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Farrellus Cameron
Sturmgrenadier Inc
Nulli Secunda
Posted - 2009.03.09 21:54:00 - [31]
 

What happened to giving the new advanced NPC AI to officers?

Mioelnir
Minmatar
Cataclysm Enterprises
Ev0ke
Posted - 2009.03.09 22:10:00 - [32]
 

Originally by: Ikar Kaltin
You say that npc's in 0.1-0.4 will now include battleships. How have some 0.0 regions been adjusted to match this? On the test server we have seen upto 950k isk bounty battleships in low sec, whilst at current this is the maximum in most of the Providence region. These changes kinda make places like Providence very "meh", 0.0 region but ores not better than low sec, and now npcs not better than low sec apart from the occasional 1.1mil bounty bs in the lower true sec systems.

Have the lower end 0.0 regions had their npcs adjusted in any way to stay improved over low sec?


I second this question.

Jarnis McPieksu
H A V O C
Against ALL Authorities
Posted - 2009.03.09 22:29:00 - [33]
 

Originally by: CCP Gangleri
Edited by: CCP Gangleri on 09/03/2009 21:38:27
Originally by: Merouk Baas
My only feedback is please keep in mind that good AI comes with a scale of "this NPC is dumb" to "this NPC is very smart", and that even PVP, most of it is fought with "stupid" so to speak. We aren't, all of us, aces of space flight.

So, yeah, the sleepers are "end-game content", boss-level NPCs, but at the same time, take a page from other MMOs and realize that they have entry-level raids and higher-tier raids, and the AI in the entry-level ones isn't as brilliant as the AI in the higher tiers.

Also, the NPC's do cheat: they MWD to range, they don't have the DPS/range limitations that players do, it's been mentioned above. And these things were put in place in order to offset the suck of the previous (dumb) AI.

Now that the AI is smarter, you need to remove these differences, otherwise fights aren't fun (in the same way that fighting someone who uses exploits isn't fun). I believe that's a very strong feeling in your playerbase, and I think you need to deal with this at a higher priority than you seem to currently give it.


Sleepers do not become more stupid in the 'shallow end' of wormhole space, they do less damage and appear in smaller gangs however. Which is also the progression of all the other PvE content in this game. We were not worried that players would lose because they were too stupid to figure out a way to win, we were more concerned with making the easiest encounters soloable. No matter how stupid you make the hardest Sleeper encounter you would still not be able to solo it.

Again I would like to point out that attributes of NPCs are not the same as the AI/controlling mechanism/intelligent agent. Your logic is also backwards when you use MWD'ing rats as an example, MWD was disallowed in deadspace areas because they made it very easy to 'outsmart' the NPC. If you find a wormhole plex that disallows MWD then please bug report it.

edit: spelling


I don't mind the harder AI - the normal rat spawns were dumb as a brick.

But harder AI combined with mass spawns makes small time fighting (1-3 person gangs) suicidal.

I'm fine with the theory that 1 BS against 1 sleeper BS should be a real fight. Problem is, the spawns I've found so far go like this;

5 cruisers + 5 frigates + 4 sentry towers
3 battleship + 8 frigates

etc.

One or two ships against spawns like this with non-dumb-as-brick AI is harsh. How about giving us some FAIR ODDS. Like 2-4 ship spawns instead of these 10+ ship piles. Old missions needed those piles because the stuff was a complete joke 1vs1 and now you have transplanted this mass spawn idea to the new stuff. It's not fun.

I'd love to try to fight against 1 or 2 sleeper battleships in a battleship. Or a sleeper BS plus 2 frigates. That would be a fight. 10+ enemies blobbing is just silly and requires considerable gang to take on.

It takes quite a bit of effort to organize such gangs, not to mention all the mess about sharing loot and/or sharing losses in case someone gets popped taking "one for the team", so to speak.

Better AI = good. Better AI + NPC blobs of 10+ ships = crap.

Misaki Yuuko
Caldari
Posted - 2009.03.09 22:36:00 - [34]
 

I'm sorry to say, and I know what you mean when you say they 'do not cheat', but as long as they play with a different (and better) set of characteristics they will be *cheating* (by this I mean torpedos which hit for full damage at 100km, or sniper lazors which make damage and track like a blaster BS and that type of stuff, plus all the ewar stuff you allready commented and neuts running at unrealistic ranges etc.).

