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Lilith Velkor
Minmatar
Heretic Army
B A N E
Posted - 2009.04.13 19:50:00 - [31]
 

Quote:

Anyway shooting AT optimal+falloff is just silly, no Vaga pilot does that.



That depends on what you are fighting, if its frigates (what the vagabond excels at killing) you'll be at the edge of disruptor range, i.e. 24km. If its a large engagement you might very well find yourself fighting at even longer ranges, thats why pimped Vagabonds use 28km disruptors these days.

Quote:

I'm still not convinced of your autocannon/ blaster tracking logic, tho I do agree that pulses rule a bit too much atm. I'm a Blaster guy so I talk about them tbh.


Again, I wasnt really saying autocannons need a tracking boost compared to blasters, its just that if I see people calling for the opposite, i.e. boosting blaster tracking compared to ACs gets me really boiling.

It just displays they got zero clue about how the autocannons work and how they are used in combat.

So take what I said about "blasters tracking already too good" as a bit of overexaggeration, imo both systems are perfectly in line with each other.

Allen Ramses
Caldari
Zombicidal Mania
Posted - 2009.04.13 20:28:00 - [32]
 

They can start working on blasters once they start working on missiles and large projectiles. Until then, stop your *****ing.

You know perfectly well why.

Raimo
Genos Occidere
HYDRA RELOADED
Posted - 2009.04.13 22:53:00 - [33]
 

Edited by: Raimo on 13/04/2009 22:53:01

Now that NMX is here and it's going to be an useless threadnaught, won't hurt me posting this here as well. Check EVE-Kill's FOTM top 20 lists:

(I think they have most of EVE PVP there already so the lists are probably rather accurate)

Top 20 weapons, notice that only 2 of 3 light blasters are here, no mediums or heavies

Top 20 ships, Ranis is here with it's lights but only other blasterboat is the Mega, and if you look at the weapons list they are fitting rails...


Hmm. Quite a bit of projectile and missile boats and weapons on there as well... I wonder if it's still a case of medium and large blasters and their platforms needing a boost? Rolling Eyes

Lilith Velkor
Minmatar
Heretic Army
B A N E
Posted - 2009.04.13 23:26:00 - [34]
 

Edited by: Lilith Velkor on 13/04/2009 23:44:27
Killboard stats are misleading at best tbh, my guess is 75% of the 'killers' in these killmails scored less than 100 damage.

From my personal experience, weapons used is a completely worthless stat, as I'm pretty sure my warp disruptor II doesnt do any damage, but my killmails regularly say I killed (and scored damage) with it. So we can dismiss the "weapons used" part as totally inaccurate already, more so since most ships have gun/missile hardpoints and dronebay, which skews the stats.

Seeing that the first battleship to show up on the list at rank 5 is in fact a Megathron, large blaster platforms cant be all that bad (at least according to that statistic).

But as I said, worthless statistic is worthless.

Skjorta
Posted - 2009.04.14 01:29:00 - [35]
 

Should be a simple formula for weapons like...

Range
Damage (damage multiplier & rate of fire)
Tracking

Pick 2.

Currently.
Ac's = mediocre at all.
Pulse = good at all
Blasters = good at 1

Lilith Velkor
Minmatar
Heretic Army
B A N E
Posted - 2009.04.14 03:14:00 - [36]
 

Edited by: Lilith Velkor on 14/04/2009 03:19:12
Originally by: Skjorta

Currently.
Ac's = mediocre range (falloff =/= optimal), good tracking, bad damage
Pulse = good range, good damage, good tracking (only due to range!)
Blasters = good damage, good tracking, bad range


Thats more like it actually.

Raimo
Genos Occidere
HYDRA RELOADED
Posted - 2009.04.14 04:15:00 - [37]
 

Originally by: Lilith Velkor
Edited by: Lilith Velkor on 13/04/2009 23:44:27
From my personal experience, weapons used is a completely worthless stat, as I'm pretty sure my warp disruptor II doesnt do any damage, but my killmails regularly say I killed (and scored damage) with it. So we can dismiss the "weapons used" part as totally inaccurate already, more so since most ships have gun/missile hardpoints and dronebay, which skews the stats.

Seeing that the first battleship to show up on the list at rank 5 is in fact a Megathron, large blaster platforms cant be all that bad (at least according to that statistic).



