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CCP Fallout

Posted - 2009.02.15 16:14:00 - [1]
 

Now that you know all about Tech 3 ships and the new fitting screen, it's time to learn how to actually build the things. CCP Chronotis' new blog does just that!

MuffinsRevenger
Kenny Starfighter Appreciation Club
Posted - 2009.02.15 16:15:00 - [2]
 

Edited by: MuffinsRevenger on 15/02/2009 16:15:37
Le First!!

Also, will the arrays and silos require certin sec status, or can you do them in say, 0.5 space?

Steve Thomas
Minmatar
Sebiestor Tribe
Posted - 2009.02.15 16:19:00 - [3]
 

Quote:
Ancient relics are found in wormhole space where you need to reverse engineer them in a research job at an experimental laboratory starbase structure or the Caldari research outpost.
OK so we HAVE to set up poses in Wspace then just to do this or was this poorly worded?

CCP Dionysus

Posted - 2009.02.15 16:23:00 - [4]
 

Originally by: Steve Thomas
Quote:
Ancient relics are found in wormhole space where you need to reverse engineer them in a research job at an experimental laboratory starbase structure or the Caldari research outpost.
OK so we HAVE to set up poses in Wspace then just to do this or was this poorly worded?


a) Ancient relics are found in wormhole space
b) Ancient relics need to be reverse engineered in experimental labs and caldari outposts

The location of those labs/outposts is not important

Niara Takeva
Posted - 2009.02.15 16:25:00 - [5]
 

Edited by: Niara Takeva on 15/02/2009 16:26:31
Edited by: Niara Takeva on 15/02/2009 16:25:38
Originally by: Steve Thomas
Quote:
Ancient relics are found in wormhole space where you need to reverse engineer them in a research job at an experimental laboratory starbase structure or the Caldari research outpost.
OK so we HAVE to set up poses in Wspace then just to do this or was this poorly worded?


its clearly described, you need a caldari outpost or the pos-module "experimental lab", no word about that the reverse engineering has to be done in W-Space



to the Dev-Blog:
please, make the whole thing worth the work. Let the NPCs drop enough, so that profits go up and T3 prices go down, if not, I doubt that Tech3 will be useful then.

Janus Ovellian
Minmatar
Firebird Squadron
Terra-Incognita
Posted - 2009.02.15 16:26:00 - [6]
 

Edited by: Janus Ovellian on 15/02/2009 16:26:19
Looks good. Now we just need to be able to get to w-space to be able to test the process :P

Caiman Graystock
Caldari
Cornelius Starship and Computer Design
Posted - 2009.02.15 16:31:00 - [7]
 

Devblog on a sunday. Epic.

Dr Resheph
Amarr
YOU ARE NOW READING THIS LOUDLY
Posted - 2009.02.15 16:31:00 - [8]
 

Edited by: Dr Resheph on 15/02/2009 16:32:32
It sounds like you guys couldn't do anything interesting, mechanics-wise, so you threw together a mix of salvaging, gas mining and standard npc whacking. Tech 3 is booster and rig production combined.

And while it sounds complex, you've made it so there's no limited resource to compete over. The rewards are always going to be proportional to the time spent grinding, and distributed evenly by the number of participants. More participants? More NPCs farmed. Tech 3 margins are guaranteed to crash under this system because the price is a combination of fixed costs, raw resource value and manpower. Which is going to devalue standard NPCing considerably.

This entire Tech level is a sad extension of what we already have, both in combat and in industry.

iudex
Posted - 2009.02.15 16:35:00 - [9]
 

Ok this sounds nice, but will there be Tech 3 battleship hulls as well ? I don't like small ships, my ego doesn't fit in a ship smaller than a battlecruiser.
Any chance there will be some big Tech 3 stuff in future ?

Treelox
Posted - 2009.02.15 16:43:00 - [10]
 

I hope that CCP will take this opportunity to remove some isk from the game, by making those skillbooks and new POS modules that are availble from the NPC market, expensive. Not in the Billions, but definetly in the 100s of millions each.


Otherwise what was in the blog looks intresting, and I look forward to see further details as we near M10.

Akor Flandres
Posted - 2009.02.15 16:43:00 - [11]
 

Originally by: Dr Resheph
Edited by: Dr Resheph on 15/02/2009 16:32:32
It sounds like you guys couldn't do anything interesting, mechanics-wise, so you threw together a mix of salvaging, gas mining and standard npc whacking. Tech 3 is booster and rig production combined.

