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Prince Spiderman
Posted - 2009.03.13 12:05:00 - [1]
 

Edited by: Prince Spiderman on 13/03/2009 12:05:37
I was playing for a few hours with that new probe system.

At the first glance it looks nice at the second view after trying it I came to the conclusion - with my actual knowlegde - that it is absolutely useless to probe out eg. flashers hiding. If they move around, just forget it.

Everytime I tried it took far too long compared to the former system. I never got any result under 10-15 minutes.
Moving and scaling the spheres is just waste of time for an effecient hunt and finally it was getting useless to me.

And actually there's one strange thing:
you get a list of eg. 10 ships but no info about the shiptype in the list till you get to a closer result.
On the other side you can define a filter for eg. Battleship if you looking for a specific type and this will filter the list.
So I ask now: why not immediately showing the ship type in the list if setting a filter shows it to me finally?!

Actually this probe system needs some speed improvements. Otherwise it's nice gadget for nerds.

My 2 probes on that!

Alfons Richthofen
Posted - 2009.03.17 11:59:00 - [2]
 

I agree, finding people in safe spots is almost impossible now.

Roemy Schneider
Vanishing Point.
Posted - 2009.03.17 12:36:00 - [3]
 

Edited by: Roemy Schneider on 17/03/2009 12:39:42
told ya....

that said; try again with astrometrics V, aka deep space probes. i don't have it myself (yet) but i can imagine, life gets a tiny bit easier.

but the fact remains that, apart from the massively nerfed probe range compared to say... fathoms, the interface is a royal PITA. i dont mean the probe+camera manipulation itself, which is bad enough already (0.5AU probes in a 30AU systems? more mouse movement than x-wing) but the combination with an important directional scanning these days (again, camera), lack of "background" right-click options in sys map, the stupid map toggling button stuff, and one of the major hinderances: probe range manipulation at those bubble "edges".
i know it's "cool", looks good, can be sold well and gets mentioned as often as possible. but it cripples said camera control yet another level.

tl;dr
left mouse button has too many functions
- sys map camera angle
- sys map camera focus
- dir scan camera
- probe positioning (3 axis + 3 planes)
- probe range manipluation



oh and ofc my favourite topic: signature reducers and eccm making people invulnerable



p.s. is the camera in sys map still the same as w/o map? maybe it's time to get rid of the "seamless" stuff and keep the map camera on your probes and the space camera on whereever you were looking. we are switching (F10'ing) back and forth for dir scans anyway.

p.p.s. i've given it time and i still want the (very) old map back

Aya Vandenovich
Posted - 2009.03.17 15:32:00 - [4]
 

Originally by: Alfons Richthofen
I agree, finding people in safe spots is almost impossible now.


I'm going to have to strongly disagree here; the new probing system is amazing for hunting. If you have a target at an on/just off grid safe, or you know they close a celestial object, just throw some 0.5 au combat probes around the celestial and you will get a hit in seconds.

As for other safes, all you need to do is use the directional scanner to find out roughly where they are, and then look for signatures appearing in that area. Maybe in extremely busy systems there will a lot of false hits, but I've had absolutely no problems probing out targets sat at safes with the new system, whether it's in high sec or w-space.

If they move around, then yeah, that can be troublesome, but that's the way it's always been. Moving safes is a smart tactic for avoiding being probed down, however, if they use the same safes then it is entirely possible to get lucky.

Snow Banshee
Amarr
Ruatha Holding
Posted - 2009.03.17 16:01:00 - [5]
 

im not an expert in combat probing but i can tell you that yesterday a gang probed me in wspace just after 5 mins i was there so i dont see the problem. They caught me just fine Wink

AnmmnA
Caldari Provisions
Posted - 2009.03.17 17:02:00 - [6]
 

Edited by: AnmmnA on 17/03/2009 17:06:13
Edited by: AnmmnA on 17/03/2009 17:04:34
Edited by: AnmmnA on 17/03/2009 17:03:16
Originally by: Aya Vandenovich
I'm going to have to strongly disagree here; the new probing system is amazing for hunting. If you have a target at an on/just off grid safe, or you know they close a celestial object, just throw some 0.5 au combat probes around the celestial and you will get a hit in seconds.


