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Renarla
Posted - 2009.03.09 23:18:00 - [1]
 

Edited by: Renarla on 09/03/2009 23:31:19

Edit: Got Pilgrim confused with Curse.
Which of these ships would you want in your gang?

Falcon: Remove 2-3 ships from a fight for 20+ seconds, ~200km range.
Pilgrim: Reduce 1 turret ship to near zero effectiveness, ~40km range. Can also reduce a ship to low effectiveness within ~12km. (Depends if the target has boosters and knows how to use them.)
Rapier: Increase your gangs missile effectiveness against 1 or 2 targets, and/or slow down 1 or 2 ships trying to kite outside of web range, ~40km range.
Arazu: Reduce 1 long range ship to 0% effectiveness, does jack **** to close range ships, can also perform the role of a 200k frigate for 100m. (Tackle) ~50km range

LegendInMyOwnMind
Minmatar
Republic Military School
Posted - 2009.03.09 23:20:00 - [2]
 

Lol, I was reading the other thread and thought your post was really good and pretty much distilled the problem to 5 lines.

The answer of course is obviously the falcon.

Research Rachel
Posted - 2009.03.09 23:22:00 - [3]
 

*yawns* these are getting old now.

If you can't deal with falcons you shouldn't be pvp'ing Wink

marakor
Gallente
Anti Lag Forum Smackers
Posted - 2009.03.09 23:33:00 - [4]
 

Originally by: Renarla

Which of these ships would you want in your gang?

Falcon: Remove 2-3 ships from a fight for 20+ seconds, ~200km range.


Actually they only have a "chance" to do that, but in a small to med sized gang id choose the falcon.

Originally by: Renarla
Pilgrim: Reduce 1 ship to ~50% effectiveness, ~40km range. (Depends if the target has boosters and knows how to use them.)


Arguably the greatest solo ship in the game (depending on how much you prefer the curse) i would most proly choose one these over any other solo ship in the game.


Originally by: Renarla
Rapier: Increase your gangs missile effectiveness against 1 or 2 targets, and/or slow down 1 or 2 ships trying to kite outside of web range, ~40km range.


Weaker since the web nerf but had a very long day in the sun as the "most used recon" during the nano age.


Originally by: Renarla
Arazu: Reduce 1 long range ship to 0% effectiveness, does jack **** to close range ships, can also perform the role of a 200k frigate for 100m. (Tackle) ~50km range


Using this ship correctly with a buddy in a dmg dealer can make you gankers to be reckoned with. Its guaranteed effect within its optimal makes it a ship you can totally rely on when ganking a larger dangerous foe.

Unlike jammers on a falcon that can fail and get your team mate melted by a monster the damp/scram fitted arazu is a ship that can be relied upon and plan your tactics around when in 2-3 man roaming ganks (works rather well along side the rapier and cerb in a 3 man gank team as a matter of fact).

Adaera
Posted - 2009.03.09 23:36:00 - [5]
 

Going by your logic we should nerf the Rifter because it's better than most other frigates.

Wannabehero
Wayward Ventures
Posted - 2009.03.09 23:41:00 - [6]
 

Edited by: Wannabehero on 09/03/2009 23:41:42

Recons are not meant to be equal, they are each intended for different roles.

With that said, the Arazu/Lachesis and Rapier/Huginn do need some serious love; the falcon/rook do not need a nerf.

Renarla
Posted - 2009.03.09 23:49:00 - [7]
 

Edited by: Renarla on 09/03/2009 23:49:51

Originally by: Wannabehero
Edited by: Wannabehero on 09/03/2009 23:41:42

Recons are not meant to be equal, they are each intended for different roles.

With that said, the Arazu/Lachesis and Rapier/Huginn do need some serious love; the falcon/rook do not need a nerf.


I'd be perfectly happy if the other Recons were made as powerful as the Falcon. However, the nerf bat would come very quickly after CCP realizes that they've made the other recons solopwnmobiles by buffing them. (Assuming they gave them the buffs they'd need to be brought in line with the Falcon.)

