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Dawnstar
Gallente
Kiroshi Group
Exiliar Syndicate
Posted - 2004.08.12 01:50:00 - [1]
 

I've been doing a lot of thinking on the manufacturing process currently in place in Eve, and its effect upon the market. I've finally concluded that a key reason that manufacturers (and to a lesser extent sellers) have a tough time making a go of manufacturing is that there isn't enough variance in the cost of manufacturing goods. The Blueprint copy issue is partly to blame (it essentially removes having to recoup the cost of the blueprint from the equation). However, ultimately it still comes back to the lack of variety in manufacturing costs (even without BPCs there would come a point where multiple competitors have recouped their initial investment and would reduce prices).

Right now, there is only a 37.5% difference between the absolutely worst manufacturer and the best. That gap narrows considerably with a fairly minimal amount of time spent training production efficiency and researching the print. A character with PE3 and 5 levels of ME researched (both of which can be obtained with a fairly minimal investment of time) will drop that to under a 12% difference! A 12% margin of cost difference makes it real tough to make a profit when there is even a single competitor.

What needs to be done:
We need to have a fundamental change to alter how much waste occurs in the manufacturing process. Manufacturing costs need to vary more (in a manner similar to how refining was changed). The overall margin of how much skills and other factors affect the price needs to be widened considerably. A range of 100%-300% or more depending on your manufacturing skills, research, and other factors would make a significant impact on the manufacturing costs, and as a result, serious manufacturers would see a rise in the value of the services they provide (and they could likewise turn a better profit on their labors).

What follows is a fairly detailed suggestion/proposal on how to revise the system to give manufacturers more opportunities.

Dawnstar
Gallente
Kiroshi Group
Exiliar Syndicate
Posted - 2004.08.12 01:50:00 - [2]
 

Advanced Manufacturing and Research Skills

We need more skills, including a number that allow a wide range of specialization.

Implant Manufacturing (Rank 6) Required Skills: Industry 3. Cost: 1,000,000 ISK. Applies to manufacturing Implants
Cargo Manufacturing (Rank 6) Required Skills: Industry 3. Cost: 1,000,000 ISK. Applies to manufacturing Cargo Containers
Deployable Manufacturing (Rank 6) Required Skills: Industry 3. Cost: 1,000,000 ISK. Applies to manufacturing Deployable Structures
Ammunition Manufacturing (Rank 6) Required Skills: Industry 3. Cost: 1,000,000 ISK. Applies to manufacturing Ammunition and Charges
Drone Manufacturing (Rank 6) Required Skills: Industry 3. Cost: 1,000,000 ISK. Applies to manufacturing Drones
Armor Manufacturing (Rank 6) Required Skills: Industry 3. Cost: 1,000,000 ISK. Applies to manufacturing Hull and Armor systems
Propulsion Manufacturing (Rank 6) Required Skills: Industry 3. Cost: 1,000,000 ISK. Applies to manufacturing Propulsion systems
Electronics Manufacturing (Rank 6) Required Skills: Industry 3. Cost: 1,000,000 ISK. Applies to manufacturing Sensors and Electronic Warfare systems
Shield Manufacturing (Rank 6) Required Skills: Industry 3. Cost: 1,000,000 ISK. Applies to manufacturing Shield and Energy systems
Smart Bomb Manufacturing (Rank 6) Required Skills: Industry 3. Cost: 1,000,000 ISK. Applies to manufacturing Smart Bombs
Turret Manufacturing (Rank 6) Required Skills: Industry 3. Cost: 1,000,000 ISK. Applies to manufacturing Turrets and Bays
Frigate Manufacturing (Rank 6) Required Skills: Industry 3. Cost: 1,000,000 ISK. Applies to manufacturing Frigates
Industrial Manufacturing (Rank 6) Required Skills: Industry 3. Cost: 1,000,000 ISK. Applies to manufacturing Industrial Ships
Cruiser Manufacturing (Rank 6) Required Skills: Industry 3. Cost: 1,000,000 ISK. Applies to manufacturing Cruisers
Battleship Manufacturing (Rank 6) Required Skills: Industry 3. Cost: 1,000,000 ISK. Applies to manufacturing Battleships

The various manufacturing skills come into play to reduce the costs of manufacturing items in their manufacturing 'group'. Each level below 5 possessed increases the resources needed by 8%

