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Haniblecter Teg
F.R.E.E. Explorer
The Initiative.
Posted - 2009.03.02 16:44:00 - [31]
 

Edited by: Haniblecter Teg on 02/03/2009 16:44:58
HOLY GOD YOU SLOW PEOPLE!


Learning skills are NOT A NECESSITY. You claim that new players 'have to', 'will be forced', 'catch up with old Sp', blah blah blah. Yet none of you realize that faster training is just that, faster training. It doesnt impact anything ingame, in terms of flying ships or pew pewing, can't allow a new player to fit this crazy thing called an AB, isn't part of the fun ship mechanics that they've heard about, its just faster training time.


In fact,

CAN ONE OF YOU WHINERS TELL ME WHAT OPPORTUNITY YOU LOSE BY NOT IMMEDIATELY TRAINING LEARNING SKILLS?

How many god damn days of training time will a new pilot miss out on if he neglects all but the easiest (less then, say, 3 hour training time) levels of learning for a few months?

Three? Four days? Get a life, new players just want to pew pew and get into a cruiser.

MotherMoon
Huang Yinglong
Posted - 2009.03.02 16:48:00 - [32]
 

Originally by: brinelan
Training learning to 4/3 is nice and all, but what true newbie has 4.5m *4 just to dump into skillbooks when they fisrt start out?


one who has a 30 day plex card included in the box that they can trade for isk on the in-game market.


MotherMoon
Huang Yinglong
Posted - 2009.03.02 16:49:00 - [33]
 

Edited by: MotherMoon on 02/03/2009 17:32:31
Edited by: MotherMoon on 02/03/2009 16:52:28
Edited by: MotherMoon on 02/03/2009 16:51:16
Originally by: Haniblecter Teg
Edited by: Haniblecter Teg on 02/03/2009 16:44:58
HOLY GOD YOU SLOW PEOPLE!


Learning skills are NOT A NECESSITY. You claim that new players 'have to', 'will be forced', 'catch up with old Sp', blah blah blah. Yet none of you realize that faster training is just that, faster training. It doesnt impact anything ingame, in terms of flying ships or pew pewing, can't allow a new player to fit this crazy thing called an AB, isn't part of the fun ship mechanics that they've heard about, its just faster training time.


In fact,

CAN ONE OF YOU WHINERS TELL ME WHAT OPPORTUNITY YOU LOSE BY NOT IMMEDIATELY TRAINING LEARNING SKILLS?

How many god damn days of training time will a new pilot miss out on if he neglects all but the easiest (less then, say, 3 hour training time) levels of learning for a few months?

Three? Four days? Get a life, new players just want to pew pew and get into a cruiser.



you really want to know?

did you completely ignore my post?

In the 1st 3 months they will miss on on 50 days of training.


50 ****ING DAYS.

if you train 4/3 you will be in a cruiser pew pewing 20 days before not training them.

as in

you don't train your learning skills and get to 400,000 sp.
I train my learning skills for 10 days to 500,000 sp.
now 10 days later you get to 600,000 sp. and I'm at 1.2 million sp.

your still stuck in a frigate, and I'm in a cruiser blowing through level 2 missions have fun training"real" skills.

If this was still on TQ I would of agreed with you. but with this new double training rate, it is no longer the case.

EDIT:Mica reminded me.

ok it takes on SiSi,, currently, with no learning skills about... 4 weeks to get medium weapons and cruisers to level 3.

so lets reamp our attributes a little and... train up memory to 2, learning to 3, and perception to 4. Now get the advanced perception to 4. that takes 3 days. now train cybernectes to 4...

ok that all takes 3 days. you now have 18+4+3. 25

plug in a +4 implant... check evemon for time to get into cruiser...
that makes 29
plus learning equals 60 effective perception.
now get willpower to level 3. (about 5 hours)
plus in implant.
that gets you 24 will power

ok lets check eve mon again... 7 days... training at... 5000+sp/hour????

you get into a cruiser in 9-10 days if you train learning skills, instead of over 28 days.

have fun wasting your time if you don't train learning.

Gnulpie
Minmatar
Miner Tech
Posted - 2009.03.02 16:57:00 - [34]
 

I still think it is a bad idea to give the new players virtually NO skills at all.

Double training time and all fine, but ...


... new players should be able to hop into a frig, slap some guns/missile launchers onto it and have some basic tank and start doing fun things.