Adaera
Posted - 2009.03.09 23:53:00 - [8]
 

Edited by: Adaera on 09/03/2009 23:54:07
Originally by: Renarla
Edited by: Renarla on 09/03/2009 23:49:51

Originally by: Wannabehero
Edited by: Wannabehero on 09/03/2009 23:41:42

Recons are not meant to be equal, they are each intended for different roles.

With that said, the Arazu/Lachesis and Rapier/Huginn do need some serious love; the falcon/rook do not need a nerf.


I'd be perfectly happy if the other Recons were made as powerful as the Falcon. However, the nerf bat would come very quickly after CCP realizes that they've made the other recons solopwnmobiles by buffing them. (Assuming they gave them the buffs they'd need to be brought in line with the Falcon.)


Since when have CCP been particularly fast with balance changes like this?
- They've said stealth bomber changes were in the works - that was months ago.
- They prenerfed bombs - and look at the state they're STILL IN
- Ditto blackops
- Look how long nanoships were running around at godmode speeds for

Oh and don't get me wrong here, I think the Falcon could use some tweaking, but let's face it: when CCP swings the nerf bat, they swing it HARD and covered in rusty nails. So if it's a choice between it being a tad overpowered and nerfed into complete and utter uselessness never to be fixed (see above track record) - I'd prefer the former.

Wannabehero
Wayward Ventures
Posted - 2009.03.09 23:56:00 - [9]
 

Originally by: Renarla
Edited by: Renarla on 09/03/2009 23:49:51

Originally by: Wannabehero
Edited by: Wannabehero on 09/03/2009 23:41:42

Recons are not meant to be equal, they are each intended for different roles.

With that said, the Arazu/Lachesis and Rapier/Huginn do need some serious love; the falcon/rook do not need a nerf.


I'd be perfectly happy if the other Recons were made as powerful as the Falcon. However, the nerf bat would come very quickly after CCP realizes that they've made the other recons solopwnmobiles by buffing them. (Assuming they gave them the buffs they'd need to be brought in line with the Falcon.)


Yet the falcon is not a solopwnmobile. The other recons do not need to brought to such a status. The other recons need a boost to their EW in a gang-oriented fashion, and readjustment to certain stats of the ships and relevant modules. Such a discussion is worthy of a separate thread, perhaps with a less inflammatory title.

James Lyrus
Lyrus Associates
The Star Fraction
Posted - 2009.03.10 00:05:00 - [10]
 

On the day I see people solo killing in falcons, I might agree.
Until then you can nerf tacklers, because that's a role everyone shoehorns into their gang, and some of the tacklers are better than others.

Adaera
Posted - 2009.03.10 00:14:00 - [11]
 

Originally by: James Lyrus
On the day I see people solo killing in falcons, I might agree.
Until then you can nerf tacklers, because that's a role everyone shoehorns into their gang, and some of the tacklers are better than others.


Shocked NERF WHOEVERS INTERCEPTOR IS BEST.

Slade Hoo
Amarr
Retired Gunslingers
Posted - 2009.03.10 00:16:00 - [12]
 

Nerf Falcon.
tbh

Recon Three
Palsies
Dead Terrorists
Posted - 2009.03.10 00:51:00 - [13]
 

Not until I get home and sell mine.

Piece of trash just sits in my hangar gathering dust. WASTE OF ISK IMHO. :>

Jack Coutu
Gallente
Percussive Diplomacy
The Phoenix. Consortium
Posted - 2009.03.10 01:11:00 - [14]
 

Falcon's are AMAZING support, but they are sort of useless outside of a well run, or somewhat decent gang. Vunerable, slow, and usually primary if in range, they have no real solo potential. While the Amarr recons have the solo side down, they are not as useful in a gang as a Rapier or Huginn, and sadly Arazu and Lach are not so hot but still are pretty fun. I have seen the others used a lot, I fly an Arazu, and if I was NOT in a gang, I'd feel pretty sad having the DPS of a T2 incursus, with the EHP of a Vexor. Not so hot considering the price.

tropic89
Posted - 2009.03.10 01:32:00 - [15]
 

Ops a ****ing blithering moron with no real hope of ever being more than space dust, go **** off.