IMO you should center on variance and unpredictability rather than on impossible capabilities to make them harder. This means varied and random fleets compositions, like heavy taklers at close range and pounding sniping BSes or close range gankers, or whatever. Also you are trying to emulate PvP at the 'large fleet' scale (no active tanks, buffer passive tanks and RRing), but in the future I would like solo 1 vs 1 BS fights active tanking i.e. (when they are vulnerable to cap warfare and other ewar), and small gang warfare; also I would like them to be really comparable to humans on a 1 on 1 basis (so no BC enganging 4 cruisers and 4 frigates), but if I get it right there are levels for the NPCs so maybe the harder ones are comparable on 1 on 1 basis.

I know, EVE combat is quite dull (this is not a space sim or even arcadish spaceship game), and where it shines is on fitting and gang tactics, but there is still some individual stuff that can make it more of a challenge when playing in small gangs, aproachign and maximizing transversal oand your own tracking (you did a good job with frigates on this), overheating managment and other stuff, but for this we need NPCs which are closer to what human fits do.

About drone aggro, I'll tell you (and you know allready) there is no human gang which can/bothers to coordinate alpha strikes on drones, drones are usuefull pvp tools in all sort of pvp, even on large fleets (sentries and support fighting), take this in mind, don't make all them target a single drone at once and it would be fine I guess.

In any case good work and keep workign at them, thanks.

Merouk Baas
Gallente
Posted - 2009.03.09 23:04:00 - [35]
 

Edited by: Merouk Baas on 09/03/2009 23:05:37

More issues that I have with the design, sorry:

1. The easiest encounters can be soloable, that's fine. But if the encounter is not designed to be soloable, here's the problem: in a many-vs-many fight there are casualties on both sides, and this game is... frustrating... when it comes to getting back to the area where the fight was. Especially with these wormholes that close up behind you or whatever. There's no rez spell (not that there should be one), and the entryway may be closed, so no flying back in either. Not fun.

2. We can't tell, by looking at the wormhole, what will be behind it, right? So it's a blind situation, an FC won't even know what fleet composition to bring in for his "do or wipeout" mission, unless they send a scout in. I suppose that'll make newbies "desirable for PVE fleets", though I think they get awfully tired of always getting the **** / suicide roles. In any case, it's still a race to call everyone to log the hell in before the wormhole closes up, so you can have a suitable fleet, which isn't fun either.

3. I think you'll have issues with how heavily these things get farmed, eventually, but that's a discussion for later.

1Of9
Gallente
The Circle
White Noise.
Posted - 2009.03.09 23:42:00 - [36]
 

Edited by: 1Of9 on 09/03/2009 23:42:16
Originally by: Jarnis McPieksu
Originally by: CCP Gangleri
Edited by: CCP Gangleri on 09/03/2009 21:38:27
Originally by: Merouk Baas

So, yeah, the sleepers are "end-game content", boss-level NPCs, but at the same time, take a page from other MMOs and realize that they have entry-level raids and higher-tier raids, and the AI in the entry-level ones isn't as brilliant as the AI in the higher tiers.

Also, the NPC's do cheat: they MWD to range, they don't have the DPS/range limitations that players do, it's been mentioned above. And these things were put in place in order to offset the suck of the previous (dumb) AI.

Now that the AI is smarter, you need to remove these differences, otherwise fights aren't fun (in the same way that fighting someone who uses exploits isn't fun). I believe that's a very strong feeling in your playerbase, and I think you need to deal with this at a higher priority than you seem to currently give it.


Sleepers do not become more stupid in the 'shallow end' of wormhole space, they do less damage and appear in smaller gangs however. Which is also the progression of all the other PvE content in this game. We were not worried that players would lose because they were too stupid to figure out a way to win, we were more concerned with making the easiest encounters soloable. No matter how stupid you make the hardest Sleeper encounter you would still not be able to solo it.

