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Red 7
Posted - 2009.03.05 21:42:00 - [751]
 

Can one of the devs working on W-Space confirm/deny if the Sol Name on the BM will continue to be populated when the expansion goes live?

It's a handy reference for use in the corp.

Karentaki
Gallente
Oberon Incorporated
Morsus Mihi
Posted - 2009.03.05 21:49:00 - [752]
 

Originally by: Tas Nok
Edited by: Tas Nok on 05/03/2009 20:13:03
Ok it took the better part of an hour to scan this down, but still nothing warpable, I'm at a loss here:

[url=http://i597.photobucket.com/albums/tt54/TasCaern/6probes.jpg]Image[/img]

6 probes all with 100% strength and all probes set to .25au
I really doubt I have 6 actual hits but its in this soup somewhere and with 100% strength its kinda impossible to tell where

Advice please, I've read through, this thread and just never expected this (although it was happening a couple builds ago)

Thx

P.S. yes I know all the probes are inactive in the pic, but seeing the cluster of probes is kinda impossible thru the blue globes


If you haven't cleared your cache recently - try that. I know that I had a similar problem a while ago and clearing my cache fixed it.

OneSock
Crown Industries
Posted - 2009.03.05 21:56:00 - [753]
 

Edited by: OneSock on 05/03/2009 22:01:19
Originally by: Tas Nok
Edited by: Tas Nok on 05/03/2009 20:13:03
Ok it took the better part of an hour to scan this down, but still nothing warpable, I'm at a loss here:

Please visit your user settings to re-enable images.

6 probes all with 100% strength and all probes set to .25au



I've had the same thing with 4 probes. It seems to relate to sig strength and deviation.

First hit a problem with a 4au scan with 4 probes. This was on a weak sig. I got two red hits. Problem being the two red dots were 2au apart so dropping down to 2au scans I lost the sig and got the same issue you found. each of the probes reporting it's own hit and red sphere.

This also happened with another scan at 0.25 range and 4 probes. I had to go back up to 0.5au and add a fith probe, get a better "two spot" result and then go back to 0.25au.

Maybe you needed a 7th probe !

Pet theory:

Your two probes with 0.21x distance are obviously close to max scan range 0.25au. Could it be that deviation places the site outside of the scan range and thus the 6 hits cannot be condensed into 1. I'd try moving those 2 probes to reduce the distance.

Boby Cola
Posted - 2009.03.05 22:02:00 - [754]
 

Wasnt Astrometric Acquisition getting changed to something more useful with the new system?

I mean having a 50% reduction in scan time was great with the old system but 5 second over 10 second scan time is not something worth time into, as it once was.

Greyscale nice work :)

An Anarchyyt
Gallente
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
Posted - 2009.03.05 22:13:00 - [755]
 

Originally by: Boby Cola
Wasnt Astrometric Acquisition getting changed to something more useful with the new system?

I mean having a 50% reduction in scan time was great with the old system but 5 second over 10 second scan time is not something worth time into, as it once was.

Greyscale nice work :)


"Astronmetric Acquisition" was the old name of Astrometric Triangulation. And the skill changed to giving a time bonus. The harder signal acquisition skill is what you are thinking of. And this has been changed to triangulation and now gives the strength bonus.

Draco Argen
Posted - 2009.03.05 22:56:00 - [756]
 

Patch 53552, SISI
Deviation had me scanning for wormholes for over 50 mins before i finally got the blasted thing (and it was an exploration, but i saw it through). Admittedly that time i had no idea you could get 2 signals from one sight, and unless clearly documented is going to confuse the hell out of nublets. Even when i did know that the deviation was. nd that it could make 2 signals it kept me guessing and i still don't have another in a half hour. My skills aren't uber high but i have Asto IV and support skills to min of 2 each. I would consider that sufficient for a nublet to get into probing, and this will drive them straight off. :P Simple triangulation is fun, for us geeks/nerds. Making it really hard will just make scanning a no go except for the hardcore nuts. I'm not flying covops, and will try that + frigate T1 scanning equivalent. But given that i'm meant to be able to strap this thing on my combat ship to allow me to get in and out of wormholes this aint good.
My probes nearly expired twice?!