Amarr Fabrication (rank 5): Required Skills: Industry 4, Mass Production 3. Cost: 3,000,000ISK. Every level below 5 increase the cost by 5%
Minmatar Fabrication (rank 5): Required Skills: Industry 4, Mass Production 3. Cost: 3,000,000ISK. Every level below 5 increase the cost by 5%
Caldari Fabrication (rank 5): Required Skills: Industry 4, Mass Production 3. Cost: 3,000,000ISK. Every level below 5 increase the cost by 5%
Gallente Fabrication (rank 5): Required Skills: Industry 4, Mass Production 3. Cost: 3,000,000ISK. Every level below 5 increase the cost by 5%
General Fabrication (rank 8): Required Skills: Industry 4, Mass Production 3. Cost: 4,000,000ISK. Every level below 5 increase the cost by 5%

The various fabrication skills come into play to reduce the costs of manufacturing items distinct to a particular empire (with general applying to items not specific to a particular race). Each level below 5 possessed increases the cost by 5%. Distinct to an Empire would obviously apply to ships, but could also apply to certain specialized modules as well.


Some other production and research skills to round things out:
Automated Production (rank 5) Required Skills: Industry 4, Mass Production 5. Cost: 3,000,000ISK. +1 additional factory per level.
Automated Laboratories (rank 7) Required Skills: Science 4, Laboratory Operation 5. Cost: 10,000,000ISK. +1 additional lab per level.
Industrial Efficiency (rank 5) Required Skills: Industry 5. Cost: 5,000,000ISK. +8% Manufacturing Speed per Level.
Advanced Metallurgy (rank 7) Required Skills: Metallurgy 5. Cost: 5,000,000ISK. +8% Mineral Research Speed per Level.
Mass Duplication (rank 8) Required Skills: Science 5. Cost: 10,000,000ISK. +8% BP Copy Speed.
Advanced Research (rank 5) Required Skills: Research 5. Cost: 5,000,000ISK. +8% Productivity Research Speed per Level.

Dawnstar
Gallente
Kiroshi Group
Exiliar Syndicate
Posted - 2004.08.12 01:51:00 - [3]
 

Edited by: Dawnstar on 12/08/2004 14:52:49
Edited by: Dawnstar on 12/08/2004 02:00:41
Blueprint Research

I would propose raising the design waste factors considerably. 40% instead of 10% seems like a reasonable number for tech 1, possibly with higher levels for tech 2 and beyond.

Changing the formula for how research affects waste would be good as well. I propose changing the formula to:
BW * BW / ( BW + ( ME / 100 ) )

Where BW is the base waste factor, and ME is the material efficiency of the item.

The above formula would require a number of ME levels equal to the 100 * the base waste (40 levels with my suggested changes) to cut the waste in half, whereas the present system requires only 1. This will overall increase the amount of research needed to kill off the design waste and make researching the print more valuable (and provide some more variety in input costs).

On a similar note altering the Productivity Research to have some meaningful value would also be good. Currently you can't knock off more than 5 seconds from the time to complete a run. It should be based on the amount of time it takes to manufacture something.

Changing the formula to:

Time = BT * BT / ( 60 * PL + BT )

This would allow more productiviety research to reduce the production time in a manner comparable to the above waste formula. This would allow a number of levels of productivity research equal to the base time in minutes to cut the time in half.

Dawnstar
Gallente
Kiroshi Group
Exiliar Syndicate
Posted - 2004.08.12 01:51:00 - [4]
 

Edited by: Dawnstar on 08/11/2004 17:57:00
Specializing the Factories and Labs.

Not every factory and lab should do equally well at every job. Consider having the factories owned by the various Corporations be specialized in how efficiently they can manufacture different goods. A factory set up to manufacture ammuntion isn't necessarily the best place to build a battleship, for example. Likewise the labs could have similar effects, with some labs specializing in some areas of research (IBM and Coca Cola don't use the same research labs for example). Adding waste factors to the efficiency of the factories labs at various tasks could add another variable to the mix. Perhaps something like this:

Each station has a manufacturing rating for each category of item which can be manufactured or researched. These numbers would modify the inputs required for building items, as well as the time. The values could range from .1 (for the items the facility isn't really set up to manufacture) to 1.0 (for items the facility is particularly adept at building).

