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delor
Posted - 2009.02.18 18:36:00 - [121]
 

Edited by: delor on 18/02/2009 18:39:58
It's been beaten to death, but if you really want to improve the new player experience just start everyone with the entire learning tree. It's a senseless, boring grind.

If you want to make alts less useful- and that's the only real argument I can think for cutting the starting skills- you could probably cut back the initial skill points a little bit to compensate. 400k-ish would be reasonable, 50k is not.

One thing you could do in particular to make alts less immediately useful without impacting the new player experience, is get rid of the career paths and just give all the new plays a simple skill packet that'll cover mining, trading, running L1 missions in a T1 frigate comfortably, and tackling in PvP. That's basically trade 1, mining 1, propulsion jamming 1, and a small array of piloting/fitting/combat skills to let them jump in a frigate of their starting race. Not like a new player can turn a profit on manufacturing and research from the get-go without more experience anyway. Give them enough to dabble in anything, but not enough to be a useful alt from the get-go.

Their career path could then determine what initial training missions they get- transport/buy missions, mining missions, or combat missions. Start them out with those and let them know they can try the other batch of tutorial missions at any time.

Stretchmeat Crotchquake
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
Posted - 2009.02.18 18:37:00 - [122]
 

You want a better experience for newbies? Here:
- Remove Learning skills from the game and integrate them into base stats
- If you're going to lower the skill base, then at least provide the ability to pump weapon/ship skills to 4 during character creation


This doesn't even seem like it was designed to help newbies, it's a thinly-veiled attempt to deal with recycling alts to dodge sec status, and a way to force more subscription time out of people who need to make CEO/market/cyno/research/whatever alts.

Aselus
Amarr
Crimson Right
Posted - 2009.02.18 18:40:00 - [123]
 

amazing *claps hands*

Ki Tarra
Ki Tech Industries
Posted - 2009.02.18 18:41:00 - [124]
 

I find it funny that the New Player Experience is designed by Fear: CCP is out to scare away new players.


But seriously, this sounds like a change for the better.

One suggestion: don't prevent older players from completing the "new player" mission set. It is hard to say when a combat player might want to take up business/mining. Having those tutorial missions available without needing to recreate a character would be great.

UnitedStatesOfAmerica
GoonFleet
GoonSwarm
Posted - 2009.02.18 18:53:00 - [125]
 

Originally by: Stretchmeat Crotchquake
You want a better experience for newbies? Here:
- Remove Learning skills from the game and integrate them into base stats
- If you're going to lower the skill base, then at least provide the ability to pump weapon/ship skills to 4 during character creation


This doesn't even seem like it was designed to help newbies, it's a thinly-veiled attempt to deal with recycling alts to dodge sec status, and a way to force more subscription time out of people who need to make CEO/market/cyno/research/whatever alts.

I would like to play a internet spaceship game with that in it's character creation.

DrNeato
Posted - 2009.02.18 18:55:00 - [126]
 

Switching skill points - good, Removed. Inappropriate.

UnitedStatesOfAmerica
GoonFleet
GoonSwarm
Posted - 2009.02.18 18:57:00 - [127]
 

Originally by: DrNeato
Switching skill points - good, Removed. Inappropriate.

I use to think you were one of the goonish players, but seriously man. Seriously.

Clansworth
Good Rock Materials
Posted - 2009.02.18 18:58:00 - [128]
 

I like the skill changes. Eve is a staggering beast to a newcomer. Even more so now than it was years ago. When the characters start with 800k sp, a majority of them, but the end of the first month, really had no idea what a large number of their skillset was actually FOR. By starting them more basic, and letting them decide what gets learned, thus doing the research, while at the same time speeding it up so the end result a month into the game is effectively the same, will result in more educated players, and less wide-eyed blank stares at the skill chart.

Poluketes
GoonFleet
GoonSwarm
Posted - 2009.02.18 19:14:00 - [129]
 

Originally by: CCP Fear
In our newest build, a player gets about 50K skill points from character creation. This might change, depending on testing. But we will be reducing the 800K quite substantially.


