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Bellum Eternus
Gallente
The Scope
Posted - 2009.03.29 18:57:00 - [1]
 

With a relatively small crew (5-6 guys) we're able to fully exploit a Tier 5 wormhole in an afternoon. All the Ladar, Radar and Magnetometric sites run completely through and salvaged, and all of the anomalies run as well. Of course, we ignore grav sites as they're simply not worth the cargo space to haul the garbage ore out.

This would be all well and good if the respawn rate for the sites were every 12 or even 24 hours, but as it sits now we're going on 3+ days with nothing respawning in our base w-space system. Now we've taken to venturing into neighboring w-space systems to exploit the resources there, but generally they end up being crappy Tier2/Tier3 systems.

This is a really lousy return on our time and effort investing in w-space operations. We could all very easily be making more ISK/hour risk free in high sec space.

W-Space isn't better just because it's 'more fun' than other space. It's the same gameplay, with added risk. That's perfectly acceptable. I'd just like to get *paid* for the added risk. 'Fun' doesn't count.

The productivity rates of small groups occupying w-space is terrible. So much downtime, nothing to do to keep occupied. I've been considering another approach- being very mobile and just hopping from one w-space system to the next, burning through whatever content is there and then on to the next one, but this presents too many problems and too much risk for too little end results. We still end up spending too much time simply searching out what little content there is to pursue, and when we find something, we're done with it inside of 15 minutes and then it's on to the next w-space system.

These systems are quite unlike 0.0 systems in that they don't have resources that can be exploited 24 hours a day. You can't mine more than a few sites (gas clouds) before they're gone. There is no constant supply of sleeper NPCs to kill.

Now, I don't want w-space to be 'easy mode', and I don't expect it to be a copy of what is available in 0.0 either (resource wise), but I do expect w-space to have enough content in it to keep a *very* small group of players occupied 24/7. Otherwise what you're going to see (already seeing) is vast tracks of empty space with nobody in them because they're all milked dry of any sort of resource. Are there people to kill in w-space? Sure there are. Cloaked CovOps pilots looking for resources and not finding any. Why bring in other ships when there is nothing to bring them in for?

My buddies and I saddled up for a grand adventure and all we have netted so far is some little fish and an old shoe. And as an aside- the Tier6 stuff, still not worth the rewards. The ISK per player is less than the Tier5 space once you consider the group size required to run the sites and how much ISK you're getting out of the loot.

Zeba
Minmatar
Honourable East India Trading Company
Posted - 2009.03.29 19:11:00 - [2]
 

Possibly why they devs kept hinting that yes you can set up a permanent or at least long term presence in a wormhole system but good luck making it economically viable. Remember there are 2500 systems out there so it looks like nomadic fleets are going to be the norm. Eat up one systems sites then go to the next one till you are all dead or eventually find the way out with cargoholds filled with loot.

Valeronx
Celestial Horizon Corp.
Fallen Angels Alliance
Posted - 2009.03.29 19:12:00 - [3]
 

Just to be clear, your saying that when you entered the WH system and there were ( just for instance ) 5 anomalies and 20 signatures.

You ran the 5 anomalies and the 7 sigs that were not Grav sites, leaving 13 grav sigs alone. Now after 3 days there are still just the 13 Grav sites ? It does seem that something should have re-spawned in that time

.

Zeba
Minmatar
Honourable East India Trading Company
Posted - 2009.03.29 19:14:00 - [4]
 

Another possiblity is that your might have to spawn all the sites regardless of type to get new sites to spawn. Try going to each grav site to activate them so they can expire and see if new stuff pops up.

Anglo
Minmatar
Astral Mexicans
Posted - 2009.03.29 19:15:00 - [5]
 

same prop we have! nothing but grac **** to be found.. however i think its a bug.. it started after the last patch... seem like it made the sleepers go to sleep... cause we havent found a single site beside grav ever since.!

