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blankseplocked Lag vs lag combat! The saga of a frigate who wanted to die
 
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L'Ming
Posted - 2004.08.12 15:38:00 - [1]
 

My first battle was last night! Yay!

Ok, so Iím coming in to a station, and an enemy Taranis pops out the other side. No worries, thinks I, itís not far to dock and Iíve got some magically delicious ECM strapped on to my travel-mode Incursus for just this sort of situation. In we cruise, precioussss.

So, bad man comes burning about, ready for biff. We mutually lock, range drops to a couple of kays. I chuckle and casually activate my ECM burst and, just for good measure, my multi-spec ECM. I tell my drone to launch.

This is when the badness happens. My ECM doesnít seem to be coming on, the little buttons stay resolutely un-green. I frown, but I donít press the buttons again Ďcause experience suggests that this just switches Ďem back off again when the lag catches up.

I start getting pounded on, and I get hit by a warp scrambler. Still, no worries, Ďcause Iíll be docking in about 2 seconds. My drone decides to make an appearance, but it also decides that it is actually a rail-gun bolt and goes flying off into space at MWD speed.

Oh wait, Iíve been webbed too. Hey, no message to tell me Iíve been webbed, thatís not so polite, but the speedo doesnít lie. Doesnít really matter, Iíve still got 120m/s under me, call it 5 seconds to dock now. Oh hey! My multi-spec ECM just turned on. Still no word on the Burst, but it doesnít look like Iíll need it now. Shields are gone but thereís still a bit of armour left.

Blam Ė my ship teleports backwards about 2 km, complete with engine trail. This is not so good - I canít survive 15-odd seconds of this. Címon that ECM burst! Go you good thing!

Oh, Iím dead. At least the control panel looks like a podís control panel, though I apparently do not have a capacitor and I still look like an Incursus. Hmm, and Iím not moving. Nothing is moving. Certainly my attempt to assign a warp target is not giving me anything resembling a menu box.

Here we go Ė my pod suddenly appears, in perfect health. I get to tell it to jump, huzzah! It (naturally) ignores me for a couple of seconds, flies sedately forward for a bit, and then explodes, as a pod is of course built to do.

Sigh.

I am not terribly impressed. Sure, Iím playing on a 56k line from Australia, so Iím expecting, um, a ďchallengeĒ. Iíve played Jumpgate (both US and EU) and Darkspace with the same setup, and it is a disadvantage but itís not impossible to fight. In Eve, though, I was essentially helpless despite almost perfect conditions Ė two ships in space, maybe 3 drones. The sector was, according to Local, almost empty (4 pilots). My manoeuvring consisted entirely of ďDockĒ (and an eventual attempt to warp), and as far as I can see my opponent either hit the ďApproachĒ or a very close ďOrbitĒ. This was, surely, not a vastly complex dance of death for the server to deal with.

Iím off to write up a big fat slab of fun suggestions (in particular, macros), but I think the problem is a biggie. I donít know if itís the prediction Ė I mean, when most of the flying is done by auto-pilot settings like Orbit and Approach, and the weapons are all stat vs stat, surely the server can get a pretty good idea about how the entire battle is going to go. Maybe itís the network coding. Maybe it was just a bizarre and unusual choke somewhere down the line. It was, however, Not Fun.

This does not mean Iím leaving Eve. Nothing of the sort. Itís a hell cool game, there are plenty of non-combat things I could enjoy, and it works pretty good for some (most?) people Ė certainly it worked much better for my opponent, and there are battles going on all the time. But Iíve seen it done better, I know that it can be done better. So, with all due respect and as an otherwise vastly satisfied customer, please CCP, could you make it better?

In the mean time, it is still an honour and a pleasure to give you my money.