For example, a station might have manufacturing ratings something like this:
Implant 1.0
Cargo .9
Deployable .9
Ammunition .6
Drone .7
Armor .7
Propulsion .8
Electronics .9
Shield .7
Smart Bomb .7
Turret .5
Frigate .9
Industrial .6
Cruiser .6
Battleship .4

The effect of a manufacturing rating could be something like:
Alter the inputs required so that the actual inputs are equal to (2 - MR) * inputs.
Alter the time needed so that the time to manufacture/research is equal to (4 - 3 * MR) * time.

A new skill to help with this might be in order as well:
Manufacturing Management (rank 9) Required skills: Corporation Management 4, Mass Production 4, Social 5. Improves the manufacturing rating of factories and labs you operate by 10% in all categories for each level (this improves the amount the rating is below 1, so in our example above, a character with level 1 would have effective manufacture ratings of .91 for cargo, 1.0 for implants, .46 for battleships)

Dawnstar
Gallente
Kiroshi Group
Exiliar Syndicate
Posted - 2004.08.12 01:51:00 - [5]
 

Edited by: Dawnstar on 12/08/2004 02:01:08
Bringing it all Together

The combined formulas would now look something like this with all the various pieces implemented:
Resources Used:
= FLOOR( BI * (1.25 - .05 * PE) * (1.25 * .05 * FAB) * (1.4 - .08 * MFG) * ( 1 * BW * BW / ( BW + ( ME / 100 ) ) ) * ( MR + (1 - MR) * MM ) )
where
BI = Base Input Quantity
PE = Levels of Production Efficiency Skill
FAB = Levels of Appropriate Fabrication Skill
MFG = Levels of Appropriate Manufacturing Skill
BW = Base Waste of Blueprint
ME = Number of Material Efficiency Levels researched on the blueprint
MR = Manufacturing Rating of station housing factory for appropriate item
MM = Levels of Manufacturing Management

Manufacturing Time:
= ( BT * BT / ( 60 * PL + BT ) ) * ( 1 - .05 * IND ) * ( 1 - .08 * IEFF ) * ( MR + (1 - MR) * MM )
Where
BT = Base Time
PL = Levels of Productivity Researched on the BP
IND = Levels of Industry Skill
IEFF = Levels of Industrial Efficiency Skill
MR = Manufacturing Rating of station housing factory for appropriate item
MM = Levels of Manufacturing Management

BP Mineral Research Time:
= BT * ( 1 - .05 * MET ) * ( 1 - .08 * AMET ) * ( MR + (1 - MR) * MM )
Where
BT = Base Time
MET = Levels of Metallurgy Skill
AMET = Levels of Advanced Metallurgy Skill
MR = Manufacturing Rating of station housing factory for appropriate item
MM = Levels of Manufacturing Management

BP Productivity Research Time:
= BT * ( 1 - .05 * RES ) * ( 1 - .08 * ARES ) * ( MR + (1 - MR) * MM )
Where
BT = Base Time
RES = Levels of Research Skill
ARES = Levels of Advanced Research Skill
MR = Manufacturing Rating of station housing factory for appropriate item
MM = Levels of Manufacturing Management

BP Copy Time:
= BT * ( 1 - .05 * SCI ) * ( 1 - .08 * MDUP ) * ( MR + (1 - MR) * MM ) * ( 2 * RUNS / MAXRUNS )
Where
BT = Base Time
SCI = Levels of Metallurgy Skill
MDUP = Levels of Mass Duplication Skill
MR = Manufacturing Rating of station housing factory for appropriate item
MM = Levels of Manufacturing Management
RUNS = Number of Runs for copy
MAXRUNS = Maximum number of runs you can potentially specify for the copy

Dawnstar
Gallente
Kiroshi Group
Exiliar Syndicate
Posted - 2004.08.12 01:52:00 - [6]
 

Comments

The proposed ranks and prerequisites for the various skills are aimed at making manufacturing a more specialized occupation. A low level manufacturer can specialize in a niche by concentrating on the Manufacturing skill(s) appropriate to the area(s) they are working on, allowing them to surpass in cost reduction a generalist with comparable points sunk into more general manufacturing skills such as Production Efficiency, albeit in just one area (any of the Manufacturing skills at level 3 is almost the equivalent of Production Efficiency 5).

Implementing the skills and research suggestions would create a large range of possibilities for manufacturing costs, even when using the same facilities, depending on the manufacturing capabilities of the manufacturer - there would be range of 100% - 306.25% of the inputs listed being needed. Niche manufacturers would be possible by specializing in the various manufacturing area skills.

