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Deva Blackfire
Viziam
Posted - 2010.05.04 20:55:00 - [571]
 

Edited by: Deva Blackfire on 04/05/2010 20:56:10
@ above

As much as i would love 200dps on malediction im actually sane person who doesnt run around with bellum-style ideas. Hint: with your idea kestrel would be close to 400dps. And thats just wrong. If you do 50% boost then its 300dps. But then malediction hitting for 20 or 30dps... does it really matter? 1 SAR can tank that. So in the end you dont improve hit quality as quality remains same, just DPS number goes up. Improving quality means more effective damage from same damage output (similiar to turret hit quality). And that means: better explo velocity.

Also having CONSTANT 80-100dps would be MUCH better than having random 30-200dps numbers. Weapon system you can depend on >>>> random weapon system with huge dps possibility. And like before: if you want huge dps, go bombers. They already exist.

Duchess Starbuckington
Posted - 2010.05.04 23:08:00 - [572]
 

Edited by: Duchess Starbuckington on 04/05/2010 23:12:25
Originally by: Deva Blackfire
Edited by: Deva Blackfire on 04/05/2010 20:56:10
@ above

As much as i would love 200dps on malediction im actually sane person who doesnt run around with bellum-style ideas. Hint: with your idea kestrel would be close to 400dps. And thats just wrong. If you do 50% boost then its 300dps. But then malediction hitting for 20 or 30dps... does it really matter? 1 SAR can tank that. So in the end you dont improve hit quality as quality remains same, just DPS number goes up. Improving quality means more effective damage from same damage output (similiar to turret hit quality). And that means: better explo velocity.

Also having CONSTANT 80-100dps would be MUCH better than having random 30-200dps numbers. Weapon system you can depend on >>>> random weapon system with huge dps possibility. And like before: if you want huge dps, go bombers. They already exist.


Basically this.

Quote:
There's two ways to make rockets more powerful, you can either increase the hit quality (increase Ev/Er) or you can increase the base damage. Neither of these choices are perfect and will have different effects depending on which ship classes you look at:


Uhh, no, there are three. Have you even read any of this thread?
Well as you also seem to need it put in nice, simple words here it is:

Step 1: Buff explosion velocity to sensible levels
Step 2: Buff damage to sensible levels
With me so far?
Step 3: weapon that does reasonable dps with reasonable ability to hit small targets. By no means highest dps, but consistent, which makes it a viable choice compared to other weapons.

There, that wasn't so hard was it?
Now please take your abysmally thought out 400 dps Kestrel of doom bull**** somewhere else.

Edit: Actually no, I agree, your idea is the best thing ever. I've got 232 dps out of an obscene-dps fit rocket kessie right now, and eagerly await the ability to instakill a battleship with 5 tech 1 frigates once your rofl damage buff comes through.

yani dumyat
Minmatar
Pixie Cats
Posted - 2010.05.05 01:25:00 - [573]
 

Are you two smoking crack?

I specifically stated that doubling the DPS and not touching the Ev/Er would be bad because "doubling the damage to 200 paper dps only increases the applied damage to 50 dps, this still leaves you with a big deficit compared to the dps a claw or taranis can dish out."

Go back and read the last paragraph, I said "increase the raw damage of rocket ships to the point where they are comparable to turrets." It's not a hard statement to understand. Yes rockets need an increase to Ev/Er, I've never said otherwise but I did say bring them in line with torps.

A raven with a scram and web will hit for full damage against most battleships you actually meet in game, unlike rockets which do not hit for full damage against scrammed and webbed frigates that you do meet in game. The torp philosophy is good but unlike with BS where you need to balance against MWD's you need to balance the Ev/Er of rockets against AB frigates.

Originally by: Deva Blackfire

Also having CONSTANT 80-100dps would be MUCH better than having random 30-200dps numbers.



No it wouldn't for two reasons:

1) Those numbers are not random, the whole point of player skill is to maximize the potential of your ship. Can you imagine how dull eve would be if all weapons had such a narrow range of potential DPS?

2) Do you understand the missile formula? If rockets could hit a non webbed AB interceptor for 80 dps they would be doing a guaranteed 100 dps against every other frigate in the game, which is pretty dull in the first place but also leaves you woefully short of the turret ships that are hitting between 100 and 200 dps.

Dreed Roberts
Posted - 2010.05.05 04:47:00 - [574]
 

Edited by: Dreed Roberts on 05/05/2010 04:48:47
Edited by: Dreed Roberts on 05/05/2010 04:47:42
actually I have been running the numbers through a spreadsheet for a little while and I am a bit unsure about a explosion velocity buff.

Firstly the way things stand at the moment a web gives a much bigger bonus to damage than a target painter, as a general rule this is reversed for most other missile types. However web range and rocket range are so similar perhaps this is why it has been set this way.

Secondly one thing that has been missed (in the first and last 3 pages anyway, can't say about the rest) is that the explosion radius of rockets is much much lower than anything else, especially when compared to light missiles. As it stands rockets will do full damage to (stationary) pods and light drones, something no other class of missiles can. Perhaps this value should be raised along with an increase in explosion velocity? Although this would probably drive the balance towards TP away from webs.