I found it a pita for sites, i can only imagine what the hell kind of paint a scanning for a ship that might move or leave would be. Though a high skill requirement for something to help with that (Asto V for DS probes) isn't unreasonable for pvp scanning i suppose :P

Previously it was a doddle (which i suppose was the point of the deviation) but not too quick to be silly.
0\ bad move reduce the deviation to something reasonable please. Read elsewhere it can allow deepsafespots as well, which wile cool was no doubt unintended.

Also someone mentioned a work around of using one of your probes at max range to act as the "throw away result". I tried that and it had the unexpected effect of allowing my small group of 3 low range probes to slip off my target and then i'd still get a scan but it would have a large deviation and be outside my 3 small bubbles, handy way of telling when your off target. While an interesting safety net it means i waste 1 probe for a WTF catch-all.
However i think the deviation is just to high for the increment of the probe ranges :P the time is take up closing in with small ranges.

If were going to have deviation can we have a single red line or couple of axis circles through deviated results showing the range of the deviation, that would at least explain it visually straight away.

Otherwise well done fixing the probe UI crashes from yesterday.
The shadowy hint spheres to show various potential sizes is +1 good.
The Blue arrows instead of red are pretty, but easily get bled together with other UI elements +0 for that, but there usable (And i saw someone mention a vast improvement for red/green colour blind, so if it helps them its far from a bad thing for me).
And the increased warp speed is a +1 good.

Getting there, slowly. But this last one ruined my enjoyment of probing.

Wine 1.1.14
Nvidia Driver 180.29
Nvidia 7600
AMD 1.8Ghz

Space Wanderer
Posted - 2009.03.05 23:16:00 - [757]
 

Originally by: Draco Argen
Patch 53552, SISI
Deviation had me scanning for wormholes for over 50 mins before i finally got the blasted thing (and it was an exploration, but i saw it through). Admittedly that time i had no idea you could get 2 signals from one sight, and unless clearly documented is going to confuse the hell out of nublets.


That is because, as you admit, you have no idea on what you were doing. I found easily sites and wormholes in 10 mins each without even using the core probes, only DSP, and that with deviation and the above mentioned bug.

Too often I see people on this thread complaining that they can't find a site the first time they scan, without even bothering to read the instructions in the first page of this thread.

Glad CCP came out with a game mechanic for probing that requires a bit of player skill/experience. It actually seems still a bit too easy, but I think it's acceptable. I suppose the only valid concern is that probing ships in safespots is going to be slower than it used to be.

Sekretarka
Posted - 2009.03.05 23:45:00 - [758]
 

Can anyone tell me pls what does it mean when instead of a point (or two) I get a red ring?

Marlenus
Ironfleet Towing And Salvage
Posted - 2009.03.05 23:47:00 - [759]
 

Originally by: Space Wanderer
From what I read in your post I see you got the timer every two consecutive passages through wormholes. That is what has been observed up to now.
OK, when you put it that way, I think we're in agreement now and my observations are consistent with that. It makes more sense than whatever I was imagining.

Cailais
Amarr
Nasty Pope Holding Corp
Talocan United
Posted - 2009.03.06 00:17:00 - [760]
 

Quick observation on the latest patch. Interface wise the scan / probe system seems t be working really quite well.

However...finding wormholes now is extremely difficult. Through an entire evenings plays (2000 - 0001) I found only 1 K - K WH. I scanned .0, low sec and empire without any further success. Id suggest that acquiring WH signatures should be a bit easier than this if its not to become an exercise in frustration and disappointment.

Ideally a player should be able to say 'right - Im going into W-Space / find a WH - and with a limited amount of effort be able to do so.

C.



Phrixus Zephyr
MEK Enterprises
Posted - 2009.03.06 00:24:00 - [761]
 

Having to use 5 probes with every site, been told this is an issue?

Did have a Ladar site in K-space a few hours ago, 7 probes, 0.25au range, down to 70%, yellow dot. Nomatter where i put the probes, different radial plains, different angles to the hit, couldn't get a higher hit than 92%.

Marlenus
Ironfleet Towing And Salvage
Posted - 2009.03.06 01:10:00 - [762]
 

Some of the differences in the tactical spaces are pretty radical. Jumping from my "dangerous" W-system to my "deadly" W-system, the following stats changed (that I noticed) on my Buzzard:

Cap recharge time: 140.63 sec to 70.41 sec
Shield recharge: 3 hp/s to 7 hp/s
Shields: 660 hp to 1320 hp
Effective HP: 1334 to 1952
Targeting Range: 62.5km to 125km

So, basically, a whole bunch of combat stats suddenly got twice as good. Fun times.