Eve is wonderful because of newbies in tackling frigates who can influence 0.0 battles on day one, during their free trial. If this change goes through, pvp-minded newbies will be stuck in a playpen for almost a month, experience nothing during their trial, be bored as hell, and won't subscribe. If you're trying to end throwaway market/research alts, give new characters the same SP, but with half in learning skills and with no skills at level 5. If you want a cleaner intro page, maybe give new characters 50k SP there, then force them to do all 3 tutorials and give them the other 750k SP as their mission rewards, holding their hands and teaching them about their skills and letting them choose which they want as they gain them. Required missions would be a pain in the ass for old players making alts and new goon recruits, but it would still be better than this. Getting into pvp shouldn't require 30 days of training.

Originally by: CCP Fear
Once a year, you - and everyone else - can take 14 attribute points, and re-arrange them within reason.


Redistributing attributes sounds fantastic and in the long run it would partially make up for the initial loss of the 750k SP. But newbies will never find that out because they'll be bored to death and won't play beyond the free trial. Honestly for a new player, a character that's useful day one and decent day 60 is much better than one who's useless day one, useful day 30, and super amazing day 60.

Please don't neuter the newbies.

Originally by: CCP Fear
As a result, you will be able to create an alt which is more focused and get there quicker than before, as you can decide exactly what skills to train.


Also claiming this benefits old players making alts is a complete joke. This is exactly like ghost-training – you want to kill off rolling research alts with lab op 5, market alts with trade 5/retail 4, and fighterbombing alts with drones 5 so players can't get SP for “free.” And that's fine, it's your game, but come out and say it openly instead of claiming that this is for our benefit. It's not, and it looks pretty sleazy to say so.

Typherin laidai
Amarr
Ars ex Discordia
GoonSwarm
Posted - 2009.02.18 19:17:00 - [130]
 

Originally by: Steve Thomas

ok first off *YOU* just proved how clueless you are. Its obvious *YOU* did not even look into the test server to see what is going on.

the old revamped tutorial awareded ships and skills includnig your races industrial if you went through all of it (in fact you got 3 industrials but that was a glitch, you were only suposed to get 2 if you did both the industry and trade set of tutorials) in the end of the complete tutorial I had over 3m in cash and ships.

Right now Im trying to log in to check to see what they changed based on the feedback they got so far.


First *WHY* do you keep *USING* the asterix to *MARK* points of emphasis?

Secondly, no one is arguing against an increase in starting players cash, so I have no idea why you even brought that up. They are saying that given 50k skillpoints the new player won't have a hell of a lot to do with that 3m in cash and ships until they grind away some time providing a basic framework of skills. A framework that was at least imperfectly provided with the 800k SP characters. And forcing a player to train a myraid of confusing and annoying skills isn't likely to sell them on the game.

Xentara Vispari
Posted - 2009.02.18 19:28:00 - [131]
 

Edited by: Xentara Vispari on 18/02/2009 19:30:53
Edited by: Xentara Vispari on 18/02/2009 19:29:55
I started my char about 6 month ago, choosing an Gallente Industry Engineer after reading the career description. I thought producing and inventing stuff would be a cool. But I completely failed because of several reasons: producing and inventing things requires a lot of skills and a lot of money (most science skills cost 10M - most BPOs also cost a lot). So where are you supposed to get the money to start with? Also public research slots are all full. So I think, the description of this career is not suited for a beginner char. I was quite frustrated, when I discovered this and began skilling towards fighting. After some month of mission running, joining a corp that owns a POS, I can now start doing the stuff that I had initially planned.

I would offer 2 types of templates for each race:
- a fighting oriented template - for mission running or PVP
- a mining/industry oriented template

and offer people a "free form template" to distribute ~800K SP (with some restrictions choosing skills and pushing skills).

So beginners have two templates that will allow some progress and veterans are able to tailor an alt for there needs.

Kyra Felann
Gallente
The Scope
Posted - 2009.02.18 19:31:00 - [132]
 

Edited by: Kyra Felann on 18/02/2009 19:51:41
I agree with making respec for existing player 1 year. I assume you mean that newbies get two "free" ones and then it's one year until they can have another one?

I'm not sure I agree with the changes to new player creation, though. I'd rather pick something that I can start off doing and get a decent number of skill points than start off with practically no skills. A new player can always change their "career" later, but at least they start off being able to do one thing with a basic level of competency. Buying skills could get expensive also.

I also think that trying to figure out which skill to train is going to be more overwhelming when you don't start with a decent amount already. I realize that they're going to have double-speed training up until a certain point, but they still have to figure out which skills they want to train, which can be overwhelming for newbies with all the choices.