Solid Prefekt
Haven Front
Posted - 2009.03.10 01:44:00 - [16]
 

Without a doubt, the Falcon is the best single ship you can have in any roaming gang. Last week I saw a 25 man gang with 7 of them. Yes, seven. And they kicked ass as no one could target. You can whine forever to fit ECCM on your 2 mid slotted claw and bring a Sniper BS with you in the roaming gang, but in the real world the Falcon rules.

The solution is a lot harder though. It is not simply reducing range as if they were to go under 100km then they would be sniped by HACs (who would primary them first). CCP will need to think outside the box for this one to make a solution that will not kill the ship.

Sun Clausewitz
Posted - 2009.03.10 18:11:00 - [17]
 

Boost Falcons, they need a Tank and some DPS.

Sh'iva
Posted - 2009.03.15 16:57:00 - [18]
 

sup

Malcanis
Caldari
Vanishing Point.
The Initiative.
Posted - 2009.03.15 17:10:00 - [19]
 

Originally by: Sh'iva
sup


Forum bans.

Bibi
Basic Tritanium Mining North
Posted - 2009.03.18 16:08:00 - [20]
 

Edited by: Bibi on 18/03/2009 16:17:50
Emberressing statements Renarla.
First YOU can't compare all recons with each other as they do different things in combat.

Second with your logic It sounds like every engagement is solid concrete and totally looks the same everytime.

For example if you going to catch things at the gates with you small gang you need maybe dictor, arazu and rapier that's just one scenario were the falcon can do nothing..

Falcon could jam but thats another thing he could do nothing help catch the target. Now obviously if you had gang with vaga,ishtar pilgrim and falcon you will miss out on alot of those gate kills you would with the dictor,arazu and rapier gang.

Then vaga,ishtar,pilgrim and falcon gang could be alot better for killing a heavytanked domi with neutralizer in a belt. Same scenario here falcon could do nothing itself to actually kill the domi itself, reason its a support ship and a support ship only. I'm not going to tell how many engements I had were I wished I had more dps Instead of jamming support in the small roaming gang.

Every fight has its own character and each ship are different or worse in different engements you must know this if you pvp but
by the sounds of it you can't pvp alot to be honest Renarla.


Cedric Diggory
Perfunctory Oleaginous Laocoon Mugwumps
Posted - 2009.03.18 16:33:00 - [21]
 

Quote:
Going by your logic we should nerf the Rifter because it's better than most other frigates.


Finally, a reasonable proposal in ships & modules!

baltec1
Posted - 2009.03.18 17:37:00 - [22]
 

Originally by: Renarla
Edited by: Renarla on 09/03/2009 23:49:51

Originally by: Wannabehero
Edited by: Wannabehero on 09/03/2009 23:41:42

Recons are not meant to be equal, they are each intended for different roles.

With that said, the Arazu/Lachesis and Rapier/Huginn do need some serious love; the falcon/rook do not need a nerf.


I'd be perfectly happy if the other Recons were made as powerful as the Falcon. However, the nerf bat would come very quickly after CCP realizes that they've made the other recons solopwnmobiles by buffing them. (Assuming they gave them the buffs they'd need to be brought in line with the Falcon.)


Solopwnmobiles?

Childstar
Minmatar
Republic University
Posted - 2009.03.18 17:43:00 - [23]
 

Originally by: baltec1
Originally by: Renarla
Edited by: Renarla on 09/03/2009 23:49:51

Originally by: Wannabehero
Edited by: Wannabehero on 09/03/2009 23:41:42

Recons are not meant to be equal, they are each intended for different roles.

