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Tippia
Caldari
Sunshine and Lollipops
Posted - 2009.03.16 20:07:00 - [211]
 

Originally by: desudesuu
No other ship can MISS it's EW, many times over.
Yes they can — every kind of EW with falloff is subject to random-chance failure.

GTC seller72
Posted - 2009.03.16 20:17:00 - [212]
 

Originally by: Tippia
Originally by: desudesuu
No other ship can MISS it's EW, many times over.
Yes they can every kind of EW with falloff is subject to random-chance failure.


I think he means miss within its optimal.

Sokratesz
Rionnag Alba
Northern Coalition.
Posted - 2009.03.16 20:49:00 - [213]
 

Locked. Pointless thread.

- Sok.

Trader20
Posted - 2009.03.16 21:48:00 - [214]
 

Yea my falcon is great for a pos bash Rolling Eyes

Jan'z Kolna
Sebiestor Tribe
Posted - 2009.03.17 15:36:00 - [215]
 

Originally by: Jan'z Kolna
ECCM works on BS against just one racial jammer...one more jammer and you're screwed

all those counters - ECCM, snipers,eccm-ed recons - they come at cost - gimped setups, gimped gangs... and all this just because of one ship



1. They do not gimp all gangs only yours as you seem to wanna fit gank/tank only, and TBH the use of a single slot is not really a "gimp" anyway..


one slot dedicated to countering falcons and nothing else - yes, I consider it a gimp; any other module can be used against every ship


2. If falcons are so powerful and are such i-win for gang combat fitting a eccm would allow you to defeat gangs that rely on them so you should be hapopy it exists and use it.


if falcons aren't such i-win for gang combat, why is everybody using them?
fitting eccm is not enough to win - that's why I said :
Originally by: Jan'z Kolna
why bother with all that if you simply can bring your own falcons, preferably more than opposition?


to win, one needs eccm fitted on all ships AND more - like bringing sniper ,or bomber ( look up at : gimped gang) ; but best bet is falcons in one's gang


I think you need your head looking at, you complain that you need to use a single slot from your ship, but in the next breath you talk about bringing a entire ship/account along.



both ,module and ship,is needed


You need to evaluate your perspective on the matter i think.



you need to evaluate your perspective and social skills; maybe ability to think as well



Originally by: Jan'z Kolna
it's about maximum effectiveness

and that's what is happening on TQ

remeber nanoships? 'best counter to nanoships is to bring your own nanogang'

now it's the same with falcons



Rubbish falcons are bad at jamming falcons as they have one of the highest sig str in the game.




rubbish , base sig strength doesn't mean much w/o eccm fitted; and falcons usually don't fit eccm

falcons also don't fit tank - but it is by choice , not necessity
long range, cloak at hand, aligned for warpout, nano nerfed.... pretty safe huh?
so falcon pilot can safely fit jammers in all slots to fully utilize his ship

ever seen other recon without some resemblance of tank,be it extender ,plate,speed?
is it why nobody uses rooks - because they can *gasp* get hurt?

daisy dook
Posted - 2009.03.17 18:27:00 - [216]
 

Originally by: Jan'z Kolna

Some whine



A Falcon has to use 4 midslots (ie racial jammers) to have the same potential ewar effect as any other RECON (non-racial ewar) against a single ship; so saying a Falcon can fill up on jammers is a fallacy, 2 ships of the same race could equal one dead Falcon...

As to the range arguement, you can say the same about any sniper but I don't hear people complaining about them.

One final point, if you consider fitting ECCM gimping your fit then you are not meeting enough Falcons.

Jalif
Minmatar
Snuff Box
Posted - 2009.03.17 20:14:00 - [217]
 

Originally by: daisy dook
Originally by: Jan'z Kolna

Some whine



A Falcon has to use 4 midslots (ie racial jammers) to have the same potential ewar effect as any other RECON (non-racial ewar) against a single ship; so saying a Falcon can fill up on jammers is a fallacy, 2 ships of the same race could equal one dead Falcon...

As to the range arguement, you can say the same about any sniper but I don't hear people complaining about them.

One final point, if you consider fitting ECCM gimping your fit then you are not meeting enough Falcons.


you must be the ****test falcon pilot there is. My corpmate can permajam 6 BS's with some luck (or almost permajam). They get less jammed when they have ECCM fitted, but they still get jammed.