Again I would like to point out that attributes of NPCs are not the same as the AI/controlling mechanism/intelligent agent. Your logic is also backwards when you use MWD'ing rats as an example, MWD was disallowed in deadspace areas because they made it very easy to 'outsmart' the NPC. If you find a wormhole plex that disallows MWD then please bug report it.

edit: spelling


I don't mind the harder AI - the normal rat spawns were dumb as a brick.

But harder AI combined with mass spawns makes small time fighting (1-3 person gangs) suicidal.

I'm fine with the theory that 1 BS against 1 sleeper BS should be a real fight. Problem is, the spawns I've found so far go like this;

5 cruisers + 5 frigates + 4 sentry towers
3 battleship + 8 frigates

etc.

One or two ships against spawns like this with non-dumb-as-brick AI is harsh. How about giving us some FAIR ODDS. Like 2-4 ship spawns instead of these 10+ ship piles. Old missions needed those piles because the stuff was a complete joke 1vs1 and now you have transplanted this mass spawn idea to the new stuff. It's not fun.

I'd love to try to fight against 1 or 2 sleeper battleships in a battleship. Or a sleeper BS plus 2 frigates. That would be a fight. 10+ enemies blobbing is just silly and requires considerable gang to take on.

It takes quite a bit of effort to organize such gangs, not to mention all the mess about sharing loot and/or sharing losses in case someone gets popped taking "one for the team", so to speak.

Better AI = good. Better AI + NPC blobs of 10+ ships = crap.



/signed

This blobs of sleepers with the amazing (well above pod pilots abilitly's) DPS makes sleepers a suicide and not fun at all.

Basically you are saying "if you want to complete a site, blob it".

imo:

- sleepers lock too fast (way faster than a pod pilot)
- sleepers remote rep are too strong and as far as i saw, no range issues, where t2 large remote armor reps have well limited ranges
- sleepers web @ 40km. where the hell can a pod pilot do this in a BS or frig?
- sleepers dps is waaaay overpowered. no way a pod pilot even officer guns and officer damage mods can get that dps. i was testing with a kronos, i had 80% explosive resist on armor and each sleeper cruiser missile was doing above 1000 damage per missiel.

Improved AI = good
Blob = bad
Amaizing dps = unfair and bad

Typhado3
Minmatar
Posted - 2009.03.10 00:34:00 - [37]
 

Originally by: Bartholomeus Crane
ai stuff


Ok just starting studying AI so still a noob in this area but I have a couple thoughts on this.

First off this list is probably similar to what many fc's do, as most fc's will already have decided before battle what targets go down first (falcons, stealth bombers logistics). There would be some additional commands like trying to orbit up close to the sniper etc. but I think the list do sufficient for now, improving it so it could react better to surprises the enemy brings would be good but not necessary.

However I think there could be room to add AI in, but rather than going for individual AI create a AI for an entire faction that takes the logs of pve battles analyzes them and uses that to update or create a new list of actions. If possible you could also give this the option of changing some ship's around so if they know they are going up against mostly missile users in a specific region the faction AI would increase the number of ships with defender missiles in that area. Or if everyone is using heavy tanked scorpions as they are always primaried it would lower the scorpion on the list of primary targets.

Chainsaw Plankton
IDLE GUNS
IDLE EMPIRE
Posted - 2009.03.10 01:20:00 - [38]
 

What have you done!??!?!?!

I liked Johnson, he was a good man Sad

Merouk Baas
Gallente
Posted - 2009.03.10 01:30:00 - [39]
 

Originally by: 1Of9
This blobs of sleepers with the amazing (well above pod pilots abilitly's) DPS makes sleepers a suicide and not fun at all.

Basically you are saying "if you want to complete a site, blob it".



Actually, it does sound like they're trying for what they originally intended to implement: "raid" PVE encounters.

To me all this sounds like the typical WoW boss engagement: the boss DPS will kill anyone it hits (that's why they have a tank, and the tank is being multi-healed), and you have other NPC's in the room with crowd control / jamming that you have to deal with.

Unfortunately, the typical boss fight in WoW is: half your team dies, but you rez them up then split the loot, and there are no niceties like that in EVE.

Typical PVP fight in EVE is the same way, half your team dies, and hopefully ALL of the enemy dies or runs away. And that's ok for PVP, cause fights happen for various reasons, but when LOOT is the reward, well, that's different.