At the moment they still need at least two or three days for that - besides that all these skills they need to learn will just confuse them probably (following CCP logic).

Currently the new players get tons of skills and are confused because they do not know what those skills can do - but the player CAN USE the skills. In the new approach the new players will be confused because they have tons of skills which they need to train and they do not know what those skills can do. But until they have learned the skills they can do NOTHING useful.

And following CCP logic (which I do not agree but meh) that they want to fish in lots of new players and keep them, we know that the first days, even the first hours, playing with an MMO are critical for people to stay or not to stay.

So ... in the first hours and days the new players cannot do anything useful just because they lack the skills. Really, what sort of logic is that??

"We want an easier approach for newbs."
"Okay, let us remove all the skills they get at startup, this makes it much easier."
"Brilliant, make it so!"


Instead of letting the newbs have still some skills, maybe 250k or so, and letting them play for a bit and then after 3 days or 1 week let them choose if they maybe want some different school/skillset and finalize that skillset then, the current approach is wrong. The increased learning speed won't change anything because the new player won't recognize that as an advantage. Instead he thinks it is normal. Perception is reality.

MotherMoon
Huang Yinglong
Posted - 2009.03.02 17:01:00 - [35]
 

Originally by: Gnulpie
. The increased learning speed won't change anything because the new player won't recognize that as an advantage. Instead he thinks it is normal. Perception is reality.


now please tell me what happens when they lose it. and figure out it wasn't normal.

it's like giving cake and then taking it away.

Wadaya
Trailerpark Industries
Posted - 2009.03.02 17:07:00 - [36]
 

Since you get faster than normal training, and in a normal circumstance it takes 2-3 days to get cybernetics 4 for +4 implants, now it would take 1.5 days or under. So the question still is: What if i rolled an alt now, but didn't start training it until after the expansion? Granted I start with 800k or so skill points, but do I train at the accelerated rate until I hit 1.6 mil sp? Or do I train at the normal rate?

Rakshasa Taisab
Caldari
Sane Industries Inc.
Posted - 2009.03.02 17:09:00 - [37]
 

Originally by: Haniblecter Teg
In fact,

CAN ONE OF YOU WHINERS TELL ME WHAT OPPORTUNITY YOU LOSE BY NOT IMMEDIATELY TRAINING LEARNING SKILLS?

I'm sure there's a lesson in enjoying life in there somewhere, but I just can't figure it out.

Oh well... Back to counting my SP as they increase rapidly.

DiaBlo UK
ZDK
Posted - 2009.03.02 17:20:00 - [38]
 

what about creating that alt to say make a corp or a cyno alt on the same account, it'll now take more training time. atm i can create an alt with 6 research slot so it can do copying for me, i take it that will no longer be an option?

could we not get a 2 options, complete new player, gets the new version, and alt creation, where you can chose the skills and still make a semi useful char that doesn't need training?

MotherMoon
Huang Yinglong
Posted - 2009.03.02 17:22:00 - [39]
 

Edited by: MotherMoon on 02/03/2009 17:22:35
Originally by: Rakshasa Taisab
Originally by: Haniblecter Teg
In fact,

CAN ONE OF YOU WHINERS TELL ME WHAT OPPORTUNITY YOU LOSE BY NOT IMMEDIATELY TRAINING LEARNING SKILLS?

I'm sure there's a lesson in enjoying life in there somewhere, but I just can't figure it out.

Oh well... Back to counting my SP as they increase rapidly.


10 days or 30 days, how long do you want to watch your learning skills train.

and then, do mind being 50 days in sp behind NOT learning skill related in the 1st 90 days ok with you.

madness, I'm done. I'm ranting.

Mica Swanhaven
Posted - 2009.03.02 17:25:00 - [40]
 

Originally by: Wadaya
Since you get faster than normal training, and in a normal circumstance it takes 2-3 days to get cybernetics 4 for +4 implants, now it would take 1.5 days or under. So the question still is: What if i rolled an alt now, but didn't start training it until after the expansion? Granted I start with 800k or so skill points, but do I train at the accelerated rate until I hit 1.6 mil sp? Or do I train at the normal rate?


double rate I believe.

and I did some math, you can get 60 perception in 4 days on SiSi.

Treelox
Posted - 2009.03.02 18:24:00 - [41]
 

while I agree that a lot of the skills that the current char creation gives are sort of foolish. I really think that what CCP is about to do is overly drastic. It will take them too long to start training or to be "useful" to other players.


