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Synderella Icateoux
Posted - 2009.02.19 21:13:00 - [1]
 

Heya,

Time for a little feedback on the four sleeper complexes Oneiromancer let us do today. Cool

  • I was scanning down the complexes in a decently tanked Proteus. As I warped to the first site with 2 Sleeper BS in, I almost got popped before the rest of the fleet arrived 30 seconds later. Ouch! Might have been bad luck as I had an EM resist hole, might be that the BS are dishing out a little too much. Survived with 12% hull and only because they switched targets.

  • Overall we were mowing through the NPCs pretty fast, do they have a "standard" tank? Especially the BS didn't live very long. Bear in mind we had lots of people and some two supercaps so it could be that. It would be best to take individual players for test fights against single Sleepers if you haven't already.

  • I only had an afterburner fitted, top speed was 700m/s, and I was constantly out of the range of the frigs as they started running away. My Warrior IIs in some cases were TANKED by the frigs, wth? Overall frigs = biggest nuisance, esp. if you have no web.

  • The hard site we did last seemed too easy. Granted, some rooks and other fluffy stuff did pop, but fluff deserves to pop. I think we lost like 5 ships, then killed most of the Sleepers. Some feedback from the supercap pilots whether they were remote repping and whether they were getting primaried by the rats would be nice; they didn't respond in fleet.

  • You should make it impossible for caps and supercaps to enter WH space, or make it so that the WH very likely collapses after a cap. I do want hard WH space to be a challenge for the players, but enticing cap ship carebearing and thus locking out the newer/poorer players is the worst thing that can happen here, imho. I know a lot of people are gonna whine all day at me now, but as far as I'm concerned, caps are a complete no-no for wormhole space.

  • Obviously then the second choice is using logistics. Fine by me, but give Sleepers some ewar, both disabling targetting (jammers/damps) and killing capacitor, to make that a little less..... predictable or reliable if you want.


Bottom line: Sleeper BS seeeemed a little "all gank no tank", I may be off there due to the big fleet we had though, and the frigs were really annoying. You need a web and painters to get rid of them.

Another thing i noticed is the ridiculous size of the loot and salvage, is that to encourage marauders? Too expensive (the Marauders). Gonna result in battle Transport Ships, or caps/orcas if they can enter. Both = bah :/ cause nobody wants to sit in a transport ship all the time while the fight is going on, so it gives people with two accounts a little advantage again.

That's it from me; it was only a short test session and honestly, this stuff needs to be tested in a small, more organized gang. Thanks for the fun though!

Tataki

Sunbird Huy
Caldari
WEPRA CORP
White Noise.
Posted - 2009.02.19 21:17:00 - [2]
 

Edited by: Sunbird Huy on 19/02/2009 21:17:23
Signed.

Your gang might have been a bit of a overkill hehehe.

Oh snap! I'm first!Cool

Arno Villanova
Amarr
Ministry of War
Posted - 2009.02.19 21:20:00 - [3]
 

cool

An Anarchyyt
Gallente
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
Posted - 2009.02.19 21:26:00 - [4]
 

Even with Prism artificially setting the wormhole mass to something very high, a Mothership still managed to collapse the wormhole. So, I don't really think that's an issue.

Megan Maynard
Minmatar
Navigators of the Abyss
Posted - 2009.02.19 21:29:00 - [5]
 

Edited by: Megan Maynard on 19/02/2009 21:29:43
Sweet! Much better post then most.

And PS, warping into a BS gang with just a cruiser is usually not a fun thing to do. Glad to see the sleepers are at least halfway similar to real pvp.

MotherMoon
Huang Yinglong
Posted - 2009.02.19 21:30:00 - [6]
 

Edited by: MotherMoon on 19/02/2009 21:33:30
I feel like they should tone down the dps, and increase sleeper hp.

I mean... a sleep battleship should be dealing out....300-400 dps, one top of super nueting and web and AI.

if you want them to do more dps, have them launch drones? so we can at least kill some of thier dps or run away from it?

smartbombs?

Quote:
You should make it impossible for caps and supercaps to enter WH space, or make it so that the WH very likely collapses after a cap. I do want hard WH space to be a challenge for the players, but enticing cap ship carebearing and thus locking out the newer/poorer players is the worst thing that can happen here, imho. I know a lot of people are gonna whine all day at me now, but as far as I'm concerned, caps are a complete no-no for wormhole space.


this is my biggest fear...