Thirdly what is this talk of needing to web cruisers to do damage to them? Running the numbers on my Kessie with my good, but not perfect skills I can hit a Loki for almost full damage (51 v's 55) when that Loki is speed and size fit (90m sig rad, 610 M/s AB). Your typical 135m 530m/s cruiser gets hit for full damage (although an AB Vaga only takes 42).

Finally as far as I can tell rockets always out damage light missiles by 18-27% (better, 27%, against frigates worse against interceptors 18% and 25% against everything bigger).

So really, what is the point of this thread? Because the way I read it rockets work the same way as all the other unguided missile weapons. So really any boost to rockets should be given to all other missiles or they will then be unbalanced against other missile types. Whether they are balanced against guns is a whole different issue that I am not going to go into.

Below are typical values for various classes/situations. I can run the numbers to describe any particular situation you like, but the answers will be (qualitatively)the same.

Class________________Signature__Velocity_____DPS SM_____________DPS Rockets
Interceptor_____________32______650__________39.69952947________49.01435428
Īnterceptor w/AB________32______1527.5_______23.69577472________28.26124881
Interceptor w/MWD_______72______3900_________21.95393361________26.05018965
Frigate_________________40______400__________60.90678794________77.38541511
Frigate w/AB____________40______940__________36.35392019________44.61975482
Frigate w/MWD___________240_____2400_________60.90678794________77.38541511
Cruiser_________________135_____220__________86.44760673________108.1359223
Cruiser w/AB____________135_____517__________86.44760673________108.1359223
Cruiser w/MWD___________810_____1320_________86.44760673________108.1359223

(The forum and editing fonts are different and hence my columns wont line up Sad)

Yankunytjatjara
Amarr
Blue Republic
RvB - BLUE Republic
Posted - 2010.05.05 07:51:00 - [575]
 

SMs do alpha, not dps. I am neutral towards a change in sms explo speed, but any dps change is wrong.

Rockets compared to the other missiles isn't fair due to range, and the need to be in web range. The need to be in scram/web range, seen as you do as an advantage, or at least a synergy with the rocket range, is borderline troll imo.

Finally your numbers are a bit off, you do need a web on an ABing cruiser, perhaps you're considering basic skills? The boosts to speed are a lot more than the boosts to explosion speed.

Deva Blackfire
Viziam
Posted - 2010.05.05 08:00:00 - [576]
 

Edited by: Deva Blackfire on 05/05/2010 08:21:44
Originally by: yani dumyat
Are you two smoking crack?

I specifically stated that doubling the DPS and not touching the Ev/Er would be bad because "doubling the damage to 200 paper dps only increases the applied damage to 50 dps, this still leaves you with a big deficit compared to the dps a claw or taranis can dish out."

Go back and read the last paragraph, I said "increase the raw damage of rocket ships to the point where they are comparable to turrets." It's not a hard statement to understand. Yes rockets need an increase to Ev/Er, I've never said otherwise but I did say bring them in line with torps.



And i think YOU didnt read what we posted already. Improving DPS in any way even while changing ev/er values will mean you create 400dps vs battleship kestrels. Kestrel has MORE dps than most turret frigs in this game, no need to double it.

Quote:

A raven with a scram and web will hit for full damage against most battleships you actually meet in game, unlike rockets which do not hit for full damage against scrammed and webbed frigates that you do meet in game. The torp philosophy is good but unlike with BS where you need to balance against MWD's you need to balance the Ev/Er of rockets against AB frigates.



And here we have main problem. You CANNOT balance it against MWD and AB at the same time. Period. If you balance it to hit AB frigs good it will deal fill damage to MWD targets. If you balance it to deal full damage to MWD good (not perfect) you can be sure it will deal MUCH less damage to AB ships. Unless you boost explosion velocity or drop Er even further. In both cases you will deal "the number you want" on AB ships and WAY too much damage on anything else.

Quote:

No it wouldn't for two reasons:

1) Those numbers are not random, the whole point of player skill is to maximize the potential of your ship. Can you imagine how dull eve would be if all weapons had such a narrow range of potential DPS?



Did you ever use rockets in combat? Once? I hope you know that player skill can not improve rocket hit quality because of how missiles work: ergo doesnt matter how you pilot your ship its only up to your ENEMY to decide how hard he will get hit. Also if you dont know this already most ships/weapons get uniform damage distibution (close to maximum dps) IF you know how to pilot your ship. In the end the only weapon system that cannot get static damage are rockets because of above: its not up to you to decide how much damage enemy does, its up to him.

Quote:

2) Do you understand the missile formula? If rockets could hit a non webbed AB interceptor for 80 dps they would be doing a guaranteed 100 dps against every other frigate in the game, which is pretty dull in the first place but also leaves you woefully short of the turret ships that are hitting between 100 and 200 dps.