I seriously believe that brand new players under the new NPE, should at least be able to fit t1 guns/launchers(as per race) on a t1 frig with, with the ability to fit a t1 webber, scram/disruptor and mwd aswell. This will give new players worth to older player based corps, tacklers are always in demand.

Bentula
Posted - 2009.03.02 18:59:00 - [42]
 

Mothermoon pretty much said it all.

A new player wants to train stuff like better ship skills, new weaponsystems and other fun stuff that gives him more bling. Instead he would be stupid to not train learning skills first thing he does.

Imagine two newbies starting together and meeting on the first day, one is forum savy and found out how effective learning skills are in the double xp starting time the other just plays the game. When they meet again some weeks later and one is a competent cruiser pilot while the other just learned to properly fly frigates he will be ****ed. He will be ****ed twice as much when he finds out he now has to spend 3-4 weaks training skills which give him no bling at all just to keep training at the speed he got used to.

I really think its unwise to introduce this "training speed crash". It will be very, very painfull for new players who do not train learning skills in the double xp time.

Im about to start training a 15 day skill, and let me tell you i would totally hate it if that skill(and every other) suddenly took twice as long, doesnt matter that its the normal speed they get dropped too, their perception will be that they only train half as fast.

Lazyeye Larry
Posted - 2009.03.02 19:18:00 - [43]
 

Originally by: MotherMoon
Originally by: brinelan
Training learning to 4/3 is nice and all, but what true newbie has 4.5m *4 just to dump into skillbooks when they fisrt start out?


one who has a 30 day plex card included in the box that they can trade for isk on the in-game market.




True newbies won't have this. They get one 60 day card that they use to start their account. A real newbie cannot/will not/won't know how to convert it into PLEXs and sell for ISK.

Apocrypha seems like it's supposed to be for new players, but this whole new player training thing is simply for alt farming. New players will be lost and skill-less and bored in this new plan.

Have they even said anything about how new players will pay for all these "missing yet customizable" skills they won't be getting?

Anna K
Gallente
Organizacoes Tabajara
Posted - 2009.03.02 19:23:00 - [44]
 

Yup, horrible idea. While that makes me want to create a new account and enjoy a new fast learning character, it will sure make a horrible experience for all the new players, both the "wise" ones wasting 10 days in skill learning and for the "let s try to have fun" who will still lose 3 days to get descent basic skill to start and have fun...
Besides psychopaths, who will stay ? Give them easy choise "I wanna be a fighter / miner / whatever" and done... and make them able to reskill freely for the first two weeks... then "choose" and try to catch up to those¨6 years old players. YARRRR!!

Rakshasa Taisab
Caldari
Sane Industries Inc.
Posted - 2009.03.02 19:54:00 - [45]
 

Originally by: MotherMoon
10 days or 30 days, how long do you want to watch your learning skills train.

and then, do mind being 50 days in sp behind NOT learning skill related in the 1st 90 days ok with you.

madness, I'm done. I'm ranting.

Hyperboles lead no where... Yet 30 days or 10 days, life is not a race to the end. Learn to enjoy what you have, not what you will be in possession of once you've reached the end of the race.

Datsun Achura
Perkone
Posted - 2009.03.02 20:04:00 - [46]
 

How about CCP just COMPLETELY REMOVE learning skills, once and for all? Then we wouldn't have this problem.

Noobs have got enough skills to train to make their characters anywhere near 'useful' (as well as a near vertical learning curve and paltry amount of ISK in the beginning). Of course, they don't HAVE to to do learning skills, but the perception of vet players being 'years in front' (however false) is real for a lot of new players, so any advantage to get them ahead, they will take - even if it means training these horrible skills for weeks. Stop pre-nerfing noobs and just give them decent attributes off the bat (and preferably refund those who have trained learning, fanks)

CCP needs to bite the bullet on this one. It's just a horrible part of the game and was no doubt suggested by the same Dev who thought a BPO lottery would be a good idea Neutral.


MotherMoon
Huang Yinglong
Posted - 2009.03.02 20:15:00 - [47]
 

Originally by: Rakshasa Taisab
Originally by: MotherMoon
10 days or 30 days, how long do you want to watch your learning skills train.

and then, do mind being 50 days in sp behind NOT learning skill related in the 1st 90 days ok with you.

madness, I'm done. I'm ranting.