Anglo
Minmatar
Astral Mexicans
Posted - 2009.03.29 19:17:00 - [6]
 

ps we actually mined the grav sites out.. and they respawn... or should i say change position.. when we been in a belt all day then all of asudden its gone and we rescan... so no you do not have to kill it all... its the good sites that does not respawn or atleast new ones isent comming! maybe we scared the sleepers DOH i thought they were BADASS..

Turiel Demon
Minmatar
Celtic industries
Posted - 2009.03.29 19:19:00 - [7]
 

Exactly the same here, we've got a POS in a class 4, which when entered had 15 or so sites, and a class 5 next door. Since then we've had only 1 exit WH at a time, 10 times out of 11 leading to a class 1/2 system, and we're down to 9 sites, all grav, all utterly pointless; it wouldn't be too bad except that half the time the WH won't let our BS through to even exploit neighbour-of-neighbour w space.

Right now it's a 50/50 split in corp as to abandoning WH's altogether.

Bellum Eternus
Gallente
The Scope
Posted - 2009.03.29 19:20:00 - [8]
 

Originally by: Valeronx
Just to be clear, your saying that when you entered the WH system and there were ( just for instance ) 5 anomalies and 20 signatures.

You ran the 5 anomalies and the 7 sigs that were not Grav sites, leaving 13 grav sigs alone. Now after 3 days there are still just the 13 Grav sites ? It does seem that something should have re-spawned in that time

.


Yes. We've had a Tier5 system locked down tight for the better part of two weeks now, and we've crushed every available resource, besides the grav sites. Nothing is respawning, and when we go to next door w-space systems and farm those we sometimes have the wormholes up for more than 24 hours, and nothing respawns in them either.

Now, if CCP wants T3 stuff to be 'cheap', this is totally the wrong way to do it. The material output so far has been *really* bad, and if that wasn't the worst part, the sheer boredom is just unbearable. Since there is no clonejumping, a LOT of us are spending time on SISI tinkering with stuff because there's simply nothing to do and we have all of our characters committed to w-space. It's really lame. To the point of just getting rid of the whole thing and going back to k-space.

Malcanis
Caldari
Vanishing Point.
The Initiative.
Posted - 2009.03.29 19:20:00 - [9]
 

Originally by: Valeronx
Just to be clear, your saying that when you entered the WH system and there were ( just for instance ) 5 anomalies and 20 signatures.

You ran the 5 anomalies and the 7 sigs that were not Grav sites, leaving 13 grav sigs alone. Now after 3 days there are still just the 13 Grav sites ? It does seem that something should have re-spawned in that time

.


I'm sure that this will be fixed even faster that the drone space asteroids!

Bellum Eternus
Gallente
The Scope
Posted - 2009.03.29 19:21:00 - [10]
 

Originally by: Turiel Demon
Exactly the same here, we've got a POS in a class 4, which when entered had 15 or so sites, and a class 5 next door. Since then we've had only 1 exit WH at a time, 10 times out of 11 leading to a class 1/2 system, and we're down to 9 sites, all grav, all utterly pointless; it wouldn't be too bad except that half the time the WH won't let our BS through to even exploit neighbour-of-neighbour w space.

Right now it's a 50/50 split in corp as to abandoning WH's altogether.


Exactly.

Zeba
Minmatar
Honourable East India Trading Company
Posted - 2009.03.29 19:28:00 - [11]
 

Originally by: Anglo
ps we actually mined the grav sites out.. and they respawn... or should i say change position.. when we been in a belt all day then all of asudden its gone and we rescan... so no you do not have to kill it all... its the good sites that does not respawn or atleast new ones isent comming! maybe we scared the sleepers DOH i thought they were BADASS..
Ah in that case its probably a bug in the respawn table and will get fixed if enough people petition it. Its a good thing I decided to wait a bit till mounting an expedition to wh space as the majority of preconceptions about it seem to have proven false. ugh

Kahega Amielden
Minmatar Ship Construction Services
Ushra'Khan
Posted - 2009.03.29 19:30:00 - [12]
 

Edited by: Kahega Amielden on 29/03/2009 19:31:26
Quote:
This is a really lousy return on our time and effort investing in w-space operations. We could all very easily be making more ISK/hour risk free in high sec space.