What do you mean by "pretty dull"? Plus its kinda hilarious how AGAIN you say that constant 100dps is bad but 200 is good. Oh yes, not constant. As you said "change ev/er to make it balanced" yet you NEVER actually stated what "balance" means to you. So come on, give exact values or expectancy against various targets: what DPS numbers you expect to get on battleship (so pretty much max dps), on non webbed AB ceptor (1,7km/s 30ish sig), webbed ceptor (600m/s, 30ish sig) and maybe AB vaga? Without this there is really no point in further discussing anything with you as your statements are as wide as "let there be world peace".

Dreed Roberts
Posted - 2010.05.05 08:15:00 - [577]
 

Originally by: Yankunytjatjara
SMs do alpha, not dps. I am neutral towards a change in sms explo speed, but any dps change is wrong.

Rockets compared to the other missiles isn't fair due to range, and the need to be in web range. The need to be in scram/web range, seen as you do as an advantage, or at least a synergy with the rocket range, is borderline troll imo.

Finally your numbers are a bit off, you do need a web on an ABing cruiser, perhaps you're considering basic skills? The boosts to speed are a lot more than the boosts to explosion speed.


Rocket range is not fair how? all the other unguided have massively shorter ranges compared to their guided equivalent.

What I meant was based on my observation that web increases DPS more than TP. Perhaps the ballance was set this way after the rocket range was chosen. Thus making it so you only had to fit one module not two (as in just a web that keeps target at your desired range and increases your DPS, as opposed to having to fit a TP for damage AND a web for maintaining range).

Finally I am not sure how you mean my numbers are off. I think you will find the calculations are correct. But if you like, give me the example ship fits you want compared and I will run them again for your specific case. However you will see that rockets will do more DPS than a light missile regardless of the case.

Deva Blackfire
Viziam
Posted - 2010.05.05 08:19:00 - [578]
 

Originally by: Dreed Roberts
Originally by: Yankunytjatjara
SMs do alpha, not dps. I am neutral towards a change in sms explo speed, but any dps change is wrong.

Rockets compared to the other missiles isn't fair due to range, and the need to be in web range. The need to be in scram/web range, seen as you do as an advantage, or at least a synergy with the rocket range, is borderline troll imo.

Finally your numbers are a bit off, you do need a web on an ABing cruiser, perhaps you're considering basic skills? The boosts to speed are a lot more than the boosts to explosion speed.


Rocket range is not fair how? all the other unguided have massively shorter ranges compared to their guided equivalent.



There is huge difference between operating in whole web range (0-17km form HAMs and same from torps) and operating in 0-6km for rockets which is not even half of web range. Why 0-6km? Fit rocket ship, fly it in combat and you will see.

Quote:
What I meant was based on my observation that web increases DPS more than TP. Perhaps the ballance was set this way after the rocket range was chosen. Thus making it so you only had to fit one module not two (as in just a web that keeps target at your desired range and increases your DPS, as opposed to having to fit a TP for damage AND a web for maintaining range).


You get outdamaged by ACs in all ranges while using rockets. Lasers just obliterate you in those distances. Hell even blasters with null will outdamage you up to circa 4km giving you only slight distance to take your advantage.

Quote:

Finally I am not sure how you mean my numbers are off. I think you will find the calculations are correct. But if you like, give me the example ship fits you want compared and I will run them again for your specific case. However you will see that rockets will do more DPS than a light missile regardless of the case.


Try AB hacs not AB thorax (which is kinda one of slowest ships). Also the fact that you cant even get half dps on AB vaga says its all: how the F can FRIG WEAPON SYSTEM not damage CRUISER for full damage, no matter the fit? I so want to see small guns (even lasers) outtracked by AB cruiser.

Vigaz
Posted - 2010.05.05 09:03:00 - [579]
 

Originally by: Deva Blackfire

You get outdamaged by ACs in all ranges while using rockets. Lasers just obliterate you in those distances. Hell even blasters with null will outdamage you up to circa 4km giving you only slight distance to take your advantage.




let me say that also small rails will outdamage rockets... and this is even more sad imo.

yani dumyat
Minmatar
Pixie Cats
Posted - 2010.05.05 10:57:00 - [580]
 

Originally by: Deva Blackfire

Improving DPS in any way even while changing ev/er values will mean you create 400dps vs battleship kestrels. Kestrel has MORE dps than most turret frigs in this game, no need to double it.



Ok I know for sure you're just trolling now, I don't have eft in front of me but I know a rocket kestrel with dual BCU's, CN rockets and lvl 5 skills does about 150 DPS, you've plucked this 400 figure out of your ass.

If you're using officer mods, overheat and uber expensive implants to fit a kezzie then thrown the number about like we should be comparing it to standard T2 fit turret frigates then please stop posting. Even dual BCU's on a kestrel are unusual due to fitting constraints.

Originally by: Deva Blackfire

Did you ever use rockets in combat? Once? I hope you know that player skill can not improve rocket hit quality because of how missiles work: ergo doesnt matter how you pilot your ship its only up to your ENEMY to decide how hard he will get hit.



Not only did I say this in my post at the bottom of the last page but I said it in two different ways in case the concept was hard to understand.