I'm sure you know what you're doing, but it just doesn't exactly sound like a change for the better to me. I'm not sure that removing choices at character creation and instead dumping them all on the character as soon as it's created is much better--especially since everything done at character creation will now be changeable except race and name.

However, I think that making race/bloodline selection based more on what the player likes or wants to roleplay instead of attribute min/maxing is a good thing. I picked mine for the former reason, but many pick their for the latter *coughachuracough*.

EDIT: On further consideration, if it's designed so that a new player has roughly the same amount of SP in a given field after going through a "career" mission line as before, I guess that could work. I'm assuming the missions will give skills relating to that career. I'm still thinking it'll take longer for a newbie to be able to do soemthing than a newbie today. Maybe if the missions gave actual skill levels? Or maybe a bonus to learning time for that one skill until the next level is learned?

Also, I'm sure the training queue will help newbies out quite a bit. I know I wasted a lot of skill training time overnight while I was still figuring out what I was doing. That combined with the double training time--that many in this thread seem to forget about--should help newbies catch up fairly fast, but they're probably still behind old-style newbies.

I can see the idea behind this chance, I'm just still kind of wondering if it's the wisest way of going about it. Maybe the next blog will make me feel better about it.

Galston
Posted - 2009.02.18 19:34:00 - [133]
 

Originally by: Clansworth
I like the skill changes. Eve is a staggering beast to a newcomer. Even more so now than it was years ago. When the characters start with 800k sp, a majority of them, but the end of the first month, really had no idea what a large number of their skillset was actually FOR. By starting them more basic, and letting them decide what gets learned, thus doing the research, while at the same time speeding it up so the end result a month into the game is effectively the same, will result in more educated players, and less wide-eyed blank stares at the skill chart.


The way to do that isn't dumping newbies into the game with 50k SP.

It's by separating the initial skill allotment from character creation(and the way starting skills are currently tied to the limited number of bloodline/school choices) and integrating it into a well-made NPE so that when the new character is finished with all the tutorials he has 800k, but 800k in an emphasis that he selected because the NPE gave him a sense of what various skills make available.

Oh, and get rid of learning skills. That's a no-brainer, honestly.

Pure Manergy
Gallente
The Sobani
Aegis Militia
Posted - 2009.02.18 19:47:00 - [134]
 

Quite whining about his reference to sieging a POS. It was an EXAMPLE. What newb needs it? He doesn't even know how to form a gang, much less know that it's the equivalent to a "party".

All in all, this is very good. They're giving us a good thing with once a year. What's with the whining about "every six months"? At least you're getting it right?

Qlanth
Caldari
Merch Industrial
Goonswarm Federation
Posted - 2009.02.18 19:56:00 - [135]
 

Switching skillpoints is a great idea, and it will definetly help people who screwed up character creation the first time around.

Starting with 50k skillpoints is absolutely ridiculous. It makes it so that instead of being able to start the game and actually play they have to wait weeks or a month to be able to do useful things.

It also leaves much more room for more inexperienced players to waste ISK on skillbooks and skillpoints that are not useful to them. Character creation and training is already confusing enough, lowering the amount of guidence a player gets from their own skillsheet is just going to make things worse.

Malloc Memrel
Posted - 2009.02.18 20:06:00 - [136]
 

Part of the reason I left Eve the first time I played it a few years back is that it seemed like I couldn't do anything to start. When the skillpoint bump came in later, I found that with some careful planning I could be instantly useful at something- a well-planned newbie could be ready to tackle or haul or do one of several other things almost right off the bat, and it was nice to come into eve and say "I can do x!" immediately. Dropping the starting skillpoints back down to 50K will be a return to "Well, I'm useless for the first month, better mine some veld in jita with my starting ship" which isn't exactly thrilling gameplay that would encourage subscription.

The skillpoint buff made the game incredibly more accessible for new players just starting out. Dropping that to 1/16th of their effectiveness will just cause newbies to become frustrated and quit.

Von Kleist
Caldari
Perkone
Posted - 2009.02.18 20:14:00 - [137]
 

Just wanted to state that this 50k sp idea is a horrible idea as far as game enjoyment, and a great idea to screw people over. Never stop ccp, at least you always seem to have your best interests in mind. How hard would it be to have a link during character creation to a skill tree with understandable definitions that players could openly pick from the start? The 95% more skillpoints, possibly wasted on even 50% of worthless skills at creation, still highly outweigh the disadvantages of starting the game with no money and no skills or ablity to do anything.

