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Tagami Wasp
Caldari
Sarz'na Khumatari
Ushra'Khan
Posted - 2010.01.18 19:09:00 - [301]
 

Because this is more important than Vindicator:

FIX THA ROCKETS!!!!!!!!!

Darcon Kylote
Posted - 2010.01.20 15:35:00 - [302]
 

K, so 1.1 is in the can. All efforts, redirect to rocket and AF fixes. GO GO GO!!!!!

Uh, rite?

Deva Blackfire
Viziam
Posted - 2010.01.20 16:26:00 - [303]
 

Im quite sure there are more important issues like adding drone mining bonus on moros and proteus or something similiar. Stop asking for long overdue fixes.

/sarcasm

Duchess Starbuckington
Posted - 2010.01.20 19:28:00 - [304]
 

Edited by: Duchess Starbuckington on 20/01/2010 20:47:55
Edited by: Duchess Starbuckington on 20/01/2010 19:39:48
Originally by: Deva Blackfire
Im quite sure there are more important issues like adding drone mining bonus on moros and proteus or something similiar. Stop asking for long overdue fixes.

/sarcasm


Vindicator
1 number changed (?)
Affected ships: 1
Affected number of players: negligable

Rockets
2 numbers needing change
Affected ships: About 12 by my count?
Affected number of players: ****loads.

Yeah.
I mean I can understand catering to the people with too much ISK to an extent, but maybe stop ignoring the stuff vastly more people fly (or would fly)?

2ofSpades
Posted - 2010.01.20 20:24:00 - [305]
 

Vengeance gets less then 150dps with all level 5 skills where every other AF gets 200dps. Rockets need more base dmg. In EFT it takes 3 navy BCU's+2 dmg rigs for 190dps with all lvl5. Expl vel 126? standard missles 268? Help needed there also. Plz fix rockets

Duchess Starbuckington
Posted - 2010.01.20 20:48:00 - [306]
 

Originally by: 2ofSpades
Vengeance gets less then 150dps with all level 5 skills where every other AF gets 200dps. Rockets need more base dmg. In EFT it takes 3 navy BCU's+2 dmg rigs for 190dps with all lvl5. Expl vel 126? standard missles 268? Help needed there also. Plz fix rockets


Nah, they're too busy with ships a tiny handful of people will ever actually fly to give a **** about a weapon they built a dozen ships around using.

CCP Abathur


C C P
C C P Alliance
Posted - 2010.01.20 21:01:00 - [307]
 

Edited by: CCP Abathur on 20/01/2010 21:01:16
Originally by: Deva Blackfire
Im quite sure there are more important issues like adding drone mining bonus on moros and proteus or something similiar.


I was gonna look into rockets until I was distracted by this amazing suggestion.

Edit - Yes, it's in our backlog and not forgotten. Razz

Duchess Starbuckington
Posted - 2010.01.20 22:53:00 - [308]
 

Originally by: CCP Abathur
Edited by: CCP Abathur on 20/01/2010 21:01:16
Originally by: Deva Blackfire
Im quite sure there are more important issues like adding drone mining bonus on moros and proteus or something similiar.


I was gonna look into rockets until I was distracted by this amazing suggestion.

Edit - Yes, it's in our backlog and not forgotten. Razz


THERE IS HOPE.
/me buys out every Hawk (and mining drone) in Jita ready to put them up at 60mil ISK.

Silver Tongues
Posted - 2010.01.21 00:24:00 - [309]
 

Originally by: CCP Abathur
Edited by: CCP Abathur on 20/01/2010 21:01:16
Originally by: Deva Blackfire
Im quite sure there are more important issues like adding drone mining bonus on moros and proteus or something similiar.


I was gonna look into rockets until I was distracted by this amazing suggestion.

Edit - Yes, it's in our backlog and not forgotten. Razz


While this gives me hope (and a grin with the nice mock troll), I begin to wonder how full your backlog is and how long it will actually be before Rockets are taken a real look at by CCP.

2ofSpades
Posted - 2010.01.21 03:36:00 - [310]
 

Edited by: 2ofSpades on 21/01/2010 04:07:22
I think one of the main things that CCP would be thinking about that would become a problem is the affect on say maybe an already overpowered rifter now even more out of balance due to fitting this new bad azz rocket that does way more dps. So maybe while expl vel needs to be adj all around, dmg only needs to come up on some ships. If they really are working on it which they prob are along with the all the random stuff they get to fix, then let them do their thing. CCP says post 1.1, but they are still showing notice that its on the list at least. Updates come out like every month so it shouldnt be too much longer. People dont like to be told they are not doing their job when they are trying to finish it. A simple fix rockets, what you are planing to use them on and what you expect is nice to keep this thread up top saying that this is what people are intrested in. It doesnt let CCP forget that in a slew of other stuff.
EDIT-I also think the hawk should be another rocket platform AF.