Indication that hisec is overpowered, not that w-space is borked.


Also...hint: You can fly ships other than BS. Also, you can offline any plates you may have to lower your mass.

Although if w-space respawning is bugged then naturally it should be fixed.

Anglo
Minmatar
Astral Mexicans
Posted - 2009.03.29 19:37:00 - [13]
 

well ccp better fix this... its very borring atm... VERY!

JfG D00MSAYER
Caldari
Posted - 2009.03.29 19:53:00 - [14]
 

We have exactly the same problem.

Especially the gravimetric sites are broken/useless. The ore itself isnt that good. Add the hauling to get it reprocessed or even worse a refining array that uses nearly all of your CPU on the tower.

When we entered and set up our pos we had 2 gravimetrics called "unexceptional frontier deposits" at the outer planet (V). These despawned after 4 days and came back at planet IV.
2 of us mined one of them and it respawned at planet III. After mining the other one at planet IV it respawned at planet III too Shocked

Dont know how the other gravimetrics (we have a total of 9) behaved so far exactly but as far as i can see i really dont want to know Rolling Eyes
If u want to break it down to risk/effort to reward you are still better off mining in highsec or running lvl4s Rolling Eyes

Turiel Demon
Minmatar
Celtic industries
Posted - 2009.03.29 20:15:00 - [15]
 

I think it wouldn't be so bad if things like 'Unusual Core Deposit' and similar grav sites which are actually moderately tough to track down, and as such time consuming, would actually produce more ISK/h than mining veldspar in empire before annoyances of logistics were taken into account, let alone calculating those aspects in to it.

Roemy Schneider
Vanishing Point.
Posted - 2009.03.29 20:51:00 - [16]
 

one can go go belt-ratting in the grav sites, basically just like known space :o

Zeba
Minmatar
Honourable East India Trading Company
Posted - 2009.03.29 20:52:00 - [17]
 

Originally by: Roemy Schneider
one can go go belt-ratting in the grav sites, basically just like known space :o
With sleeper rats?

harogen
Debitum Naturae
Posted - 2009.03.29 20:54:00 - [18]
 

Few things,

For starters, exploration sites respawn from a pool of choices every 72 hours. It was that way long before wormhole space. Secondly, setup in deadly space (tier 6) and chance are each day new wormholes will open into tier 4 and 5. True you won't be able to do much in your own space, but think of it as more of a basing point rather than a home.

harogen
Debitum Naturae
Posted - 2009.03.29 20:55:00 - [19]
 

Originally by: Roemy Schneider
one can go go belt-ratting in the grav sites, basically just like known space :o


Depends on what you want, only a few Core Grav sites are worth doing this in, and its a one shot type thing since they don't respawn.

Ashina Sito
Gallente
Center for Advanced Studies
Posted - 2009.03.29 20:56:00 - [20]
 

Originally by: Zeba
Possibly why they devs kept hinting that yes you can set up a permanent or at least long term presence in a wormhole system but good luck making it economically viable.


Gonna repost this. Mabe your problem is your doing it wrong.

Don't camp a WH system. Camp k-space looking for WH systems. Farm what comes up and leave. Move to the next one.

Jana Clant
New Dawn Corp
New Eden Research.
Posted - 2009.03.29 21:22:00 - [21]
 

Edited by: Jana Clant on 29/03/2009 21:23:23
Originally by: Ashina Sito
Originally by: Zeba
Possibly why they devs kept hinting that yes you can set up a permanent or at least long term presence in a wormhole system but good luck making it economically viable.


