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blankseplocked Constant problem of pirates in empire
 
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Irn Bruce
Posted - 2009.04.20 01:27:00 - [31]
 

If an op full of hulks are all getting aggroed and killed by a gang of flippers, then that's purely because they don't understand the game mechanics. They're not broken, mining isn't supposed to be 100% risk free, it just gets more risky the more isk you try to make. Which is right and proper.

If the pirate gets popped and leaves, and you still have an aggro counter, go and dock. If he has friends who are flashy, don't shoot them. And absolutely, 100% do NOT steal from his can.

Desiree Cousteau
Posted - 2009.04.20 01:38:00 - [32]
 

So herein lies the problem, ccp should address the issue fully i think by the next patch.... im off to bed now :-)

NightF0x
Gallente
Intergalactic League of Terrorists
Posted - 2009.04.20 02:06:00 - [33]
 

Originally by: Desiree Cousteau
So herein lies the problem, ccp should address the issue fully i think by the next patch.... im off to bed now :-)


what issue? the game's working as intended

Robert Caldera
Posted - 2009.04.20 09:19:00 - [34]
 

Edited by: Robert Caldera on 20/04/2009 09:21:18
Originally by: Desiree Cousteau
i have read a few threads on pirates in empire, and the fact they have an unfair advantage.. The funny thing is Concord is supposed to protect the honest player from the average game grieffer


here you fail. Concord does not protect.

Just dont mine in trash cans, if you prefer jettison cans to secure cans you accept the risk related to it.

lXP
Posted - 2009.04.20 09:24:00 - [35]
 

more interesting is how to cook rice with beans without water... and ppl think its impossible...

Durzel
The Xenodus Initiative.
Posted - 2009.04.20 11:43:00 - [36]
 

Edited by: Durzel on 20/04/2009 11:43:35
I'm possibly being a bit of an idiot here but I really don't understand what the big issue is with can-flipping.

I don't do it myself (carebear yo!) and I can see why it would be annoying that someone would ruin your hard work, but that's why you have the choice between whether to steal it back and potentially lose your ship, or completely ignore them and lose the ore but keep your ship.

It never ceases to amaze me how people continually get killed in expensive ships by someone can-flipping them when it's obvious that the flipper is set up for PvP and the flippee... isn't (unless they aren't really interested in mining/missioning anyway and are just hoping to gank a flipper with a bizarre & unexpected setup).

*shrug*

Robert Caldera
Posted - 2009.04.20 11:44:00 - [37]
 

Edited by: Robert Caldera on 20/04/2009 11:45:29
there are secure cans at your disposal. Use them.
If you prefer insecure cans for larger volume accepting the tradeoff of thievery you cant go on forums then and whine about thievery.

Desiree Cousteau
Posted - 2009.04.20 15:14:00 - [38]
 

Originally by: NightF0x
Originally by: Desiree Cousteau
So herein lies the problem, ccp should address the issue fully i think by the next patch.... im off to bed now :-)


what issue? the game's working as intended


it is but it shouldn't... your missing the point.. ok let me explain with a different situation..

If i walk outside with a gun and shoot someone in the head, within minutes a swat team will be around me telling me to drop the gun or die, (usually shoot first lol).. but if i steal someone's car then kill them with a gun, the police should be fine with that?? even if the person i stole from puched me in the face for stealing his car before i killed him?

what im saying is ccp should make it more fair for the victim's of can flippers that are just out to grief.. give a defence modifier bonus or concord intervention at least :-)

Traidor Disloyal
Private Nuisance
Segregati0n
Posted - 2009.04.20 15:20:00 - [39]
 

There is nothing wrong with how it works now. Do one of the following:
1. Mine into a secure container
2. Bring protection

If you do not want to do either one then to bad. And by the way OP, you were one of my favorite actresses in your time. Loved your movies.