Hyperboles lead no where... Yet 30 days or 10 days, life is not a race to the end. Learn to enjoy what you have, not what you will be in possession of once you've reached the end of the race.


That is a wonderful way to live life.

sadly however, eve has a sub cost. And those 50 days I talked about... 60 if you include the learning skills... cost people real money.

so yeah, your totally right. If eve didn't have a subscription.

I wouldn't want to find out that another player just as old as me after only 3 months had 2 months more skills than me. and to catch up (which I could never do anyways) I would have to pay another 30$.

...

god that would make me quit right away.. I'll be helping out new players after this like always just to make sure we don't lose new players.

I'm an alt for an eve uni person. I just feel like this make our job harder...

before you had to really think. DO I want to train learning skills? Do I want to train for a month for something that won't pay off for 3 months? but now it's 10 days, and the pay off is 10 days. SO now it's yes, yes, yes, yes.

I won't let new player NOT train their learning skills in eve uni any lower than at least basic 4, advanced 1.

And yes I provide the advanced learning skill books because I think it's Bull**** new players are prenerfed. This new system is very heavily tilted in advantage for older players making alts that know what they are doing.

Also just to clear things up, if a new player used all 1,600,000 sp for learning than they would actually waste their double training time.

time based skill system... can't work this way anymore :(

wait I thought I was done typing today.. damn it.



MotherMoon
Huang Yinglong
Posted - 2009.03.02 20:18:00 - [48]
 

Originally by: Lazyeye Larry
Originally by: MotherMoon
Originally by: brinelan
Training learning to 4/3 is nice and all, but what true newbie has 4.5m *4 just to dump into skillbooks when they fisrt start out?


one who has a 30 day plex card included in the box that they can trade for isk on the in-game market.




True newbies won't have this. They get one 60 day card that they use to start their account. A real newbie cannot/will not/won't know how to convert it into PLEXs and sell for ISK.

Apocrypha seems like it's supposed to be for new players, but this whole new player training thing is simply for alt farming. New players will be lost and skill-less and bored in this new plan.

Have they even said anything about how new players will pay for all these "missing yet customizable" skills they won't be getting?



Actually, the new tutorial is awesome. And gives you lots of skill books. I've only gone through 2 of the career mission on SiSi and I've gotten at least 15 new skill books.

just throw them all in the que as you get them.

Brilliant.

Hya Bam
Minmatar
It's Hammer Time
Posted - 2009.03.02 20:41:00 - [49]
 

Double rate? Sounds great!

And everyone complaining about how new players will be useless... what about the starter ships, and civilian modules? Sure, they suck, but they can get you through those first few low lvl 1 missions, right?

And training a rank 1 skill to lvl 1 is like, what, 10 minutes normally? So that's 5 minutes to get a few more skills on the board. Train a few learning skills while you're offline, so you don't fall hopelessly behind everyone else, and you're not losing that much time really.

And there's also the certificates system that they can follow, to make sure they're getting the right skills for what they want to do. And people to give them advice, both ingame and in the forums.

So it will be better for the TRUE newbies, who don't know what the heck they're doing, but worse off for the alts who have everything pre-planned out, and want their precious SPs RIGHT NOW!

I think it is a good idea, and haven't seen any evidence put forth that says otherwise.

Disteeler
Perkone
Posted - 2009.03.02 20:51:00 - [50]
 

Edited by: Disteeler on 02/03/2009 20:51:37

I'm looking at the bigger picture of this system and I wonder ... when are you starting to sell, using the redeem system, some "100% faster skillpoint training" packs for $/€? Neutral

Adel Sorra
Posted - 2009.03.02 21:09:00 - [51]
 

a new player wont spend his first 10 days on learning skills (or buy +4 implants), simply because they cost a lot of isk. the comparison of the 2 extremes doesnt hold up, the "ideal" path is only used to create alts. the advantage is only for people how know the game already, and have the isk to use it.

the advise new players get regarding learning skills is the same most times anyway: dont forget to throw one in once in a while. most people seem to do that, so the difference wont be so extreme in most cases, its more a question of how you managed to balance. im not a fan of learning skills or anything, but the experience new players get wont be so different from what they get now.

just dont tell a 1 day old player how crucial it is the learn the learnings first at all cost. if you tell him he should get the basics to 3 in the fist 2 weeks or so, the worst will be avoided, and he will be alarmed. the desicion is up to him (and he should make up his own mind, after all, that the kind of game eve is, isn't it?)