I want my logtiiscs cruiser to be useful. not that it wouldn't be useful, but it will be more useful is super caps can't get in.

and if they can get in, make it rare?

Paridoth
Trannyz
Posted - 2009.02.19 21:43:00 - [7]
 

Edited by: Paridoth on 19/02/2009 21:51:56
was so fun! of course it was only fun because we where in sisi seeing as how I lost a faction fit cnr, and 3 rigged ravens, in real eve i would be screwed.

IMHO the only way to do the harder anomolies that we ran into is with very very very well coordinated capital logistics. and massive blobs. which of course worm holes restrict the crap out of via there mass restriction. otherwise we saw our regular logistics becoming primary and alpha'd if he didn't run like hell

my 1200 dps perma run tank was melted when i got primaried. passive tank command ships like night hawks held for a few mins but would have broken eventually if we didn't have capital logistics. on the lighter side we did lots of easier plexes, before the nasty one that ate my ships to death, that where very doable in a small gang so that's cool.

I didnt have a chance to look at the loot or salvage, my main concern is that all you get from all this hard work is components for t3 ship production which I have no interest in. was hoping for advanced sleeper mods or something.

anyways my head is splitting from all the stupid stacking warp effects so more latter WAS FUN!!

EDIT:
Originally by: Synderella Icateoux
Heya, Survived with 12% hull and only because they switched targets.
lol ya to my cnr which was barely holding its tank and that was 2 weak bs if i recall

An Anarchyyt
Gallente
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
Posted - 2009.02.19 21:45:00 - [8]
 

Originally by: MotherMoon
this is my biggest fear...

I want my logtiiscs cruiser to be useful. not that it wouldn't be useful, but it will be more useful is super caps can't get in.

and if they can get in, make it rare?


Read what I said, then stop worrying.

Xelios
Minmatar
Broski Enterprises
-Mostly Harmless-
Posted - 2009.02.19 21:50:00 - [9]
 

Edited by: Xelios on 19/02/2009 22:01:39
Edited by: Xelios on 19/02/2009 21:57:32

So, my thoughts. First off our gang was way overkill, we had 29 people in fleet including several capital ships (a Nyx among them). Still some of our battleships were vaporized. I saw a Mael go down in about 30 seconds and even the CNR raven melted under the full aggro of one of the harder spawns. For some perspective I calculated the BS missiles alone must be doing about 4500 damage, and they hit from 100km.

The sleeper frigates were quite a challenge, they seem to have very low sig radius making them hard to hit. I was using heavy missiles and interestingly I was doing about the same damage with precision, fury and normal t1; not much.

All the sleepers spider tanked each other, this wasn't so effective on the BS but very effective on the frigates. My Nighthawk combined with someone's light t2 drones wasn't putting out enough DPS to kill one of these frigates because it was being repped by his cruiser buddies.

I agree with Synderella about the capitals, having a few in your fleet would make these spawns far too easy. Our Moros was tanking a full aggro from one of the harder spawns with no problems. Granted the sleepers change targets to hit the weakest tank (something they did very well I noticed) I think it would still be easy to tank them if a couple capitals were running logistics. Since these sites respawn it wouldn't be difficult, with some patience, to get a few capitals into a wormhole system and farm them.

Can't say for sure if they're balanced right, because our gang was pretty over the top, so once we can get into WH space ourselves we'll give it a shot with some more modest gangs.

Thanks to Oneir for the fun evening Very Happy

Synderella Icateoux
Posted - 2009.02.19 21:55:00 - [10]
 

One thing that just crossed my mind - how do you see whether the Sleeper complex you're about to enter is easy or hard? I think so far you can't. That needs to change, otherwise a lot of smaller/newer/less well equipped adventurer groups may be cashing in on their insurances...

Varnoka
Garoun Investment Bank
Posted - 2009.02.19 21:57:00 - [11]
 

I would like to know the ship types/numbers in this fleet as well as the Sleeper numbers per encounter if possible. Would help those of us reading this understand better when you say things were easy.

