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Tabius
Gallente
ClanZero Corp
Posted - 2003.06.20 18:55:00 - [1]
 

This has to be the most useless skill in the game. It takes aproximately a week to learn Learning 5.... in order to gain a 2% bonus to learning times.

Lets do the math.

with a 2% reduction in learning time, you gain aproximately 1 half hour per 24 hours of learning time.

learning 5 takes aproximately 7 days to train.

That's 168 hours... gaining 1/2 hour per 24 in learning time, means you would have to train for 336 days in order to gain back the time you loose training (learning 5)

I haven't found any skills that require it....so? is it useless?

Tabius


BSOD
Gallente
Calista Industries
Posted - 2003.06.20 20:05:00 - [2]
 

The idea is that you'll likely be playing a lot longer than 336 days. :)

That said - The other Learning skills are more useful. Learning itself might only be useful to L3 or L4.

Nekayah
Posted - 2003.06.20 21:11:00 - [3]
 

Let's not forget a lot of important skills are higher than rank 1. How many rank 5 skills do you have to learn to justify Learning (which is rank 1)? And then there are rank 12 skills...

Parallax
Posted - 2003.06.20 21:14:00 - [4]
 

Take a look at this link

http://www.geocities.com/qubexist/index.html

Now I don't know how long it will take to learn a rank 12 skill such as the Jove Frigate and/or Cruiser skills or any of the Titan skills but I can imagine that 2% will help out very nicely stretched over a few levels of those skills.

If a rank 1 level 5 skill like learning takes a week I wonder how long a rank 12 level 5 skill takes? I don't have the answer to that but I'll be thankful I took the time to train level 5 learning at that point. I think the time it takes to learn level 5 learning will pale in comparison to the time it will take to learn level 5 Jove Frigate and the extra 2% will help out a lot.

P.S. I'm just under 5 hours to go on completing my level 5 learning skill.

Edited by: Parallax on 20/06/2003 21:15:54

Minsc
Gallente
Alpha Empire
Posted - 2003.06.20 21:29:00 - [5]
 

All of the lerning skills are very usefull to get and train up to maximum level, while learning may not make much difference on the low rank skills (rank 1-5) it could potentially shave WEEKS of of some of the higher rank skills.

As far as the other learning skills go they can decrease training time by up to 34-40% depending on your starting attributes.

there is a really good article on it at www.eve-i.com so anyone who wants a thorough explanation should check it out.

Ansuul
Minmatar
Posted - 2003.06.21 02:53:00 - [6]
 

It doesn't matter what rank the skill you are going to learn is. Learning skill just affects the rate at which you learn SPs. And in actuality, when normalized the time you save at L4, it is more like 1.8%. So, that week or so it takes to learn L5 does indeed take about a year to break even at. And then after another year, you'd only be about a week ahead of someone at L4.

Yes, it saves time, but that is too slow of a payback for too little gain for me. YMMV.

And say you want to learn a rank 12 skill to L5, with just 10/10 in attributes. Learning L5 will shave about 2.5 days off of 131.5 days....

Discorporation
Amarr
Evolution
Band of Brothers
Posted - 2003.06.21 16:00:00 - [7]
 

I have a hunch there will be something like Advanced Learning skills in the future.

Prerequisite being, ofc, lvl 5 Learning.

we already got this for Drones (Drone interfacing) and other skills (well, coparable, anyway) so why not for learning?

Tnelyos
Posted - 2003.06.22 10:09:00 - [8]
 

i hope that once we make more contact with the Jove that more learning skills will surface. the jove are supposed to be more learned then the other races, so it goes to roleplaying that they'd have better ways to advance their stats and skills.

Gafton
Anormalii S.A.
Posted - 2003.06.22 11:42:00 - [9]
 

the lower the rank/level the skill the less the learning skill with affect the training time. When you get up to rank 5+ skills you'll start to notice hours and days fall off the required training time. Thats where the skill starts to prove it's usefulness.

Ansuul
Minmatar
Posted - 2003.06.22 15:24:00 - [10]
 

Since the learning skill just modifies the rate at which you earn SPs, it is neither more nor less effective at higher rank skills. True, the overall time it saves on a rank 5 skill is greater, but is no different than what you would have saved had you trained 5 rank 1 skills the same amount (assuming equal attributes, etc.).

My view is that it would take most of a year to save as much time as it would take to train from Learning L4 to L5, and therefore I don't feel it's worth it. If a useful skill is added that has L5 as a requirement, then I would re-assess this.

DarkRift
Posted - 2003.06.23 00:47:00 - [11]
 

Every skill has this problem. Except for level five prerequisites, the extra bonus does not justify the training time from level four to five being five and a half times longer than training from level zero to four.