Test manufacturers:
Non-manufacturer (no useful skills): 306.25% (1.25 * 1.25 * 1.4 * 1.4)

Entry-Level (PE1 XXXManufacturing 1, ME 1): 275.27% (1.2 * 1.25 * 1.32 * 1.3902)

Apprentice(PE3, XXXManufacturing 2, ME5): (1.1 * 1.25 * 1.24 * 1.3556)

Specialist (PE3, XXXManufacturing4, ME10): 196.02% (1.1 * 1.25 * 1.08 * 1.32 )

Journeyman Generalist (PE5, YYYFabrication3, XXXManufacturing 3, ME10): 168.43% (1 * 1.1 * 1.16 * 1.32)

Master Specialist (PE4, XXXManufacturing5, ME20): 166.25 %(1.05 * 1.25 * 1 * 1.2667)

Master (PE5, YYYFabrication4, xManufacturing4, ME40): 1.36% (1 * 1.05 * 1.08 * 1.2 )

Grand Master (PE5, YYYFabrication5, XXXManufacturing5, ME120): 110% (1 * 1 * 1 * 1.1)

By doing this, we get a very wide range of costs, depending on skills and research. Even a fairly low-level specialist can provide a reasonable return for their time by concentrating in a niche area and training that well.

The specializing of Labs and Factories would make the selection of where to manufacture goods a more involved decision. It could also help cause some regional trends which would encourage more trade between different areas. Good manufacturing/research sites also would probably see an increase in rent as well.

Callan Skiderlar
LIfeline Incorporated
Posted - 2004.08.16 21:14:00 - [7]
 

I think that this suggestion is thought out very well and is very worthy of consideration. The idea of achieving diversification among producers is an important one, and the solution here is a great way to encourage production from novices to old-timers.

I like the idea of specializing in production of specific items. That adds a degree of complexity that is very much needed to encourage more niche markets for producers. Some might complain that it is a training time sink, but then a jack-of-all-trades is master of none.

I personally am not fond of adding to the waste factor on BPOs. The reason is that I think the entry cost of buying a BPO is already cost-prohibitive enough, and early purchasers/researchers will have a huge head-start in the market once they pay off the buy-in cost. You might argue that you would see a healthier market for the BPCs, but I personally wouldn't be running BPCs to sell for a product that I am selling in a market - it's just adding competition. But the concept of creating more "spread" in waste factors is a good one, however it's achieved.

I think the race specialization might be a bit of overkill, personally. It's a valiant attempt at resurrecting margins in the shipbuilding industry, but let's face it: for a lot of reasons, that's is and will ever be a thin-margin market.

All in all, I think this is a great line of thought and would cast my vote for the dev team to give it some further thought.



Marquedios
Gallente
Ihatalo Research and Development
Ihatalo Cartel
Posted - 2004.08.20 08:25:00 - [8]
 

This is a killer idea but I'll have to do some number crunching to see exactly how much I aggree with it, lol. Well thought out and would help give producers something else to do. As things stand right now I'm not so sure as to where to take myself right now. I'm a jack of all trades but yet a master producer/refiner/miner (even though I don't mine :P) but now that i have all these industry/science skills maxed out I need something that I'm fitted to train, no need in training combat stuff when I don't even partake in combat enough to justify the time sink that it is.

Steven Dynahir
Gallente
Avaruuslaivanrakentajat Oyj
Posted - 2004.08.20 12:56:00 - [9]
 

Nope, we need..

1 - Refining done only in stations without factories.
2 - Materials done from minerals
3 - Components done from materials
4 - Equipment parts done from components
5 - Equipment done from equipment parts
6 - Ships done from equipment + materials + components

Put 1.37^6 and think the difference..

Seraph Demon
Minmatar
Posted - 2004.10.27 20:44:00 - [10]
 

This is an excellent idea. It gets my vote.

I think that EVE needs more market dynamics like this. Not to mention the ramifications this would have w.r.t. the way that Player Outposts are operated. Blueprints for deployed factories could start with 0.1 production. Researching those blueprints can be used as an avenue to developing factories that are better suited to production of certain items.

Mercade
Coerce Inc
Posted - 2005.01.18 00:20:00 - [11]
 

Very well thought out idea. I support any movement to greater specialize any aspect of this game. I certainly hope the developers make use of the effort you made in at least giving it a due consideration. You've taken the time to eliminate much of the pondering with a great data comparison and example.

Pandora Panda
Caldari
Posted - 2005.01.18 00:29:00 - [12]
 

Industry (and trade before it got nerfed) were specialties that required player skill to be good at.