Gonna repost this. Mabe your problem is your doing it wrong.

Don't camp a WH system. Camp k-space looking for WH systems. Farm what comes up and leave. Move to the next one.


This.

Now if grav sites were less common. Deep space probes were great for this, as they could easily identify site types even at low strength, before CCP nerfed them into oblivion. Nowadays your scan prober spends 80% of his time chasing useless sites around and getting frustrated.

Turiel Demon
Minmatar
Celtic industries
Posted - 2009.03.29 21:42:00 - [22]
 

I'm wondering if it would be any better if there were more WHs linking all the systems. I don't get why W-space needs to be so difficult to get around in.

I've got limited experience so far but it seems that the higher the quality W-space the lower the number of WHs in them. Low qualities, reachable from empire have 2 or 3 pretty much invariably, while the tier4 we've been in for the last week and a bit hasn't had more than 1 WH at a time. If each tier4-6 had at minimum 2 WHs (preferably 3, and if then at least 2 of those to other W-space systems), I don't think this would be a problem... any downsides?

Kahega Amielden
Minmatar Ship Construction Services
Ushra'Khan
Posted - 2009.03.29 21:51:00 - [23]
 

Quote:
Don't camp a WH system. Camp k-space looking for WH systems. Farm what comes up and leave. Move to the next one.


this too


Quote:
I've got limited experience so far but it seems that the higher the quality W-space the lower the number of WHs in them. Low qualities, reachable from empire have 2 or 3 pretty much invariably, while the tier4 we've been in for the last week and a bit hasn't had more than 1 WH at a time. If each tier4-6 had at minimum 2 WHs (preferably 3, and if then at least 2 of those to other W-space systems), I don't think this would be a problem... any downsides?


If this is true and not just bad luck on your part, I agree.

Khlitouris RegusII
Posted - 2009.03.29 22:17:00 - [24]
 

CCP did say they had improved wormhole npc's ai maybe the npc's have decided it's not economically viable for them to keep respawning in a system camped by pod pilots and they all decided to relocate to a less busy system.

Polly Prissypantz
Dingleberry Appreciation Society
Posted - 2009.03.30 07:25:00 - [25]
 

Originally by: Khlitouris RegusII
CCP did say they had improved wormhole npc's ai maybe the npc's have decided it's not economically viable for them to keep respawning in a system camped by pod pilots and they all decided to relocate to a less busy system.

So you're saying the rats are smarter than Motsu mission runners?

Cors
It's A Trap
It's A Trap Alliance
Posted - 2009.03.30 07:32:00 - [26]
 

My corp gave up after a week and a half. It just as not worth the down time. Even moveing from system to sytem, it just was not worth the time spent. You spend half your time just waiting around. Either waiting till your team gets online so we can all move to the next system, or waiting while the probers do their thing.

Rivqua
Caldari
Omega Wing
Snatch Victory
Posted - 2009.03.30 07:50:00 - [27]
 

Originally by: Bellum Eternus
With a relatively small crew (5-6 guys) we're able to fully exploit a Tier 5 wormhole in an afternoon. All the Ladar, Radar and Magnetometric sites run completely through and salvaged, and all of the anomalies run as well. Of course, we ignore grav sites as they're simply not worth the cargo space to haul the garbage ore out.

This would be all well and good if the respawn rate for the sites were every 12 or even 24 hours, but as it sits now we're going on 3+ days with nothing respawning in our base w-space system. Now we've taken to venturing into neighboring w-space systems to exploit the resources there, but generally they end up being crappy Tier2/Tier3 systems.

This is a really lousy return on our time and effort investing in w-space operations. We could all very easily be making more ISK/hour risk free in high sec space.

W-Space isn't better just because it's 'more fun' than other space. It's the same gameplay, with added risk. That's perfectly acceptable. I'd just like to get *paid* for the added risk. 'Fun' doesn't count.