Gypsio III
Dirty Filthy Perverts
Posted - 2010.01.21 17:17:00 - [311]
 

Some thoughts about what a rocket fix would consist of...

Currently rockets require web and scrambler support to deal a meaningful % damage. Requiring a scrambler is fine - rocket platforms operate within scrambler range and would want to fit one anyway. The web requirement is an interesting one and deserves some comments.

A turret frigate may find its damage mitigated by tracking and optimal issues. A web serves to restrict those issues; however, manual piloting can also serve to minimise that damage mitigation, by closing to optimal or by minimising transversal, as with web-lacking MSE Rifter. With rockets, however, that option is simply not there - absolute speed is the key, and hence a web is essential. Several points follow from this:

Unless rocket explosion velocity is massively increased, a web will still be essential on a rocket platform, to apply good DPS, even before considering factors relating to range control. Question - what % damage to an unwebbed ABing frigate would be considered sufficient for the rocket platform to consider not fitting a web?

Afterburners are relatively common on frigates, whether alone or part of a dual-prop configuration. Currently, an ABing Ishkur (sig 39 m, speed ~900 m/s) takes 44% damage from a rocket. To deal 75% damage, the rocket would need an explosion velocity of ~300 m/s (after TNP V). Even in this case, I suspect that a web would still be compulsory on a rocket platform, giving, in this case, 33% more applied damage and assisting with range control. It also follows that at any lower level of explosion velocity increase, a web is still essential. My conclusion here is that no realistic change to rocket explosion velocity will change the essential nature of a web on a rocket platform. This has important implications for the slot layouts and range of viable fits of rocket platforms. The Hawk, for example, simply does not have the medslots to support the propulsion mod, scrambler, web, shield booster implied by its off-racial shield boost bonus and the cap booster require to fuel it.

However, it is generally accepted that rocket damage even when 100% damage is being dealt is too low. For example, a Malediction with max-skilled rockets does a pathetic 66 DPS maximum, and a rocket-Worm is arguably inferior to an MSE Ishkur. Increasing the explosion velocity alone will not change this - an increase in rocket base damage is required.

A final thought relate to the ease of mitigation of rocket damage. An AB can halve the damage taken by an unwebbed frigate. While ABs need to mitigate some rocket damage to avoid being pointless, this halving is far too much for the current low-base-damage rockets. Ways of fixing this are to increase explosion velocity or base damage as mentioned, but decreasing rocket DRF would also reduce this degree of damage mitigation, and could serve as an alternative to changes in explosion velocity, which might otherwise prove a rather blunt tool.

Cobalt Sixty
Caldari
Perkone
Posted - 2010.01.21 21:05:00 - [312]
 

Originally by: Gypsio III
- and a rocket-Worm is arguably inferior to an MSE Ishkur.

While I agree that Rockets need to be looked at by CCP (Mostly because I want an incentive to fly a Vengeance other than "oh well, at least it has three gun turrets, too") is the above example really a fair comparison? I didn't think Faction is meant to match up to or excel against Tech II, rather to present something "different".

Kadesh Priestess
Scalding Chill
Posted - 2010.01.21 21:37:00 - [313]
 

Edited by: Kadesh Priestess on 21/01/2010 21:37:36
It's not empire faction, it's pirate. Pirate vessels are usually unique, but in case with Worm it can be directly compared with Ishkur - their 2 main differences are tank type and weapon system. As pirate frigate shouldn't have t2 'assault' resists and still should be better than t2 by some degree (i remember some post/devblog from ccp official mentioning that pirate ships are intended to be at this level) - imo worm should get superior dps (it can be bonus to drones or boosted rockets) and/or ability to fit good buffer tank (i doubt it can get more efficient active tank than ishkur).

Duchess Starbuckington
Posted - 2010.01.21 21:50:00 - [314]
 

Originally by: Cobalt Sixty
Originally by: Gypsio III
- and a rocket-Worm is arguably inferior to an MSE Ishkur.

While I agree that Rockets need to be looked at by CCP (Mostly because I want an incentive to fly a Vengeance other than "oh well, at least it has three gun turrets, too") is the above example really a fair comparison? I didn't think Faction is meant to match up to or excel against Tech II, rather to present something "different".


There's "different" and there's "hilariously inferior ship for 4x the cost".

Gypsio III
Dirty Filthy Perverts
Posted - 2010.01.21 23:10:00 - [315]
 

Originally by: Cobalt Sixty
Originally by: Gypsio III
- and a rocket-Worm is arguably inferior to an MSE Ishkur.