Originally by: yani dumyat

turrets....a smart pilot can manipulate transversal to their advantage. This is the main reason for the superiority of turrets over rockets

...The problem is that rockets do consistent damage irrespective of angular velocity so pilots have no way of manipulating their opponent to increase their DPS



I've used rockets in game as well as testing them against a variety of targets in fights we staged specifically for the purpose of verifying the missile spreadsheet. What I lack is combat logs from turret users, it's easy enough to calculate that X turret will do Y damage in Z situation but harder to work out how often those situations occur in game. My own experiences of turrets are heavily biased towards autocannons so I can't say my logs are representative of turret users.

As for exact numbers I'll post them when I've got my spreadsheets in front of me.

yani dumyat
Minmatar
Pixie Cats
Posted - 2010.05.05 11:22:00 - [581]
 

Originally by: Dreed Roberts

Rocket range is not fair how? all the other unguided have massively shorter ranges compared to their guided equivalent.



Paper range is not the same thing as in game range. Launch vector and target vector can dramatically influence range. Good point about the Ev/Er balance affecting the TP / web balance but I'd have bones with this statement:

Originally by: Dreed Roberts

So really any boost to rockets should be given to all other missiles or they will then be unbalanced against other missile types.


This would be true if all ship classes were the same but they're not. Cruisers and up rarely fit afterburners for pvp so arguing about AB vagas is stupid, when was the last time any of you saw a vaga with an afterburner?

Most missiles are fine for what they do in game because of the targets they shoot at, rockets are different because of the proliferation of AB frigates since QR.

Braitai
Ice Fire Warriors
Posted - 2010.05.05 11:24:00 - [582]
 

Originally by: yani dumyat
Cruisers and up rarely fit afterburners for pvp so arguing about AB vagas is stupid, when was the last time any of you saw a vaga with an afterburner?
Never, I have however seen a couple of duel prop Cynabal's.

Deva Blackfire
Viziam
Posted - 2010.05.05 11:25:00 - [583]
 

Edited by: Deva Blackfire on 05/05/2010 11:31:00
Edited by: Deva Blackfire on 05/05/2010 11:27:37
Originally by: yani dumyat
Originally by: Deva Blackfire

Improving DPS in any way even while changing ev/er values will mean you create 400dps vs battleship kestrels. Kestrel has MORE dps than most turret frigs in this game, no need to double it.



Ok I know for sure you're just trolling now, I don't have eft in front of me but I know a rocket kestrel with dual BCU's, CN rockets and lvl 5 skills does about 150 DPS, you've plucked this 400 figure out of your ass.



Funny. My kestrel does 197dps right now. You know some kids on the block can use rage rockets, overheat AND implants. Its not like you will lose pod anyways.

Quote:

If you're using officer mods, overheat and uber expensive implants to fit a kezzie then thrown the number about like we should be comparing it to standard T2 fit turret frigates then please stop posting. Even dual BCU's on a kestrel are unusual due to fitting constraints.


Ofc i am using 5% missile rof implant. And ofc im using overheat. Everyone can use those and they should be taken into account. If you dont use it its YOUR problem that you handicap yourself.

Originally by: yani dumyat

blahblahblahwordsblahblahblah i dont have anything to back up my ideas


Again: come back when you actually have something more than :words: to discuss about. Till now you thrown ideas (cool, no problem with that) but you just tried to smash all discussion into "IM RIGHT YOU ARE WRONG" tracks. So now im waiting for proof.

Quote:
Most missiles are fine for what they do in game because of the targets they shoot at, rockets are different because of the proliferation of AB frigates since QR.


You know that there are PLENTY more issues other than rocket damage vs AB frigs? Ofc anyone checking this thread (even first 3 pages) would know this.

Quote:
Cruisers and up rarely fit afterburners for pvp so arguing about AB vagas is stupid, when was the last time any of you saw a vaga with an afterburner?


So because we rarely see them we can totally ignore the fact that ANTI FRIGATE weapon system can not deal even half of its DPS to AB cruiser?

Yankunytjatjara
Amarr
Blue Republic
RvB - BLUE Republic
Posted - 2010.05.05 11:48:00 - [584]
 

Edited by: Yankunytjatjara on 05/05/2010 11:55:00
Dreed roberts, 135 is typical for caldari, let's be fair and do calculations with the average of minmatar cruisers - nobody considers other cruisers good anyway. 105 stabber and 130 rupture. With the good ol' stabber, top skills, snakes and mindlinks I think you can even reduce damage without an AB :-/

Assuming you're sincere, rather than trolling, you still miss the point with the sms/rockets comparison. You're comparing alpha to dps. Just leave the sms and other missiles out of the thread please. We're comparing short range frigate weapons here.

EDIT regarding cruisers with AB, wake up, it's the new fotm.