Ghosthunter
Posted - 2004.08.12 15:45:00 - [2]
 

lol..that sucked,..but cmon you didnt expected to kill inty in incursus, did you, shouldnt had undocked in 1st place....yea 56k sux bad timeSad

L'Ming
Posted - 2004.08.12 15:58:00 - [3]
 

:)

1. I wasn't trying to beat it, I was trying to dock.
2. I didn't undock, I was trying to dock.

DedGuy
Millennium
Posted - 2004.08.12 16:33:00 - [4]
 

56k in england, and it happens to me also.... when a few patches back, i used to be able to the 60-ship fleet battles with a reasonable amount of lag.

One of the things that CCP are trying to solve, apparently.

Suck tbh, hate been relegated from pvp.....

Pandora Panda
Caldari
Posted - 2004.08.12 16:45:00 - [5]
 

Stations will not allow you to dock if you've used an aggressive module on someone in the past minute or so. ECM and drones are aggressive modules.

Since a Multispec isnt enough to keep a taranis jammed, and a Burst is basically worthless against a competent taranis pilot, you were not escaping that situation, even with a lag-less experience. It might have saved your pod though.

As for the cause of the lag.... it was definately connection lag. EVE has pretty poor prediction for a MMORPG, but a dial-up modem halfway around the world kind of has to expect massive latency. Try hitting Ctrl+Alt+Shift+M to bring up the monitor window so you can see network activity in realtime.

Tristan
Minmatar
Vengeance of the Fallen
Curse Alliance
Posted - 2004.08.12 16:47:00 - [6]
 

My god.

I cannot believe you people.

Seriously.

You are on a steam driven tracktor (56k) expecting it to keep up with a Maclaren F1.

And whining because it wont do it. These are the same people who buy Battlefield Vietnam, and other such games, that PLAINLY state a Broadband connection is required on the box, buy it anyway, then join your servers and whine that their 650ms ping just isnt fair "an y'all haxing"

Then proceed to stay on the server anyway, and lag everyone else to death with their selfish latency.

Im sorry, but have to be blunt here. Your 56k performed AS EXPECTED.

its 56k, if your stuck on it because of location issues that must really suck yes, i agree with you. But niether is it the rest of the player bases fault because we dont live in remote or uncabled / un fibered areas. and equally nor is it the fault of the devs.

Dont have the graphics and complexity of yet another game messed up a' la' BF 1942 just because

"it wont work on my out of date technology, lets turn the game back 10years and screw everyone else who actually has some RAM, a decent GPU, some processor other than a PII, a connection speed that was DESIGNED to do something other than just load text documents"

Yes its brutal, yes its cutting, but yes its the truth.

i am sick and tired of johnny PII whining loudly about different online games untilt he devs cave in and make it a pile of cack for everyone else just to suit.

"DOOM3 wont play online with my 28k modem and my 64mb - PC100, PII PC, waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa!"

Can you not possibly at least get an ISDN line or equivilent, if you live in a cabled or ADSL enabled area you can quite often find a 256kbs conection for just a small amount more a month than some dialup subscrition to AOL or Wanadoo per month. Worth looking at.

Quagmire
Ars Caelestis
Curse Alliance
Posted - 2004.08.12 16:49:00 - [7]
 

Not a nice experience at all. My few personal experiences with PvP in EVE have told me that lag is the biggest weapon. It's simply no fun to lose a battleship because your modules aren't seemingly switching on while you're being pounded from all sides. I don't understand how people in fleet battles have any fun: they must just attempt to activate whatever modules they have and then sit back and watch the slideshow to see who lives and who dies.

And it's even WORSE if you're getting lag because you're on the wrong side of some router or wire, and the people you're attacking have no lag whatsoever. The battle's over before it's even begun.

Quagmire
Ars Caelestis
Curse Alliance
Posted - 2004.08.12 16:55:00 - [8]
 

Edited by: Quagmire on 12/08/2004 16:57:23
Quote:

Im sorry, but have to be blunt here. Your 56k performed AS EXPECTED.



