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lofty29
Aliastra
Posted - 2009.04.04 16:48:00 - [31]
 

I'm not even going to argue with someone whose sole argument is 'BUT IT HAS SOME FORM OF DRM'.

Your last statement implies that you have never used steam. Maybe you should.

Crumplecorn
Gallente
Eve Cluster Explorations
Posted - 2009.04.04 17:07:00 - [32]
 

Originally by: lofty29
I'm not even going to argue with someone whose sole argument is 'BUT IT HAS CRIPPLING DRM'.
Fixed. And don't get me wrong. That's only one of a few arguments against Steam. It's merely the only relevant one.

Originally by: lofty29
Your last statement implies that you have never used steam. Maybe you should.
I made an offer.

Rawr Cristina
Caldari
Naqam
Posted - 2009.04.04 17:08:00 - [33]
 

Originally by: Crumplecorn
Steam without the DRM? Pretty obvious.


Steam IS the DRM. You login to an account and have access to your stuff, no matter where in the world you are. It's a service, you arn't forced to use it - Most of the games available can be bought seperately.

If you didn't need to login, Valve would have serious issues with people sharing accounts to get free games. You could purchase a bunch of games on 1 account and 20 different people could get it. Valve, IMO, are only using as much DRM as is neccessary; not to the point where it hurts legitimate users.

Crumplecorn
Gallente
Eve Cluster Explorations
Posted - 2009.04.04 17:28:00 - [34]
 

Originally by: Rawr Cristina
Steam IS the DRM.
Incorrect. Well, colloquially accepted to be true, but technically the benefits of Steam could exist without the DRM.

Originally by: Rawr Cristina
You login to an account and have access to your stuff, no matter where in the world you are. It's a service, you arn't forced to use it - Most of the games available can be bought seperately.
Highlighted the contradiction. Of course you can simply make the argument that its the method the developers chose to go with, and its their game so it's their way or the highway.

Originally by: Rawr Cristina
If you didn't need to login, Valve would have serious issues with people sharing accounts to get free games. You could purchase a bunch of games on 1 account and 20 different people could get it. Valve, IMO, are only using as much DRM as is neccessary;
Which would be terrible, because it would be so different from right now, where I don't have to buy the game at all to get it?

Originally by: Rawr Cristina
not to the point where it hurts legitimate users.
Laughing
And to think I'm the one who hasn't used it.

lofty29
Aliastra
Posted - 2009.04.04 17:33:00 - [35]
 

Crumplecorn seriously you're a ****ing idiot.

Just shut up and stop arguing ridiculous points, before the admins get ****ed off and wtfban you Neutral

Crumplecorn
Gallente
Eve Cluster Explorations
Posted - 2009.04.04 17:51:00 - [36]
 

Laughing

Asuka Smith
Gallente
Royal Black Watch Highlanders
Posted - 2009.04.04 20:02:00 - [37]
 

I for one am willing to see this argument through in the hopes of Crumple losing what sanity he has left and saying something actionable. Crumple, what is the crippling DRM on Steam? I have every Valve published title (EVERYTHING in the half life universe besides Azure Sheep which IMO does not count). I have never had a problem with my games somehow being de-authenticated or whatever nonsense you are concerned about. As if they would disable the titles that I paid for (I still have my credit card receipts even if that WERE to happen)

Let me run you through my regular play session, say, for Left4Dead.

1.) I boot up my computer.
2.) I start steam.
3.) I open the game.
4.) I start playing.

You can go ahead and swap L4D for any other game and it is the same four step process. If my internet is out the process changes slightly, let me show you the new step.

1.) I boot up my computer.
2.) I start steam.
2.A) I choose "start in offline mode" instead of "retry connection" when the option box pops up.
3.) I open the game.
4.) I start playing.

I have a feeling Crumple that you are the type of person who simply likes to argue, you pick an issue and dig in your heels. You just hate that Steam is popular, and so you rail against it. Let me guess, you also irrationally hate Twilight, Harry Potter, World of Warcraft, Nike, Halo, etc. I bet you hate ALL those things, and not for some high minded "Nike makes kids work in sweatshops!" type of reason but simply because everyone else likes them and you have to be contrary.