Please stop smoking.

daisy dook
Posted - 2009.03.17 20:50:00 - [218]
 

Originally by: Jalif
Originally by: daisy dook
Originally by: Jan'z Kolna

Some whine



A Falcon has to use 4 midslots (ie racial jammers) to have the same potential ewar effect as any other RECON (non-racial ewar) against a single ship; so saying a Falcon can fill up on jammers is a fallacy, 2 ships of the same race could equal one dead Falcon...

As to the range arguement, you can say the same about any sniper but I don't hear people complaining about them.

One final point, if you consider fitting ECCM gimping your fit then you are not meeting enough Falcons.


you must be the ****test falcon pilot there is. My corpmate can permajam 6 BS's with some luck (or almost permajam). They get less jammed when they have ECCM fitted, but they still get jammed.

Please stop smoking.


And thus is perpetuated the myth of the Falcon, that does assume he has the correct racials.

AnmmnA
Caldari Provisions
Posted - 2009.03.17 21:06:00 - [219]
 

Edited by: AnmmnA on 17/03/2009 21:08:25
Originally by: Jalif
you must be the ****test falcon pilot there is. My corpmate can permajam 6 BS's with some luck (or almost permajam). They get less jammed when they have ECCM fitted, but they still get jammed.


Racial ECM have 50% change to jam unprotected BS (approximately). So, if you want ensure permajam on BS, you must spend MINIMUM TWO racial jammers on it. And this just give you a 75% chance of success. This is not permajamm.
Third racial jammers increases the chances to 87%. Something acceptable to say "permajam".

Your corpmate has lied to you. Accept it.
It is question of numbers. As 1+1=2, not 3 or 4.

maralt
Minmatar
The seers of truth
Posted - 2009.03.17 21:07:00 - [220]
 

Originally by: daisy dook
One final point, if you consider fitting ECCM gimping your fit then you are not meeting enough Falcons.


KABLAMMMOVery Happy

The End.



Originally by: Jalif


you must be the ****test falcon pilot there is. My corpmate can permajam 6 BS's with some luck (or almost permajam). They get less jammed when they have ECCM fitted, but they still get jammed.

Please stop smoking.


I have totally perfect skills in the falcon and i have used it a lot and know others who have used it with perfect skills and even faction jammers fitted and none of us has ever jammed 6 BS at the same even with the perfect racials fitted and used on each target.

And to get even one consecutive jam on 6 BS let alone multiple sextuplet consecutive jams is utter junk.

Do stop lying.

The Tzar
FinFleet
Raiden.
Posted - 2009.03.22 11:16:00 - [221]
 

Originally by: Jalif
you must be the ****test falcon pilot there is. My corpmate can permajam 6 BS's with some luck (or almost permajam). They get less jammed when they have ECCM fitted, but they still get jammed. Please stop smoking.


Either your corpmate is lying to you or you are lying to us.

One simple piece of bull$hit like this however is good for the pro-falcon argument so keep this runny, half digested effluent pouring from your mouth.

It's 'just' a game..., the fact you have to lie to make your point AMAZES me tbqfh.

Take a long hard look at your life/morals/what you stand for and ctrl Q.

Cohkka
Celestial Apocalypse
death from above..
Posted - 2009.03.22 11:54:00 - [222]
 

We're 3 people with BC/Cruiser sized ships hunting a BC sized target. He compeltly screwes up and gets cought at the gate. Then his alt warps in at 0 in a Falcon, jamms all 3 of us and the BC warps off. We manage to bump the Falcon but again he jamms all of us and warps off. Nice, he manouvred himself into a position most undesireable, he even screwed up with his Falcon alt and yet there are no consequences for him.

People have cried about how overpowered the Nos/ECM Domi was because the multispecs were way too powerful, they cried about WCS and they cried about speed because it meant they didn't have to suffer any consequences most of the time, even when they are bad at PvP. You station huggers/blob warriors can talk much when the day is long, it doesn't change the gamebraking effect ECM has.

Epicurius
Posted - 2009.03.22 11:59:00 - [223]
 

The great thing about eve is that there are so many options that it possible to come up with a counter to the falcon problem. I think people get very lazy.Stop waiting for CCP to sort out the problem for you and have a go at it yourself. The fact that ecm maybe a lil strong compared to eccm is neither here nor there, the problem (whether it is a problem or not) is it is here for the forseeable future so why not have a go at it. All it requires is to just think outside the box.

Now that they are so popular you can guess you will see at least one or two falcons in a med size gang you engage. I have recently setup a ship specifically for taking out falcons, because i know that when i am with my gang we will always come up against them.