I like how the people with plenty of in-game SP who arent smart enough to produce at a profit keep whining about how unfair a free market is. Good luck getting CCP to massively raise the barrier for market entry so your dumbasses can make some profit.

Icarus Starkiller
Forge Regional Security
Posted - 2005.01.18 02:52:00 - [13]
 

One major problem about making BPs efficient...

NO RESEARCH SLOTS.

Anyway, sounds okay, but will pretty much obliterate nuubs from the advanced market... it would create an unbalanced industry wherein new players are foroced to hunt rats and mine just to make a living, rather than occasionally produce from BPCs or the BPOs they can afford.

In the end, only the people with the time and inclination to train up umpteen hundred skills could become half way decent producers... stack on top of that the rediculous Trade skills as they are now, and nobody would really profit except the SP sinks.

It's a good idea, but not really workable without killing nuubage totally, and in the end the game would suffer a slow, protracted demise.

Dawnstar
Gallente
Kiroshi Group
Exiliar Syndicate
Posted - 2005.01.18 03:42:00 - [14]
 

Edited by: Dawnstar on 18/01/2005 03:44:40
I'd like to respond to one item here...
Originally by: Icarus Starkiller


In the end, only the people with the time and inclination to train up umpteen hundred skills could become half way decent producers... stack on top of that the rediculous Trade skills as they are now, and nobody would really profit except the SP sinks.

It's a good idea, but not really workable without killing nuubage totally, and in the end the game would suffer a slow, protracted demise.



Actually, I suspect this would not be the case. The ability to specialize in certain areas is the counterbalance. While it is true it would take one person a long time to be good at everything, it would be entirely feasible for a player to specialize and be competitive in a single area of manufacturing.

A player who spent all his time working on the "nerf gun" manufacturing skill for example would be better at making nerf guns than someone who tried to be able to make everything with moderate skill (note the relatively low skill reqs for the manufacture and fabricate skills, despite their higher rank). Yes, he'd not be as good at making other things, but he'd be competitive where he specialized. Reward those who do specialize or spend the time to be good at a niche. This would also extend into the blueprint area too - those who specialize and concentrate in a niche on a few BPs will do a lot better in their specialized area than a generalist.

I suspect this would also have the effect of raising the value manufacturers add to the process. Many corporations would probably find it more cost effective to purchase some items from others who can make them more efficiently. Right now, as things stand, pretty close to every corporation has a PE 5 character and typically can make EVERYTHING just as well as the next group. No incentive to buy things. They just build them themselves.

The present system already is bad for newer manufacturers. It really is. Its something I've observed at several corporations. Consider a new manufacturer joining a corporation - they are essentially a redundant cog right now, as PE is the only skill which really affects their value as a manufacturer. The more senior players will do most all of the manufacturing. If however, a new manufacturer could bring a set of specialty manufacturing skills to a corporation, he/she is truly valuable and will undoubtedly end up building some of the items for the corporation.

I think the ultimate point I've been trying to make is that specialization in manufacturing is the key which is currently missing. And not by adding skills with nasty prerequisites that don't affect the bottom line. That won't do it. Specialize with skills that newer players can get to in a reasonable amount of time, provided they concentrate solely on that area. Allow a generalist to exist, but make sure that its extremely tough to be a generalist who is good at everything.

Thanks for the feedback, it is appreciated.Smile

Karl Borhman
Minmatar
Union Of Xtreme Military
Thor's Lightning
Posted - 2005.01.18 16:40:00 - [15]
 

Dawnstar:

I agree with you wholeheartedly. Manufacturing is undervalued. Mining is generally more profitable - however there are always exceptions to the rule. You can also see the effect on the market the way BPC's are being sold very cheap.

Unfortunately, when some non-manufacturing character reads posts like this, they generally start *****ing about how unfair it is and yadda yadda yadda and how they should be able to do anything they want this isn't Everquest.Rolling Eyes (Of course simultaneously people like you and I that don't invest in a lot of gunnery skills aren't capable of pulling a trigger of a big weapon? Sure, I'll bet there's a huge difference in the fire button of a 1400mm gun vs. a 650mm one.)

Until our whines get bigger than the people building battleships (and other items in general) without ANY skills at all, the DEVS won't blink an eye.

I think the DEVS will one day realize what the effect on the market has been and one day change the industry skills to make manufacturing more interesting. But don't expect it anytime soon.