Kessiaan
Minmatar
Vagrants Inc
Posted - 2009.04.04 20:16:00 - [38]
 

Edited by: Kessiaan on 04/04/2009 20:18:11
I think the core issue that Mr. Crumplecorn has a problem with is that Steam, at its core, is a service.

When you buy a game on Steam, you buy a license to use the service. We all know nothing lasts forever so theoretically you can lose all your stuff at any time.

Personally, I've been using Steam for a couple years now and they've never shut down and I'm terrible about losing boxes and CDs. I don't even like the boxes because they tend to turn into clutter and I'm an ******* about being neat and tidy. So for me, it's a good deal since the time until Steam goes bellyup is a lot longer than the time until I lose a CD or throw it out because I haven't touched it in three months, only to regret it one day later.

I have yet to be annoyed by Steam, unlike every other form of DRM I've ever used. Like I said earlier, Steam's DRM actually adds value. Sure I can't sell on my games and I accept there's a one in ten zillion chance that on any given day I'll lose all my stuff but in return I have access to all my games from any computer I own that has a net connection (which is all of them), a much larger games library to chose from than you'll see at any games store these days (orders of magnitude larger), forums (which are great for troubleshooting problems, much better than most 'official' game forums, especially for indie titles), and no waiting for Amazon or whoever to ship the title once I buy it.

It's a great deal and honestly the direction games distribution needs to move in. I wouldn't be surprised if the next generation of console games uses similar store services instead of pushing millions of discs around - it's just better for everyone. There's no aftermarket and only one middleman, so publishers make more, and no discs to lose or get damaged, so gamers don't have to worry about physical media and crap getting lost in the mail or not being stocked.

As far as having to log in, I don't mind that. I've used services that didn't require you to log in and they *all* had stupid download and/or install limits and restrictions. I don't 'buy' anything from Amazon Unbox for this very reason (though I 'rent' movies regularly from them), it's just too much of a hassle to unregister all my stuff whenever Windows explodes and requires a complete reinstall than to just accept having to log in every time. It's not like I don't have net access anyway, and if I ever lose my net access games aren't something that'd be high on the agenda anyway.

ReaperOfSly
Gallente
Underworld Protection Agency
South Pole Dancers
Posted - 2009.04.04 20:19:00 - [39]
 

Steam has some DRM, yes. But it's invisible. You never get bothered by it, there are no install limits, you can play your games on any computer you see fit. And if you don't have an internet connection, it's no problem because you can start Steam in offline mode and play anyway (assuming you've already downloaded the game files of course). The main complaint (and speaking for myself, the only complaint) about DRM such as that employed by EA is that it inconveniences legitimate customers. Steam doesn't do this.

Reiisha
Veto Corp
Posted - 2009.04.04 20:50:00 - [40]
 

Crumplecorn is what's called a Troll.

He will never, ever admit that anything in his opinion might possible be wrong. I don't see how arguing with him is helping anyone, obviously he has made up his mind and tries to force his views on anyone who dares argue with him.


I for one think that Steam will save the game industry from itself. Everyone is a winner. The developers have less middlemen to worry about and can make a bit more money while maybe even selling less copies. Newell presented some numbers on Steam which promise some VERY nice changes in the future, in particular, prices may go down (finally) for all games on the platform, at least those without a physical counterpart. The industry can be creative while still being a profitable business - everyone is a winner.

I won't object to Steam's DRM. I have the game, i can play it anywhere i want, i can show it to friends or even "sell" it to them if i want, let them borrow it for a while.... If anyone doesn't like that, they shouldn't do it. And if Crumplecorn is so convinced of his ideas, i'd suggest he actually does something to put them into action rather than complain about something while hardly giving any concrete arguments whatsoever("STEAM HAS DRM" doesnt count, in all his posts he hasnt even explained what exactly it is and does, just alluding that it's there and nothing else).

Crumplecorn
Gallente
Eve Cluster Explorations
Posted - 2009.04.04 20:54:00 - [41]
 

Edited by: Crumplecorn on 04/04/2009 21:06:28
Originally by: Asuka Smith
I have a feeling Crumple that you are the type of person who simply likes to argue
[...]
I for one am willing to see this argument through in the hopes of Crumple losing what sanity he has left and saying something actionable.