Hariya
Posted - 2009.04.20 15:25:00 - [40]
 

Originally by: Desiree Cousteau

what im saying is ccp should make it more fair for the victim's of can flippers that are just out to grief.. give a defence modifier bonus or concord intervention at least :-)


I agree. Concord should destroy the person who makes a jetcan in the first place for littering.

endaler
Posted - 2009.04.20 16:04:00 - [41]
 

Maybe you should stop using the word griefing, since griefing is: A griefer is a player who plays a computer game simply to aggravate and harass other players.

Just because you are on the wrong end of the missile launcher, doesn't mean they are griefing you. Have you thought about risk vs reward? Can flipping is almost the ONLY risk a miner has. Taking that away will be risk = 0, reward = OVER 9000!!!

Anjor
Minmatar
Advanced Security And Asset Protection
Posted - 2009.04.20 17:26:00 - [42]
 

Originally by: Desiree Cousteau
Originally by: NightF0x
Originally by: Desiree Cousteau
So herein lies the problem, ccp should address the issue fully i think by the next patch.... im off to bed now :-)


what issue? the game's working as intended


it is but it shouldn't... your missing the point.. ok let me explain with a different situation..

If i walk outside with a gun and shoot someone in the head, within minutes a swat team will be around me telling me to drop the gun or die, (usually shoot first lol).. but if i steal someone's car then kill them with a gun, the police should be fine with that?? even if the person i stole from puched me in the face for stealing his car before i killed him?

what im saying is ccp should make it more fair for the victim's of can flippers that are just out to grief.. give a defence modifier bonus or concord intervention at least :-)


Bad analogy there, but being that you're as dense as you're naive I figure let's break it down better.

First of all, they aren't killing you, they are "destroying" property. They have rights to attack your ship, but not your pod so I suggest you figure out the difference. It is fair, it is like saying it isn't fair that I left my car unlocked and someone stole from it.

You're trying to bring law into an environment that law doesn't truly exist. Best way to describe Eve, is Frontier Justice. You, the explorer find someone stealing your property, as it is your right to defend that said property you may engage them, however with the rule saying that any man that escalates with a weapon said other man may defend themselves accordingly. So you pull a gun, and in their said defense they are able to use a gun as well.

Don't dilute yourself into thinking you should have special treatment, the game is designed more or less with a set principle of the dark ages. It's a kill or be killed environment, with extraterritorial powers for the nations and set alliances. If you have a said problem with this I would suggest finding friends to work with, as any frontiers men knew when they went into the west at any given moment being alone you could find yourself dead. There isn't a true safety, just more or less safe. Learn the mechanics, and adapt...or perish.

RedSplat
Posted - 2009.04.20 17:37:00 - [43]
 

Originally by: Irn Bruce
HIGHSEC mining isn't supposed to be 100% risk free


Originally by: Irn Bruce
it just gets more risky the more isk you try to make. Which is right and proper.



Sadly not the case as current, mining veld in Highsec is more profitable than almost all Lowsec ores and a goodly number of 0.0 Ores, ABC excepted.

Teth Soress
Minmatar
The Hunt Club
Posted - 2009.04.20 17:56:00 - [44]
 

Edited by: Teth Soress on 20/04/2009 17:57:44
Originally by: Ruze Ahkor'Murkon
By the way, the one true solution, I feel, is to remove all aggression rights from jet cans. If you jettison it, it's free game. Whether someone else takes it from you and puts it in their own jet can? No difference, still fair game.

This wouldn't stop people from taking your stuff (theft, only without the legalities), but would stop them from using it as a gank tactic.


^^this

Or they could just make a larger secure can. There is no real sensible reason why a secure can has to be the size that they limit them to.

Lear Hepburn
Caldari
Ascendant Strategies Inc.
The Transcendent
Posted - 2009.04.20 18:19:00 - [45]
 

Edited by: Lear Hepburn on 20/04/2009 18:19:29
Originally by: Desiree Cousteau
Originally by: NightF0x
Originally by: Desiree Cousteau
So herein lies the problem, ccp should address the issue fully i think by the next patch.... im off to bed now :-)


what issue? the game's working as intended


it is but it shouldn't... your missing the point.. ok let me explain with a different situation..

