to fly, so i dont see a reason to lower the skill requirements for them, only because the guns are smaller.

KIAPieman
Caldari
Caldari Provisions
Posted - 2004.09.01 22:52:00 - [51]
 

Signed

MOOstradamus
Posted - 2004.09.01 23:39:00 - [52]
 

/me agrees with Gariuys & DJTheBaron Please visit your user settings to re-enable images.


JC: Haven't you quit yet Question (and by quit I of course mean EVE and not whining)

Selim
Akh'Vehlr Industries
Posted - 2004.09.01 23:40:00 - [53]
 

Originally by: Speknek
Agreed

Current requirements would be fine if the BS was still the uber ship.
This is not specialisation but another tree of required skills. Should be changed.

I would change the requirements to:

Small Weapon specialization should require the following skills:
Small Hybrid or Projectile or Laser Level 5.
Gunnery 5
Sharpshooter 5 for the long-range specialization/Motion Prediction 5 for short-range specialization

Medium Weapon Specialization should require the following skills:
Medium Hybrid or Projectile or Laser Level 5
Gunnery 5
Sharpshooter 5 for the long-range specialization/Motion Prediction 5 for the short-range specialization

Large Weapon Specialization should require the following skills:
Large Hybrid or Projectile or Laser Level 5
Gunnery 5
Sharpshooter 5 for long-range secialization/Motion Prediction 5 for the short-range specialization

There's no reason to have less requirements for small guns vs large guns. Its specialisation in one gun type and size, should have the same requirements. Elite frigates aren't cheap frigs, but very powerfull and usefull ships that require (player) skill to fly, so i dont see a reason to lower the skill requirements for them, only because the guns are smaller.

Claire Scott
Minmatar
Brutor Tribe
Posted - 2004.09.01 23:42:00 - [54]
 

Totally disagree. You're a nub.

-E

Procion
Gallente
Aliastra
Posted - 2004.09.02 00:01:00 - [55]
 

i bet tech 2 missile launchers have another ******ed skill training set as pre req's aswell, probably another 90 days.
its either turrets ,missiles or tech 2 ships which will you specialize in Laughing

The Enslaver
Viziam
Posted - 2004.09.02 00:27:00 - [56]
 

I agree that you shouldn't have to train up in small or medium to a high level, at least not as high as this, to train large weapon specialization.

However, the skill requirements *should* be just as severe for the large turrets, but they should require other skills at level five than they do at current.

Amarr Agent
Gallente
Tok'Ra Inc
Posted - 2004.09.02 00:40:00 - [57]
 

Originally by: Nafri
signed


Nafri's sig is by far the worst waste of forum space yet. 99% crap 1% content.

Centauro
Posted - 2004.09.02 01:03:00 - [58]
 

I do not agree you don't need small/med turrets in order to train large. Sounds familiar? yes, prior , if you wanted to train large turret you have have to train small and medium to lvl 4 in order to train next one.


Plain and simple.


P.S.: I have small and large to lvl 5 and training medium to 5 too, wish they remove this, but they will not that's why I'm trianing medium.

Gripen
Posted - 2004.09.02 01:22:00 - [59]
 

Agreed

Inanna Sumer
GoonFleet
GoonSwarm
Posted - 2004.09.02 01:24:00 - [60]
 

cent, that's in there because there's a logical progression in training, ie you need to know the basics of how smaller weapons work, before progressing to their larger counterparts.

as this is a specialization skill we're talking here- why would i want to know all the little quirks and such associated with small blasters- when what i really want to know are all the quirks and tips of a large blaster weapon.

progression works fine for learning the basics, but specialisations should stand alone imo.


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