Destination SkillQueue
Are We There Yet
Posted - 2009.03.02 21:38:00 - [52]
 

Edited by: Destination SkillQueue on 02/03/2009 21:48:22
Originally by: Adel

just dont tell a 1 day old player how crucial it is the learn the learnings first at all cost. if you tell him he should get the basics to 3 in the fist 2 weeks or so, the worst will be avoided, and he will be alarmed. the desicion is up to him (and he should make up his own mind, after all, that the kind of game eve is, isn't it?)



The problem is that the decision should be somewhat balanced. In the old system it was more balanced, since you didn't have the double attribute boost and all characters had some learning skills from the start. With the new changes we are starting to go into the area, where you have the choice, but one of the option is vastly superior and only a true noob wouldn't see this. I was hoping that we would move in the opposite direction, where noobies get good learning skill levels from the start, so this wouldn't be an important issue.

Meh, what do I care. I won't be training a single learning skill ever again. Let the nooblets trudge in the learning skill swamp. At least those that survive the ordeal will be better for it, right?

EDIT: What about the free attribute respecs the newbs get? Could I potentially put all my points in attributes, that learning skills use, to train them even faster. Then use a free respec to even them a little, so I can start the normal training plan. How much will those free attribute respecs shorten the learning skill training?

Pringlescan
GoonFleet
Band of Brothers
Posted - 2009.03.02 21:54:00 - [53]
 

Yes this detailed need over a month to break even is really going to endear the game to all the 2 week trials.

Alma Malice
Posted - 2009.03.02 21:56:00 - [54]
 

/agree about huge imbalance and /thank for nice analysis

How about if we don't let them use the grace period of 2 x faster learning up to 1.600Msp to train any kind of learning skills?

I know it's not elegant and we should perhaps strive for a more general solution that fits everything, instead of creating small exceptions to cope with the imperfections of our current system, but it would sort this one out...

Battlecheese
Posted - 2009.03.02 22:19:00 - [55]
 

Originally by: Lazyeye Larry
Apocrypha seems like it's supposed to be for new players, but this whole new player training thing is simply for alt farming. New players will be lost and skill-less and bored in this new plan.

What game are you playing? I started with 55kSPs. It was a great fun choosing what to train next.
Get your head out of excel and play the game.

Merouk Baas
Gallente
Posted - 2009.03.02 23:22:00 - [56]
 

I would like to suggest that you guys at CCP also implement promotional things like "recruit a newbie and they train at 2x for a month" or "get out of the NPC corp and join a player corp, and you train at 2x for another month" etc. Incentives.

Anwyay, re: learning skills, I'm also for removing them, just give everyone an extra 10 points per attribute, and then we can use implants (which can be destroyed and cost cash) if we want to go beyond that.

Dractyl
Posted - 2009.03.03 00:16:00 - [57]
 

I would like to comment on the initiative as laid out in the post, and then suggest a possible enhancement.

Firstly, I don't think that a one-size-fits-all approach is the best one. One might argue that since the new system allows deeper customization, this is not a one-size-fits-all approach. But at a higher level it is; it assumes that all people want to have deep customization from the word go. This is untrue.

Secondly, the blog post is at odds with itself. It starts off saying "to reduce the amount of decisions new players need to make before starting to play the game", and ending with, "More choice, more flexibility, more power!". If you want to reduce the overwhelimg choice a player has when they first turn up, giving them more choice/customization is not the way to do it.

Being dropped into Eve without even the vaguest hint of an initial direction or role makes the situation a lot more complex. It's like getting out of high school and having no idea what you would like to do for a living. There is simply too much choice. But if your Dad's a mechanic and you've been working at the garage part-time, at least you have something to do and some direction while you figure out "what it's all about". Reduce the scope of choice to something manageable, while not forcing the character into it long term.

Thirdly, replacing the existing system wholesale is like throwing the baby out with the bathwater. You will lose the positive attributes associated with what we have now. Often times an older player just needs a quick "lab alt" or "trading alt" and does not want to spend a month to do it. That is valuable in a game where you can only have one character per account training skills. I think a lot of people are going to make some alts before M10 just in case they need them. I know I am thinking about it. Some have already expressed this concern. That says to me that a valuable feature is being removed if people feel moved to "get in on it before it ends".

So, that said, on to my suggestion:

I think you should offer one basic choice. "a) Do you want to have complete customization and choice with regards to your character" or "b) Would you like to select from a set of suggested, initial professions".