You should just put up a header on creation screen that says, "dont bother playing"

Ki Tarra
Ki Tech Industries
Posted - 2009.02.18 20:19:00 - [138]
 

Edited by: Ki Tarra on 18/02/2009 20:20:46
Originally by: Galston
It's by separating the initial skill allotment from character creation(and the way starting skills are currently tied to the limited number of bloodline/school choices) and integrating it into a well-made NPE so that when the new character is finished with all the tutorials he has 800k, but 800k in an emphasis that he selected because the NPE gave him a sense of what various skills make available.
Now, if we figure that the average new player is going to take a few days to run through each of the tutorial mission sets and that the skill queue removes the problem of training short skills while AFK, add in the double speed training until they reach 1.6 million SP:

I would say that the New players come out ahead with this system, especially since they learn how to use the skills as they train them, and they can pick the ones that they actually want.

They are still getting what basicly amounts to 800k free SP: it comes in the form of double speed learning, instead of a bulk allocation. Now instead of having 500k of that SP tied up in just two level 5 skills, they can spread that around to get a bunch more skills to level 4.

This also gives new players time to understand what the skills do before choosing where to assign their starting skill points.

It is the veterns who are creating disposable alts on the same account as their main that will be done in by this change: now they will actually need to train those alt. Sure it is at an accellerated rate, but that is training time that they could otherwise give to their main.

James Ignis
Minmatar
Killing is my Business
Posted - 2009.02.18 20:20:00 - [139]
 

I have to also say that the learning skill tree is a huge insult to the player. EVERY SKILL SHOULD BE USEFUL - there shouldn't be a month long mandatory "can't do anything useful if you want to be good in the long term" period, which is basically what the learning tree is. The ONLY reason, the ONLY justification for something like that, is contempt for the player. Please, please, please get rid of it.

Zanmaru
Gallente
Broski Enterprises
The Council.
Posted - 2009.02.18 20:22:00 - [140]
 

Reading over the blog, it doesn't explicitly state that new players will have to spend the first few weeks training up skills the old-fashioned way, or even at double-speed (where did that come from anyway?). It simply stated "In our newest build, a player gets about 50K skill points from character creation". FROM CHARACTER CREATION. I kind of assumed new players would be able to choose their skills from a pool or some other method once they had a better idea as to what they wanted to do, similar in concept to noobs getting 2 respecs. I could be wrong of course. We'll just have to wait until part 2.

Clansworth
Good Rock Materials
Posted - 2009.02.18 20:31:00 - [141]
 

Originally by: Poluketes
Eve is wonderful because of newbies in tackling frigates who can influence 0.0 battles on day one, during their free trial. If this change goes through, pvp-minded newbies will be stuck in a playpen for almost a month, experience nothing during their trial, be bored as hell, and won't subscribe. If you're trying to end throwaway market/research alts, give new characters the same SP, but with half in learning skills and with no skills at level 5. If you want a cleaner intro page, maybe give new characters 50k SP there, then force them to do all 3 tutorials and give them the other 750k SP as their mission rewards, holding their hands and teaching them about their skills and letting them choose which they want as they gain them. Required missions would be a pain in the ass for old players making alts and new goon recruits, but it would still be better than this. Getting into pvp shouldn't require 30 days of training.
How much of the current 800k sp a character starts with is actually used to fulfill that tackling role? If someone is able to tailor their skill training in the first few days, I'd wager they could be quite good at any light specialized field, such as tackling, in a very short time, with far fewer than 800k seemingly randomly distributed sp.

Originally by: Galston
The way to do that isn't dumping newbies into the game with 50k SP.

It's by separating the initial skill allotment from character creation(and the way starting skills are currently tied to the limited number of bloodline/school choices) and integrating it into a well-made NPE so that when the new character is finished with all the tutorials he has 800k, but 800k in an emphasis that he selected because the NPE gave him a sense of what various skills make available.


That pretty much is what this sounds like it will become. Remember, the rest of the NPE changes, as for the accellerated training and career training has not been described. And for similar effectiveness, if one is allowed to choose their skills more accurately, you would be as effective with about 400k sp at the end of the tutorial as the current 800k sp, due to that 400k being in the right places.