Wrong. You are assuming a lot in advance.
You are assuming that you know where objective is with a margin of error of 0.25 AUs. Something really unusual. You would know it if you had used at some time the probes for hunting.

With the previous system of scanning, could find a ship in 21 seconds. 21 seconds to find exact point of 95% of ships in 10 AUs range. Currently, only to launch the probes in place and position, and takes two more times and just can scan 0,5 AU area ?.

Probe hunting its completly ******ed.
Now we just have a nice probing system for whormhole-explorers fun. Nothing more.

hacksideways
Caldari
Assah Shipping Company
Posted - 2009.03.17 18:11:00 - [7]
 

Edited by: hacksideways on 17/03/2009 18:14:48
Edited by: hacksideways on 17/03/2009 18:12:20
Probing is damned easy. Hunting is even easier. I've been living in w-space since the 10th, and in any system with at least one other person in it, I've never failed to find them. With anything larger than a frig, finding them at a safespot takes about two minutes. Same if they're at a sig. I've even managed to get more than one ship, at more than one safespot, 100% and warpable with only four probes, in a single scan. I often rely on other ships to help me find wh's, as most people will warp continuously back and forth between their entrance wh and whatever Sleeper sig they're farming to rep.

I am currently hanging out in a system with a POS in it, populated regularly by 6+ people. That number jumps when a high-sec wh opens up. I enjoy causing havoc by giving the POS-owners the locations of the newbies' safespots.

The only difficulty I've ever had is in scanning down CovOps ships. However, they have to de-cloak for brief periods of time when reloading/launching their probes. During that time, I can find them.

Of course, I have Astrometrics V and am in a CovOps ship. It significantly helps to be a dedicated prober. Maybe you should get one to help you out.

Omara Otawan
Posted - 2009.03.17 18:30:00 - [8]
 

Edited by: Omara Otawan on 17/03/2009 18:32:43
Quote:

With the previous system of scanning, could find a ship in 21 seconds. 21 seconds to find exact point of 95% of ships in 10 AUs range. Currently, only to launch the probes in place and position, and takes two more times and just can scan 0,5 AU area ?.



Was only true for covert ops sadly, in a force recon you were looking at 50-60 seconds, and if you used anything besides fathom + snoop you got so much deviation your warpin was worthless more often than not.

New system rocks, especially for fleet warfare.

Edit: if you know what you're doing, you can make sure the target only sees your probes for 10 seconds on their scanner, and infact never sees your ship, while you get a warpin at 0. Try that with the old system.

AnmmnA
Caldari Provisions
Posted - 2009.03.17 18:32:00 - [9]
 

Edited by: AnmmnA on 17/03/2009 18:34:18
Originally by: hacksideways
With anything larger than a frig, finding them at a safespot takes about two minutes.


LoL !!! ... 2 minutes ???.

Anyone can catch a defenseless carebear rating alone into W-Space. I talking about hunt pvp-players. Players in Known-space, not in W-Space (systems whit local, so they know you are here). Players who don't remain in same place more than 30 seconds cause they trying escepe from you.

2 minutes ... says " 2 minutes " as if this was quick. LoooL !!

Originally by: hacksideways
Of course, I have Astrometrics V and am in a CovOps ship. It significantly helps to be a dedicated prober. Maybe you should get one to help you out.


I flying whit Covert Ops since last 2 years. Don't try teach me about it.

Omara Otawan
Posted - 2009.03.17 18:34:00 - [10]
 

Edited by: Omara Otawan on 17/03/2009 18:34:50
Originally by: AnmmnA
Players who don't remain in same place more than 30 seconds cause they trying escepe from you.



As if you could ever catch these with the old system... Lulz.

Besides, even this is easier with new probing system, as long as you can memorize their prior location (can be done with inactive probes).

AnmmnA
Caldari Provisions
Posted - 2009.03.17 18:38:00 - [11]
 

Originally by: Omara Otawan
Originally by: AnmmnA
Players who don't remain in same place more than 30 seconds cause they trying escepe from you.