With that said, the Arazu/Lachesis and Rapier/Huginn do need some serious love; the falcon/rook do not need a nerf.


I'd be perfectly happy if the other Recons were made as powerful as the Falcon. However, the nerf bat would come very quickly after CCP realizes that they've made the other recons solopwnmobiles by buffing them. (Assuming they gave them the buffs they'd need to be brought in line with the Falcon.)


Solopwnmobiles?


The curse/pilgrim are as good at solo work as the falcon is at gang combat.

James Lyrus
Lyrus Associates
The Star Fraction
Posted - 2009.03.18 17:54:00 - [24]
 

How about you retry the comparison, only this time include the fact that the Pilgrim/Rapier/Arazu have some damage output, and a tank.

You're comparing them on the basis of straight ewar platforms, and ... well, frankly is it any real suprise that the one ship that does _NOTHING_ other than ewar, is better than the ships that do a few other things too?

Whine about nerfing falcons all you want, but at least use some valid comparisons when you do.

Trevor Warps
Posted - 2009.03.18 19:21:00 - [25]
 

1. Remove ECM from the game
2. Give caldari sensor damps
3. ...
4. Profit !!!

AnmmnA
Caldari Provisions
Posted - 2009.03.18 19:24:00 - [26]
 

Edited by: AnmmnA on 18/03/2009 19:25:53
Neverending story of Nerf Falcons.

welsh wizard
0utbreak
KrautbreaK
Posted - 2009.03.18 21:02:00 - [27]
 

Originally by: James Lyrus
How about you retry the comparison, only this time include the fact that the Pilgrim/Rapier/Arazu have some damage output, and a tank.

You're comparing them on the basis of straight ewar platforms, and ... well, frankly is it any real suprise that the one ship that does _NOTHING_ other than ewar, is better than the ships that do a few other things too?

Whine about nerfing falcons all you want, but at least use some valid comparisons when you do.


This is all that ever needs to be said. CCP know this so, unlucky!

Shade IX
Kangaroos With Frickin Lazerbeams
Ninja Unicorns with Huge Horns
Posted - 2009.03.18 21:29:00 - [28]
 

Originally by: Research Rachel
*yawns* these are getting old now.

If you can't deal with falcons you shouldn't be pvp'ing Wink


WHAT a TOSS!!!

Falcons arnt the problem, ECCM 2 is, these moduals need to be made more effective, if im going to waiste a slot on one of these mods just in the case i might fight a falcon, then it should BLOODY WORK! im sick of getting purma jammed even when i have one fitted, ive even been jammed running x2 ECCM 2.Sad

CCP please buff these mods and bring PvP back.

AnmmnA
Caldari Provisions
Posted - 2009.03.18 21:43:00 - [29]
 

Originally by: Shade IX
[...] im sick of getting purma jammed even when i have one fitted, ive even been jammed running x2 ECCM 2.Sad


This just can mean few things ... :

- You fit ECCM on really weak sensor ship (t1 frigate, incerceptor, etc .. ).
- You was an objective of multiple falcons, who spend lot of modules on you.
- You are the most unlucky guy in eve. Cause jam success are based on %.
- You lie.

And right awnser is ... ?

GTC seller72
Posted - 2009.03.18 21:48:00 - [30]
 

Originally by: Shade IX
Originally by: Research Rachel
*yawns* these are getting old now.

If you can't deal with falcons you shouldn't be pvp'ing Wink


WHAT a TOSS!!!

Falcons arnt the problem, ECCM 2 is, these moduals need to be made more effective, if im going to waiste a slot on one of these mods just in the case i might fight a falcon, then it should BLOODY WORK! im sick of getting purma jammed even when i have one fitted, ive even been jammed running x2 ECCM 2.Sad

CCP please buff these mods and bring PvP back.


So you use a SINGLE SLOT and you want immunity from a entire T2 ship flown by a max skilled player on a full account and with a entire rack of mid slots, low slots and rig slotts dedicated to jamming str and range????..

NO.



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