Anyway, the player base has no experience with how to deal with the blobs of "smart" AI. We'll get some, just takes time. And then the encounters that are doable / profitable will get done, those that aren't won't. I expect a spike of interest followed by a complete lack of, but we'll see.

General Meridus
Minmatar
Posted - 2009.03.10 17:11:00 - [40]
 

Originally by: Merouk Baas



To me all this sounds like the typical WoW boss engagement: the boss DPS will kill anyone it hits (that's why they have a tank, and the tank is being multi-healed), and you have other NPC's in the room with crowd control / jamming that you have to deal with.

Unfortunately, the typical boss fight in WoW is: half your team dies, but you rez them up then split the loot, and there are no niceties like that in EVE.




Perhaps you should at least see a Sleeper, before you compare the content to WoW. WoW? Give us a break.

Sade Onyx
Posted - 2009.03.10 17:55:00 - [41]
 

I dont get it! - you start again by saying the AI doesnt cheat. Then you later confirm that they dont run out cap. This is cheating!

Im really struggling with this, so please see past my frustration and help me understand.

I get that you dont want to spend time on one thing, until something else is sorted. It does take time to develop or create something new. Understand. This is what I dont understand, ALL ships in eve that we produce, fly, fight in and die in runs out of Cap! - its a core mechanic, ships, run out of cap! So the NPC ships must be different, someone has gone against the grain, against everything we know about ships and has forced somthing into the game which means NPC ships dont run out of cap.

So why cant you just give the npcs the same ships that we fly? - surly it must hurt the database to have a duplicate ships which look exactly the same and yet are different. Your always going on about not wanting to overinflate the database, and yet there must be an entire database just on the NPC ships.

So going back, while we understand that it takes time to develop and ADD new stuff, surly it cant be that hard to remove stuff?

Cap is probably the most important thing new pilots must understand, so I dont understand why npc's where made this way.

Hugh Ruka
Exploratio et Industria Morispatia
Posted - 2009.03.10 18:47:00 - [42]
 

Edited by: Hugh Ruka on 10/03/2009 18:47:48
exactly ... What have you done ???

1. improved NPC AI - fine, was a long awaited feature
2. used the usual NPC blobs and NPC stats with this new AI - bad
3. IMPROVED NPC stats with new AI - bad

basicaly it seems you do not understand your own game. you don't even have a clue what makes a fun game anymore.

PvP is all about destruction. You cannot profit on PvP unless you gain some resources you can rebuild from. Typicaly PvP engagements are more or less chaotic (even with good information and FCs) and short lived (when you get poped).

Now you transported this into a logistical nightmare system (no jump bridges, cyno jumps, carriers etc for support). Options ?

1. go solo to W space, hit the wrong spawn (which you have NO OPTION to scour beforehand) and die quickly
2. blob the hell out of it (well if the wormhole permits the blob to pass)

so much for fun ...

oh btw you can go on a roam to lowsec with a t1 frig and have some fun, you can even kill people in it. makes for much better game than sleepers.

Amira Silvermist
The Aegis Militia
Aegis Militia
Posted - 2009.03.10 19:04:00 - [43]
 

Edited by: Amira Silvermist on 10/03/2009 19:04:26
Originally by: Ikar Kaltin
You say that npc's in 0.1-0.4 will now include battleships. How have some 0.0 regions been adjusted to match this? On the test server we have seen upto 950k isk bounty battleships in low sec, whilst at current this is the maximum in most of the Providence region. These changes kinda make places like Providence very "meh"


Providence more "meh" then before?

CCP
Making impossible things happen since 1997!


Razz

Aerieth
Posted - 2009.03.10 19:10:00 - [44]
 

Sleepers DONT cheat, they do not know your fittings or other things a regular pod pilot would know.

Now towards this webbing at 40km ... THEY ARE A FREAKING ADVANCED RACE.

They have developed 40km web technology, just because we don't have it doesn't mean anyone else can't.

The sleepers are supposed to be hard, they are supposed to be fought by large fleets, It has been this way since its been planned. The following is from this PRE Apocrypha blog post
Quote:
... More often than not, they will give you some substiantial bang for your buck and will require player gang coordination and effort to be dispatched.