Deva Blackfire
Viziam
Posted - 2010.05.05 11:53:00 - [585]
 

Edited by: Deva Blackfire on 05/05/2010 12:01:35
And as clear post:

other possibility is playing with DRF value. For example with DRF of 3 (current):
1700 / 30sig - 27% damage
500 / 30 sig - 57% damage
1200 / 115 sig - 75% damage (i dunno where did he find 50% reduction on vaga... assumed his numbers were correct)

With DRF 1:
65%
83%
91%

So speed does decrease damage from rockets but not that heavily. And web does almost 50% boost to dps on AB ceptor. With slight DPS boost (say 20%) we are looking at: 70DPS on AB ceptor, 90DPS on webbed+AB, circa 100dps at others (120dps max). Imo gets kinda heavy for AB/non webbed ship.

This pretty much bumps whole damage one "bracket" up. AB ceptors get hit like webbed AB ceptors. Webbed AB ceptors get hit like MWD ceptors. No stupid uber-dps boats, damage (120dps at max) more-less on par with turrets (tad lower than turret users but better range, loses only to lasers on whole range but has tracking advantage). Needs web for uber fast combat but thats not bad i guess...

EDIT:
actually im not sure if i understand the origin of DRF correctly. Is that another independent stat on every missile type or is it derivered from Er/Ev?

Duchess Starbuckington
Posted - 2010.05.05 12:26:00 - [586]
 

Edited by: Duchess Starbuckington on 05/05/2010 12:52:25
Quote:
Ok I know for sure you're just trolling now, I don't have eft in front of me but I know a rocket kestrel with dual BCU's, CN rockets and lvl 5 skills does about 150 DPS, you've plucked this 400 figure out of your ass.


[Kestrel, Test]
Ballistic Control System II
Ballistic Control System II

[empty med slot]
[empty med slot]
[empty med slot]

Rocket Launcher II, Thorn Rage Rocket
Rocket Launcher II, Thorn Rage Rocket
Rocket Launcher II, Thorn Rage Rocket
Rocket Launcher II, Thorn Rage Rocket

Small Bay Loading Accelerator I
Small Warhead Calefaction Catalyst I
[empty rig slot]

All 5 skills no implants: 232 dps overheated. The 400 dps figure is actually pretty reasonable if you factor a buff on the scale you're talking about to sheer damage. We'd also likely be seeing 300 dps Crows, as I just threw one together capable of doing 203.

To reiterate: focusing completely on damage instead of a healthy balance between damage and velocity would produce tech 1 frigates that deal damage on par with stealth bombers.

This is unless they wanted to go the whole way and rework the ships themselves at the same time, but I can't see them doing that for anything that's not the Vindicator.

Seriously though why has this become so complicated?
1. Rockets do such ****-poor dps that unbonused weapons outdps bonused launchers
2. Explosion velocity is so poor they suffer significant damage reductions vs ABing frigates, which amplifies problem #1.
3. Rocket ships in general are poorly thought out.

Solution: (short term)
Buff explosion velocity to do ~75% damage to an average ABing frig
Buff damage to be on par with equivilent turret weapons, which would be ACs or Lasers.

Long term:
Rework the bonuses and stats on rocket using ships. Example:
Kestrel (Starbuckington variant)
5% Bonus to rocket damage per level
5% bonus to shield resistance per level

The balancing should be done around 5% bonuses because that's what most ships have with the exception of some frankly wierd tech 1 frigs. But factoring in the changes above, they'll still do reasonable dps but have a useful secondary bonus.

yani dumyat
Minmatar
Pixie Cats
Posted - 2010.05.05 12:52:00 - [587]
 

Originally by: Deva Blackfire

actually im not sure if i understand the origin of DRF correctly. Is that another independent stat on every missile type or is it derivered from Er/Ev?



Not sure how CCP originally came up with the DRF numbers but it can certainly be used as an independent stat, 3 Seems a surprisingly high number for rockets and I'm pretty sure any sensible solution will involve dropping the drf.

I'll post numbers this evening, as much as the mud slinging is amusing I'll try and keep it to the bounds of a sensible discussion ^_^

Originally by: Duchess Starbuckington

To reiterate: focusing completely on damage instead of a healthy balance between damage and velocity would produce tech 1 frigates that deal damage on par with stealth bombers.



To reiterate: At no point have I ever advocated such a thing, why are you so fixated on proving that doubling the base damage without changing the Ev is a bad thing when I've only ever stated that this would be a bad thing?

Merin Ryskin
Peregrine Industries
Posted - 2010.05.05 16:13:00 - [588]
 

Originally by: Duchess Starbuckington
[Kestrel, Test]
Ballistic Control System II
Ballistic Control System II

[empty med slot]
[empty med slot]
[empty med slot]

Rocket Launcher II, Thorn Rage Rocket
Rocket Launcher II, Thorn Rage Rocket
Rocket Launcher II, Thorn Rage Rocket
Rocket Launcher II, Thorn Rage Rocket

Small Bay Loading Accelerator I
Small Warhead Calefaction Catalyst I
[empty rig slot]



Why are we talking about failfits?


(Hint: try fitting anything useful in those mid slots. You might notice a slight lack of CPU.)