Like said Mega seems to be up there fitting Rails, I guess it still does a passable sniper and it's what a lot of people have trained. No warp disruptors or webs on there m8.

Liang Nuren
Posted - 2009.04.14 04:31:00 - [38]
 

Edited by: Liang Nuren on 14/04/2009 04:31:48
Originally by: NightmareX
1. Did you forget that i was talking about the tracking in the Neutrons optimal range?. I was not talking about how good the Lasers was with the tracking at med ranges, i was talking about how the tracking was at 5 km for Pulses, like when someone is close to you.


No, but I'm trying to point out that what you're talking about is useless. You don't compare pulse lasers to blasters at blaster optimal and say that pulse lasers are broken because they don't track as well at that range! You compare pulse lasers at pulse laser optimal and blasters at blaster optimal to see how their tracking is against similar targets. You see how much damage can be applied not only at that range but at nearby ranges. You see how much distance and time is required to both get under and get away from their guns. And in this case, pulse lasers have hella better tracking than blasters!

Quote:
2. I have tried a geddon & Abaddon with pulses and compared them to a Neutron Mega. I then got someone in a Hurricane to orbit me at 5 km. Then i webbed the Hurricane with all of the ships and did shoot the Hurricane. I did kill the Hurricane though.


The really sad thing here is that you were able to kill the Hurricane at all - and also shows how pathetic and unrealistic your sisi comparison was. Just how close do you have to get in order to get under pulse tracking anyway? Obviously 5km isn't close enough. To put this in perspective, Neutrons would have to be hitting at 1500 meters - and unless your target's sitting still, they don't. Simply put, pulse lasers are way out of line, and in this case, the right answer is BOOST BLASTER TRACKING and ADD AC FALLOFF.

In the end, though, you haven't tried anything worth talking about because all your combat experience is prearranged bullcrap on Sisi. What a waste of time - on Sisi everything essentially costs you the time it takes to fit the ship. On TQ you have to go grind missions, market *****, or mine to make up the ships you keep losing.

Originally by: NightmareX
When you find out that the tracking, DPS, EHP, sig radius, speed, resists, slot layout, capacitor, drones and the rest of the stats and things are exact the same on Sisi as it is on TQ, then i will not call you for stupid.


Those things are the same, but the style in which PVP is done is entirely different. Until you get that through your head, pretty much everyone that's ever engaged in TQ combat - from the 2 month old noob to the 4 year vet is going to think you're a total sisi noob. Sorry man - it's the truth. And the more you troll these boards with your terrible analysis (BUT I CANT TRACK AS WELL WITH PULSE LASERS AS BLASTERS AT BLASTER OPTIMAL THEREFORE BLASTERS DONT NEED HELP) the more you prove that either you have a terrible bias (got an Amarr alt by chance?) or you simply have no clue about how this game actually works and why.

Originally by: NightmareX
The point was not that i had much experience in flying them on TQ, the WHOLE point is that the tracking, DPS etc etc is the same on TQ and Sisi, so i don't need to waste isk and probably risk a ship just to test how the tracking is on TQ, when i can do it on Sisi for free.


The point is that the tracking is the same but the piloting and situations are different. Also, the "facts" you spew about "DPS, EHP, and Tracking" are utter rubbish because they're misapplied and taken out of context.


-Liang

Rhadamantine
Game Community
Posted - 2009.04.14 09:25:00 - [39]
 

Originally by: Liang Nuren
Good post.....
-Liang


I think you made my point quite eloquently, better than I could anyway.
Thank you. Very Happy

NightmareX
Nomads
Nulli Secunda
Posted - 2009.04.14 09:53:00 - [40]
 

Edited by: NightmareX on 14/04/2009 10:02:37
Originally by: Liang Nuren
Lots of talk about Sisi and optimal range

Ok to answer you again on your things over Liang.

1. So if your getting a Hurricane up on your ass that orbits you at either 2.5 km or 5 km. When things like that CAN happen, then i'm comparing the tracking on Blasters and Pulses at those 2 ranges. I can't just start to compare the the tracking at the lasers optimal range then. Because the comparsion would be totally wrong then if i want to find out how the tracking is for the Mega, Abaddon and Armageddon when shooting a target at 2.5 km or 5 km.