Also I would like to point out that even though they can't run out of cap YET they will, it was deemed less important than other aspects but will be implemented in future releases.

Aerieth

Patripassion
Posted - 2009.03.10 19:49:00 - [45]
 

*buffs lowsec and empire*

*is surprised at vitriol from the nullsec players that have been completely ignored*

evs
Paladin Order
Tread Alliance
Posted - 2009.03.10 20:26:00 - [46]
 

Originally by: Patripassion
*buffs lowsec and empire*

*is surprised at vitriol from the nullsec players that have been completely ignored*


*has found someone who has never been to providence...

Lincoln Armm
Posted - 2009.03.10 21:32:00 - [47]
 

Its perfectly possible to scout sleeper locations. Just use a cloaked Covert Ops. Scan for their locations, jump in cloaked bm the ones you can beat. then come back in some heavy iron.

If you can't fly a covert ops well then use a really fast frig or a throw away


waruiushiro
Ice Fire Warriors
Posted - 2009.03.10 22:27:00 - [48]
 

Originally by: Aerieth
Sleepers DONT cheat, they do not know your fittings or other things a regular pod pilot would know.

Now towards this webbing at 40km ... THEY ARE A FREAKING ADVANCED RACE.

They have developed 40km web technology, just because we don't have it doesn't mean anyone else can't.

The sleepers are supposed to be hard, they are supposed to be fought by large fleets, It has been this way since its been planned. The following is from this PRE Apocrypha blog post
Quote:
... More often than not, they will give you some substiantial bang for your buck and will require player gang coordination and effort to be dispatched.


Also I would like to point out that even though they can't run out of cap YET they will, it was deemed less important than other aspects but will be implemented in future releases.

Aerieth


Hey hey, someone who is capable of rationalization and adaptation, rather than knee-jerk whining and CCP bashing. PERHAPS IT IS YOU WHO IS THE ADVANCED RACE??

waruiushiro
Ice Fire Warriors
Posted - 2009.03.10 22:27:00 - [49]
 

Edited by: waruiushiro on 10/03/2009 23:03:17
PS - To those whining about how unfair the Sleepers are, please go to your convenient local market hub system and post "WTB Clue" in local repeatedly.

Stop solo-farming and whining when said solo-farming becomes impossible to transplant elsewhere due to intentionally designed game mechanics. If going it alone or refusing to adapt is your thing, then stick to grinding those 4's and GTFO wormhole space.

Seriously, if this expansion went through and everyone was immediately and merrily tanking their way though hordes of buffed NPCs while being showered with money, then what would be the frakkin point?

Chainsaw Plankton
IDLE GUNS
IDLE EMPIRE
Posted - 2009.03.11 02:03:00 - [50]
 

Edited by: Chainsaw Plankton on 11/03/2009 05:11:03
Originally by: Patripassion
*buffs lowsec and empire*

*is surprised at vitriol from the nullsec players that have been completely ignored*


0.0 rats got buffed Wink

so I'm used to seeing at max 950k bs and saw a few 1.1 bs and got excited, and a dread spawn in my first round (ammo and tag).... the rats overall blow fat chunks of *insert not very nice things here*

just did 26ish mil over the last 3 hours, 12.5 of that was in the first hour. Confused

I would rather go run empire level 4s....

Asdohol
Posted - 2009.03.11 04:28:00 - [51]
 

Edited by: Asdohol on 11/03/2009 04:28:05
If u do not like the idea of wormholes do not go there simple :)

Hugh Ruka
Exploratio et Industria Morispatia
Posted - 2009.03.11 08:54:00 - [52]
 

Originally by: Aerieth
Sleepers DONT cheat, they do not know your fittings or other things a regular pod pilot would know.

Now towards this webbing at 40km ... THEY ARE A FREAKING ADVANCED RACE.

They have developed 40km web technology, just because we don't have it doesn't mean anyone else can't.

The sleepers are supposed to be hard, they are supposed to be fought by large fleets, It has been this way since its been planned. The following is from this PRE Apocrypha blog post
Quote:
... More often than not, they will give you some substiantial bang for your buck and will require player gang coordination and effort to be dispatched.