And while it sounds complex, you've made it so there's no limited resource to compete over. The rewards are always going to be proportional to the time spent grinding, and distributed evenly by the number of participants. More participants? More NPCs farmed. Tech 3 margins are guaranteed to crash under this system because the price is a combination of fixed costs, raw resource value and manpower. Which is going to devalue standard NPCing considerably.

This entire Tech level is a sad extension of what we already have, both in combat and in industry.

What would you have done differently, genius?

Chribba
Otherworld Enterprises
Otherworld Empire
Posted - 2009.02.15 16:48:00 - [12]
 

Industrial looooooove.

Pattern Clarc
Aperture Harmonics
K162
Posted - 2009.02.15 16:53:00 - [13]
 

Are the ore minerals and gas required to produce polymeres unique to w-space?

Aydjile
Amarr
The xDEATHx Squadron
Legion of xXDEATHXx
Posted - 2009.02.15 17:00:00 - [14]
 

can you please explain why they called "strategic" and not "tactical"?

here wiki -

Military tactics (Greek: Taktikē, the art of organizing an army) are the techniques for using weapons or military units in combination for engaging and defeating an enemy in battle. Changes in philosophy and technology over time have been reflected in changes to military tactics.


and here too -

strategy is a plan of action designed to achieve a particular goal.

Strategy is profoundly different from tactics. In military terms, tactics is concerned with the conduct of an engagement while strategy is concerned with how different engagements are linked. In other words, how a battle is fought is a matter of tactics: whether it should be fought at all is a matter of strategy.

Strategy is relevant to many areas of life, from getting the right date for the school disco to running a business. For example, the goal of a company may be to increase profits: the strategy chosen might be to undertake an advertising campaign; invest in a new computer system; or adjust pricing.




Felysta Sandorn
Celestial Apocalypse
Posted - 2009.02.15 17:01:00 - [15]
 

So you need Sleeper Salvage to create these things... Fair enough... But what will the Sleepers actually drop that is unique to the game? I can't imagine a Sleeper NPC that's not seen New Eden in hundreds of millenia dropping a Cruise Missile Launcher I and 1000 Phalanx Rockets...?

/me dons the roleplay hat

Can we have some new named items in game? Sleeper items? Possibly a new range of faction weaponry? Say you kill a Sleeper BS, you get a 'Sleeper Cruise Missile Launcher' which is that little bit better than an Arbalest...? Or going the faction route, it's a chance to introduce faction items that currently don't exist in the game! Such as faction Mining Lasers or faction Drones ('Sleeper Medium Drone'? EM and Explosive damage drones that are as fast as Valkyries and as hard hitting as Hammerheads with the hitpoints of Acolytes?)...

Think about it...

:)

Karrade Krise
Posted - 2009.02.15 17:02:00 - [16]
 

Originally by: Dr Resheph
Edited by: Dr Resheph on 15/02/2009 16:32:32
It sounds like you guys couldn't do anything interesting, mechanics-wise, so you threw together a mix of salvaging, gas mining and standard npc whacking. Tech 3 is booster and rig production combined.

And while it sounds complex, you've made it so there's no limited resource to compete over. The rewards are always going to be proportional to the time spent grinding, and distributed evenly by the number of participants. More participants? More NPCs farmed. Tech 3 margins are guaranteed to crash under this system because the price is a combination of fixed costs, raw resource value and manpower. Which is going to devalue standard NPCing considerably.

This entire Tech level is a sad extension of what we already have, both in combat and in industry.


Arrogance overload! Abandon ship!

Gnulpie
Minmatar
Miner Tech
Posted - 2009.02.15 17:03:00 - [17]
 

Further explanations (based on the test server)

At the moment the construction of tech 3 ships involved gas harvesting in wormhole space.

There are (at current design which might change!) 9 different types of gas, some more common and more used in the production steps than others. These 9 gas types can be grouped into 3 groups.

These are the gas types:

1) C50, C60, C70
2) C28, C72, C84
3) C32, C320, C540

There exist 16 different reactions which need between one and two types of gas as well as always some minerals. The gas is then reacted into polymers.

As example look at the Nanotori Polymers reaction: this reaction needs 250 units of C50, 50 units of C84 and 20 megacyte to create 20 Nanotori Polymers.

As said, there are 16 different reactions in total at the moment and these reactions can be run only at a pos in 0.3 security space or below at the moment.

The remaining part of the assembling is quite straight forward. Assemble the necessary components from the different polymers and ancient sleeper stuff. Then build from these components the subsystems and the hull.

Gas reactions can be only found at wormhole space sites. Components blueprints can also only be found at profession sites. Subsystem and hull blueprints needs to be created by reverse engineering.