As for the OMG 9999999 DPS KESTRAL!!!!!! issue, this is only a "problem" if you're too lacking in creativity to think of the obvious solution: boost rocket/light missile dps by changing ship bonuses. For example:

Rockets and light missiles get an increase in explosion velocity and/or radius so that they can actually hit other frigates effectively.

Rockets and light missiles get a small base dps increase to bring them in line with un-bonused turrets.

The Kestrel (for example) gets no changes.

The Crow gets a small increase in its damage bonus.

The Hawk gets a major increase in its damage bonus, more grid/cpu, and the active tank bonus changed to shield resists.




See how easy it is to give a huge dps increase to the ships that desperately need it (Hawk, Vengeance, Heretic) without turning the less-crippled ships into T1 bombers?

RoCkEt X
Hostile.
PURPLE HELMETED WARRIORS
Posted - 2010.05.05 16:48:00 - [589]
 

rocket speed? i'm pretty damn fast tbh ugh

Gypsio III
Dirty Filthy Perverts
Posted - 2010.05.05 20:02:00 - [590]
 

DRF is an arbitrary number that controls how intensely the % damage applied decreases when a target is going to fast. A high DRF means that the damage falls like a cliff. Significantly lowering rocket DRF could be part of a solution.

Dreed Roberts
Posted - 2010.05.05 21:59:00 - [591]
 

Originally by: Gypsio III
DRF is an arbitrary number that controls how intensely the % damage applied decreases when a target is going to fast. A high DRF means that the damage falls like a cliff. Significantly lowering rocket DRF could be part of a solution.


Further more the unguided and damage variants have higher Drfs than the guided and precision variants. This is a value that each charge has not each launcher.

Duchess Starbuckington
Posted - 2010.05.05 22:21:00 - [592]
 

Quote:
As for the OMG 9999999 DPS KESTRAL!!!!!! issue, this is only a "problem" if you're too lacking in creativity to think of the obvious solution: boost rocket/light missile dps by changing ship bonuses


It should be noted I did note the need for bonus changes. The failfit was just an example. (And yes, thanks to CPU the mids are limited to a grand total of AB, scram and... umm... named sensor booster? Yeah...)

Deva Blackfire
Viziam
Posted - 2010.05.05 22:22:00 - [593]
 

Edited by: Deva Blackfire on 05/05/2010 22:29:35
Yeh i know its missile stat and that every missile type has different value. I wasnt just sure if was derivered from Er/Ev or if it was totally independent stat. Now i know its independent.

EDIT:
When it comes to ship balance i can speak mostly about heretic. It has atrocius CPU (most issues would be solved by reducing CPU/grid use on rocket launchers). If heretic could fit 2x bcu without cpu issues it would be quite good boat. As it is now its kinda weak. Example of "perfect" heretic setup:

[Heretic, New Setup 1]
Co-Processor II
Damage Control II
Overdrive Injector System II

1MN MicroWarpdrive I
Faint Epsilon Warp Scrambler I
Medium F-S9 Regolith Shield Induction

Interdiction Sphere Launcher I, Warp Disrupt Probe
Small Unstable Power Fluctuator I
Rocket Launcher II, Caldari Navy Foxfire Rocket
Rocket Launcher II, Caldari Navy Foxfire Rocket
Rocket Launcher II, Caldari Navy Foxfire Rocket
Rocket Launcher II, Caldari Navy Foxfire Rocket
Rocket Launcher II, Caldari Navy Foxfire Rocket
Rocket Launcher II, Caldari Navy Foxfire Rocket

Small Warhead Calefaction Catalyst I
Small Bay Loading Accelerator I

Without coproc you have 15cpu left and no place to shave it off so no DC. If you drop neut you have 24 cpu left so can fit dc + another od/nano but most ceptors will escape you (either web and burn or just move away via counter-scrambling and being faster... at 7km you wont hit them with rockets anyways).

The above setup is for "spider" style dictor: drag bubble + catching ceptors. Yes i know sabre is better but its kinda rewarding when you kill say taranis with this ship :)

143dps with foxfires (including 1 damage mod in form of rigs). Sabre with 1 damage mod does 290 dps... So i think in this case heretic should get ANOTHER launcher slot (+fittings to use it) + boost to rocket damage (plain boost on launchers at circa 20%) + maybe even boost to heretic damage so it would land in low 200dps (~220 would seem fine for damage mod dictor). Same for catcher and eris (eris is totally different story - needs slot change to 8/3/3).

EDIT2:
those forums are ****ing awful

Dreed Roberts
Posted - 2010.05.06 02:13:00 - [594]
 

Originally by: Deva Blackfire

Quote:
What I meant was based on my observation that web increases DPS more than TP. Perhaps the ballance was set this way after the rocket range was chosen. Thus making it so you only had to fit one module not two (as in just a web that keeps target at your desired range and increases your DPS, as opposed to having to fit a TP for damage AND a web for maintaining range).


You get outdamaged by ACs in all ranges while using rockets. Lasers just obliterate you in those distances. Hell even blasters with null will outdamage you up to circa 4km giving you only slight distance to take your advantage.
Quote:

Finally I am not sure how you mean my numbers are off. I think you will find the calculations are correct. But if you like, give me the example ship fits you want compared and I will run them again for your specific case. However you will see that rockets will do more DPS than a light missile regardless of the case.