If i walk outside with a gun and shoot someone in the head, within minutes a swat team will be around me telling me to drop the gun or die, (usually shoot first lol).. but if i steal someone's car then kill them with a gun, the police should be fine with that?? even if the person i stole from puched me in the face for stealing his car before i killed him?

what im saying is ccp should make it more fair for the victim's of can flippers that are just out to grief.. give a defence modifier bonus or concord intervention at least :-)

Never, ever mistake law and order in New Eden with law and order in the real world. Concord does not protect your stuff from theft, it merely protects you. You have the right to protect your own stuff if someone takes it but if you use that right then you lose the privilege of Concord protection from your target.

Your stuff must therefore be protected by you. You can do so with GSCsif you wish, making the stuff unstealable; you can have other people around to protect you and your stuff; or you can use a ship with a large hold so you don't ever need to jettison. Any combination of these is acceptable.

Those are the mechanics; it is up to you how you use them. If you can't use the mechanic then don't complain about how Eve is broken.

Sep'Shoni
Gallente
Carpe Diem inc.
Posted - 2009.04.23 03:01:00 - [46]
 

Originally by: Desiree Cousteau
glad that some of you got the point lol, yes pirating is not the problem. it is griefing as a result of flipping your can.. a common gang gank tactic is , 3 man griefer fleet target a mining op. 1 fleet member goes in, (in a cheap frigate) flips the miner can, the miner either a) moves the ore back, or b) attacks the flipper with drones,, either way causes counter aggression, gank buddies warp in and take out all the hulks in ewar hacs.. (btw we do usually mine into a orca during corp ops now, just miners when the orca pilot is offline use the old jetcan, which in my Opinion should be 100% safe to do in high security space)

by the way the term "jettison" in the space sence of the word, would mean cast overboard, ie jettison fuel, Jettison waste.. whichever synome of the word, it does not mean to "Disown" (im tire :-(



If we weren't meant to mine into jetcans the hold of a retriever would be big enough to hold at least one full cycle of both lasers with mining laser upgrades and the fleeting bonus.

AtheistOfDoom
Amarr
Invicta.
Posted - 2009.04.23 03:16:00 - [47]
 

Originally by: Sep'Shoni
Originally by: Desiree Cousteau
glad that some of you got the point lol, yes pirating is not the problem. it is griefing as a result of flipping your can.. a common gang gank tactic is , 3 man griefer fleet target a mining op. 1 fleet member goes in, (in a cheap frigate) flips the miner can, the miner either a) moves the ore back, or b) attacks the flipper with drones,, either way causes counter aggression, gank buddies warp in and take out all the hulks in ewar hacs.. (btw we do usually mine into a orca during corp ops now, just miners when the orca pilot is offline use the old jetcan, which in my Opinion should be 100% safe to do in high security space)

by the way the term "jettison" in the space sence of the word, would mean cast overboard, ie jettison fuel, Jettison waste.. whichever synome of the word, it does not mean to "Disown" (im tire :-(



If we weren't meant to mine into jetcans the hold of a retriever would be big enough to hold at least one full cycle of both lasers with mining laser upgrades and the fleeting bonus.


Large Secure Containers. thats why.

Octoven
Amarr
State Protectorate
Posted - 2009.04.23 03:22:00 - [48]
 

I like it, it balances out and gives noobs a chance for assitance. Griffers are just pilots who dont want to try it in low sec so they basically take advantage of noob weakness.