Comments

I like it!

This is a highly complex manufacturing chain. Quite interesting, I just hope it won't drive prices to insane levels. I like it.

I hope you keep the many different types of gas so that people are really encouraged to trade with the different types of gas.

The possible different results from reverse engineering sound very promising. The boolean success/failure will be past with reverse engineering then. Great idea!


Questions

Gas harversters. It was hinted that you will seed a gas harvester bpo. Can you please comment about that? Please don't seed bpo! It would be much much better if you increase the drop rate of harvesters or if you put harvester bpc into exploration sites.

Reverse engineering interfaces, where will we get them from? Will they be seeded in wormhole space sites or will there be blueprint copies and we need to build them from sleeper materials?


Looks so far fine, though maybe the t3 ships might get a tad bit expensive depending on all the numbers though.

Kalib Stark
Sebiestor Tribe
Posted - 2009.02.15 17:11:00 - [18]
 

Edited by: Kalib Stark on 15/02/2009 17:19:22
Edited by: Kalib Stark on 15/02/2009 17:15:01
I love POS system, best part of the game ever! And not just me, POS management is why people like to play EVE, all new features should be centered around POS!!!! Go POS!!! Go POS!!

New lab? New assembly lines? New silo?

Only thing that could make it better is More Grinding!!!! Rolling Eyes

oooh, and hauling, more hauling!!! LOTS more hauling!!!!

I want to come out of wormhole space 31 jumps from my POS!!!! EVERY TIME!!!! Oh please, please,....

Armoured C
Gallente
Noir.
Noir. Mercenary Group
Posted - 2009.02.15 17:13:00 - [19]
 

c-c-c-c-c-combo braker

is wormholes space actually open in sis now and first page

keepiru
Omega Fleet Enterprises
Executive Outcomes
Posted - 2009.02.15 17:20:00 - [20]
 

500m-isk cruisers? I'll take 5 o/

An Anarchyyt
Gallente
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
Posted - 2009.02.15 17:25:00 - [21]
 

Originally by: Aydjile
can you please explain why they called "strategic" and not "tactical"?

here wiki -

Military tactics (Greek: Taktikē, the art of organizing an army) are the techniques for using weapons or military units in combination for engaging and defeating an enemy in battle. Changes in philosophy and technology over time have been reflected in changes to military tactics.


and here too -

strategy is a plan of action designed to achieve a particular goal.

Strategy is profoundly different from tactics. In military terms, tactics is concerned with the conduct of an engagement while strategy is concerned with how different engagements are linked. In other words, how a battle is fought is a matter of tactics: whether it should be fought at all is a matter of strategy.

Strategy is relevant to many areas of life, from getting the right date for the school disco to running a business. For example, the goal of a company may be to increase profits: the strategy chosen might be to undertake an advertising campaign; invest in a new computer system; or adjust pricing.




Perhaps we should just call them Uselessly Semantic Cruisers.

Braaage
Ministry of Craft
Posted - 2009.02.15 17:31:00 - [22]
 

I take it the new reactor will be like the current ones and only be anchorable in 0.3 and below?

Gnulpie
Minmatar
Miner Tech
Posted - 2009.02.15 17:31:00 - [23]
 

Originally by: Kalib Stark
I want to come out of wormhole space 31 jumps from my POS!!!! EVERY TIME!!!! Oh please, please,....



Then buy the polymers from the market? Razz

Or just setup your pos in wormspace for a while. Did you have a look at the numbers? Do you know how much is necessary? Maybe you only need a few days reacting gas to have enough polymers ready for many tech3 subsystems/hulls. Maybe you can get filthy rich from these polymers if you do the reaction at a pos in wormspace - no risk, no reward.

I see many great opportunities for those who want to risk something. For those who whine how complicated and difficult everything is, well, they won't get any share from this new big cake. And that is how it should be.

Questions

How rare will these gas sites be? And how much gas will be in there? Will it be random amount? Fixed amount? Will have every system some gas clouds? Will there be tough npc resistance at those gas clouds? Do we need to scan those clouds out with the probes or will they be visible on overview like roid belts?

Manfred Rickenbocker
Pan Galactic Gargle Blasters
Important Internet Spaceship League
Posted - 2009.02.15 17:41:00 - [24]
 

Hooray for more information! Thanks CCP!

Tsabrock
Gallente
Circle of Friends
Posted - 2009.02.15 17:51:00 - [25]
 

Edited by: Tsabrock on 15/02/2009 17:57:04
My biggest question that was not answered is what Security Level will all of these new structures be able to be anchored in? Traditionally, reactors have only been deployable in low-sec space, but since all of the equipment necessary for Tech III are new facilities, does this mean that they will be usable in high-sec space?