I will be the first to admit that i dont have a 100% success rate, but in most engagements i will at least make the falcon warp, which is as good as him not being there. Every now and again you catch one with his pants down and pop, all worth it.

With unconventional setups you always have the element of suprise aswell because you know roughly what the opposing falcons will have fitted, they think they know what you have. Advantage to you.

maralt
Minmatar
The seers of truth
Posted - 2009.03.22 12:58:00 - [224]
 

Originally by: Cohkka
We're 3 people with BC/Cruiser sized ships hunting a BC sized target. He compeltly screwes up and gets cought at the gate. Then his alt warps in at 0 in a Falcon, jamms all 3 of us and the BC warps off. We manage to bump the Falcon but again he jamms all of us and warps off. Nice, he manouvred himself into a position most undesireable, he even screwed up with his Falcon alt and yet there are no consequences for him.


And the moral of the story is that if you fly around in small teams of 2 or 3 ect in cruisers and BC with weakish sig str another small team that brings a T2 ship dedicated utterly for ewar will probably beat you or manage to evade you.

Originally by: Cohkka
People have cried about how overpowered the Nos/ECM Domi was because the multispecs were way too powerful, they cried about WCS and they cried about speed because it meant they didn't have to suffer any consequences most of the time, even when they are bad at PvP.


Nos/multispec ECM could be fitted on any ship not just the domi (although the domi suited it well).

WCS could also be fitted on any ship.

Nano could be fitted on a wide variety of ships.

ECM is rather useless when fitted on anything but its dedicated ships or you would have a reasonable comparison.

And even then those bonused ships need to dedicate at least 3 low slots (thats all of the lows on the falcon and rook) as well as all their rig slots and all but one of their mids to jamming/range (maybe all the mids if they are in a static camp and do not fit a mwd).

Consider that when you think jamming a few low sig str ships is wrong.

Cohkka
Celestial Apocalypse
death from above..
Posted - 2009.03.22 13:53:00 - [225]
 

Originally by: maralt

And the moral of the story is that if you fly around in small teams of 2 or 3 ect in cruisers and BC with weakish sig str another small team that brings a T2 ship dedicated utterly for ewar will probably beat you or manage to evade you.



Congratulations, you're able to summerize 3 sentences, here have a cookie. Still, I don't see a reason to mentione it's a T2 ship and it's dedication. Quite frankly your generalization fails, as it only works on a Falcon.


Quote:
ECM is rather useless when fitted on anything but its dedicated ships or you would have a reasonable comparison.


Rather weak argument and you're intentionally missing the point. These ships were all a low risk affair, that's why they were so popular. Falcons are a low risk affair, that's why they are so popular.

maralt
Minmatar
The seers of truth
Posted - 2009.03.22 14:16:00 - [226]
 

Edited by: maralt on 22/03/2009 14:16:15
Originally by: Cohkka
Originally by: maralt

And the moral of the story is that if you fly around in small teams of 2 or 3 ect in cruisers and BC with weakish sig str another small team that brings a T2 ship dedicated utterly for ewar will probably beat you or manage to evade you.



Congratulations, you're able to summerize 3 sentences, here have a cookie. Still, I don't see a reason to mentione it's a T2 ship and it's dedication. Quite frankly your generalization fails, as it only works on a Falcon.


I did not see a reason not to mention it but i actually did see a reason to mention it, especially when you consider the falcon sacrifices all but one (mwd) of its mids, lows and rig slots to jamming str and range.


Originally by: Cohkka
Originally by: maralt
ECM is rather useless when fitted on anything but its dedicated ships or you would have a reasonable comparison.


Rather weak argument and you're intentionally missing the point. These ships were all a low risk affair, that's why they were so popular. Falcons are a low risk affair, that's why they are so popular.


Im not missing the point you are, the other things you list were fittings that effected a multitude of ships and made them do things that they should not be able.

The falcon does exactly what it should.

The falcons ECM is not the reason it is more survivable, its the fact that with its dedicated fit it can operate at sniper ranges. And just like the eagle, ferox, vulture, rokh that also share that extra bit of survivability by operating at longer ranges and trade off by doing less damage it gets a chance based ewar system unlike the others that operate 100% in optimal.

Without that range it would be useless, and as the only worthwhile med sized gang combat ewar ship in eve we would be reduced to gank/tank.