Now i hope you get that, because that's what i have been doing.

2. Yes i was able to kill it with no problems. My skills are very nice in Blasters, so i have had no problems with them at all after the web and speed nerf. I have still been able to hit smaller targets in the Neutron Mega pretty good that are orbiting me.

Like the time when i had the Megathron Federate Issue on sisi and when i tried against a Pilgrim with 2x Tracking Disruptor II's on me. What do you think happened when he was orbiting me at like 5 km and was orbiting me at like 250 m/s while he was using both of the Tracking Disruptor II's on me?. Yes this was right after the web and speed nerf.

Yes i'm going to tell you that i was still hitting him, but i wasn't hitting him good enough though. But it just shows that a Mega can track hell of a good when it' in the 5 km range. And it's ALOT more than Lasers can do at this range.

And then you think i can't hit a Hurricane who are bigger than the Pilgrim that are orbiting me at 5 km at normal speed?. LOL.

3. I don't bring in PVP experience from TQ here when i'm finding out what kind og ship that have the best tracking etc etc. Getting one in a Hurricane to orbit your Mega, Abaddon or Armageddon and then find out how the tracking is, is something that is fully acceptable to do on Sisi, because it would be the exact same if i had done the same on TQ. I don't need to be on TQ to just test out the tracking.

4. See point 3.

Childstar
Minmatar
Republic University
Posted - 2009.04.14 10:17:00 - [41]
 

Originally by: NightmareX


1. So if your getting a Hurricane up on your ass that orbits you at either 2.5 km or 5 km. When things like that CAN happen, then i'm comparing the tracking on Blasters and Pulses at those 2 ranges. I can't just start to compare the the tracking at the lasers optimal range then. Because the comparsion would be totally wrong then if i want to find out how the tracking is for the Mega, Abaddon and Armageddon when shooting a target at 2.5 km or 5 km.

Now i hope you get that, because that's what i have been doing.


Stupid comparison because in gang combat (TQ combat) the cane will be well and truly webbed.


The rest is pretty much a pointless rant so not worth responding to.

Ad Valorem
Minmatar
Industrial Mite
Posted - 2009.04.14 11:01:00 - [42]
 

Well between NoobmareX derailing another thread and the usual suspects coming into a BLASTER thread to whine about missiles or Projectiles it seems this thread will also degenerate into a crapfest.

A simple appeal: can we stay on topic?

IMO Blaster tracking is only noticably a problem on battleships. This is because the tracking formula means that a low range requires vastly better tracking, and although blasters have the best tracking its not enough for the low range they operate at, with current game mechanics.

Fix is to either increase tracking, increase range, increase damage or (best solution) fix the tracking formula.

Projectile thread (yes AC's need some love) that way ----->
<----- Missiles thread that way (whine moar noobs)
NoobmareX gtfo

NightmareX
Nomads
Nulli Secunda
Posted - 2009.04.14 11:27:00 - [43]
 

Edited by: NightmareX on 14/04/2009 11:50:18
Originally by: Childstar
Originally by: NightmareX


1. So if your getting a Hurricane up on your ass that orbits you at either 2.5 km or 5 km. When things like that CAN happen, then i'm comparing the tracking on Blasters and Pulses at those 2 ranges. I can't just start to compare the the tracking at the lasers optimal range then. Because the comparsion would be totally wrong then if i want to find out how the tracking is for the Mega, Abaddon and Armageddon when shooting a target at 2.5 km or 5 km.

Now i hope you get that, because that's what i have been doing.


Stupid comparison because in gang combat (TQ combat) the cane will be well and truly webbed.


The rest is pretty much a pointless rant so not worth responding to.

1. And if i'm more of a solo PVPer who like to sit at gates to catch lone targets, then what?. It's not like the Hurricane is going to be truly webbed then foolLaughing.

I really need a BS that can punch out some really nice DPS and at the same time have a very good tracking if the target decide to get close to me to try and out track me. Guess what happens if the Hurricane does that if your in an Armageddon or an Abaddon?.

Yes it's alot of risk to camp a gate alone, but no risk = no fun. Just find the right place to gate camp in and you can have plenty of fun.