Gothmog Tel'Narin
Posted - 2005.01.19 12:10:00 - [16]
 

Edited by: Gothmog Tel'Narin on 19/01/2005 12:15:29
Here's the .02 ISK response from the n00b builder on the game.
First of all flaming off.

Let me generalize cuz I'm not a board poster and never have been. Not even a poster boy.

1. Overall, specialize builders idea scores a 10 with me. Make us builders have some competition getting the good stuff cheaper like IRL.

2. Raising the waste factor gets a score of 7. Good premise but needs tweaked, and don't ask me to explain why I say this.

3. Different factories doing better in different areas of building. Score of 8.
It has potential however even though EVE is HUGE compared to my last space MMO with places I'll prob never go to it would cause alot of tension/war in and out of Empire space. Not that we don't have enough allrdy, but I could see pirates patrolling 'safe space' and killing ppl trying to get there area. Easy enough to go out to 0.0 and raise it again. If you know where to go and what you doing.

4. Steven D, your suggestion sounds to much like Hostile Space fabbing. I know some of you are out there and will understand what I mean. Don't need every game fabbing the same system. "change is good"

Basically an overhaul of manufacturing on the game is needed. All you need to be a n00b builder is PE 5, and a corp with BPC's. Bam, your now a builder. zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz
If I want simple building with no brain power I'll go back to HS.

Anyway, here's my opinion. Prob won't respond but feel free to reply all you want.

P.S. Flame on

Mar vel
Caldari
Agony Unleashed
Agony Empire
Posted - 2005.02.18 11:41:00 - [17]
 

It would seem that inevitably the structure of the manufacturing part of the game is headed towards this blueprint: (as stated previously)-

Simple Reactions done from moon minerals
Complex Reactions done from Simple Reactions
Components done from Complex Reactions
Equipment/Mods/Parts done from Components
Ships include a variety/combination of components and minerals.
Weapons and Mods require a variety of components and minerals.
Mods (tbd: Implants, etc.) will require components and special items/skills.

This makes a complete "tree" whereby there are several stages to the manufacturing process. An individual/corp would be required to specialize in certain areas, or vertically/horizontally integrate. POS's play a major role in the production tree. Skills, probably not so much as to keep it a somewhat "open market" e.g. no barriers to entry other than time/isk to get in the production game. BPO's will not play any more of a role than they currently do, because with this level of complexity in he manufacturing process, no one person or corp would be able to dominate a market segment, much as we have seen over the last couple of years with ship building, etc.

Critical to this success is that CCP discontinue 2 practices:

1. The ability for individuals to acquire an abundance of T2 components through lvl 3/4 agent drops. This upsets the tree and the market balance.

2. That new requirements be instituted making it a requirement to include components (from the tree) in shipbuilding and mod production.

This would finally make for an exciting trade environment that would be dynamic and add a lot more to the playing across the board - not just in manufacturing.

They also need to (at some point) develop POS's so that they are truly a worthwhile investment and not tied to traditional stations (e.g. manufacture goods/ships, etc., and have ability to expand with their own research facilities)

An added bonus would be for them to introduce a viable stock-market so that multi-level conglomerates could be achieved - this would also add to the complexity of the game for those companies that want to partner, etc.

Therian
Dreamscape
Sparta Alliance
Posted - 2005.02.19 04:22:00 - [18]
 

Edited by: Therian on 19/02/2005 05:31:50
I'm supportive of the concept, but as others have said, I think the numbers need a little work.

\o/ for specializing!!!!

Here's some numbers I ran:

It's possible to be under 200% waste in a month (even as a noob, Int=Mem=20, after learning skills):

Industry 4: 1 days
Mass Production 3: 9 hours
Prod Eff 4: 3 days
General Fabrication 3: 2 days
Relevant Manufacturing 3: 1.5 days

That's not even 2 weeks! Make it all Fabrication and Manufacturing:

4x Racial Fab 3: 4 * (1 day) = 4 days
14x Manufacturing: 14 * (1.25 days) = 18 days

So another 3-4 weeks, on the safe side.

Total: 6 weeks, maybe 7 with slightly lower skills. My point is that anyone who started could take 3 months (learning skills (5 weeks) + manufacturing + lab skills (2 weeks)) and be well on their way to successful mass manufacturing. Here's the numbers generated from those skills:

(PE4) * (Man3) * (Fab3)
1.05 * 1.16 * 1.1 = 133.9%

ME0: 187.5%
ME40: 174.2%
ME80: 160.7%
ME120: 147.4%

Equivalent rank would be Journeyman Generalist from Dawnstar's list.