Also I would like to point out that even though they can't run out of cap YET they will, it was deemed less important than other aspects but will be implemented in future releases.

Aerieth


realy ? and the advanced sleeper technology is introducing you to PvP combat ? RIGHT ? like you come to the conclusion that the best tactic is to blob them ... great learning experience there ...

rciq
Posted - 2009.03.11 11:32:00 - [53]
 

Daddy, teh monsters r too difficultCrying or Very sadCrying or Very sadCrying or Very sad!!!!1!!11one

Syekuda
Hell's Revenge
Posted - 2009.03.11 12:26:00 - [54]
 

To the dev: since we can find and go in a wormhole space and destroy NPC sleepers, is it possible that, when we find one and open a wormhole, sleepers might come to k-space and go in asteroid fields, stations or stargate and attack people ? That would be so awesome.

If you think about it, it makes sense that if we open a wormhole, they could come in as we could go in their space.

Misaki Yuuko
Caldari
Posted - 2009.03.11 12:27:00 - [55]
 

And this is what happens when yo overdo drone aggro...

Yeah, intelligent humans would do this, attack the swarm of drones instead of the ships mangaing them. Fix this or let the happy farming begin.

Communis
Posted - 2009.03.11 20:05:00 - [56]
 

Originally by: Rivqua
You say soloing is viable .


Just limped out of W-space and have come to the realization that solo exploration, my main gig, is decidedly not viable. my cruiser dead in two volleys and my drake in structure in three means this expansion is for fleets only. It's disappointing considering how much I enjoy this game. My job keeps me from consistent play which is why I solo. Up until now I felt that as a solo player almost everything was available. No longer... Maybe it's time to consider another game.

Jazmyne Lee
Posted - 2009.03.11 23:23:00 - [57]
 

I have not had the chance to try worm hole space yet. as UNI and work taken my time up.

I would however like to know off players that have killed sleepers and returned what is the pay off.

i would think if i took the time to go to wormhole space with 3 ships 150mil or more in fittings and ships, that in a hour if i don't die in a fight i can walk out with that in isk. or the risk vs the cost is not good enuf.

i mean I solo almost everything in eve and found that even before wormholes i had to have 2 or 3 char's going at once to do a lot of stuff solo. does this mean that for me to Solo i need to take all my char's to wormhole space.

Hard work playing eve solo. I know it's a MMO but i don't play eve cos there other people in the game I play eve because every year you add stuff to the game always changing always new stuff to find and learn. but if you are going to force all solo eve players to only the less parts of the the game then one day we will all get bored and leave. Please don't do that.


Uzume Ame
Gallente
Posted - 2009.03.12 00:45:00 - [58]
 

The isk you will earn is determined by the market, no bounties, just goods (sleeper salavage, gas harvesting, hacking stuff, etc.).

Garia666
Amarr
T.H.U.G L.I.F.E
Xenon-Empire
Posted - 2009.03.12 08:44:00 - [59]
 

Originally by: CCP Ytterbium
Originally by: el caido
Edited by: el caido on 09/03/2009 17:46:12

I lol'd.

EDIT: This should be written as 'This AI does not cheat in any way that the current NPCs do not.' Regardless, I am still looking forward to it. Good work, CCP.


Well no, actually the AI doesn't, since it doesn't instantly knows your ship fittings and weaknesses, it reacts to player actions according to how big of a threat one is. As expressed in the blog, the problem remains with some NPC attributes that just cannot be altered at the moment by player modules, which will be looked into in the future.


what happens when you repair them?

SlaveTransport Kiriin
Wrath Enterprise
Posted - 2009.03.12 14:31:00 - [60]
 

Originally by: Rivqua


And what people refer to when they say "cheating" is things like 40-100km webbers/scramblers, torpedoes (heard this was changed?) and such. Also that their targeting range is so long that stacking penalties prevent you from dampening it to any usable amount.

Not cheating would be that battleships having to use "low dmg ammo / low tracking guns" to hit to 100km, and doing like 100dps at that range. Or not being able to use neuts at 50km.

That's what people referr to when they say npcs cheat.


The npc's cheat.


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