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H Zebra
Zebra Corp
Posted - 2009.02.17 12:45:00 - [181]
 

can you please answer my question??? will we get the option to use teh old fitting screen? or are we stuck with the new one?

CCP Fendahl

Posted - 2009.02.17 13:42:00 - [182]
 

Originally by: H Zebra
can you please answer my question??? will we get the option to use teh old fitting screen? or are we stuck with the new one?
Already did...

Originally by: fendahl
Originally by: Vir Hellnami
Is there any way to have a version that would not show the [...] view of my ship in the docks? Could this be made as toggle able, since UI-space is valuable when fitting a ship
It's certainly possible, though it's not currently planned for the expansion. If it's still something a lot of you guys want after we have worked out the new fitting screen, it's certainly something we would look into. We want more awesome, not less! Very Happy


H Zebra
Zebra Corp
Posted - 2009.02.17 14:02:00 - [183]
 

Edited by: H Zebra on 17/02/2009 14:05:48
Originally by: CCP Fendahl
Originally by: H Zebra
can you please answer my question??? will we get the option to use teh old fitting screen? or are we stuck with the new one?
Already did...






im sorry, just dont see a yes or a no answer from you about are we going to get teh option to use the old window?

if you could point it out, id be greatful
thanks
zeb

Harisdrop
Gallente
Vindicate and Deliverance
Posted - 2009.02.17 15:57:00 - [184]
 

I think new is better than old. CCP rocks....

riverini
Gallente
Reliables Inc
BricK sQuAD.
Posted - 2009.02.17 16:26:00 - [185]
 

hey Dev, just say no to him so we can haz another quitting riot... ugh... idk who could actually cares for the so called purists in a game that haz always characterized itself for it's constant innovation and rampant evolution.

i actually like any changes to the UI because i know that they have been made after a thoughtful study, design process and usability trials, a huge difference from most of the ppl complaining here that havent even used the new fitting and are already whining instead of at least trying to make constructive critics that like some have posted in this thread.

Suggestions:
http://www.riverini.com/fitting_screenshot.jpg

url:
http://www.riverini.com/fitting_screenshot.jpg

I'll put 3 buttons besides the fittings "rings" (#1) to rotate when clicked and put the selected slot type as nearest as possible to the item box (less mouse travel)

(#2) shows the selected slot, and (#3) shows that the only thing that would move is the inner part of the ring.

This also help to keep the naming of the modules (highs, meds and lows) which make it easier for new players to get used to the game's slang.

I have one little suggestion i would have liked to see, the ring works fine, but i believe that u should try to put the ship across the ring (that would point the need to do the ring using 3d vectors instead of 2d sprites) (#4) this would also look great when fitting ouside station. I'll limit the ship's view to the front when fitting with some small let's say 15 to 20 degree of liberty to rotate.

Dont get me wrong the screen looks great! but there is still some margin to perfect it!



Khanid Goo
Posted - 2009.02.17 16:28:00 - [186]
 

Originally by: Henry Loenwind
What about this design:

fitting1.jpg

(Yes, it's drawn without skill, incomplete, and out of proportion---but the idea should be clear.)


Far to user-friendly

Shadyan
Caldari
Caldari Provisions
Posted - 2009.02.17 16:34:00 - [187]
 

I think that fitting screen looks awesome, and the options to save no a personal AND corp level of the fittings are simply genious.....


H Zebra
Zebra Corp
Posted - 2009.02.17 16:55:00 - [188]
 

Originally by: riverini
hey Dev, just say no to him so we can haz another quitting riot... ugh... idk who could actually cares for the so called purists in a game that haz always characterized itself for it's constant innovation and rampant evolution.







LOL i just would like a straight answer to a realy straight forward question. no soon no later no maybe, just yes or no. why is that so much to ask for?

riverini
Gallente
Reliables Inc
BricK sQuAD.
Posted - 2009.02.17 17:11:00 - [189]
 

Originally by: H Zebra
Originally by: riverini
hey Dev, just say no to him so we can haz another quitting riot... ugh... idk who could actually cares for the so called purists in a game that haz always characterized itself for it's constant innovation and rampant evolution.