Ki Tarra
Ki Tech Industries
Posted - 2009.02.18 20:38:00 - [142]
 

Edited by: Ki Tarra on 18/02/2009 20:38:54
Originally by: Zanmaru
training up skills ... at double-speed (where did that come from anyway?).
You're right, they did forget to include that rather important detail in the blog. Shocked

Here is the reference for you:
Quote:
New characters now receive a bonus to skill training speed when under a specific SP level. This is to account for the removal of many of the automatic starter skills. The bonus is temporary and only until the player catches up with "modern" characters (i.e. those that start with 800k skill points today). Namely, the player gets a 100% bonus from creation and until he reaches 1.6 Million Skill Points, regardless of the time that takes. A player is shown his current % bonus to his skill training in the character sheet underneath the total amount of skills and skill points


Combine that with the skill queue (no more needing to switch skills every 10 minutes as a new player Cool), and training up those first few levels won't be too bad at all.

They should be able to train the skills that they really need to level 2/3 within a day or so. Training up to level 3/4 as they figure out what they are doing. Then go on from there to specialize in whatever they want without committing a huge chunk of skill points to unneeded level 5 skills.

Chainsaw Plankton
IDLE GUNS
IDLE EMPIRE
Posted - 2009.02.18 20:44:00 - [143]
 

so Can I get my 512k sp in missile bombardment moved please?

Laughing

Doctero
Aperture Harmonics
K162
Posted - 2009.02.18 20:49:00 - [144]
 

Originally by: Kyra Revan
Edited by: Kyra Revan on 18/02/2009 16:03:07
I have been thinking, why not make a bonus to bounty, a gain of 5% for each point in charisma above 22, so at 23 you gain 5% and 33 you gain 50% extra isk from rats.
This would give you a choise of skills versus isk.
Just an idea to boost charisma




+1, Great idea

Ki Tarra
Ki Tech Industries
Posted - 2009.02.18 20:54:00 - [145]
 

As a side note for those whining about the "need" to train learning skills.

New players only learn about that "need" from older players. Left to their own means they are just fine putting them off for a few months, and won't suffer any real long term harm because of it.

For those creating twinked characters, the combine set of changes makes it easier to get through the "learning" phase than ever before.

Start by pimping your Memory and Intellegence. Use the skill queue to plow through those learning skills along with the skills needed for whatever implants you choose. You can fit all of that and more in before the double speed learning runs out.

Then you can use one of your "free" attribute respecs to put everything over to max out your remaining learning skills.

I will not attempt to argue that the learning skills are a good feature, but they are not really that bad either. Even accepting that the learning skills are a bad feature, I have yet to see a suggested fix that is not worse than the problem.

The last change to the starting skill set made getting your learning skills easier. This one makes it even easier still, if that is how you choose to use the feature available: the choice is yours.

Steve Thomas
Minmatar
Sebiestor Tribe
Posted - 2009.02.18 21:07:00 - [146]
 

Edited by: Steve Thomas on 18/02/2009 21:24:16
Edited by: Steve Thomas on 18/02/2009 21:14:14
Edited by: Steve Thomas on 18/02/2009 21:13:12
Edited by: Steve Thomas on 18/02/2009 21:11:14
Guys let me spell this out for the last time

They are not going to allow anyone to start off with ~800k skillpoints after may 10.

why?

Several reasons

1) they are giveing all of the Existing skills the evil eye and are looking at reduecing the skill requirements on some skills.

for example a higher ranked skill that needs 2 Lower ranked Skills at level 4 may have get one of the reqired skills reduced if not droped all together.

2) on Moduels they are looking at knocking requirments down to one key skill and making any current "redundant" "needed" skills just add a bonus.

3) they are looking at doing away with the oddball skills in the new player starting kits(who seriously uses defender missles?) that were stuck in to make the skills "look" more balanced

4) the base idea is that the tutorial chain will start off with just the skills you need to function,(The base gunery and pilot skills) and as you go through the tutorials it adds skills AND modules as you go through it while explaining what that skill does.(for example one step in the tutorial gives you the skillbook for propulsion jaming AND a webber(ok its suposed to give you both of thoes items, it gives you the weber and weapons, but that was a known bug that they suposedly fixed, havent gotten back to that part ofthe tutorial)

To put it bluntly if you want a given skill to be added to the tutorial series you need to play through the tutorial (they will NOT listen to you untill you do. no I am not kidding the Devs(yes plural) flat out said that they are looking to see who actualy played through the current tutorial COMPLETLY in SISI before they will read what you have to say about it unless you run into an actual bug.) and then send in feedback statment saying why you think each skill that you want added should be added to the tutorial.