The productivity rates of small groups occupying w-space is terrible. So much downtime, nothing to do to keep occupied. I've been considering another approach- being very mobile and just hopping from one w-space system to the next, burning through whatever content is there and then on to the next one, but this presents too many problems and too much risk for too little end results. We still end up spending too much time simply searching out what little content there is to pursue, and when we find something, we're done with it inside of 15 minutes and then it's on to the next w-space system.

These systems are quite unlike 0.0 systems in that they don't have resources that can be exploited 24 hours a day. You can't mine more than a few sites (gas clouds) before they're gone. There is no constant supply of sleeper NPCs to kill.

Now, I don't want w-space to be 'easy mode', and I don't expect it to be a copy of what is available in 0.0 either (resource wise), but I do expect w-space to have enough content in it to keep a *very* small group of players occupied 24/7. Otherwise what you're going to see (already seeing) is vast tracks of empty space with nobody in them because they're all milked dry of any sort of resource. Are there people to kill in w-space? Sure there are. Cloaked CovOps pilots looking for resources and not finding any. Why bring in other ships when there is nothing to bring them in for?

My buddies and I saddled up for a grand adventure and all we have netted so far is some little fish and an old shoe. And as an aside- the Tier6 stuff, still not worth the rewards. The ISK per player is less than the Tier5 space once you consider the group size required to run the sites and how much ISK you're getting out of the loot.


They work like plexes in K-Space, you kill them, they respawn in a different system. Your biggest problem is that noone else is clearing Level 5s at the same rate you are, so when they respawn somewhere else, they are not being killed of, so they respawn elswhere again, possibly in your system. I am pretty confident that there is a very constant amount of Class-5 plexes out there (anomalies/radar/mag/grav), but they move around the systems as people finisht them off. So when your cov ops finds you one Class 5 and your fleet start clearing it, he should immidiately start looking for the next system, and hopefully be done finding it by the time you've cleared it.

So in conclusion, working as intended, you need to move around, WH systems can be colonized for PoS ops and such, but not for profitability in sleepers, not until alot more peeps are running them, so you get a constant respawn rate based on plexes being killed of outside your system.

Xalabaster
Posted - 2009.03.30 07:56:00 - [28]
 

Originally by: Ashina Sito
Originally by: Zeba
Possibly why they devs kept hinting that yes you can set up a permanent or at least long term presence in a wormhole system but good luck making it economically viable.


Gonna repost this. Mabe your problem is your doing it wrong.

Don't camp a WH system. Camp k-space looking for WH systems. Farm what comes up and leave. Move to the next one.


This. What is so difficult to understanding the core concept of W-Space? That space is NOT meant to be occupied for a long time therefore the low respawn rate. This is not nullsec nor highsec space.

If you ask me, w-space is perfectly balanced the way it is. Reading OPs post, they didnt find yet what makes WHs truly profitable...

Not happy with it? Then W-Space exploration and occupation is not for you... Let us take care of it, thank you! :0)

Cailais
Amarr
Nasty Pope Holding Corp
Talocan United
Posted - 2009.03.30 08:17:00 - [29]
 

W Space is all about exploration - not settlement - and that means you need to move location. All the tools required to do so exist, its simply a matter of applying those tools.

Quote:
We could all very easily be making more ISK/hour risk free in high sec space.


This is always the issue for any activity in EVE. High Sec is the 'standard' by which any form of static grinding is judged. It's not much fun, but long term its profitable.

W Space is better judged as a 'expeditionary' element of game play - A short term activity you can do with your gang in an afternoon rather than a stable ISK printing grind.

Fix high sec and the issues surrounding the the 'worth' of .0, Low Sec and W space all disappear.

C.


Crumplecorn
Gallente
Eve Cluster Explorations
Posted - 2009.03.30 08:42:00 - [30]
 

Originally by: Cailais
Fix high sec and the issues surrounding the the 'worth' of .0, Low Sec and W space all disappear.
QFT


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