Yahrr
The Tuskers
Posted - 2009.03.06 01:30:00 - [763]
 

I just jumped through a wormhole to some normal 0.0 system far away and spotted some ships on a moon. I guess they are at a pos on TQ, but here they were alone in the dark. Anyway, I tried scanning the ships with the probes instead of my trusty old pirate directional. From 200km away :D
Result: 100% hits, but no warp-to. Also tried with 7 probes at a time, it gives 7 times a 100% result and no warp-to.

I assume that I'm doing something really wrong, but if I'm not and this is actually a bug, lol then please enter it on the feature list of eve instead of on the bug list. Its too big! :D

Amon Fyre
Dying in Dayton
Posted - 2009.03.06 01:34:00 - [764]
 

Originally by: Phrixus Zephyr
Having to use 5 probes with every site, been told this is an issue?

Did have a Ladar site in K-space a few hours ago, 7 probes, 0.25au range, down to 70%, yellow dot. Nomatter where i put the probes, different radial plains, different angles to the hit, couldn't get a higher hit than 92%.


The new deviation causes the sites to jump quite a bit. At least the visual representation seems to. I just tracked down a few mag sites, one was pretty easy to hit. The other took me some time, partly from seeing how much deviation was being visually represented. I had the yellow circle jumping around outside the 0.25au overlapping probe range just as much as inside the probe range. Had to drop a fifth probe to nail down the site to warpable and it turns out to have been just barely inside my probes 0.25 ranges.

I'm sure that if I had been in my covert ops with it's rigs the site would've been easier to find instead of a non-bonused cruiser. While the visual clues are really nice, working from the scan strength on individual probes is going to be much better.

Shadowschild
Posted - 2009.03.06 01:38:00 - [765]
 

THere is nothing wrong with the current system. IF anything, make it harder to find sites. I like the idea of having to train astrometrics V to use the new 'multispectral probes'.

Please dont change the probing system, unless its polished.

Draco Argen
Posted - 2009.03.06 02:28:00 - [766]
 

That is because, as you admit, you have no idea on what you were doing. I found easily sites and wormholes in 10 mins each without even using the core probes, only DSP, and that with deviation and the above mentioned bug.

Too often I see people on this thread complaining that they can't find a site the first time they scan, without even bothering to read the instructions in the first page of this thread.

Glad CCP came out with a game mechanic for probing that requires a bit of player skill/experience. It actually seems still a bit too easy, but I think it's acceptable. I suppose the only valid concern is that probing ships in safe-spots is going to be slower than it used to be.


I appreciate your point, and apologies. I should have been using 4 probes completely not trying with three. Perhaps a helpful pointer rather than a bitter retort would suffice next time.

But it still doesn't cut the mustard. Wormhole scanning is going to have to become equivalent of Stargates when your in Sleeper space, and spending minimum of 15 mins if not a lot longer is not going to be practical. For exploration or complex fine. For pvp ships i've not really fully considered what would be appropriate and will postpone comment for now until I've tried it in anger. But wormholes should be easy to find, relatively so.
I have four probes at minimum range (max accuracy) sat in appropriately different planes, but covering a reasonable area for the deviation, in a cov ops ship. I'm not getting more than 50% strength. So i have no idea what it is and i can't pin it down enough to discern if i should give up, let alone warp to it. Perhaps if anyone can enlighten me in a constructive manner what I'm doing so wrong that ends up in the result I'd much appreciate it.

This is hardly my first attempt. After 4 days of comprehensively testing Apoc on SISI the new scanning was fast becoming a favorite of mine. The introduction of deviation as it stands has taken all the fun out of it for me. I still say less deviation, or another balancing factor perhaps. Not that I'm suggesting deviation isn't a good idea, but it's just a little too harsh for a player of my skills, unless I've got completely the wrong end of the stick.
Responses from other posters seems to imply I'm far from the only one.