Order reversed for emphasis. Also, good luck.
Originally by: Asuka Smith
Crumple, what is the crippling DRM on Steam?
Server goes away, game stops working. Unless you don't consider that 'crippled'.


Originally by: Kessiaan
I think the core issue that Mr. Crumplecorn has a problem with is that Steam, at its core, is a service.
An accurate summation of my main issue with it.
Originally by: Kessiaan
Like I said earlier, Steam's DRM actually adds value.
And I believe I pointed out then that it isn't the DRM which does that.
Originally by: Kessiaan
I like Steam
How nice for you.
Originally by: Kessiaan
It's a great deal and honestly the direction games distribution needs to move in.
This would be a disaster. If you care so little about the games you play that you give up on them shortly afterwards, that's fine, but that doesn't mean it would be a good thing for the same thing to be forced on the rest of us.
Originally by: Kessiaan
I wouldn't be surprised if the next generation of console games uses similar store services instead of pushing millions of discs around - it's just better for everyone.
Ah, well, this is the thing isn't? Piracy can protect people from the failings of Steam (as has been pointed out even by Steam proponents) - but not on consoles. Piracy is a much more difficult deal with those. A game disappears on a console, it is gone.
As for "better for everyone" - just who are you to speak for everyone? I can assure you that there are people other than me who actually give a damn about games for whom this is not better, and I'd wager those employed in the aftermarket would concur.



Originally by: ReaperOfSly
And if you don't have an internet connection, it's no problem because you can start Steam in offline mode and play anyway (assuming you've already downloaded the game files of course).
/facepalm
I so love the way Steam users are able to make a statement, put something within parentheses which contradicts it, and consider the whole true. You are right that Steam isn't inconvenient (assuming an Internet connection), I never argued that it was, it's convenience it its selling point after all.



Originally by: Reiisha
stuff
Accusation of troll to original argument - Check
Equating fact and opinion - Check
Assertion that chosen side both correct and optimal - Check
Complaining about complaining on a forum on a forum - Check

Verdict - Troll

ReaperOfSly
Gallente
Underworld Protection Agency
South Pole Dancers
Posted - 2009.04.04 21:31:00 - [42]
 

Originally by: Crumplecorn
Originally by: ReaperOfSly
And if you don't have an internet connection, it's no problem because you can start Steam in offline mode and play anyway (assuming you've already downloaded the game files of course).
/facepalm
I so love the way Steam users are able to make a statement, put something within parentheses which contradicts it, and consider the whole true. You are right that Steam isn't inconvenient (assuming an Internet connection), I never argued that it was, it's convenience it its selling point after all.


Well of course you need a bloody connection to download the files in the first place. Steam is an INTERNET distribution method for crying out loud! That's what it's marketed as, and it does it well. Shock horror, you also need a connection to navigate to the web page to buy the game!!! How awful! But once you have the game files, there's nothing to stop you playing it offline. You can even copy the game files manually to another computer so you don't have to download them again. I have done this.

Asuka Smith
Gallente
Royal Black Watch Highlanders
Posted - 2009.04.04 21:36:00 - [43]
 

Edited by: Asuka Smith on 04/04/2009 21:37:03
Crumple, you ought to use Steam before you continue to rag on it.

You realize that even if the servers for Steam go down I can still play everything that I have already, I just will not be able to re-download them? (which would indeed suck as far as reformatting goes, but I am sure I could find a way around it, I am clever)

EDIT: And I think the odds of losing my discs, damaging my discs, having a house fire, having a robbery, etc. are magnitudes higher than the Steam servers going down without providing me a way to keep my stuff.

Xen Gin
Silurian Operations
Posted - 2009.04.04 22:04:00 - [44]
 

Edited by: Xen Gin on 04/04/2009 22:04:10
I would also like to point out, that Valve said that if they ever had to shut down the Steam service, the last thing to do would be to release a patch to unlock all the games, and you know what, I believe them. If EA had said that, I'd still be laughing to this day!