While I agree that Rockets need to be looked at by CCP (Mostly because I want an incentive to fly a Vengeance other than "oh well, at least it has three gun turrets, too") is the above example really a fair comparison? I didn't think Faction is meant to match up to or excel against Tech II, rather to present something "different".


While "something different" would certainly be nice - the Daredevil and the Dramiel have unique features in massive DPS and web, and super speeeeeeeed - the fact is that the current Worm is very similar to the MSE Ishkur. The Worm has an extra midslot, but worse resists, worse DPS, less PG, larger sig, about the same EHP... and that's about it. Given that similarity, it needs to be "better", otherwise what's the point of the bloody thing? But this is about the Worm really, not rockets as such.

Braitai
Ice Fire Warriors
Posted - 2010.01.22 00:50:00 - [316]
 

Originally by: Gypsio III
Currently rockets require web and scrambler support to deal a meaningful % damage. Requiring a scrambler is fine - rocket platforms operate within scrambler range and would want to fit one anyway.
Untrue. Crows, Worms and Hawks can shoot rockets from outside web range. In fact with javelins(yes yes - javs suck) all rocket ships can. Not only that but it's irrelevent when fighting anything with an AB, even a duel prop ceptor gets almost as much damage reduction from a t2 AB than from a MWD. The Dramiel, which is currently the fastest ship in the game, doesn't get a MWD sig bloom reduction. In this case a scrambler is almost irrelevant as far as damage applied goes.

Kadesh Priestess
Scalding Chill
Posted - 2010.01.22 06:57:00 - [317]
 

Edited by: Kadesh Priestess on 22/01/2010 06:58:23
The most often used on Dramiel is dual-prop fitting. Guess how much damage it would take while AB'ing under web with speed of 1k and sig 32m (36-37 with MSE).

Gypsio III
Dirty Filthy Perverts
Posted - 2010.01.22 08:42:00 - [318]
 

Originally by: Braitai
Originally by: Gypsio III
Currently rockets require web and scrambler support to deal a meaningful % damage. Requiring a scrambler is fine - rocket platforms operate within scrambler range and would want to fit one anyway.
Untrue. Crows, Worms and Hawks can shoot rockets from outside web range. In fact with javelins(yes yes - javs suck) all rocket ships can. Not only that but it's irrelevent when fighting anything with an AB, even a duel prop ceptor gets almost as much damage reduction from a t2 AB than from a MWD. The Dramiel, which is currently the fastest ship in the game, doesn't get a MWD sig bloom reduction. In this case a scrambler is almost irrelevant as far as damage applied goes.


Given the speed penalty of Javs, the chance of the rocket platform remaining outside web range in a frigate fight is not great, making Jav use difficult. The AB comment - yes, that's obvious, thanks.

Tagami Wasp
Caldari
Sarz'na Khumatari
Ushra'Khan
Posted - 2010.01.26 17:49:00 - [319]
 

bump

0racle
Galactic Rangers
Galactic-Rangers
Posted - 2010.01.27 13:48:00 - [320]
 

Tbh wouldn't expect this to be fixed, i've experimented a little, but it is possible to get standard missiles on say, a Vengeance, all you need is AWU V, atleast then it wont take 6-8 rockets to take out a Hi-sec Belt Rat, on a T2 Fitted T2 Assault ship.

Pohbis
Neo T.E.C.H.
Posted - 2010.02.01 19:42:00 - [321]
 

I would just like to point out that some Amarr ships fit RAWKITS as well.

There, that should be enough to get the Devs attention.




Great Artista
Caldari
Veto.
Veto Corp
Posted - 2010.02.03 00:49:00 - [322]
 

Thread was already halfway down the 1st page, up! YARRRR!!

Georn
VIRTUAL LIFE VANGUARD
Strategic Operations Brigade
Posted - 2010.02.03 14:20:00 - [323]
 

Originally by: CCP Abathur
Edited by: CCP Abathur on 20/01/2010 21:01:16
Originally by: Deva Blackfire
Im quite sure there are more important issues like adding drone mining bonus on moros and proteus or something similiar.


I was gonna look into rockets until I was distracted by this amazing suggestion.



Mining bonus for the Moros?? WTF!

Give us Capital mining drones first!!11
You can simply take the Fighterbombers, let them land on asteroids and the little Pilots could work with Pick, Shovel and Laserdrill .. maybe trip about cables sometimes.. so we can have something to look at.
The Cyclops is just shouting to harvest gas.

well..
and look into rockets if you have some time.
Thanks CCP Folks for handing us this amazing game that we enjoy so much we even write threadnougts of suggestions and complains..
It only shows we care. :)

Keep it coming (c;

Sprilk
Posted - 2010.02.04 02:37:00 - [324]
 

Originally by: CCP Abathur
Edited by: CCP Abathur on 20/01/2010 21:01:16
Originally by: Deva Blackfire
Im quite sure there are more important issues like adding drone mining bonus on moros and proteus or something similiar.