Besides DS over core probes? Yes that would make it easier, it doesn't surprise me that the probe requiring Astro lvl V has greater effect, i'd heard others suggest the same. I hope you weren't trying to suggest core probes were specialised for wormholes, as appose to a cut down anomaly only probe, for use by the common or garden player.
Sorry if I sound a little aggressive, you've managed to get my back up. Confused

Phrixus Zephyr
MEK Enterprises
Posted - 2009.03.06 02:58:00 - [767]
 

Edited by: Phrixus Zephyr on 06/03/2009 03:00:18
Does anyone know, and maybe this is a question for the devs. Are w-space systems going to be limited the amount and type of sites they get each day? IE, one mag site and two ladar a day (+ 326873263298 grav)? Or will they randomly spawn different sites at undefined intervals (downtime, once a site is cleared elsewhere, every few hours etc)?

Also i assume w-space systems have their own truesec of a sort, when you find a wormhole it says 'Deadly Unknown' 'Dangerous Unknown' and 'Unknown' and they are noticably different in difficulty. If so are they grouped with other systems of the same trusec which will define what spawns there, NPC difficulty, item valubility?

I'm kind of hoping there will be some overlap and it wont be 'You'll never seen this item in the easiest w-space system' like say minerals in asteroid belts in k-space. I realise an organised NPCing/exploring force is going to control the majority of the highends, but im hoping it wont be 100% like some other money spinners i'll refrain from mentioning.

General Meridus
Minmatar
Posted - 2009.03.06 03:00:00 - [768]
 

No you are not the only one.

Right now I've got 5 probes all hitting with 100% on the same location. There is no warpable point. (And the cov ops ship with skills is not making a difference.)

Marlenus
Ironfleet Towing And Salvage
Posted - 2009.03.06 03:17:00 - [769]
 

Originally by: Draco Argen
This is hardly my first attempt. After 4 days of comprehensively testing Apoc on SISI the new scanning was fast becoming a favorite of mine. The introduction of deviation as it stands has taken all the fun out of it for me. I still say less deviation, or another balancing factor perhaps. Not that I'm suggesting deviation isn't a good idea, but it's just a little too harsh for a player of my skills, unless I've got completely the wrong end of the stick.
I would agree with this up to a point. I think the folks who still say it's too easy are posturing a just a wee bit, because they relish the prospect of being able to work a system that deters folks from climbing up the steep learning curve they've already climbed.

I've climbed part of that curve myself, and I can work with this build, but it's a slow challenge with a lot of mis-steps and false starts. Eventually I get there, and it will get faster. If it goes live like this, I'll buckle down, get better, and make it work, even have fun with it. But I think, to be honest, that it's a little too harsh for the mass appeal and general use CCP has repeatedly stated they are going for.

Thus, I don't think this is the tune that's going to go live. It feels to me like deviation is a little too big, or a little bit too poorly indicated by the interface. I expect we'll see a reduction in the amount of deviation. The other approach would be to have the deviated results displayed more usefully, in some fashion that I'm not smart enough to visualize and propose.

Kiwillian
GoonFleet
GoonSwarm
Posted - 2009.03.06 03:31:00 - [770]
 

I have been playing around with ship probing today and something isn't right.

With 4 probes at 0.5au I was unable to get a result above 50% even on larger ships (a frieghter and transport at a POS).

Adding a 5th probe set to 64au and moved away a bit got me a warpable result on the transport (which was near the freighter) but the other results vanished.

I assume this is not how it is meant to be working? Right? :(

Chucky
HEAVEN'S DEATH DEALER'S
V.I.R.A.L.
Posted - 2009.03.06 03:36:00 - [771]
 

After many hours of frustration (and getting a site to 98.55%) I honestly believe if this is working as intended, not many will enjoy or even succeed at this new scanning.

Maybe I'm missing something(doubtful) Maybe I should back to college for some more years(for a game?) Maybe its my low skill points(80 million) Maybe after 6 years of Eve I'm just brain fried Evil or Very Mad

Kyvon
Gallente
Aliastra
Posted - 2009.03.06 04:59:00 - [772]
 

i just got my first wh locked down...
i read the trick to most all probes to either under or above the spot works...
i had 100% but couldnt warp till i did that. might help some of you

Hoshi
Hedron Industries
Red Dwarf Racketeering Division
Posted - 2009.03.06 06:34:00 - [773]
 

Originally by: Phrixus Zephyr
Edited by: Phrixus Zephyr on 06/03/2009 03:00:18
Does anyone know, and maybe this is a question for the devs. Are w-space systems going to be limited the amount and type of sites they get each day? IE, one mag site and two ladar a day (+ 326873263298 grav)? Or will they randomly spawn different sites at undefined intervals (downtime, once a site is cleared elsewhere, every few hours etc)?