Considering the fact that a POS or Outpost is necessary for full T3 construction, I see no reason to limit the new POS structures to low-sec only. If T3 is made too difficult to produce, nobody will be willing to actually fly-around in a new, shiny T3 ship - it'll cost too much and be too difficult to produce.

Hence you end-up with new content that nobody will use. A good example of this are the the special 'faction' drones that became available when the drone regions were released back a while ago. They're rarely used because of their expense and rarity.

keepiru
Omega Fleet Enterprises
Executive Outcomes
Posted - 2009.02.15 17:58:00 - [26]
 

Killing sleepers must provide more isk/hr than killing normal NPCs, including bounty, salvage and modules. If income goes below people will stop doing it until its worth the extra hassle again.

On top of this, the stuff that must be acquired from W-Space exploration has to be worth pretty hefty piles of isk, or people will not be fitting those midslot modules.

Mining fullerene gases must worth more isk/hr than mining ABCs. These NPCs are Uber, bringing an alt in a domi to tank the belt ain't gonna cut it. If at any point they don't risk/reward and supply:demand comes into play again.

Now, take all of that, add in markup for the reaction/component makers, markup for the reverse engineers, markup for the assemblers.

All the above determines the floor for T3 prices. Demand will drive them higher.

For example, if it takes 1 hour of hulk-mining fullerenes, and one hour of sleeper ratting to get enough to build a T3 cruiser, you're looking at a floor of about 100m isk.

As I said, I welcome our new 500-million-isk cruiser overlords.

Gnulpie
Minmatar
Miner Tech
Posted - 2009.02.15 17:59:00 - [27]
 

Originally by: Tsabrock
My biggest question that was not answered is what Security Level will all of these new structures be able to be anchored in? Traditionally, reactors have only been deployable in low-sec space, but since all of the equipment necessary for Tech III are new facilities, does this mean that they will be usable in high-sec space?


In some other thread it was stated that those reactors cannot be anchored in high sec, same like the known moon-material reactors.

Kalib Stark
Sebiestor Tribe
Posted - 2009.02.15 18:03:00 - [28]
 

Edited by: Kalib Stark on 15/02/2009 18:18:17

Originally by: Gnulpie
Originally by: Kalib Stark
I want to come out of wormhole space 31 jumps from my POS!!!! EVERY TIME!!!! Oh please, please,....



Then buy the polymers from the market? Razz

Or just setup your pos in wormspace for a while. Did you have a look at the numbers? Do you know how much is necessary? Maybe you only need a few days reacting gas to have enough polymers ready for many tech3 subsystems/hulls. Maybe you can get filthy rich from these polymers if you do the reaction at a pos in wormspace - no risk, no reward.


That is why CCP will put all gas types needed in one system for you!!! so you can bring a POS and get rich! But even if you believe this, you would still come out 31 jumps from your K-POS, only with now with polymers [and a cargo hold full of POS/silo/reactor] not simply gas to haul for next stage of production!

Hauling is best part of POS mechanic, only thing it lacked was a random starting point! But now it is truly complete!!!!

CCP Dropbear

Posted - 2009.02.15 18:23:00 - [29]
 

Thought this may help people wrap their heads around the process.

Diagram of Tech III Production

Haniblecter Teg
F.R.E.E. Explorer
The Initiative.
Posted - 2009.02.15 18:31:00 - [30]
 

Edited by: Haniblecter Teg on 15/02/2009 18:31:48
I love teh complexity because it puts a doorstop in any one organization's ability to control every step of the t3 market. The addition of chance based for discovering the components from drops or relics from profession sites is a nice step.


Quote:

It sounds like you guys couldn't do anything interesting, mechanics-wise, so you threw together a mix of salvaging, gas mining and standard npc whacking. Tech 3 is booster and rig production combined.

And while it sounds complex, you've made it so there's no limited resource to compete over. The rewards are always going to be proportional to the time spent grinding, and distributed evenly by the number of participants. More participants? More NPCs farmed. Tech 3 margins are guaranteed to crash under this system because the price is a combination of fixed costs, raw resource value and manpower. Which is going to devalue standard NPCing considerably.

This entire Tech level is a sad extension of what we already have, both in combat and in industry.



As to this loser, eat it! This gives more substance to the "professions" (archeologyn hacker), gives more challenge and substance to ratters, and requires huuge logistical constraints that'll make the production of a single cruiser all the more unique, and interesting.


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