Take an ME 40 bpo, which could be researched in that time (except for large ships, I think):

1.05 * 1.16 * 1.1 * 1.2 = 161%

Still, not unreasonable, and upping everything a level (Int=Mem=23 from implants, since you don't fight):

Industry 4->5: 4 days
Prod Eff 4->5: 12 days
Mass Prod 3->4: 1.5 days
Gen Fab 3->4: 6 days
4x Racial Fab 3->4: 4 * (3.5 days) = 14 days
15x Manufacturing: 15 * (4.25 days) = 64 days

Total to upgrade: 101.5 days, or another 3 months plus a little. SO total time is now 6.5 months (assuming no other skills). Add some basic flying and call it 8 months.

You now are a Master Generalist and have:

PE5 * Fab4 * Man4
1 * 1.05 * 1.08 = 113.4% of required materials due to skills.

ME0: 159%
ME40: 147%
ME80: 136.1%
ME120: 124.7%

So from Journeyman Generalist (147%-187%) to Master Generalist (125%-159%) takes 5 months, but specializing in a couple areas would only take a couple weeks.

I'm not going to touch the next level of stuff, timewise. Razz But waste....well, at that point, it's ALL on the BP Waste, so 110%-140%

Take 4-6 manufacturers, have them specialize, and a corp is still a manufacturing king.

Chesty McJubblies
Posted - 2005.04.07 01:01:00 - [19]
 

Edited by: Chesty McJubblies on 07/04/2005 01:01:42
I was gonnae make a sensible reply to this, then I remembered seeing a post by a moderator the other day saying "bumping old topics is bad, mmkay?", so I wont bother.

Lygos
Amarr
Test Alliance Please Ignore
Posted - 2005.04.07 03:53:00 - [20]
 

I've spent some time thinking about this. I no longer believe a structuralist solution can be found. Even if specialization improves the rate of profit on a particular good beyond the measly 4% advantage, manufacturing as a specialized career won't suddenly take off.

The primary reason is due to market transparency. Market competition in the EVE universe is different from competition in ours. Hypercompetition results even when just two agents are involved because a few systems are far more popular than almost all others.

In the Real World(tm) competition merely depresses sales volumes. It is always possible to sell a few units at almost any price. A competitor merely gets a bigger market share. In EVE, the guy who prices a penny lower aquires 100% of local market share.

There is nothing we can do about the voluntarist syndrome in EVE, except increase daily market consumption volume to where it can only be provided by megacorps, but there is something we can do about hypercompetition.

The best way I can think of is "competition by other means." Allowing local rivals to contest local vending rights is the main instrument in this. As it is, there is no chance of booting anyone from any empire station. You can't do it by corruption of public officials by isk, nor by political favors, nor by military means. A little more realism would go a long way toward helping the rich get richer. For the poor in EVE, the best model would have them seek employment from the rich, but that is rather difficult to implement.

Arx Nemesis
Caldari
Posted - 2005.04.07 06:07:00 - [21]
 

Edited by: Arx Nemesis on 07/04/2005 06:41:36
Edited by: Arx Nemesis on 07/04/2005 06:07:36
Originally by: Lygos
I've spent some time thinking about this. I no longer believe a structuralist solution can be found. Even if specialization improves the rate of profit on a particular good beyond the measly 4% advantage, manufacturing as a specialized career won't suddenly take off.

The primary reason is due to market transparency. Market competition in the EVE universe is different from competition in ours. Hypercompetition results even when just two agents are involved because a few systems are far more popular than almost all others.

In the Real World(tm) competition merely depresses sales volumes. It is always possible to sell a few units at almost any price. A competitor merely gets a bigger market share. In EVE, the guy who prices a penny lower aquires 100% of local market share.

There is nothing we can do about the voluntarist syndrome in EVE, except increase daily market consumption volume to where it can only be provided by megacorps, but there is something we can do about hypercompetition.