LOL i just would like a straight answer to a realy straight forward question. no soon no later no maybe, just yes or no. why is that so much to ask for?



Lol man u know better than anyone that Devs doesnt like to make consessions, let's put this scenario:

You devote say 3 months to a new fitting UI and then give ppl the option to choose between the old one and the new one, let's say it's split 50/50 on preferences, now in this scenario u'll be obliged to work double for every future addition u might put on the fitting overview.

Let's put another scenario, how about only 5% of the pilots choose to use the new fittings, that would mean that ur 3 months of hard work would have been wasted.

One interesting possibility now is the addition of more than 8 slots to the fitting overlay, also the posibility of a fifth or even a sixth slot types (counting highs, meds, lows and rigs) for balance issues against the new t3 ships.

i think all this changes and possibilities overweights the downside of having to adapt to a new fitting layout, dont u think?

H Zebra
Zebra Corp
Posted - 2009.02.17 17:16:00 - [190]
 

Originally by: riverini
Originally by: H Zebra
Originally by: riverini
hey Dev, just say no to him so we can haz another quitting riot... ugh... idk who could actually cares for the so called purists in a game that haz always characterized itself for it's constant innovation and rampant evolution.




LOL i just would like a straight answer to a realy straight forward question. no soon no later no maybe, just yes or no. why is that so much to ask for?



Lol man u know better than anyone that Devs doesnt like to make consessions, let's put this scenario:

You devote say 3 months to a new fitting UI and then give ppl the option to choose between the old one and the new one, let's say it's split 50/50 on preferences, now in this scenario u'll be obliged to work double for every future addition u might put on the fitting overview.

Let's put another scenario, how about only 5% of the pilots choose to use the new fittings, that would mean that ur 3 months of hard work would have been wasted.

One interesting possibility now is the addition of more than 8 slots to the fitting overlay, also the posibility of a fifth or even a sixth slot types (counting highs, meds, lows and rigs) for balance issues against the new t3 ships.

i think all this changes and possibilities overweights the downside of having to adapt to a new fitting layout, dont u think?


Not when teh new one hurt my eyes so bad. is pooorly laid out and covers 80% of teh screen size i use. now come to think of how unreadible the text will be when it scales to that size(1074 x 764, 3rd from bottom option).. maybe they just want peopel to play at full screen and will do away with other options? come on get with the times full screen is where its at baby.

riverini
Gallente
Reliables Inc
BricK sQuAD.
Posted - 2009.02.17 17:25:00 - [191]
 

Originally by: H Zebra
Originally by: riverini
Originally by: H Zebra
Originally by: riverini
hey Dev, just say no to him so we can haz another quitting riot... ugh... idk who could actually cares for the so called purists in a game that haz always characterized itself for it's constant innovation and rampant evolution.




LOL i just would like a straight answer to a realy straight forward question. no soon no later no maybe, just yes or no. why is that so much to ask for?



Lol man u know better than anyone that Devs doesnt like to make consessions, let's put this scenario:

You devote say 3 months to a new fitting UI and then give ppl the option to choose between the old one and the new one, let's say it's split 50/50 on preferences, now in this scenario u'll be obliged to work double for every future addition u might put on the fitting overview.

Let's put another scenario, how about only 5% of the pilots choose to use the new fittings, that would mean that ur 3 months of hard work would have been wasted.

One interesting possibility now is the addition of more than 8 slots to the fitting overlay, also the posibility of a fifth or even a sixth slot types (counting highs, meds, lows and rigs) for balance issues against the new t3 ships.

i think all this changes and possibilities overweights the downside of having to adapt to a new fitting layout, dont u think?