Try AB hacs not AB thorax (which is kinda one of slowest ships). Also the fact that you cant even get half dps on AB vaga says its all: how the F can FRIG WEAPON SYSTEM not damage CRUISER for full damage, no matter the fit? I so want to see small guns (even lasers) outtracked by AB cruiser.


er dude my numbers with the vaga were not percentages. They were damage per rocket.

Here you go then all 5 v's all 5 AB cyanabal (110m, 380m/s) v's Kessie (no damage mods cause they wont change the ratio)
max damage per rocket, 51.56
damage no prop, 51.56
damage AB (1075m/s), 39.15 or 76%
and in the same situation the small missile does 128 max damage and 103 (80%) against the AB
(I am buggered if I know how you think this is a reasonable comparison of ships though)

Secondly guns always out damage missiles. Always, in every weapon size guns do more damage than the missile equivalent. Are you trying to sneak a missile buff in? So I am not sure what your point about guns out damaging rockets is. I really don't understand what you are getting at.

Originally by: yani dumyat

Originally by: Dreed Roberts

So really any boost to rockets should be given to all other missiles or they will then be unbalanced against other missile types.


This would be true if all ship classes were the same but they're not. Cruisers and up rarely fit afterburners for pvp so arguing about AB vagas is stupid, when was the last time any of you saw a vaga with an afterburner?

Most missiles are fine for what they do in game because of the targets they shoot at, rockets are different because of the proliferation of AB frigates since QR.


Well I was providing AB vagas as a worst case example. Rockets do full damage to all cruisers with a MWD or no prop.

You are aware (everyone) that a MWD provides 0 protection from missiles unless you have a MWD signature reduction bonus? (ignoring the faction items)


Sorry I think I am missing the point of this thread. Is it

a) rockets do poor dps compared to short range guns?
b) rockets are much worse than small missiles due to an error in their stats?
c) rockets don't do enough damage to bigger ships?
d) Rocket based ship are crap compared to gun based ships?


if its a) then wake up and smell the coffee, all missiles do less damage than their gun equivalents.

if it is b) then just run the numbers and you will see that they are not worse than small missiles.

if it is c) then nor do small missiles.

if it is d) then I totally agree, however I think it has more to do with the the ships themselves and missiles in general than rockets in particular.

Can anyone give me an appropriate transversal speed (and range) for a gunship fighting a vaga? I want to run the comparison and see how much damage reduction guns suffer in the same situation.

Dreed Roberts
Posted - 2010.05.06 03:02:00 - [595]
 

Hang on I thought of e!

e) rockets and small/light/standard missiles are not balanced compared to other missiles against their designated class?

if its e) then I am not totally sure I would need to run the numbers to get the comparisons out. However one thing I have noticed is that there is not much difference in DRF between smalls and meds. Perhaps a reduction in DRF for both small missile chrage types would be an appropriate way of boosting DPS against small fast targets without making them BBQ above...

Braitai
Ice Fire Warriors
Posted - 2010.05.06 05:00:00 - [596]
 

Originally by: Dreed Roberts
Sorry I think I am missing the point of this thread.
Do you use rockets? There's a difference between looking at stats and how they actually function in the game. SML's do get similar reductions in damage vs fast targets. The reason people do not complain about them as much is because they have 4 times the range, and they travel faster. This is a similar, proportional difference between HAM's and HML's but it's more of an issue at frig level because...

A. It puts you in neut/scram/web range
B. The high speed of frigates compared with the travel speed of rockets can cut more into their range.
C. Tracking of other long range weapons, rails/arty/beams is a big issue with fast long range frigates like ceptors, something SML users don't have to worry about.

I think SML's could use a small boost as well actually, but they're not nearly as broken as rockets.

The last page or so of this thread has gotten a bit out of control TBH. A few people got the impression that Yani was saying something he wasn't, it actually sounds like people have similar ideas on how to fix the problems with rockets. Slight boost to DPS, but more importantly improve their ability to hit faster targets, either boosting ER, EV, or DRF.

I think a big issue with rockets that hasn't been discussed much here is that in the right set of circumstances,the fact that rockets do not require tracking is a huge advantage. But, that advantage can't be utilised by all ships

Originally by: Deva Blackfire
You get outdamaged by ACs in all ranges while using rockets. Lasers just obliterate you in those distances. Hell even blasters with null will outdamage you up to circa 4km giving you only slight distance to take your advantage.
This is not always true. You may not be able to fly manually to increase rocket DPS, but you can fly in such a way as to decrease your opponants dps, without impacting your own damage output.

A laser boat will have tracking problems below it's optimal. If it flies in a straight line to decrease the damage it's taking from rockets, it's own tracking will be terrible if it's being orbited at 500m by a faster opponant. Whereas if it turns to try and reduce transversal, it's own velocity will drop and will begin to take more damage. Rockets have better range than small AC's. If ambits+barrage are employed, that cuts into their DPS and tracking.