If they select a) then it's a win for new players who get their endorphins from exploring and learning the abstract skills and "the system". It's also a win for players who are starting a second character or account and want that level of customization (I have several accounts from the old-old days set up exactly this way). You can let the player know that this choice has an overall advantage, if the player knows what they are doing or are willing to learn; the harder path gets the higher rewards (read this sentence once more and think about it a bit).

If they select b) dispense with the whole "what school would you like to go to" thing. It was confusing then and is confusing now. List out a series of suggested professions (scientist, soldier, trader, explorer, etc) while stressing that Eve does not lock you into a given role and that players are free to branch out into other areas any time they like. These people get the existing system. This is a win for new characters who need some guidance, don't want to learn everything "right now", or for older players who just need a quick alt (I have also done this).

Having new players make one real decision and potentially one follow-up decision, is a simple way of getting them going. It caters to different types of personalities, while maintaining the solid benefits of both systems for both young and old. It would like to hope that this could be done for M10, but if it's not, please keep it in mind for the next revision.

Merouk Baas
Gallente
Posted - 2009.03.03 02:31:00 - [58]
 

Edited by: Merouk Baas on 03/03/2009 02:34:07

They used to have your B, Dractyl, btw, that was the original character creation system. You could pick from a list of professions (like you say, scientist, engineer, mechanic, trader) or you could choose "custom" and then pick school, career, etc. (which gave skills). I think they noticed that everyone was choosing "custom".

Here's the problem: there are no careers in EVE. It's a PVP game, you're supposed to build a combat character and fight. The "scientist" option is not a full game - what can you do, set up jobs to research ME or copy blueprints? That's not enough of a game. The "engineer" option just gave a bunch of skills having to do with powergrid on a ship - what are you supposed to do with those? Roleplay Scotty from Star Trek?

None of the professions you list actually provide a full entertaining game, by themselves. In this game, you do something to make money, and then... well if you don't PVP you just get ISK-rich and bored and quit the game.

Newbies will need 80 skills trained to 3 or 4 across the board before they can even begin to make a choice. Electronics, Engineering, Mechanic, Navigation, Learning, Science (and I mean the whole categories, not just the individual skills), they're all needed before you can even begin to think "What ship do I want to pilot?" Do I want interceptors, do I want HICs, do I want mining barge? Those are the choices, but nobody can really make them until they have 4-6 million skillpoints in those skill categories above.

I agree with you that the lack of direction is a problem. Other games have extensive PVE content to "guide" the newbie along, but this game does not, and has always been more about PVP than PVE. Maybe they'll change that.

MotherMoon
Huang Yinglong
Posted - 2009.03.03 03:17:00 - [59]
 

Edited by: MotherMoon on 03/03/2009 03:20:11
Originally by: Pringlescan
Yes this detailed need over a month to break even is really going to endear the game to all the 2 week trials.


no. you need 10 days to break even now, your thinking in current learning skills, not m10 learning skills.
Quote:
I agree with you that the lack of direction is a problem. Other games have extensive PVE content to "guide" the newbie along, but this game does not, and has always been more about PVP than PVE. Maybe they'll change that.


once again, play the new career missions you guys. there is a nice chuck of direction. IN fact there is a 4-5 page tutorial for EVERY basic skill in the game now. It's epic.

Zex Maxwell
Caldari
Posted - 2009.03.03 04:58:00 - [60]
 

Edited by: Zex Maxwell on 03/03/2009 06:32:27
Edited by: Zex Maxwell on 03/03/2009 05:00:46
When I started Eve, I was not sure what race or Profession i wanted to join. But when i heard about the background about the Caldari, and the types of weapons they used, i Joined them. I was glad I was able to get a starting skills, since the ships i Used needed them.

but with this new system, I have done the following.

1: Told My older Bro to "Start now" before the new "new player" system. Even my older brother didn't think it was a good idea. (BTW he based his choice of race, by the types of weapons the race used.)
2: Made Nub alts. Since I needed lab alts, I made them, and there is no way in hell i would spend a week or month to train that nub alt for what i need it for.

PS after I learned about combat and how it works. I started not to like it all that much, but i liked mining. so even though i had to start changing my skills, I am still glad i have a chance to change ships, and fight if i needed to.

I STILL think CCP made the wrong move here. even though they think its for the right reason.

PPS I would not be surprised if the learning cliff got higher.


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