As if you could ever catch these with the old system... Lulz.


Yes, i know ... some players were laughing at my probes while they were jumping safe to safe. After a few minutes, many of them ended up by adorning the KillBoard of my corporation.

Grey Point
Center for Advanced Studies
Posted - 2009.03.17 18:41:00 - [12]
 

Edited by: Grey Point on 17/03/2009 18:47:30
Edited by: Grey Point on 17/03/2009 18:46:57
Originally by: AnmmnA
LoL !!! ... 2 minutes ???.

Anyone can catch a defenseless carebear rating alone into W-Space. I talking about hunt pvp-players. Players in Known-space, not in W-Space (systems whit local, so they know you are here). Players who don't remain in same place more than 30 seconds cause they trying escepe from you.

2 minutes ... says " 2 minutes " as if this was quick. LoooL !!

Uh huh. And you could catch people constantly changing their safespots with the old system?

If they keep changing their safespots, you're screwed. Even if you have an insta-detect scan system with insta-warp, fact is if they're constantly on the move, they're going to be gone by the time you get there, and they're not coming back. Two minutes is long enough to find someone whom doesn't know they're being hunted, or is being an idiot about it.

A smart person, whom doesn't want to be found, won't be, even with the old scanning system.

Addendum: I am talking about hunting PVP players. I follow around the POS guys in my current w-system just for kicks.

*Edit: Stupid cache... this is hacksideways.

AnmmnA
Caldari Provisions
Posted - 2009.03.17 19:03:00 - [13]
 

Really .. If you think that in two minutes you have time enough to hunt someone, I wonder what kind of incompetent you were hunting before.

And yes, before it was possible catch someone who jumping sate to safe every 30 seconds. Remember ... Once placed all the probes, you could know his exact position every 21 seconds. In whole system.
The results were the exact coordinates at the end of the analysis. So ... sooner or later find the result in the instant that was coming to his safe. In this moment, you could throw the tacklers, and they have time to fall on the victim and to stop it.

There were not dying they all those who were doing this, but yes an acceptable ratio.

AnmmnA
Caldari Provisions
Posted - 2009.03.17 19:08:00 - [14]
 

Edited by: AnmmnA on 17/03/2009 19:16:31
Edited by: AnmmnA on 17/03/2009 19:09:22
Originally by: Grey Point
A smart person, whom doesn't want to be found, won't be, even with the old scanning system.


I agree.

Previously smartest players can escape.
Now can escape the most clever players, just clever players, standard players and bit stupid players.
You can only hunt the completly foolish.

Before ... 21 seconds
Now ... 120 seconds

That's all.

Note : Sorry for my poor english level. Obviously it is not my native language and I can not argue as I wish Sad.

hacksideways
Caldari
Assah Shipping Company
Posted - 2009.03.17 19:13:00 - [15]
 

Edited by: hacksideways on 17/03/2009 19:14:13
Originally by: AnmmnA
Really .. If you think that in two minutes you have time enough to hunt someone, I wonder what kind of incompetent you were hunting before.

And yes, before it was possible catch someone who jumping sate to safe every 30 seconds. Remember ... Once placed all the probes, you could know his exact position every 21 seconds. In whole system.
The results were the exact coordinates at the end of the analysis. So ... sooner or later find the result in the instant that was coming to his safe. In this moment, you could throw the tacklers, and they have time to fall on the victim and to stop it.

There were not dying they all those who were doing this, but yes an acceptable ratio.
Well then, they were idiots, and should have warped more often, instead of every 30 seconds.

Probing catches the idiots or the unaware. Always has and always will.

Not to mention that I can now scan down more than one person at once (using eight probes), anywhere in the system, without ever having to de-cloak. Or even move, for that matter. No more guessing.