Gunnz
Minmatar
Brutor Tribe
Posted - 2003.06.23 07:02:00 - [12]
 

Yes there will be more "Learning" skillz in the future and they are called implants, witch of yet have not been implimented :)

Mynah Birde
Posted - 2003.06.23 15:00:00 - [13]
 

I'd concur that unless you are thinking extremely long tern there is no point in aquiring learning level 5. It will take (training time x 50) to recoup the investment.

In reality it will probably be even more than that since if you are like me there will be days when there are no good skill options to train that will last until you log back on (7 hours sleep, 10 hours at work or commuting makes for lot of offline training.) So you're either training a long skill you didn't really want just yet in order to be time-efficient or you train a shorter skill you do really want then lose hours of time when you're not training anything at all. The 2% benefit on those skills are wasted.

Nott
Posted - 2003.06.23 23:30:00 - [14]
 

I'd suggest that upping an attribute boost skill to level 5 is much more valuable than going for learning level 5.

whoda1
Posted - 2003.06.25 01:10:00 - [15]
 

How long does it take to train a Level 12 skill to rank 1?

I'm guessing 10 days or so.

Ansuul
Minmatar
Posted - 2003.06.25 03:27:00 - [16]
 

Do you mean, a rank 12 skill to level 1? For one where the attributes are 10/10 and 0 learning, 3:20, and if you had learning 5, 3:02 (that's hh:mm, btw).

DarkRift
Posted - 2003.06.25 08:20:00 - [17]
 

In training a Rank 12 skill from 0 to level 4 with attributes 10/10 and learning level 4 takes 23 days 3 hours and 8 minutes. With learning at level 5 you save a ***ping 12 hours and 4 minutes. However it would have cost you 9 days to train the learning skill from 4 to 5 so what's the point.

However, training your primary attribute instead of learning would save you 1 day 10 hours 42 minutes. That's 187% better than training learning.

Edited by: DarkRift on 25/06/2003 08:25:31

drunkenmaster
Evolution
IT Alliance
Posted - 2003.06.25 09:01:00 - [18]
 

yes, but what about when advanced learning hits the streets? everyone will be clamouring for lvl5 learning, as the bonus of advanced learning, if it's in line with mining/adv. mining, it will be an extra 4% per level. That's on top of your stats and the 10% for basic learning.

And then you can see whether it's worth it...

But for now, just train up all your learning attributes.

Roger1
Posted - 2003.06.26 12:06:00 - [19]
 

As there seem to be no skills for sale atm this is a bit academic ;)

drunkenmaster
Evolution
IT Alliance
Posted - 2003.06.26 12:49:00 - [20]
 

coorect, darkrift.

Taking your primary skill from 10 to 11 will give you ~10% reduction in training.

Best bet is to train intelligence before training, that way training 5 will only take 5 days or so :)

T'el'Alana Luathin
Posted - 2003.06.26 13:42:00 - [21]
 

But everyone agrees that taking learning skill up to lvl 4 is a sound choice, right?

Bambi
Existentialist Collective
Posted - 2003.06.26 13:59:00 - [22]
 

I trained all 6 learning skills to level 4 as soon as I could, it knocks a fair bit off low level skills, but when you are training rank 5 skills to level 3 or 4 it takes hours and hours off the time. Mulitply this by the 65-70 skills my main character has, its a ncie saving in time.


drunkenmaster
Evolution
IT Alliance
Posted - 2003.06.26 15:27:00 - [23]
 

best bet is to train in roughly the following order:

learning 1
intel 1
mem 1
perc 1
intel 2
mem 2
perc 2
learning 2
intel 3
mem 3
perc 3
learning 3
intel 4
mem 4
perc 4
learning 4
willpower 1-4
empathy 1-4

This might not be the abosolute ultimate plan, but it's quicker than doing learning first.

Also, these are not the names of the skills, but the affected attributes.

Ansuul
Minmatar
Posted - 2003.06.26 17:15:00 - [24]
 

Since mem has the most influence on the time it takes to train the learning skills, and int the 2nd most, you will save the most time by training in that order (mem, int, learning).

If your goal is to train all the learning skills to L4 before doing anything else, your best bet is to do Learning 1, Instant Recall 1-4, Analytical Mind 1-4, Learning 2-4, then any others. (Learning 1 is first because it is a requirement to train the others, if I remember correctly.)

However, other priorities may get in the way, so this is not necessarily the "best" for any given character, just the fastest way to get all the learning skills to L4.

Dolgrathe Nackle
Gallente
Portsmouth Shipyards
Posted - 2003.06.30 15:22:00 - [25]
 

Hi all
Ansuul is right in his comments of a quick impact solution of training MEM first then INT
lvl 1 then lvl2 etc however learning should come last as the following applies to the benefit of each lvl trained
Primary skill reduction in training time 6.25% for each relevant skill
Secondary skill applies a 3.25% reduction
Learning skill applies a 2% reduction

On a sperate note the time it takes to train a rank 12 skill is as follows assuming average stats of 10 in the primary and secondary attribute.