Reiisha
Veto Corp
Posted - 2009.04.04 22:53:00 - [45]
 

Originally by: Xen Gin
Edited by: Xen Gin on 04/04/2009 22:04:10
I would also like to point out, that Valve said that if they ever had to shut down the Steam service, the last thing to do would be to release a patch to unlock all the games, and you know what, I believe them. If EA had said that, I'd still be laughing to this day!


That's not good enough, since everyone knows that anyone who says anything positive is automatically a liar. At least, according to "some" people.

Crumplecorn
Gallente
Eve Cluster Explorations
Posted - 2009.04.04 23:38:00 - [46]
 

Originally by: ReaperOfSly
Well of course you need a bloody connection to download the files in the first place. Steam is an INTERNET distribution method for crying out loud!
Tell that to people who bought Half-Life 2 at retail.

Regardless, do you really think Steam is going to stay in its current position? I would count the argument that Steam will eventually encroach on physical distribution (either by replacing it or being tied in with it as in the case of HL2) as a slippery slope fallacy, except that in all the cases where it has been brought up, Steam proponents agree that digital distribution has to potential to replace physical distribution.

While Steam is optional, yes the current inconvenience of needing an Internet connection is basically a non-issue - just buy it at a shop instead. But look ahead a little.


Originally by: Asuka Smith
Crumple, you ought to use Steam before you continue to rag on it.

You realize that even if the servers for Steam go down I can still play everything that I have already, I just will not be able to re-download them? (which would indeed suck as far as reformatting goes, but I am sure I could find a way around it, I am clever)
What insight would this give me, and yes I do realize that.

Originally by: Asuka Smith
EDIT: And I think the odds of losing my discs, damaging my discs, having a house fire, having a robbery, etc. are magnitudes higher than the Steam servers going down without providing me a way to keep my stuff.
Perhaps, if any DD service is going to last, it's going to be Steam.
But, it will take years to find out, and they could avoid the risk completely by removing server-side authentication, as EA (!) are apparently going to do.
And, ironically, even if Steam does free your games, with no more ability to download them you'll be relying on... physical copies.

Imagine if Steam was DRM free and was tied in with physical copies of the games... you buy the game, you get a physical copy and the ability to download it endlessly, and if one method disappears, you still have the other. The best of both worlds. But, why have that when you can accept a lesser, DRM'd service, eh?


Originally by: Xen Gin
I would also like to point out, that Valve said that if they ever had to shut down the Steam service, the last thing to do would be to release a patch to unlock all the games, and you know what, I believe them. If EA had said that, I'd still be laughing to this day!
I believe the intention too. Whether the intention and/or ability will still be there when Steam eventually dies...

Taedrin
Gallente
Kushan Industrial
Posted - 2009.04.04 23:47:00 - [47]
 

Edited by: Taedrin on 04/04/2009 23:57:00
Edited by: Taedrin on 04/04/2009 23:49:28
Originally by: Xen Gin
Edited by: Xen Gin on 04/04/2009 22:04:10
I would also like to point out, that Valve said that if they ever had to shut down the Steam service, the last thing to do would be to release a patch to unlock all the games, and you know what, I believe them. If EA had said that, I'd still be laughing to this day!


Can you find a link where they make this claim? I seriously doubt that Valve would be able to do this, even if they wanted to. The reason why? Because when a company goes out of business, they are under obligation to pay it's creditors as much as possible. And unfortunately, steam is probably worth a LOT more money to Vavle's creditors with the DRM intact instead of the DRM stripped away. As such, if Valve ever DOES go bankrupt, the creditors involved will try to legally coerce Valve into NOT unlocking the games. The games will then be sold off to dozens of different competing corporations who will refuse to collaborate with each other to get steam up and running again.

Instead what you will have is several dozen different variations of Steam which you will then need in order to keep playing your games.

And as for the people who said that Steam doesn't have any competition, this is blatantly false. There are PLENTY of other digital delivery systems: Impulse (Notable for Sins of a Solar Empire and possibly Supreme Commander), Digital Locker, Direct2Drive and probably many others. The company behind Impulse (Stardock) actually claims that they started offering special weekend deals before Steam, and that it was their competition that drove Valve to start doing that.