2. Says the best rant / whiner king in EVELaughing.
Originally by: Ad Valorem
Well between NoobmareX derailing another thread and the usual suspects coming into a BLASTER thread to whine about missiles or Projectiles it seems this thread will also degenerate into a crapfest.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Idh1yr1SJNA&fmt=18

Seishomaru
Posted - 2009.04.14 11:32:00 - [44]
 

Originally by: Childstar
Originally by: NightmareX


1. So if your getting a Hurricane up on your ass that orbits you at either 2.5 km or 5 km. When things like that CAN happen, then i'm comparing the tracking on Blasters and Pulses at those 2 ranges. I can't just start to compare the the tracking at the lasers optimal range then. Because the comparsion would be totally wrong then if i want to find out how the tracking is for the Mega, Abaddon and Armageddon when shooting a target at 2.5 km or 5 km.

Now i hope you get that, because that's what i have been doing.


Stupid comparison because in gang combat (TQ combat) the cane will be well and truly webbed.





Sorry But now you crippled completely your own argument. If TQ fights the target is always trully webbed. Up to the point that a hurricane at 2 km won't be a problem for pulses..


WHY IN HELLL ARE YOU COMPLAINIGN ABOUT BLASTERS TRACKING???


Sorry but now You did dig your own grave...

Childstar
Minmatar
Republic University
Posted - 2009.04.14 12:11:00 - [45]
 

Edited by: Childstar on 14/04/2009 12:26:34

Originally by: Seishomaru
Originally by: Childstar
Originally by: NightmareX


1. So if your getting a Hurricane up on your ass that orbits you at either 2.5 km or 5 km. When things like that CAN happen, then i'm comparing the tracking on Blasters and Pulses at those 2 ranges. I can't just start to compare the the tracking at the lasers optimal range then. Because the comparsion would be totally wrong then if i want to find out how the tracking is for the Mega, Abaddon and Armageddon when shooting a target at 2.5 km or 5 km.

Now i hope you get that, because that's what i have been doing.


Stupid comparison because in gang combat (TQ combat) the cane will be well and truly webbed.





Sorry But now you crippled completely your own argument. If TQ fights the target is always trully webbed. Up to the point that a hurricane at 2 km won't be a problem for pulses..


WHY IN HELLL ARE YOU COMPLAINIGN ABOUT BLASTERS TRACKING???


Sorry but now You did dig your own grave...


Im not complaining about blaster tracking, its the dmg at 10-20km and cpu and or pg on the blaster ships thats the problem imho.

Childstar
Minmatar
Republic University
Posted - 2009.04.14 12:14:00 - [46]
 

Edited by: Childstar on 14/04/2009 18:18:40
no commment

Brixer
Dai Dai Hai
Posted - 2009.04.14 12:36:00 - [47]
 

Edited by: Brixer on 14/04/2009 12:36:47
I fit T2 autocannons on my myrmidon. As does a lot of others. But I do that only to have guns that don't use cap.. yeah, right Laughing
That's a perfect ship for testing autocannons vs blasters btw, as it got no bonus for either.

Main problem when comparing the two is damage types applied when using highest damage ammo in both. You need a target with well balanced resists to get any kind of comparable results.


Liang Nuren
Posted - 2009.04.14 15:35:00 - [48]
 

Originally by: NightmareX
1. So if your getting a Hurricane up on your ass that orbits you at either 2.5 km or 5 km. When things like that CAN happen, then i'm comparing the tracking on Blasters and Pulses at those 2 ranges. I can't just start to compare the the tracking at the lasers optimal range then. Because the comparsion would be totally wrong then if i want to find out how the tracking is for the Mega, Abaddon and Armageddon when shooting a target at 2.5 km or 5 km.

Now i hope you get that, because that's what i have been doing.


NMX, my point is that this test is utterly invalid. Here are some of the reasons why (there are more):
- Competent cane pilots will not orbit a blaster BS at its optimal. WTF.
- Competent cane pilots might try to orbit a laser BS at 5km, but they're far more likely to load Hail M/RF EMP M and go to town
- Faction ammo is hard to come by on Sisi
- Gang situations would make the tracking of a single BS irrelevant, regardless of it being 'webbed to hell'. The implication here is that the laser BS's effectiveness goes up rather more dramatically than blaster BS's.