AnmmnA
Caldari Provisions
Posted - 2009.03.17 19:19:00 - [16]
 

Edited by: AnmmnA on 17/03/2009 19:21:53
25 seconds (+4 seconds to deploy a probe and hit "Analyze") <--- vs. ---> 120 seconds

You can say all you want. Never be able to argue that it is better to take longer.
Now takes the same to find a person who previously took to find six times.

hacksideways
Caldari
Assah Shipping Company
Posted - 2009.03.17 19:22:00 - [17]
 

Originally by: AnmmnA
25 seconds (+4 seconds to deploy a probe and hit "Analyze") <--- vs. ---> 120 seconds

You can say all you want. Never be able to argue that it is better to take longer.
25 seconds when you know what general area of the system they're in. How much time was spent warping from place to place in the system trying get them in range of your probes?

New system: everything is within range. The 120 seconds, while mutable (sometimes less, sometimes more), has no unsaid caveat, while on your end, you're leaving out the time it took to locate your target in the first place.

AnmmnA
Caldari Provisions
Posted - 2009.03.17 19:42:00 - [18]
 

Let's see ... Each time the objective changes of place, you must start again. Do we agree with this?

Well ...

You are really incapable of seeing that is 6 times more likely to move during the 120" it takes now, than 25" it took before.
So, now it is 6 times more difficult than before.
If you hunt before someone moderately clever was hard. Now is hard-hard-hard-hard-hard-hard. So it's close to impossible.

Remember that all the time I'm talking about hunt pvp-players, not unskilled carebears.

Kahega Amielden
Minmatar Ship Construction Services
Ushra'Khan
Posted - 2009.03.17 19:47:00 - [19]
 

Quote:
Let's see ... Each time the objective changes of place, you must start again. Do we agree with this?


No. You can drop more than 4 probes.

AnmmnA
Caldari Provisions
Posted - 2009.03.17 19:51:00 - [20]
 

Edited by: AnmmnA on 17/03/2009 19:53:24
Originally by: Kahega Amielden
No. You can drop more than 4 probes.


As before ... and ?

Or may be you hace smart probes ? And it replaces arround your target automaticly ?
When targets moves, you must rescan whole system to find out where must move your probes now. So, restart your scan.

hacksideways
Caldari
Assah Shipping Company
Posted - 2009.03.17 19:57:00 - [21]
 

Originally by: AnmmnA
Let's see ... Each time the objective changes of place, you must start again. Do we agree with this?

Well ...

You are really incapable of seeing that is 6 times more likely to move during the 120" it takes now, than 25" it took before.
So, now it is 6 times more difficult than before.
If you hunt before someone moderately clever was hard. Now is hard-hard-hard-hard-hard-hard. So it's close to impossible.

Remember that all the time I'm talking about hunt pvp-players, not unskilled carebears.

Interesting, so am I. And I seem to have zero difficulty. I guess the problem lies with the user.

AnmmnA
Caldari Provisions
Posted - 2009.03.17 20:18:00 - [22]
 

Edited by: AnmmnA on 17/03/2009 20:20:20
To understand the difficulty, you should have used the probes before (for hunting people, not complex). So you could compare "now" and "before".

If you did not, you will never understand.

Edit : If you really don't think there is any difficulty, we invite you to do some tutorials (I'm not kidding).
I really am curious to know how you do.

Omara Otawan
Posted - 2009.03.17 23:20:00 - [23]
 

Edited by: Omara Otawan on 17/03/2009 23:20:57
Originally by: AnmmnA

To understand the difficulty, you should have used the probes before (for hunting people, not complex). So you could compare "now" and "before".



I've used the probes before to catch people. Was not impressed with performance (basically just spamming probes in system, with the occasional warp-bookmark-warp frenzy to get close enough), and it was boring on top.

New system is kind of fun to do actually, and in the realistic scenarios you are better off than before.

No way to catch a safespot hopper before, and no way now, where is the issue, everything else is better now.