If site spawning is anything like on TQ (which I assume it is, I see no reason they would change it), then there is a fixed number of each site and every time you finish a site and and it despawns that specific site will immediately (as in within minutes) spawn again somewhere else in wormhole space.

Mes Ren
No Trademark
Posted - 2009.03.06 07:52:00 - [774]
 

Originally by: Kiwillian
I have been playing around with ship probing today and something isn't right.

With 4 probes at 0.5au I was unable to get a result above 50% even on larger ships (a frieghter and transport at a POS).

Adding a 5th probe set to 64au and moved away a bit got me a warpable result on the transport (which was near the freighter) but the other results vanished.

I assume this is not how it is meant to be working? Right? :(


I believe they changed the system. I have been using 6 probes (1 above, 1 below, 1 on each side). This completely eliminated my 50% issue. Incidently, I discovered this on Cosmic Signatures

Neddy Fox
Gallente
FireStar Inc
Curatores Veritatis Alliance
Posted - 2009.03.06 08:56:00 - [775]
 

Edited by: Neddy Fox on 06/03/2009 08:56:07
You have to get your probes REALLY close.. 0.16 AU away just won't cut it.

The problem is (I can post a screenshot) that getting that close makes it almost impossble to move your probes correctly, since you can't zoom enough.

The result ( a red ring) was ONE PIXEL, and just invisible due to 4 probes being on top of it. I ended up moving one probe at a time, ONE PIXEL at a time, getting them all within 65.000 km (which is rediculous close) before I had a hit.

PLEASE CCP, let us zoom in MORE, so at least we can see what we do...

In the end, I found the WH, but it was very tough. I just don't use 4 probes anymore for the first part, I just move one probe in 3 axes until it's really, really close, and THEN start pinning down the site with 4 probes. I just don't get ANY results with 1 AU range and 4 probes (no rings, red dots or w/e). Only getting 10 times closer then 0.10 AU I'm starting to get results.

If it stays this way, we'll have much of W-space for ourselves :)

Brixer
Dai Dai Hai
Posted - 2009.03.06 09:29:00 - [776]
 

Edited by: Brixer on 06/03/2009 09:43:15
Originally by: Hoshi
Originally by: Phrixus Zephyr
Edited by: Phrixus Zephyr on 06/03/2009 03:00:18
Does anyone know, and maybe this is a question for the...


If site spawning is anything like on TQ (which I assume it is, I see no reason they would change it), then there is a fixed number of each site and every time you finish a site and and it despawns that specific site will immediately (as in within minutes) spawn again somewhere else in wormhole space.


This is not how TQ works at the moment. Some sites can stay for hours after they are done. Some even survive a couple of DTs.

And CCP:
I find the challenge of pinpointing a site be be at the 'right' level.
I do have probing skills @ 3-4, cov-ops 4 + alle the cool Poteque implants, and charted 2 unknown systems.. About 40 sigs? in 6 hours.
That should give an average of about 9 minutes a site. Prospecting is a profession in EvE, if you want to do it well, learn it, both eve-skill wise and by trial and error.


Space Wanderer
Posted - 2009.03.06 10:04:00 - [777]
 

Originally by: Draco Argen
I appreciate your point, and apologies. I should have been using 4 probes completely not trying with three. Perhaps a helpful pointer rather than a bitter retort would suffice next time.


Are you seriously asking for a pointer to the first page of a thread you are replying to? ugh

Originally by: Draco Argen
But it still doesn't cut the mustard. Wormhole scanning is going to have to become equivalent of Stargates when your in Sleeper space,


Sorry, but no. As much as you would like it, this is NOT the current game design, as you can read in many of the devs posts/blogs. A wormhole collapsing behind you doesn't mean you just have to warp to another stargate. It means you are STRANDED. I don't think that asking people to dedicate 15 minutes to get out of a (not so) desert island is too much.