No learning skill =142.2 days
Learning skill lvl5 =129.3
Primary Attribute skill +5 =106.7 days
Secondary attribute +5 = 121.9
Prim+5, Second +5 Learning 5 = 86.2 days

Big difference.
Dol

MoiraineDamodred
Gallente
Aliastra
Posted - 2003.07.05 08:26:00 - [26]
 

I'd disagree with drunkenmaster's plan.

Train memory all the way first (to L4), then do the same with Intelligence, then Learning, then the rest of the learning skills. Memory is the Learning skills primary attribute, and you want to get that as high as possible to reduce the amount of time you spend learning the other skills.

After you've done that, it's pretty much your needs that dictate what to train. Again, I'd recommend training the areas with the lowest attributes first because you'll see the biggest gain there.

Jitters
Posted - 2003.08.03 18:44:00 - [27]
 

Quote:
I'd disagree with drunkenmaster's plan.

Train memory all the way first (to L4), then do the same with Intelligence, then Learning[...]



You can't really disagree with mathematics. ;-)

Assuming you'll want to train your Learning skills exclusively for a period, all that matters is how your current choice will affect future improvement of Learning skills (as opposed to how raising your perception would allow a small detour into Gunnery skills).

As the formula goes, each improvement is increasingly more time consuming. You know for certain that you'll want to raise both Intelligence (primary) and Memory (secondary) before anything else. Now, you know that each raise of Int will add 1 point to the time equation (I assume you know it: http://www.eve-i.de/article.php?id=33), while each raise of Mem will add 0.5 points.
The common mistake would be to just go for the most points (i.e. Int every time). This is not optimal. To optimize you'll want to look at how much a point increase is worth towards the next level compared to how long that point increase takes to get.

With Intelligence being primary, obviously you'll want to get that to lvl 1 first since the same amount of skill points will be needed regardless of choice.
Raising Int to lvl 2 from here will cost 1164 skill points. Raising Mem to lvl 1 will cost 250 skill points - and you get these skill points at the same speed since the skills share primary and secondary attributes. So, raising Int, you get 8.59 attribute points per 10k skill points. Raising Mem, you get 20.00 attribute points per 10k skill points - much better.

Again, with Int lvl 2 and Mem lvl 0:
Raising Int to lvl 3 will cost 6586 skill points, giving you as little as 1.52 attribute points per 10k skill points (compared to 20.00 if you raise Mem to lvl 1).

With regards to the Learning skill itself, again you'll have to weigh the increase in Learning speed vs. the cost in points.
Raising Learning to lvl 1 costs 250 points and gives a 2% increase. Raising Int to lvl 2 costs 1164 points, so for this to be a better increase per skill point, it'd have to be a (1164/250 * 2%) = 9.32% increase. This will happen only when (Int + Mem/2) is 10 points or less which in itself is not common and will become less likely as you raise those stats through Learning. At higher levels the difference in skill points needed to advance becomes steeper and as such makes Learning an even more viable choice.

It is obvious that raising Int to lvl 1 before raising Learning is wise, since a 1 point increase in Int will always be more than 2% unless (Int + Mem/2) is at least 50 points.

To conclude: from lvl 0 it is most efficient to first train Int lvl 1, then Mem lvl 1, then Learning lvl 1. Since the curves only get steeper after this point we can infer that this pattern should be repeated, i.e.:
Int 1
Mem 1
Lea 1
Int 2
Mem 2
Lea 2
Int 3
...etc...

Hyden
Hadean Drive Yards
Archaean Cooperative
Posted - 2003.08.03 19:07:00 - [28]
 

Edited by: Hyden on 03/08/2003 19:08:12
Edited by: Hyden on 03/08/2003 19:07:57
This is the correct method:

"If your goal is to train all the learning skills to L4 before doing anything else, your best bet is to do Learning 1, Instant Recall 1-4, Analytical Mind 1-4, Learning 2-4, then any others. (Learning 1 is first because it is a requirement to train the others, if I remember correctly.)"

-quote from Ansuul

Gordam
Posted - 2003.08.03 19:28:00 - [29]
 

You can test the impact Learning has on this page:
http://robbiegee.server101.com/eve/skillcalc.php
(this page is designed to be viewed in-game, but will of course work in normal browsers as well)

Ana Khouri
Caldari
Doomheim
Posted - 2003.08.04 18:22:00 - [30]
 

@ Jitters:
Actually Memory is primary in the learning skills Wink

So it's learning->memory->intel for the first leavel (since you need lvl1 learning to learn the attribute skills) and memory->intel->learing for lvl 2-4.


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