Not when teh new one hurt my eyes so bad. is pooorly laid out and covers 80% of teh screen size i use. now come to think of how unreadible the text will be when it scales to that size(1074 x 764, 3rd from bottom option).. maybe they just want peopel to play at full screen and will do away with other options? come on get with the times full screen is where its at baby.


It's left to see how well the UI scales to small monitors, i play with a 22" 1650 x 1080 lcd which would make the widescreen oriented fitting panel looks good.

BTW have u seen it in motion?

found this @ utube:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xcI0SJvjzFE

The only critic i have is that i want the ship to some across the ring XD so i'll looks cooler.

H Zebra
Zebra Corp
Posted - 2009.02.17 17:35:00 - [192]
 

Edited by: H Zebra on 17/02/2009 17:40:24
Edited by: H Zebra on 17/02/2009 17:37:53
Originally by: riverini
It's left to see how well the UI scales to small monitors, i play with a 22" 1650 x 1080 lcd which would make the widescreen oriented fitting panel looks good.

BTW have u seen it in motion?

found this @ utube:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xcI0SJvjzFE

The only critic i have is that i want the ship to some across the ring XD so i'll looks cooler.[/quote



i too play on a 22" monitor, running 3 clients normally, sometimes up to 5 depends on what im doing mostly.
this is what teh old and new fitting screens look like to me. you can easily see why id liek the old one to stay, i think any way.
Linkage

PC5
Against Polish Authorities
AAA Citizens
Posted - 2009.02.17 17:45:00 - [193]
 

Please make it useful NOT SHINY! Atm its more shiny than useful. Plain wrong :/

riverini
Gallente
Reliables Inc
BricK sQuAD.
Posted - 2009.02.17 19:05:00 - [194]
 

any design proposals?

This is the thing, complaining is quite easy, but i think if will be more useful if we could propose solutions instead of complaining of the problems...

Am not defending the Devs, i agree that usability should always overcome aesthetics, but that doesn't mean we should keep stating the obvious so repeatedly.

peace!

H Zebra
Zebra Corp
Posted - 2009.02.17 19:19:00 - [195]
 

Edited by: H Zebra on 17/02/2009 19:28:02
Edited by: H Zebra on 17/02/2009 19:20:00
Originally by: riverini
any design proposals?

This is the thing, complaining is quite easy, but i think if will be more useful if we could propose solutions instead of complaining of the problems...

Am not defending the Devs, i agree that usability should always overcome aesthetics, but that doesn't mean we should keep stating the obvious so repeatedly.

peace!


amend the old one, there was a design preposed in the game development forum which was an amended revamp of the current one, it fitted all the new features on the same screen and looked liek it had no usibility issues. i understand that teh dev's may have put a lot of work into this and its features. but that will be wasted if its usiblity is low. they could delay the upgrade to this one until it is fully functional under all conditions.
Form over function is never a good idea imho i rather something not look great and work well, than something that looks great but is a pain to use.

I rather not keep telling the same thing over and over too, but if they dont listern it will effect the way i play the game. full screen will be the order of things

riverini
Gallente
Reliables Inc
BricK sQuAD.
Posted - 2009.02.17 19:32:00 - [196]
 

agreed, if u see my previous picture post i addressed the usability issue putting some sort of SLOT buttons to have the desired slots as close as possible to the item box, one thing that comes to my mind, also having usability in mind is to have preset filters for modules, say i press a high slot button and i only get high slot modules, also i would like to see a "arrange by frequency of usage" button, god forbid we could ever have FOLDERS FOR ITEMS @ STATIONS!!

idk why item folders hasn't been implemented yet, and if they are in fact implemented they should be better documented.

H Zebra
Zebra Corp
Posted - 2009.02.17 19:40:00 - [197]
 

at the moment all sorting is done in my hanger, my hanger knows what mod type's they are and nice and neatly lists them in that order. all i have to do as a user is move them 3 inches or so. no drop down menus, no reopening the drop down menues after you swap to another drop down menu. it works nice and simply, thats all i want when i fit a ship, nice and easy. i dont want complex displays, over lapping of texts, having to close all other windows so i can see what everything says.