I was gonna look into rockets until I was distracted by this amazing suggestion.

Edit - Yes, it's in our backlog and not forgotten. Razz


What i dont understand is why its not front and center at this point... rockets have been totaly broken forever and you know it...

So, my theory goes there is a large fix in the works for missiles in general... or you would not be putting off the fairly simple fix (of change the damage and explosion velocity) updating the numbers cant be that hard..... so what are you really working on? whats in store for us missile users?

Duchess Starbuckington
Posted - 2010.02.04 09:20:00 - [325]
 

Originally by: Sprilk
Originally by: CCP Abathur
Edited by: CCP Abathur on 20/01/2010 21:01:16
Originally by: Deva Blackfire
Im quite sure there are more important issues like adding drone mining bonus on moros and proteus or something similiar.


I was gonna look into rockets until I was distracted by this amazing suggestion.

Edit - Yes, it's in our backlog and not forgotten. Razz


What i dont understand is why its not front and center at this point... rockets have been totaly broken forever and you know it...

So, my theory goes there is a large fix in the works for missiles in general... or you would not be putting off the fairly simple fix (of change the damage and explosion velocity) updating the numbers cant be that hard..... so what are you really working on? whats in store for us missile users?


The (over?)optimistic side of me thinks this may well be the case.
The only real explanation for how long it's taking for a simple fix is that it isn't a simple fix and in fact multiple buffs and fundamental changes.

But hey if it isn't, lateness aside I'd just be grateful for having an excuse to fly a Hawk or Vengeance. Or having my Crow fixed... or... ok I'm stopping now.

Phantom Slave
Universal Pest Exterminators
Posted - 2010.02.04 15:55:00 - [326]
 

Originally by: Duchess Starbuckington
The (over?)optimistic side of me thinks this may well be the case.
The only real explanation for how long it's taking for a simple fix is that it isn't a simple fix and in fact multiple buffs and fundamental changes.

But hey if it isn't, lateness aside I'd just be grateful for having an excuse to fly a Hawk or Vengeance. Or having my Crow fixed... or... ok I'm stopping now.


Doesn't necessarily have to be multiple buffs that is taking a while. It could be that they're changing rockets so they actually launch out of your ship in the direction of the target instead of a static direction, waisting precious flight time as it has to flip around and go back to the target.

I'm hopeful at least.

Krennel Darius
Caldari
EON Solutions
The Laughing Men
Posted - 2010.02.04 22:34:00 - [327]
 

Originally by: Darcon Kylote
K, so 1.1 is in the can. All efforts, redirect to rocket and AF fixes. GO GO GO!!!!!

Uh, rite?



Laughing

Duchess Starbuckington
Posted - 2010.02.08 01:03:00 - [328]
 

Bump.

Vigaz
Posted - 2010.02.08 14:52:00 - [329]
 

Edited by: Vigaz on 08/02/2010 15:49:12
raw DPS is just one factor of a weapon but:

Torp Raven has more dps than a rail Rokh? yes!
HAM Cerberus has more dps than a rail Eagle? yes!
Any Rocket frig has more dps than a rail Harpy? NO!

I can use a weapon system that require me to web/tp/whatever (I'm missile user)... but rocket base damage is just too low!






Major Trant
Blue Republic
Posted - 2010.02.11 17:31:00 - [330]
 

Missile / Rocket range is based on Flight Time x Speed.

Yet people in this thread and others talk about, initial speed up time and if kiting the enemy how the Missile / Rocket is launched forward and then has to turn back. Surely these factors are just graphics.

I can't imagine the difficulties of trying to calculate the launch speed up time range loss and the relative direction the firing ship is travelling and the loss of range while the missile turns around. I can't believe any programmer would have attempted to make such calculations without thinking 'oh it would be logical for the missile turret to spin to face the enemy like a gun turret' and he just wouldn't bother with launch speed up time.

Instead he would surely use something simple like Flight Time x Speed?

Frankly, I wouldn't be surprised if they didn't even bother considering the distance and direction the target moved before the Missile / Rocket arrived, nevermind the curvature of the missile path as it followed the target. Instead just took a snapshot at the firing time - yes target is in range, checkbox, hit is assured.

So if anyone has any official data on what the actual calcualations are please post, but if you are just sprouting off what seems logical based on observing a crappy graphic without considering the enormaty of the calculation, please don't.


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