CrestoftheStars
Caldari
Recreation Of The World
Posted - 2009.03.18 00:12:00 - [24]
 

Originally by: Alfons Richthofen
I agree, finding people in safe spots is almost impossible now.


and it should be.

if you can find a pilot in a frig with a probe in under 1 hour, well then you shouldn't be needing a probe AT ALL to find something as big as the exploration sites.

soo seems fair to me.
sucks that the easy kills are gone now doesn't it ;)

Phidell
Chaos Reborn
Rote Kapelle
Posted - 2009.03.18 00:32:00 - [25]
 

Originally by: CrestoftheStars
Originally by: Alfons Richthofen
I agree, finding people in safe spots is almost impossible now.


and it should be.

if you can find a pilot in a frig with a probe in under 1 hour, well then you shouldn't be needing a probe AT ALL to find something as big as the exploration sites.

soo seems fair to me.
sucks that the easy kills are gone now doesn't it ;)
Storyline fits gameplay. CCP can invent any reason needed and the fact is PvP probing is too slow. Simply switching safespots repeatedly is good enough to prevent anyone from scanning you down. It was possible before to get a hit just as they land and warp someone ontop of them quick, an option that is removed now.

Frig in under 1 hour lol. Get OUT.

AnmmnA
Caldari Provisions
Posted - 2009.03.18 00:47:00 - [26]
 

Edited by: AnmmnA on 18/03/2009 00:50:19
Originally by: Omara Otawan
New system is kind of fun to do actually [...]


I completly agree whit this part. This new method is more fun and need more "actions" from player.

Originally by: Omara Otawan
[...] and in the realistic scenarios you are better off than before.


EVE's world, it isn't realistic by no means. Where are Newton physics ? Basic Dynamic's laws ? Sound in void space ? Visible lasers ? Drones creating ammo from nowhere ? Ships breaking light speed ? etc ... So, why we need now a "realistic" scan system ?

So, now is fun ? ... Yes.
But, it's practical ? ... Absolutly no.

In empire, probably all look for amusement. But in 0.0 the efficiency is more important.

Lt Angus
Caldari
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Posted - 2009.03.18 00:56:00 - [27]
 

maybe its because deeps kick ass and the systems is only 40au wide but i can find anyone in something bigger then a frig within 20 seconds

Omara Otawan
Posted - 2009.03.18 01:38:00 - [28]
 

Edited by: Omara Otawan on 18/03/2009 01:39:57
Originally by: AnmmnA

In empire, probably all look for amusement. But in 0.0 the efficiency is more important.


And coincidentially the new probing system is a major improvement for 0.0 fleet warfare.

Agreed, you have to learn now how it works and get good at it, but that means more power to the specialist pilots, instead everyone with enough RL money for putting a months worth of training into a covops alt.

Roemy Schneider
Vanishing Point.
Posted - 2009.03.18 04:54:00 - [29]
 

Originally by: Lt Angus
maybe its because deeps kick ass and the systems is only 40au wide but i can find anyone in something bigger then a frig within 20 seconds
apart from that number being methematically impossible, you wont get my solo pvp scimitar... ever
55.75m, 33.32 ladar

i can go afk in your 0.0 uncloaked

Cadde
Gallente
221st Century Warfare
Posted - 2009.03.18 05:23:00 - [30]
 

Edited by: Cadde on 18/03/2009 05:23:18
There is one thing i have to say about this is...

Anyone in this thread willing to bet a billion isk that they are the BEST apocrypha prober existing and will ever exist? Until then you better improve your methods or scanning.
With enough practice i think i will be able to find anything cruiser size or larger within 30 seconds as long as they don't carry ECCM, sig reducing mods or are cloaked. The only space i would have trouble finding the "right" guy would be heavily populated systems.

Also, i am practicing with the new system constantly. I am able to pin down a group of drones in under 15 seconds in mission systems. That is i scan, get a 100% hit, warp and scan again. I have collected hundreds of abandoned drones with the new apocrypha system.
The only thing that takes time is launching your probes and positioning them in a good fashion for the first few scans.

I think it's a matter of practicing hard and finding the OPTIMAL way of narrowing down targets. Also keep in mind that if they are making new safespots all the time they eventually have to warp to a planet to "reset" the process. If they keep warping from SS to SS they are going to end up in the middle of the system eventually.

If CCP change it now to make it easier it may be that the ones getting hits in 30 seconds now will get hits in < 10 seconds later.


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