If it takes multiple logistic cap ships long with a large/heavy fleet to be feasible to do the hard plexes, I foresee problems in the future. Especially if some T3 production materials/BPCs can only be found in those plexes.

Baihuigau
Gallente
Skull Brigade
Posted - 2009.02.19 21:58:00 - [12]
 

Edited by: Baihuigau on 19/02/2009 21:59:16
From the fight I had today a couple of frigs are hard but not too hard they give you a challenge and you can probably solo them in a bc, the sleeper cruisers are a bit hard but their managable if theres not too many of them, the bses hurt

like hell they really need their dmg toned down a bit more, but overal other than the bses they feel well balanced, only thing is when u warp to a sleeper site the frigs almost instant warp jam you, bit hard getting there finding out that its a site you cant tank and you cant leave not sure how thats going to work out.

Spawn sizes ranged from 2bses, to 2bses 2 cruisers two frigs and the one i tried solo was about 7 frig swarm i held for a while but then again i had 14k of armor.

Xelios
Minmatar
Broski Enterprises
-Mostly Harmless-
Posted - 2009.02.19 22:01:00 - [13]
 

It's hard to say what was in our gang because people kept getting popped and coming back in something else. Overall the gang hovered around 25 people, some of the notable ships I saw:

At least 2 passive tanked Nighthawks
CNR
Moros
Nyx
Couple carriers
Some t3 ships
Some BS that were melted
Basilisk

I'll be uploading a video of the adventure soon.

Ben Thomas
Caldari
Legion of Ascension
SCORN.
Posted - 2009.02.19 22:07:00 - [14]
 

Edited by: Ben Thomas on 19/02/2009 22:09:16
This session was really good fun Smile

Sleeper NPCs seem to be in my opinion fairly well designed so far - with the fleet we were in, we managed to plough though most things pretty well.
I was simply flying an active tanked Drake, and got primaried by the whole spawn once - probably because they spawned right on top of me(?) however after warping out/back, they'd moved onto the next target.

Their "AI" seems to be pretty well thought out, they switch primaries, spider tank, take out ship support, just like real players would - and yes, CCP Oneiromancer said this is what they want it to be like - in effect the NPC version of PvP. There are various other aspects to this that I'm not going to get into.

Soloing in a drake, it takes a fair few minutes to get through a Sleeper BS' armour, however after doing that the structure goes down really easily.

Thanks again Oneiromancer Very Happy

Baihuigau
Gallente
Skull Brigade
Posted - 2009.02.19 22:10:00 - [15]
 

Also so far they might be hard but their fun its definately a well thought out ai system. Yes thanks oneiro for the fun, and also for the rest of your sleeper team you guys are doing a good job.

Viktor Del'Grande
Gallente Forschung und Entwicklungscorp
Posted - 2009.02.19 22:12:00 - [16]
 

First of all .. Thanks to Oneiromancer Very Happy

What i noticed:

  1. The sleeper are really anoyed by ECM. As the respawn appeared and i did not manage to jam all ships, the falcon got primaried. and popped really fast.

  2. They are switching target really fast .. if you anoy them too much from sniping, dishing out too much DPS they fly away. This was noticed by other players which were participating too.

  3. The sleepers should introduce people to PvP like fighting: But their EW is not comparable to normal players. Their warp disruptor range is like 30-35km. Normal T2 disruptor with overload is 28km. If young players should lern from that how PvP works, the ranges from their EW should be the same as normal players use. The sleepers should be affected by all game mechanic rules which are applied to normal players. They should be neutable, webable, scrambleable, dampable, tracking disruptable. They should be affected by these effects like a player, which is targeted by such effects. No torpedos which goes 90km from the NPC and max range from a player torpedo is like 30-35km. No such differences. Everything should be the same. Except the AI Wink

  4. Their damage is not compareable to a ganksetup megathron. It is much much higher. The BSes dish out damage after resist maybe 1.5k until 3k. A 1600mm RT plate is only a buffer for 1-2 hard hits.

  5. Frigates are are haaard ass to beat. They have high resitances, low signatures and move really fast. You need a web and paint to hit them.

  6. Without logistics you stand no chance. You need armor transfer, shieldtransfer and lot of such stuff. You need people which jam the sleepers, to reduce the DPS. You are lucky if the sleepers primary an other ship, not yours. I stayed always aligned with the cursor abouve the warp out button.