Sep'Shoni
Gallente
Carpe Diem inc.
Posted - 2009.04.23 03:39:00 - [49]
 

Originally by: AtheistOfDoom
Originally by: Sep'Shoni
Originally by: Desiree Cousteau
glad that some of you got the point lol, yes pirating is not the problem. it is griefing as a result of flipping your can.. a common gang gank tactic is , 3 man griefer fleet target a mining op. 1 fleet member goes in, (in a cheap frigate) flips the miner can, the miner either a) moves the ore back, or b) attacks the flipper with drones,, either way causes counter aggression, gank buddies warp in and take out all the hulks in ewar hacs.. (btw we do usually mine into a orca during corp ops now, just miners when the orca pilot is offline use the old jetcan, which in my Opinion should be 100% safe to do in high security space)

by the way the term "jettison" in the space sence of the word, would mean cast overboard, ie jettison fuel, Jettison waste.. whichever synome of the word, it does not mean to "Disown" (im tire :-(



If we weren't meant to mine into jetcans the hold of a retriever would be big enough to hold at least one full cycle of both lasers with mining laser upgrades and the fleeting bonus.


Large Secure Containers. thats why.


Which you can't anchor close enough together to mine a single, decent-sized asteroid into them.

Lear Hepburn
Caldari
Ascendant Strategies Inc.
The Transcendent
Posted - 2009.04.23 05:42:00 - [50]
 

Originally by: Sep'Shoni
Which you can't anchor close enough together to mine a single, decent-sized asteroid into them.

So you actually have to move? My God, what an awful idea! In that case you must be correct about the whole subject.
Rolling Eyes

That was sarcasm, in case it doesn't come across.

Grek Forto
Crosshair Corp
Posted - 2009.04.23 06:37:00 - [51]
 

Stop whining and use GSC's ffs.

Hariya
Posted - 2009.04.23 17:18:00 - [52]
 

Originally by: endaler
Maybe you should stop using the word griefing, since griefing is: A griefer is a player who plays a computer game simply to aggravate and harass other players.


, and does it constantly, as a targeted action towards specific player. If podding repeatedly and camping outside the station did not happen, it was not griefing.

Johli
Caldari
Thundercats
RAZOR Alliance
Posted - 2009.04.23 17:21:00 - [53]
 

tl;dr I'm doing something that was never intended though original game mechanics and I am getting griefed. Why isn't CONCORD protecting me etc etc brb sleep

Giddoni
Posted - 2009.04.23 19:49:00 - [54]
 

Quote:
If i walk outside with a gun and shoot someone in the head, within minutes a swat team will be around me telling me to drop the gun or die, (usually shoot first lol).. but if i steal someone's car then kill them with a gun, the police should be fine with that?? even if the person i stole from puched me in the face for stealing his car before i killed him?


I love this analogy Very Happy

Quote:
just remove aggression rights from jetcans


I think this gets at the heart of the issue. Jetcan "ownership" is a weird mechanic that I'd like to see go away. Making jetcans "unowned" would change the situation. Instead of people shooting eachother over a jetcan, it would be industrials going around scooping cans with impunity. Unfortunately for solo mining, that would mean a lot of warping back and forth, or using a badger ugh, or any one of a number of creative techniques, but that'd still be an improvement over the current situation where rookies are getting tricked and killed.

That leaves the question of how to avenge someone taking from your un-owned jetcan, which opens up the issue of war declarations on people in NPC corporations, which is discussed in depth elsewhere.

hawtalt pr0nmistress
Posted - 2009.04.23 22:12:00 - [55]
 

Just another idiot whining that they want game mechanics changed to suit them. Jetcan flagging was only introduced because soooo many people were exploiting the jetcan feature by using it as a portable 27k m3 cargo hold then moaning because people could steal their ore with impunity.
If you don't want to die when your can gets flipped, don't reflip/shoot (tbh you're an idiot if you do either without backup). Alternatively, don't mine somewhere there are loads of can flippers. The OP and his corp are so full of fail my eyes are bleeding. My suggestion is to leave it as it is because it's not broken but train players to not be morons. Alternatively, this could be a maximum trollage thread in which case, good job! Laughing

Sep'Shoni
Gallente
Carpe Diem inc.
Posted - 2009.04.24 18:10:00 - [56]
 

Originally by: Lear Hepburn
Originally by: Sep'Shoni
Which you can't anchor close enough together to mine a single, decent-sized asteroid into them.