The best way I can think of is "competition by other means." Allowing local rivals to contest local vending rights is the main instrument in this. As it is, there is no chance of booting anyone from any empire station. You can't do it by corruption of public officials by isk, nor by political favors, nor by military means. A little more realism would go a long way toward helping the rich get richer. For the poor in EVE, the best model would have them seek employment from the rich, but that is rather difficult to implement.



hmm, you know what is actualy missing in EvE? Ads/shops... this makes hard for builder to advertise itself as personal shop, yes ppl exploit the tins as ad pins but there should be a good simple and elegant way to do it (station service maybe?) just register your "shop" set things you are producing with according prices, set region/system you want to operate and open it to public, making package deals would be also great, and in such it would make market compete and clients aswell as traders happy.

one more thing, it's kinda tied to r&d aswell as production and marketing (and this is big one). With current r&d in game only thing you can do is get better material ratio and production time, but that's it, nothing more, so it is kind of lacky. introducing ways to improve equipment more could not only make r&d to good proffesion but would also make markets and game play more dynamic, ability to name them after r&d owner/corp would break monotomy, now wouldn't you like to buy Lygos heavy missile launcher wich would have less power,cpu load and better rof? Making such "modifyed" items should be abit harder and more time and skill demanding than usual efficensy work (to awoid mass flood of super-duper killer tech) but it should be possible.

Steven Dynahir
Gallente
Avaruuslaivanrakentajat Oyj
Posted - 2005.04.07 09:38:00 - [22]
 

Originally by: Steven Dynahir
Nope, we need..

1 - Refining done only in stations without factories.
2 - Materials done from minerals
3 - Components done from materials
4 - Equipment parts done from components
5 - Equipment done from equipment parts
6 - Ships done from equipment + materials + components

Put 1.37^6 and think the difference..



Half a year has passed, let's analyse the situation.

1) In 0.0 refining can be done only at stations without factories. POS equipment doesn't yet have refineries.

2) Materials are done with reactions: Moon minerals -> Simple materials -> Advanced materials.

3) Components are done from advanced materials.

4) This has not been implemented, but we can assume the advanced materials path was chosen instead.

5) T2 Equipment is now done from components.

6) T2 ships require equipment + materials + components to make (ie: construction blocks/robotics, minerals + t2 components)

Yup, the cost variation is coming.. but it takes some time.

Dawnstar
Gallente
Kiroshi Group
Exiliar Syndicate
Posted - 2005.04.07 17:47:00 - [23]
 

Originally by: Therian
Edited by: Therian on 19/02/2005 05:31:50
I'm supportive of the concept, but as others have said, I think the numbers need a little work.
<snip>

Total to upgrade: 101.5 days, or another 3 months plus a little. SO total time is now 6.5 months (assuming no other skills). Add some basic flying and call it 8 months.

You now are a Master Generalist and have:

PE5 * Fab4 * Man4
1 * 1.05 * 1.08 = 113.4% of required materials due to skills.

<snip>

So from Journeyman Generalist (147%-187%) to Master Generalist (125%-159%) takes 5 months, but specializing in a couple areas would only take a couple weeks.

I'm not going to touch the next level of stuff, timewise. Razz But waste....well, at that point, it's ALL on the BP Waste, so 110%-140%

Take 4-6 manufacturers, have them specialize, and a corp is still a manufacturing king.


I'll take a moment to comment here... Personally, I don't have a problem with a corp which has 4-6 specialized manufacturers being a manufacturing king.Very Happy

I don't have a problemn with someone who works at manufacturing skills being under 200% of base after a month of skill training. That's a fair payoff for a month of skill work, and makes a new manufacturing player's skills valuable. Shaving the rest of the costs down to 100% is what is going to be time consuming.

I think the ultimate point here was that literally anyone can be a manufacturer for very little cost, which caps the amount that a devoted manufacturer's time/effort is worth. Quite frankly, unless a player is desperate, you should never pay more than 37.5% over cost for an item (plus the price of a BPC maybe) - you can build it yourself for that, regardless of your skills. I very much would like it to be a significant decision whether to build something yourself or to buy it from someone else who is good at building the item. And 37.5% really isn't going to cut it for that.

Dawnstar
Gallente
Kiroshi Group
Exiliar Syndicate
Posted - 2005.04.07 17:51:00 - [24]
 

Originally by: Steven Dynahir

Yup, the cost variation is coming.. but it takes some time.



Still only will affect T2 industry. Has no significant effect on T1, which is where all starting manufacturers will begin, especially considering how hard it is to get a T2 print. And they're going to be struggling to compete with every player in the game who won't pay more than a pittance over cost for stuff because they can build it themselves fairly cheaply.

Mirph
Centermass Solutions
Posted - 2005.04.23 13:08:00 - [25]
 

Really nice idea, I agree with most of it. Well written and this should get some attention imo.


 

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