  7. The loot from the sleeper is way to big. One item 10 m and one BS drops like 5-8 items. This volume should be reduled. Maybe like normal salvage or like datacores. I'm thinking of "Ancient Coordinates database" and such stuff.

  8. It was fun. It was like "oldstyle fleetfights with much of BSes and support". Before the introduction of titans and before the EC-P8R incident (April 2006). Before the great blobbing begun.



Again: Thanks for the fun Oneiromancer Very Happy

Kiotsu Adler
Posted - 2009.02.19 22:25:00 - [17]
 

Good feeback and a couple of questions:

* Do they snipe and take advantage of range weapons (mwd to hold distance while taklers hold you etc.)?
* Do they have various set ups like long range, short range gankage, nano fits, etc.? And what about fleet compositions?
* Do you think on a 1 on 1 BS vs. BS sleepers are really overpowered? Or in other way: do you think combat wise they are similar to player class (t2 cruiser vs. sleeper cruiser is fair, etc.)?
* Do they jam too (lolsleeper falcon @ 200km), apart of neuting, scrambling, etc.?

Baihuigau
Gallente
Skull Brigade
Posted - 2009.02.19 22:31:00 - [18]
 

Yes:Do they snipe and take advantage of range weapons (mwd to hold distance while taklers hold you etc.)?
Yes it looks like it:* Do they have various set ups like long range, short range gankage, nano fits, etc.? And what about fleet compositions?
Yes 1v1 your bs wont but that doesnt mean its overpowered:* Do you think on a 1 on 1 BS vs. BS sleepers are really overpowered? Or in other way: do you think combat wise they are similar to player class (t2 cruiser vs. sleeper cruiser is fair, etc.)?
Yes they warp jam almost as you exit out of warp in terms of ecm i dont think so.

Wadddi
Caldari
Iron Anvil Industries
Violent Entity
Posted - 2009.02.19 22:52:00 - [19]
 

It was alot of fun to do the wormholes are very nicely set out the ai very good we had alot of fun but now im stuck in wormhole space :P waiting for CCP to slingshot me home.

Baihuigau
Gallente
Skull Brigade
Posted - 2009.02.19 22:56:00 - [20]
 

Waddi pod yourself only way for now,

Turrican
Mercurialis Inc.
RAZOR Alliance
Posted - 2009.02.19 23:16:00 - [21]
 

Confirming I was the Moros in the WH trip.

* Just for clarifiation, I had full aggro in the earlier "easy" escalating encounter and tanked it all. But this was only 4 BS, 5-8 Cruisers and 4 Frigates. Once I got aggro, I never lost it until all the Sleepers were destroyed. I never got into Armour once (half shield) and had no additional shield resists. Later in this fight a Thanatos was shield repping me and it became easy mode.

* Later, in the "hard" encounter when about 10 BS's were spawned, I deliberately obtained aggro from 4 BS and they ripped through my shield very nicely and I had to turn on the Armour Repper. I would have loved to get full aggro and possibly use Siege mode, but as mentioned earlier they were all gank and no tank (with a gang of approx 25, including TWO motherships) and we tore through this spawn. However, the CCP rep did say that we had to get aggro ourselves, so it maybe that the BS were not working as a team?

* My overall impression is it would be pretty tough in non caps. I would like to try again tomorrow, but without any caps present and lots of logistics :)

* Waaaahhhhh, they killed my Ogre 2's :(

Optical Illusion
Minmatar
Rionnag Alba
Northern Coalition.
Posted - 2009.02.19 23:21:00 - [22]
 

i was wondering, do they have bounties?

An Anarchyyt
Gallente
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
Posted - 2009.02.19 23:24:00 - [23]
 

Originally by: Optical Illusion
i was wondering, do they have bounties?


No, to the 50th person to ask this question.

Optical Illusion
Minmatar
Rionnag Alba
Northern Coalition.
Posted - 2009.02.19 23:25:00 - [24]
 

50th? awsome, do i get a special gift as its such a ceremonal number?

Ahz
Posted - 2009.02.19 23:30:00 - [25]
 

Originally by: Synderella Icateoux
You should make it impossible for caps and supercaps to enter WH space...
I wouldn't worry about this. Once you've gone into W space you have no idea where you'll come out again.