So you actually have to move? My God, what an awful idea! In that case you must be correct about the whole subject.
Rolling Eyes

That was sarcasm, in case it doesn't come across.


In case you haven't noticed, mining lasers have a range on them.

There are many systems already so dense with secure cans that its impossible to plant more within actual range of the belt.

So saying to "just" use secure containers is meaningless hand-waving.

With all the whining that goes on about how mining veld in high-sec is more profitable than mining low sec making it even harder to mine large quantities of veld would increase the price of tritanium further and concentrate people even more tightly in high-sec.

Ruze Ahkor'Murkon
Amarr
No Applicable Corporation
Posted - 2009.04.24 18:15:00 - [57]
 

Originally by: Sep'Shoni
Originally by: Lear Hepburn
Originally by: Sep'Shoni
Which you can't anchor close enough together to mine a single, decent-sized asteroid into them.

So you actually have to move? My God, what an awful idea! In that case you must be correct about the whole subject.
Rolling Eyes

That was sarcasm, in case it doesn't come across.


In case you haven't noticed, mining lasers have a range on them.

There are many systems already so dense with secure cans that its impossible to plant more within actual range of the belt.

So saying to "just" use secure containers is meaningless hand-waving.

With all the whining that goes on about how mining veld in high-sec is more profitable than mining low sec making it even harder to mine large quantities of veld would increase the price of tritanium further and concentrate people even more tightly in high-sec.


There are approximately 1,212 hisec systems in the EvE cluster. Of that, most of those systems have between 6 and 12 belts, almost all of which are composed primarily of veldspar (with the odd ice belt here and there).

Your saying that in all 1,212 systems, multiplied and averaged by half a dozen, there are so many secure cans placed that you are unable to place your own to mine into?

Erovicious
Sebiestor Tribe
Posted - 2009.04.24 18:30:00 - [58]
 

Originally by: Hariya
In case you did not realize, pirates are one of the major and most respected occupations in Eve. Eve is not supposed to be Hello Kitty Online. Eve is 100% PVP game. If you can't handle it, go back to WOW or subscribe to the Hello Kitty Online.


Let me see if I can translate this poster's response:

1) Pirates > You. (Still living with your parents at age 35 is part of their special skill set, which isn't for everyone.)

2) EvE is a game that promotes beliefs modeled after the U.S. Government - those who work have the fruits of their labors taken by those (or distributed to those) who do not - and you have to like it.

3) You are not permitted to have a counter view to this poster. If you do, you must find another game. Shame on you.

*Ero*


Nephilius
Caldari
Pillage and Plunder Salvage Co.
Posted - 2009.04.24 18:45:00 - [59]
 

Originally by: cyno here
Because stealing is not criminal act (police don't care) but they let you fight back a flipper.
Also jettison cans were NOT ment for mining, for that you got secure cans + hauler.


I find this post funny. In another post, there was a request for a larger secure can, something between GSCs and Freighter Secure Containers. The reply there was to use jetcans because they have massive amounts of space. I just found the above to be humorously (or should that be humorlessly?) ironic.

Ms Delerium
Posted - 2009.04.24 19:03:00 - [60]
 

2003 characters are great in every sense.

Now we dealing with a 2003, extreme carebear. WTF? Dude stop whining and accept the rules or GTFO. Read yourself, you sound like a 7 years old kid crying cause some other guy took your toy. Grow up!!!

The average player has lost 2-3 ships due to canflippers at noob stage, but there is no reason you won't learn from it and adapt...

This game is meant to interact with others in a hostile world. means pew pew, as said this is not Hello Kitty online. You cant avoid "griefers" to round you. More like if you show up like a big carebear, you will get dozens of them harassing you and your mining ops.

You are not forced to use jetcans. You want the reward and not the risk. You want CONCORD to work at your entire disposal and service. WTF.


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