Here are the points that stand out as WTF-able:
- You don't mention how you attempted to minimize transversal (so we assume you didn't), but the laser BS was still tracking at 5km.
- The laser BS still hit and killed the Cane even though it was orbiting at a third of optimal. You constantly argue that smaller ships should be able to get under even a Mega's tracking, yet you're fine with it being well nigh unto impossible to get under lasers.

Quote:
2. Yes i was able to kill it with no problems. My skills are very nice in Blasters, so i have had no problems with them at all after the web and speed nerf. I have still been able to hit smaller targets in the Neutron Mega pretty good that are orbiting me.


This is not a claim that you can substantiate because you lack credible PVP experience. PVP on TQ like the rest of us and then come back to talk about how you have no problems with blasters. Remember: Sisi is invalid because while tracking is the same, situations are not. And situation is everything.

Quote:
the Megathron Federate Issue


Nobody cares. Seriously. Unless you plan to PVP on TQ with it, I don't care what exploits you had on Sisi. Yes, yes, I know, you're the smartest person in Eve and anyone that can't make inferior weapons pwn like you is just a loser idiot with a 5 IQ. Whatever.

Quote:
But it just shows that a Mega can track hell of a good when it' in the 5 km range. And it's ALOT more than Lasers can do at this range.


What lasers do at this range is alot more than they should do at this range, TBQFH.

Quote:
3. I don't bring in PVP experience from TQ here when i'm finding out what kind og ship that have the best tracking etc etc. Getting one in a Hurricane to orbit your Mega, Abaddon or Armageddon and then find out how the tracking is, is something that is fully acceptable to do on Sisi, because it would be the exact same if i had done the same on TQ. I don't need to be on TQ to just test out the tracking.


You are wrong. Sure, if someone were to orbit you at 5km then you would get similar results - but people don't mindlessly click the orbit button and walk away from their keyboard on TQ. Remember: situation is everything - and you lack the situational awareness to even know that you're wrong.

NMX, you're (IMO) displaying symptoms of the Dunning-Kruger effect. See, you're so incompetent at the game that you just don't understand why the tests you're running on Sisi are irrelevent - despite virtually everyone in Eve telling you how and why.

Also, the "point the first" business is really frustrating. At least quote or make note of relevant sections of a post so that we know what you're on about this time.

-Liang

NightmareX
Nomads
Nulli Secunda
Posted - 2009.04.14 15:58:00 - [49]
 

Edited by: NightmareX on 14/04/2009 16:01:13
Originally by: Liang Nuren
NMX, you're (IMO) displaying symptoms of the Dunning-Kruger effect. See, you're so incompetent at the game that you just don't understand why the tests you're running on Sisi are irrelevent - despite virtually everyone in Eve telling you how and why.

Then explain to me why many of the tests i do on sisi have alot to say for me on TQ?.

I'm testing stuffs like this on sisi because it's a damn good reason for it.

It let me have a much much easier life on TQ when i'm gonna choose a ship etc etc.

If the tests i have done or do on sisi doesn't had anything for me to say on TQ, then i would do the tests either. It's simple.
Originally by: Childstar
Edited by: Childstar on 14/04/2009 12:27:57


Originally by: NightmareX

1. And if i'm more of a solo PVPer who like to sit at gates to catch lone targets, then what?. It's not like the Hurricane is going to be truly webbed then foolLaughing.


Your not a solo pvper though, in fact your not even a TQ pvper of any description and if you were you would not be sitting solo on a gate in a BS of any description you total tool. Laughing

Why dont you just crawl back to sissi and post your pimped navy mega fit in local im sure the noobs will be impressed, until they realise you have had it for at least 7-8 months and never had the balls to fly it on TQ.Laughing

Still im sure when you get it moved again on the next mirror there will be more noobs to waggle it at and try to impress....LaughingLaughingLaughingLaughing

Oh look, the tearsLaughing.

Can i have more tears to?.