Another thing to take notice of, is that Sins of a Solar Empire apparently has no DRM. Once you download the game, you can play it regardless of whether or not you've "authenticated" it or not. You can also apparently copy it to another computer and play it as is too. This thoroughly disproves that Steam and DRM can't be separated. They can, and it is possible to make a profit off of it too.

As for whether or not DRM is good or bad for business, there is contradicting evidence. Stardock claims that the lack of DRM was a major contribution to the huge popularity of Sins of a Solar Empire. However, the makers of World of Goo claims that over 90% of the game's users have pirated the game (they figure this out by comparing the number of copies they have sold with the number of copies of the game which have uploaded data to their leader board). Sins of a Solar Empire is evidence that an obscure company can become very wealthy without DRM, while World of Goo shows that a lack of DRM drastically increases the amount of piracy. A corporation would claim that there are more people out there who would buy the game if it were impossible to pirate it than people who would refuse to buy the game just because it has DRM.

As a final note, to the people who say that Steam is 100% better than retail, you can sell a retail game after you are done with it - but you can't do the same thing with a game you downloaded from steam.

EDIT: Forgot to clarify that World of Goo also supposedly has no DRM what-so-ever.
EDIT2: Crumplecorn, are you by chance a fan of the Free Software Foundation and/or GNU?

Crumplecorn
Gallente
Eve Cluster Explorations
Posted - 2009.04.05 00:22:00 - [48]
 

Originally by: Taedrin
Another thing to take notice of, is that Sins of a Solar Empire apparently has no DRM. Once you download the game, you can play it regardless of whether or not you've "authenticated" it or not. You can also apparently copy it to another computer and play it as is too. This thoroughly disproves that Steam and DRM can't be separated. They can, and it is possible to make a profit off of it too.
To clarify this, Sins itself has no DRM of any kind, even local CD-checking AFAIK, though the updates and expansions can only be acquired via Impulse. Still annoying, as all the new features will die with Impulse, but certainly a major step up from Steam, since the basic game is completely DRM free and not tied to anything.

Originally by: Taedrin
Crumplecorn, are you by chance a fan of the Free Software Foundation and/or GNU?
Indeed I am, while I mostly use closed-source software myself (being a Windows user), the (one and only piece of) software I have sold is GPL'd.

Xen Gin
Silurian Operations
Posted - 2009.04.05 00:27:00 - [49]
 

Originally by: Taedrin
...searching questions...


I think I remember seeing it in a Steam forum thread by a member of Valve. I have currently been unable to locate the thread.

I will try later tomorrow, when I've stopped drinking.

Asuka Smith
Gallente
Royal Black Watch Highlanders
Posted - 2009.04.05 04:30:00 - [50]
 

Originally by: Crumplecorn


Originally by: Asuka Smith
EDIT: And I think the odds of losing my discs, damaging my discs, having a house fire, having a robbery, etc. are magnitudes higher than the Steam servers going down without providing me a way to keep my stuff.
Perhaps, if any DD service is going to last, it's going to be Steam.
But, it will take years to find out, and they could avoid the risk completely by removing server-side authentication, as EA (!) are apparently going to do.
And, ironically, even if Steam does free your games, with no more ability to download them you'll be relying on... physical copies.

Imagine if Steam was DRM free and was tied in with physical copies of the games... you buy the game, you get a physical copy and the ability to download it endlessly, and if one method disappears, you still have the other. The best of both worlds. But, why have that when you can accept a lesser, DRM'd service, eh?


Because without some sort of DRM Valve would not be financially viable and they would stop making games full stop when they went bankrupt (or reduced quality as they could not afford their glacial development cycle any more). Software piracy costs a lot of companies a lot of money, I am against draconian DRM that hurts the legitimate consumer (Like how iTunes does it, AWFUL!), but steam does not harm the legitimate consumer and the value added mitigates the minor inconvenience of having to have the internet one time for five minutes ever.