That's actually a major challenge for any gang exploring W space. Getting safely back to your home system when you've returned to K space.

Anybody losing their carrier after coming back out of a worm hole into hostile space is unlikely to do the same thing twice.

Marlenus
Ironfleet Towing And Salvage
Posted - 2009.02.19 23:41:00 - [26]
 

Originally by: Viktor Del'Grande
The loot from the sleeper is way to big. One item 10 m and one BS drops like 5-8 items. This volume should be reduled. Maybe like normal salvage or like datacores. I'm thinking of "Ancient Coordinates database" and such stuff.

Sweet! Sounds like heaven for a salvager and combat-hauler pilot. Although tanking the rats long enough to suck up the loot may be a challenge and a half, sigh.

Marlenus
Ironfleet Towing And Salvage
Posted - 2009.02.19 23:44:00 - [27]
 

Originally by: Ahz
Anybody losing their carrier after coming back out of a worm hole into hostile space is unlikely to do the same thing twice.
Finding worm holes big enough to move your carrier out of W-space may be difficult, but I assume you'd get a scout buddy to check the destination before you jump, to avoid that particular problem.

Hlidskjalf
Dynamis New Eden
Cognitive Development
Posted - 2009.02.20 00:00:00 - [28]
 

Was one of the Drakes in the fleet.

Our setup was one that we had worked on, using a mission style setup with a medium remote repper, in a team of three Drakes that had similar fits. Our objective was to use the native huge tanks of the Drakes along with medium reppers to re-inforce each others shields when under attack. Worked very well when one of our drakes came under sustained assault, and we repaired other members of the fleet when needed.

One of the waves had around 6 battleships in. They concentrated fire on solitary ships, popping a Basilisk, a Raven, a Maelstrom, a Phobos very quickly. A Dominix made it out in hull. Due to their distance, ships that burned towards them were quickly picked off. The smaller frigate swarms essentailly acted like fighters, and moved incredibly quickly to pin parts of the fleet while the battleships sniped. Eventually, with the use of fighters and drones, their firepower became devided and the fleet was sustained by logistics support enough for the fleet to work its way through the ships to the battleships.

The Fighters were key to this victory, there is something quite comforting about a giant swarm of them and that the sleeper ships couldn't stop them all. Given the DPS they kick out, I do wonder what a pure subcap fleet can manage, without the logistics and projected firepower of a carrier and its fighters. (Even had a Nyx for some reason have its squads attack me - spent a good 10 minutes warping around the system being chased by over a dozen Einhejer fighters. Thank god for passive tanks...)

Next time we'll try a battleship size spider tank. Should be good fun. :

Aeo IV
Amarr
Xomic OmniCorporation
Posted - 2009.02.20 01:12:00 - [29]
 

Any idea what sort of sensors the Sleepers use?

Eldiora Trade
Posted - 2009.02.20 02:43:00 - [30]
 

First of all, thanks to CCP Oneiromancer for giving me a fun night. Must be hard teleporting all the guys around keeping fleets up ect :)

So feedback regarding the fights I had at the sleepers site:

I was in a t2 equipped Astarte

* Those sleepers eat drones way, way too fast. My primary damage in the Astarte were not drones, but I am specialised also towards the Ishkur, Ishtar, Dominix line as drone boats. We will just get obilerated by sleepers because they kill all drones very fast and then move on. This puts the Drone Boats at a really hard disadvantage. Please at least let us some time to get drones that are shot back into the bay. It was like Drones out.... 10 seconsd later a swarm of frigs tore trough them like paper leaving nothing behind. There was my drone wing in shreds and gone.

*Regarding Blasters: They totally suck against sleepers, any short range weaponary will be at a huge disadvantage. First i need to close in distance with the mwd. Those sleepers hit for full damage at insane ranges and for really good damage So while i have to travel to one sleeper with max speed the sleepers shoot me from 50-60km. Ok once i get there I need a web to stay in range of my blasters. Without the web I could not stay in range or would break orbit with the mwd. They do take evasive maneufers when you get near them and its annoying. They seem to spread out (killed 1 target move 30km to next...)

Please do something for short range weapons. Blasters will be hugely obsolete. And they dont do too well anyways atm.


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