Originally by: Draco Argen
Perhaps if anyone can enlighten me in a constructive manner what I'm doing so wrong that ends up in the result I'd much appreciate it.


Ok, so maybe posting on the tone "What am I doing wrong?", instead of "deviation is wrong" would have been a much better approach. Now, about your question: Without some screenshots, and without knowing your skills it is difficult to understand what is going on. However I have a couple of ideas:

1) If you are getting a sig str of 50% you already know a great deal about the site. If it is not an "Unknown" it is not a wormhole, so ignore it. Also, every unknown sig i found in wspace up to now is a wh.

2) If with four probes you get two different dots at 50% it probably is the new bug at work. (the bug described in the posts just a little before yours). Or possibly only three of the probes are hitting the site (you can verify that by scanning with the four probes one at a time). Just to be on the safe side throw in a couple probes more around the signatures.

3) If you are getting only a single signal at 50%, you either have awful scanning skills, or each of your four probes are pretty far from the site, or again the above mentioned bug is creating troubles. So drop some probes more to take care of the bug, and if problem is still there, try to manually get closer to site with a single probe following the increase or decrease of sig str. That is slow though, so it's only your last resort.

Originally by: Draco Argen
This is hardly my first attempt. After 4 days of comprehensively testing Apoc on SISI the new scanning was fast becoming a favorite of mine.


Oh, i can see that. After all, the new system without deviation requires about one min to find almost everything.

Originally by: Draco Argen
Responses from other posters seems to imply I'm far from the only one.


Yes, I can see that. I can also see that most of those replies, by their own words, share with you also your knowledge of the system.

Originally by: Draco Argen
Besides DS over core probes? Yes that would make it easier, it doesn't surprise me that the probe requiring Astro lvl V has greater effect, i'd heard others suggest the same. I hope you weren't trying to suggest core probes were specialised for wormholes, as appose to a cut down anomaly only probe, for use by the common or garden player.


??? Since when would DSP be better than core? I was saying just the opposite. DSP are a _handicap_ when trying to find sites and wh, since core probes are twice as effective. What I was telling you is that despite the deviation, despite the current probe bug, and despite the handicap given by the DSP, I still managed to find whatever i needed in 10 mins. Actually just yesterday I have been able to find two exit wormholes (one in highsec) in only 15 minutes total, despite them being in the midst of about 15 different sigs. If you use a core launcher (thus you can't use DSP or combat) it might take you 2/3 mins more because it's a bit more difficult to survey the system.

Deviation is fine. A bit too easy, actually, but there are math reasons why it can't be made more difficult.

Space Wanderer
Posted - 2009.03.06 10:15:00 - [778]
 

Edited by: Space Wanderer on 06/03/2009 10:52:34
Edited by: Space Wanderer on 06/03/2009 10:15:54
Originally by: Marlenus
I expect we'll see a reduction in the amount of deviation. The other approach would be to have the deviated results displayed more usefully, in some fashion that I'm not smart enough to visualize and propose.


Waht makes the system difficult to master is probably the interface, because as you point out, when the system is mastered it's fairly fast to scan stuff. Incredibly faster than the previous system, let me add. It wouldn't be that hard to improve the interface, all it takes is to draw spheres of "uncertainty" around the deviated results (won't work very well with 1 probe results though, but it still might), possibly turned on or off on the will of the user. At least this is how I would design the iterface of the scan system. Not likely it will make in the game by M10, but I think this is where we will be going.

Zzelle
Ultrapolite Socialites
GoonSwarm
Posted - 2009.03.06 11:10:00 - [779]
 

Started playing with this tonight. I'm going to have to reread some of this thread and fiddle with things some more, I guess.

One immediate piece of feedback is that I find it very hard to adjust the probe positions relative to each other or points in space. Once I get 3 or so overlapping, it really gets hard to tell things apart. Different colors for different probes would maybe be nice -- all the glowy wireframe beachballs start blurring together for me.

Aylara
Posted - 2009.03.06 11:31:00 - [780]
 

Humm, as it is right now implemented, the scanning deviation is a little bit too much... Considering the time spent when scanning, right now, there's no difference between TQ and Singularity, and onestly, i prefer to do something elese when scanning (TQ), rather then looking at some dots for 15 - 30 min (SI). Things are not fun anymore on Singularity.

I love the new scanning system, but please do some adjustments on deviation.


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