Da Death
Minmatar
Relentless Enterprises
Ore Federation
Posted - 2009.04.05 09:12:00 - [51]
 

DRM punishes the wrong people. hacker/crackerz remove it anyways and only peeps who buy it get punished by restrictions


DRM 4TL!

Yes, I am anti DRM. Ridiculous prices just 'shout' for protection. Adjust your prices and everyone will pay for it.

Asuka Smith
Gallente
Royal Black Watch Highlanders
Posted - 2009.04.05 09:29:00 - [52]
 

Not EVERY game should cost $50, but most should. You should see the budget that goes into a game like HL2 for example, that game took almost seven years!

Xen Gin
Silurian Operations
Posted - 2009.04.05 11:07:00 - [53]
 

Originally by: Asuka Smith
Not EVERY game should cost $50, but most should. You should see the budget that goes into a game like HL2 for example, that game took almost seven years!


Some games are worth that price tag, ie HL2, but some aren't worth the plastic they are written onto.

Cpt Placeholder
Posted - 2009.04.05 12:28:00 - [54]
 

I just witnessed Steam at it's launch for a while and I know it was a horrible piece of crap.
No matter how convenient it has become, Steam users will always be at the mercy of Valve, and I'm sure Valve already dumps every responsibility in their subscriber agreement and says "we can do what the hell ever we want".

I sure remember when Valve put ads in Counter-Strike...

Rawr Cristina
Caldari
Naqam
Posted - 2009.04.05 13:04:00 - [55]
 

Originally by: Crumplecorn
Sins itself has no DRM of any kind, even local CD-checking AFAIK


Last I played, you -need- a serial key (tied to an account) if you want to play Sins online. There's no way around that; if you don't have a valid copy of the game, no internet games for you Neutral

That's about the same kind of 'DRM' found in Steam. Only a pain if don't like paying for things in the first place.

Asuka Smith
Gallente
Royal Black Watch Highlanders
Posted - 2009.04.05 23:13:00 - [56]
 

Originally by: Cpt Placeholder
I just witnessed Steam at it's launch for a while and I know it was a horrible piece of crap.
No matter how convenient it has become, Steam users will always be at the mercy of Valve, and I'm sure Valve already dumps every responsibility in their subscriber agreement and says "we can do what the hell ever we want".

I sure remember when Valve put ads in Counter-Strike...


What ads? (Also, I agree at launch steam was crap but it has come VERY far)

overcorpse
Posted - 2009.04.05 23:37:00 - [57]
 

Originally by: Asuka Smith


I love to pirate games, I do it all the time. I can even pirate steam games it is not hard. So I am not sure what your problem is, you just seem to still be bitter that you have to play CS on Steam with a riot shield instead of 1.5 on WON or something.




The ****ing irony in you lot makes my head spin.On the one hand you boast how you love to pirate games,Then ***** and moan when companies try and stop the aforementioned piracy.You couldnt make it up.

Taedrin
Gallente
Kushan Industrial
Posted - 2009.04.05 23:39:00 - [58]
 

Originally by: Rawr Cristina
Originally by: Crumplecorn
Sins itself has no DRM of any kind, even local CD-checking AFAIK


Last I played, you -need- a serial key (tied to an account) if you want to play Sins online. There's no way around that; if you don't have a valid copy of the game, no internet games for you Neutral

That's about the same kind of 'DRM' found in Steam. Only a pain if don't like paying for things in the first place.


Not quite true. IIRC, Steam must be running in order to play a game from Steam. Sins does not require Impulse to be running when you play it. The online play requires that the game be validated by the servers a'la battle.net style. I suppose you could argue that it's DRM, but it definitely isn't any form of SecuROM, and definitely not Steam.

Cpt Placeholder
Posted - 2009.04.05 23:46:00 - [59]
 


Asuka Smith
Gallente
Royal Black Watch Highlanders
Posted - 2009.04.06 00:26:00 - [60]
 

Originally by: Cpt Placeholder
Originally by: Asuka Smith
What ads?


http://inside.lanothon.org/2007/03/counter-strike-16-ads-debate.html


are you certain that those ads are not generated by a given server rather than by Valve? Because I frequently see ads for whichever clan runs the server I am on, so I always assumed it was just that clan doing it.


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