Rot. I've monitored my net connection while performing normal stuff in EVE and it's been a couple of hundred bytes per second - well within the limit of a 56k modem. In fact, I played EVE on a 56K modem for several months before getting broadband, and I *still* get slideshows when something interesting is happening, despite the fact that my net connection is now 10 times the speed. Oh, and did I mention I live in England, where the servers are situated? I would bet it's simply that the servers can't process the game data coming from the client machines and push the results out quick enough. Throw a few long-distance links and plenty of network kit between you and the server and you're probably going to get a bad gaming experience all the time, especially when there's a lot going on.

Joshua Calvert
Caldari
Rule One
Posted - 2004.08.12 16:55:00 - [9]
 

I have to agree with Tristan.

People willingly accept they need to upgrade their cpu/memory/video card to play the next big-new-game but seem completely unwilling to upgrade their net connection.

Can't get ADSL? Tough luck.

ADSL should be considering the standard for internet games by now because optimizing for 56k users clearly holds things back for ADSL+ users.

L'Ming
Posted - 2004.08.12 17:13:00 - [10]
 

Originally by: Joshua Calvert
I have to agree with Tristan.

People willingly accept they need to upgrade their cpu/memory/video card to play the next big-new-game but seem completely unwilling to upgrade their net connection.

Can't get ADSL? Tough luck.

ADSL should be considering the standard for internet games by now because optimizing for 56k users clearly holds things back for ADSL+ users.


Uh, as has been pointed out by others, Eve used to work with 56k. As I said in my post, I've played realtime games similar to Eve based with the same set up, and it's worked pretty well. Don't tell me it can't be done - it can. I know exactly what I can expect from my 56k, thanks, and Eve most certainly does not cut it.

...and does Eve say that it needs ADSL? No. 56k players pay money that's worth just as much as high-speeders. Let's take a look at the specs, as advertised:

---
Minimal hardware:
CPU: PIII - 450 MHZ or higher
RAM Memory: 128MB (256MB for 2000/XP)
Hard Drive Capacity: 1 GB
Connection: 56k modem or faster
[...]

Recommended system for optimal performance:
Processor: P4 1GHz+
RAM Memory: 256MB or higher
3D Accelerator: 64MB or higher video card
---

Hmmm, no mention of ADSL.

Do I expect the game to be just as good on the minimal advertised specs? No, and I said that in my post. Do I expect a game I'm paying for to be playable? Yes, yes I do.

Do you guys seriously think I'm wrong to expect that?

Mr Blonde
Amarr
Posted - 2004.08.12 17:38:00 - [11]
 

Originally by: Tristan
My god.

I cannot believe you people.

Seriously.

You are on a steam driven tracktor (56k) expecting it to keep up with a Maclaren F1

etc etc bla bla bla


You are aware that up till 3 patches ago 56k users could play huge fleet battles without any problems, and that since then not only 56k users but a lot of broadband users have been experiencing tons of lag??

Not only that, a lot of the games better pvpers are on 56k modems..

But ya.. whatever


Kenti Silvistrini
Freelancing Corp
Confederation of Independent Corporations
Posted - 2004.08.12 17:41:00 - [12]
 

Bleh, a game should do as it says on the tin. If it says ADSL/broadband only then fine. Eve however does not, it should be playable on a 56k.

For those ranting at people because they dont have a broadband connection, learn to live with the fact that the PC comes in many shapes, sizes and abilities. If you want to play on a platform that is geared 100% to the maximum potential of its hardware then go play a console. Eve states it supports a 56k connection, the chap in question is a paying customer using a setup that 'should' be adequate. End of story.

Rolling Eyes

L'Ming
Posted - 2004.08.12 17:56:00 - [13]
 

Thanks!
:)

Anyway, I didn't really mean the post to be a rant as such. I didn't realise that heaps of other people are having the same problem - I just went and read a pile of other posts on the subject. Sorry to spam a topic!

BTW, my intent in the fight was to jam the enemy so I'd break the stasis web and warp jam. A Taranis has a sensor of 6, so unless its last mid-slot was carrying a tech 2 ECCM then I think it would have worked. Regardless, in the event I was utterly helpless.

It's a tribute to the game, though, that I'd pay for Eve even as a defenceless mook. Smile


 

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