What all this means is that a ship's ability to dictate range impacts a rocket boat's effectiveness on two levels. If it can't do that, not only will you do less damage, but you'll take more damage as well. A scram/web/rocket fit Malediction will beat any MWD Crusader, and most Claws. It's usefulness is quite situational though, and if I'm in a fleet I'm usually packing a long point/scram with AC's, as rockets are useless without the web. Although I don't fly it, I'd say a hookbill would probably make a semi viable rocket boat as well, given it's number of mid slots. The others either lack slots or speed to make up for the abysmal ER that rockets have. I don't know why anyone would fly a rocket Crow over a Malediction. You need to be in scram/web range so the velocity bonus is a waste, 20% extra damage doesn't make up for having a wafer thin tank, and it's slower.

Deva Blackfire
Viziam
Posted - 2010.05.06 09:15:00 - [597]
 

Edited by: Deva Blackfire on 06/05/2010 09:31:30
Quote:

Secondly guns always out damage missiles. Always, in every weapon size guns do more damage than the missile equivalent. Are you trying to sneak a missile buff in? So I am not sure what your point about guns out damaging rockets is. I really don't understand what you are getting at.



They do i agree. But like i said in one of my posts earlier - not to such an extent. Rockets are close range missiles, yes? So lets compare them to HAMs and torps (in their own weight classes). No drones in comparison.

Torps on raven (6x siege t2, CN ammo): 537 dps. Geddon (7x megapulse, AN MF) 517dps. Mega (7x neutron blaster, CN AM): 537 dps. So all in all raven isnt the weakest of them all. Torps actually sit in line with other weapon systems (well are even tad better due to 1 less launcher being comparable to 7 guns) and only drones on other ships give them huge advantage. Still its around 10% difference from top damage dealers.

HAMs:
Sac (CN HAM): 282dps, Zealot (hvy pulse + multi) 346dps, Vaga (220 + RF EMP): 289dps. So again kinda in line (zealot since 5th turret always had kinda large dps numbers). But even against zealot thats only 20% difference.

Rockets:
Diction (CN gremlin): 60dps. Crusader (DPL + AN MF): 135. Ranis (neutron) 156. Claw (3x 150mm RF EMP): 117. So against claw thats almost 50% difference. 55% against sader. 62% against ranis. I know all 3 are combat ceptors and maled is tackle ceptor but still... it pales in comparison to other ships in class especially if you look at it knowing that HAMs and torps are competetive.

Vengeance 78dps. Jaguar (3x 150mm) 117dps.Harpy (4x electron blaster - dunno what harpies use) 134 dps. Against jag thats 35% difference. Against harpy 42%.
So again - in its own ship class (and i cant call it "tackle AF" this time) rockets are waaay behind. So even excluding fix to explo velocity/DRM/whatever rockets need plain DPS boost.

The 20% i proposed would give veng 94dps. Still behind but falling only 20% short of jag. Diction 72dps... thats still lagging way behind. Dunno - this + 10% damage boost on diction instead of 5%? Anyways wanted only to show that missiles in their own ship classes work ok. Except rockets which are far behind.

Quote:
A laser boat will have tracking problems below it's optimal. If it flies in a straight line to decrease the damage it's taking from rockets, it's own tracking will be terrible if it's being orbited at 500m by a faster opponant. Whereas if it turns to try and reduce transversal, it's own velocity will drop and will begin to take more damage. Rockets have better range than small AC's. If ambits+barrage are employed, that cuts into their DPS and tracking.


I fly (flown) all 4 weapon types on frig hulls so i know how they work. And even if you turn around to get better tracking vs rocket user you will just obliterate him. Because his full damage just sucks in comparison to your full damage. Laser ships will have biggest issues (worst tracking at 500m) so sader needs to scramble somewhere in half-web range so enemy has to either move closer to 500m orbit (and get full burst of lazor in face - preferably overheated) or stick around just outside of lazor range (which rocket ship cant do because scorch range on gatlings reaches further than rockets fly). Ofc thats problem with sader - it lacks web so you can outtrack it.
Vs 150mm claw (+barrage) at 6km he will be hitting for circa 65 dps. Thats the same number rockets get. So rockets can get advantage just above 6km (around 6-7,5km). Ofc rocket ship has to turn towards claw so rockets can reach it = less speed = claw can catch up back in range. Its just edging on effective barrage range again. In close distance its again outtrack game tho tad harder.
Vs taranis? Only way to keep outside of null. But whats funny 2 ranis drones will do 60% (or more) of all rocket ship DPS. O+Faloff on null is almost 7km (40% of dps) which leaves you with almost 60dps. Obvious result.

onetoke overtheline
Posted - 2010.05.06 11:02:00 - [598]
 

this forums over a year old, get over it

Duchess Starbuckington
Posted - 2010.05.06 11:28:00 - [599]
 

Originally by: onetoke overtheline
this forums over a year old, get over it


Troll elsewhere please.

S'qarpium D'igil
Posted - 2010.05.06 16:04:00 - [600]
 

Where is the rockets hotfix?


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