And no the current "Anything less than 800SP for new players sucks and is unfair" is a complete non starter with them. the feedbad they got from people who Cancled the accounts in the players first month that they have gotten since they put out the current new player exp, (according to them virtualy everyone who bothered to say why they quit when they cancled the acount in the first month told them that they "Cant figure out what most of the skills are for") outweighs any tempertantrum your pitching now to keep the current system.

they may very well end up with a tutorial that ends up giveing players most of the skill(at level 0/1) that are in the current new player setups. but the last thing they will do is let people out of the NEW NPE will the combined skills of the three career paths.

Maximus Imbecillus
GoonFleet
GoonSwarm
Posted - 2009.02.18 21:21:00 - [147]
 

This is stupid. Don't take away 750k skill points from newbees.

Steve Thomas
Minmatar
Sebiestor Tribe
Posted - 2009.02.18 21:26:00 - [148]
 

Originally by: Maximus Imbecillus
This is stupid. Don't take away 750k skill points from newbees.
sigh

see my above post.

dont think of it as takeing away 750k skillpoints

think of it as not giveing them 2m skillpoints in the new tutorial.


Zzelle
Ultrapolite Socialites
GoonSwarm
Posted - 2009.02.18 21:33:00 - [149]
 

Originally by: Steve Thomas

To put it bluntly if you want a given skill to be added to the tutorial series you need to play through the tutorial (they will NOT listen to you untill you do. no I am not kidding the Devs(yes plural) flat out said that they are looking to see who actualy played through the current tutorial COMPLETLY in SISI before they will read what you have to say about it unless you run into an actual bug.) and then send in feedback statment saying why you think each skill that you want added should be added to the tutorial.



Got a pointer to the "how to setup a client for the test server" information? I can never find it.

Newpiccty
Posted - 2009.02.18 21:37:00 - [150]
 

I was going try to get a few real life buddies to start playing Eve again after the March 10th patch, but after crunching the numbers you are way better off Cost/Time/SP wise with making a character now and training it.

Having speed training for 1.2mil skill points is nothing, my learning skills have 1.47 mil SP in only 3 of them are V. Just playing around with this in EveMon unsure what our 50k is going be, (I assume navagation and frigates). We'll pretty much have to pay a extra month before we can even play Eve.

Don't you want new people to be able to jump in the game and get their feet wet? Make some stupid NPC fleet fight they can join in, and watch big ships blast eachother to hell. Don't cripple them by making us say, "Stay in the station and just queue up these skills. Then log off, you can come out in two weeks."

Don't you guys like have a record of all your annouchments?

Don't you remeber when you guys allow new characters have 800k, you did this to help new players.

Now you're saying let's change it to 50k with fast training for 1.2mil SP(6? I don't care I use 2mil with Evemon), to help the new players?

I'll mail you guys a white board, you can write up all the basic skills on the board and how long to train them to V. Realize how stupid it is to train some of the basic to V. Just give new characters MORE SP. Make them better rounded, or let them have like 30 levels they can pump into skills in whatever fashion they want.

There so many different ways to address this problem.
You could go thru the basic skills and explain what they do and give them like a two week period where they can adjust their skills up and down to see the difference in performance.

You guys tell us this isn't a MMO, it's a premium product just like starbucks coffee but every now and then you do horrible stuff and you just keep rolling with it since that's how you done it in the past. Learning skills were a mistake, 24 hour timer on jump clones were a mistake, Titans was a huge mistake(Remote DD, Wow, seriously?), Nerfing Carriers(Maybe a mistake, arugable), ect.

Anyways, I know this post is horrible. Sorry to all those who read it. I'm just trying to figure out if I'm horrible wrong to tell my buddies they have to start before this patch or if someone can confirm my data on EveMon that a 800k SP character with out 2x training speed is better then a 2x training speed character with 50sp to hit 2mil SP. I'm not sure if missed up. I'm not that great with EveMon.

Sorry CCP, you guys drop the ball on this but the other things look nice and should of been done 4 years ago. Maybe next patch you'll get this right too.


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