Another Whine
Caldari
Minions of Hasselhoff
Posted - 2009.04.14 16:04:00 - [50]
 

8/10 (9/10) for effort YARRRR!!

fyi you have no idea what you are talking about i fly both races and the ONLY thing thats is ****ed with the gallente blaster boats was and still is the speed nerf nothing else

Childstar
Minmatar
Republic University
Posted - 2009.04.14 16:10:00 - [51]
 

Edited by: Childstar on 14/04/2009 18:18:20
no commment

Childstar
Minmatar
Republic University
Posted - 2009.04.14 16:16:00 - [52]
 

Edited by: Childstar on 14/04/2009 18:18:05
no commment



Childstar
Minmatar
Republic University
Posted - 2009.04.14 16:24:00 - [53]
 

Edited by: Childstar on 14/04/2009 18:17:38
no commment

Childstar
Minmatar
Republic University
Posted - 2009.04.14 16:29:00 - [54]
 

Edited by: Childstar on 14/04/2009 18:17:26
no commment


Lilith Velkor
Minmatar
Heretic Army
B A N E
Posted - 2009.04.14 16:32:00 - [55]
 

Edited by: Lilith Velkor on 14/04/2009 16:34:56
Originally by: Raimo
Originally by: Lilith Velkor
(...)



Like said Mega seems to be up there fitting Rails, I guess it still does a passable sniper and it's what a lot of people have trained. No warp disruptors or webs on there m8.


Meh, I guess I did already explain it but well...

"Weapons used" is completely unrealiable as a statistic, as short-range combatants will end up having either their guns, drones or ewar modules up there, it just depends on what module got activated last on a given target.

Long-range combatants are out of drone range and point/web range, so they will always have their respective guns on the killmail, hence the surprisingly high numbers for rails and even artillery.

Autocannons (esp. medium /light ones) have a rather good chance to end up on the killmail due to high RoF, regardless if they did a lot of damage or 0 and you scored damage only by drones for example.


The "ships used" on the other hand is reliable m8.

Childstar
Minmatar
Republic University
Posted - 2009.04.14 16:34:00 - [56]
 

Edited by: Childstar on 14/04/2009 18:17:10
no commment

Childstar
Minmatar
Republic University
Posted - 2009.04.14 17:00:00 - [57]
 

Edited by: Childstar on 14/04/2009 18:16:49


IF solo BS pvp was worth doing i suppose blasters would need more tracking but as it stands eve is just to well populated to allow solo BS to be worth using.

As such large blasters/blaster BS need a boost to help them to be better gang ships instead, and tracking is not really important in gang combat due to the prevalance of webs.

A increase in cpu on the mega, PG and maybr cpu on the hyperion and a increate in blaster dmg output in the 10-20km range would help a lot.

NightmareX
Nomads
Nulli Secunda
Posted - 2009.04.14 17:01:00 - [58]
 

Edited by: NightmareX on 14/04/2009 17:05:49
Originally by: Childstar



IF solo BS pvp was worth doing i suppose blasters would need more tracking but as it stands eve is just to well populated to allow solo BS to be worth using.

As such large blasters/blaster BS need a boost to help them to be better gang ships instead, and tracking is not really important in gang combat due to the prevalance of webs.

A increase in cpu on the mega, PG and maybr cpu on the hyperion and a increate in blaster dmg output in the 10-20km range would help a lot.

The only thing i agree on here is to increase the CPU on the Mega.

That's all it need. Nothing more.

And also, read carefully what this guy are saying to: http://www.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=1016708&page=65#1948

Childstar
Minmatar
Republic University
Posted - 2009.04.14 17:06:00 - [59]
 

Edited by: Childstar on 14/04/2009 18:16:33
no commment

NightmareX
Nomads
Nulli Secunda
Posted - 2009.04.14 17:08:00 - [60]
 

Edited by: NightmareX on 14/04/2009 17:08:23
Originally by: Childstar
Originally by: NightmareX

The only thing i agree on here is to increase the CPU on the Mega.

That's all it need. Nothing more.


You only know that because you were SHOWN in the other thread about the fitting issues on the mega as you were so clueless you did not know how to fit one, and even that took pages to get into your stupid head.

And the problem is you are so arrogant and stupid that you yet again are ignoring ppl who fly megas on TQ and again are trying to tell you things you do not understand.

Maybe you should STFU and let ppl educate you yet agaion instead of making stupid and clueless claims.

Yeah, but what does fitting issues have with Blasters to do?.

The Blasters are totally fine for what you use them for. But for the fitting issue, the Mega need more CPU.

And the problem with you are that you don't read replies like this: http://www.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=1016708&page=65#1948


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