Irrilian
EVE University
Ivy League
Posted - 2009.03.22 15:22:00 - [227]
 

While people love to complain about ECM, the problem is that the main Caldari weapon system sucks.

As a consequence of previous missile ballancing the overriding wisdom is that Caldari suck at PVP: "Please dont bring your Raven to our sniper fleet", "Why arent you in a Mega rather than a Rohk, no one uses that range?", "Missiles suck for PVP", "Where's your Falcon?"

Thus you have an excess of Caldari pilots with not much to do other than either cross train for Amarr (hey who isnt?) or fly a Falcon, hence the number of Falcons in use.

Cohkka
Celestial Apocalypse
death from above..
Posted - 2009.03.22 15:56:00 - [228]
 

Originally by: maralt

The falcons ECM is not the reason it is more survivable, its the fact that with its dedicated fit it can operate at sniper ranges. And just like the eagle, ferox, vulture, rokh that also share that extra bit of survivability by operating at longer ranges and trade off by doing less damage it gets a chance based ewar system unlike the others that operate 100% in optimal.



Again, you're missing the point, or you're incapable of comprehending/reading. In my case he warped in at 0, agressed, made his main warp and then warped out himself while noone was able to do **** other than bumping him. It's an emergence button you click when you screw up and odds are you'll die a quick death. It's MUCH like having a full rack of WCS AND ECM fitted with the exception that it requires a second account.

And no the Faclon does not sacrifice anything for it's ability to jam. If anything it DOESN'T have to sacrifice it's med/low slots for tanking, because it doesn't need to.

Childstar
Minmatar
Republic University
Posted - 2009.03.22 16:12:00 - [229]
 

Edited by: Childstar on 22/03/2009 16:14:28

Originally by: Cohkka

Again, you're missing the point, or you're incapable of comprehending/reading. In my case he warped in at 0, agressed, made his main warp and then warped out himself while noone was able to do **** other than bumping him. It's an emergence button you click when you screw up and odds are you'll die a quick death.




Seems to me you were flying low sig str ships and you got jammed, on another day he may miss all 3 and get melted along with his main or you may have a hic/dic with you and keep him around long enough to miss a cycle and get killed.

If eve was totally predictable it would be boring ans pointless.

Originally by: Cohkka
It's MUCH like having a full rack of WCS AND ECM fitted with the exception that it requires a second account.


So in other words its nothing really like it as it does not give a gaurenteed effect like WCS and it needs a second account fully trained up for a T2 ship instead of being a simple module you can fit in any low slot....

You missed out on a kill cos your ships got jammed, suck it up and move on.

ECCM needs a adjustment but ecm is fine.

Ay'Not Sivad
Minmatar
ISK or DIE
Posted - 2009.03.22 16:45:00 - [230]
 

Originally by: The Tzar
When you're jammed you can still tank, MWD, warp away and drones via auto-agression.

When you are scrammed and damped you may lose lock you definately wont be warping or going anywhere fast.

When you are neuted you can't do anywthing accept slowboat, missile or projectile.

Three statements, three recons..., I think I'd prefer to have the first one on me over the others... Rolling Eyes


Yeah, and if only the falcon/rook was forced to stay within 30-40km's like all the other ones, then I'd be on your side. let's see here, arazu: omg, I have an afterburner(like the majority of people after the nano-nerf), and I'm in a battlecruiser with long range targeting trained past lvl 3, bye bye arazu. then you have the rapier pilot: he sits under 24km's if he doesn't want to drop 80m on a better disruptor, and with two of his mid-slots devoted to you you, only lose about 80% of your speed(lol). enough said about the rapier. then you have the pilgrim, which empties his own cap to empty yours, can MAYBE fit a 200 dps lol-hp tank that will get ripped apart by anything that can keep it's guns running for longer than 20 seconds. the only ''somewhat redeeming factor'' of the pilgrim, is that since you're forced to fight under 10-12km's anyway, you might as well use a scrambler.

putting this into a scenario where it isn't gank vs 1 or something like that, I'd rather be attacked by a arazu/rapier/pilgrim + armageddon gang, than a falcon+geddon gang... ANY DAY. I love all these people arguing for a ship that they fly, but they don't actually know what they're flying. when you can pick any ship in eve at random, and then be forced to choose the best ship to go with it, and the falcon is the logical choice for over 95% of situations, then you know you have a problem(and I only refrain from saying 100%, because I know there's alot of ****tards on these forums that will call out a shuttle or something for the first ship)


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