GodI'mBeautiful
Posted - 2009.02.17 19:49:00 - [198]
 

Very nice looking screen, but really, who on earth designed this, someone after their first Photoshop course? The only thing nice about it is the ability to save fittings, but as usual CCP missed the boat and went overboard on a new feature that only a tiny minority of Eve actually will use, i.e. T3 ships.

I work for a company that does UI design. If we produced stuff like this for our customers, we'd be in similar straights to Iceland, right now.

Congrats CCP, for missing out on really needed fixes once again and doing some more bling to advertise in flash banners all over the web.Rolling Eyes

Treelox
Posted - 2009.02.17 19:51:00 - [199]
 

CCP Fendahl,

Thank you for responding to this thread, I think myself and many others were becoming concerned about the lack of response to our feedback.


That said, I carefully read over your multiple responses on the last couple pages, and there is one thing that keeps cropping up that disturbs me. Your response to many of what I consider excellent player ideas and critisims, is to tell us that a particular feature was cut or pushed back to some possible future expansion. This concerns me, since we have seen this "excuse" before, from CCP, and yet we still are waiting for some of those promised features years later.

Might I just make the suggestion, that if you cant get a feature fully ready before an expansion, dont release it half assed, dont release it pre-nerfed, dont release it unfinished or unpolished. Continue to work on it and just release it in its entirety at a later date.

Nothig annoys a user base than a half arsed implemented feature that teases them with beautiful art and terrible interactability. Please concern yourselves with adding only fully functional "upgrades" to the game.

Of course this is particularlly a problem this expansion because you guys gimped yourselves to a hard date for the expansion, by getting into bed with a 3rd party publisher(ATARI). You all further added to your burden by pushing your normal "summer expansion" 2-3 months earlier.


----

As a side note, I would like to keep the old fitting window in game until you(CCP), can deliver us a fully functional and implemented new fitting window. Not have us be given a gimped new fitting window, and then once you guys finally get around to considering it "complete", giving us back the old one if we are still whining.

d0nt
Posted - 2009.02.17 20:29:00 - [200]
 

Originally by: CCP Fendahl
Originally by: H Zebra
can you please answer my question??? will we get the option to use teh old fitting screen? or are we stuck with the new one?
Already did...

Originally by: fendahl
Originally by: Vir Hellnami
Is there any way to have a version that would not show the [...] view of my ship in the docks? Could this be made as toggle able, since UI-space is valuable when fitting a ship
It's certainly possible, though it's not currently planned for the expansion. If it's still something a lot of you guys want after we have worked out the new fitting screen, it's certainly something we would look into. We want more awesome, not less! Very Happy




Please look on this special attention as many have got used to a current window and would like to continue to play with it and further

Eraggan Sadarr
Comply Or Die
Posted - 2009.02.17 20:35:00 - [201]
 

Originally by: Treelox
CCP Fendahl,

Thank you for responding to this thread, I think myself and many others were becoming concerned about the lack of response to our feedback.


That said, I carefully read over your multiple responses on the last couple pages, and there is one thing that keeps cropping up that disturbs me. Your response to many of what I consider excellent player ideas and critisims, is to tell us that a particular feature was cut or pushed back to some possible future expansion. This concerns me, since we have seen this "excuse" before, from CCP, and yet we still are waiting for some of those promised features years later.

Might I just make the suggestion, that if you cant get a feature fully ready before an expansion, dont release it half assed, dont release it pre-nerfed, dont release it unfinished or unpolished. Continue to work on it and just release it in its entirety at a later date.

Nothig annoys a user base than a half arsed implemented feature that teases them with beautiful art and terrible interactability. Please concern yourselves with adding only fully functional "upgrades" to the game.

Of course this is particularlly a problem this expansion because you guys gimped yourselves to a hard date for the expansion, by getting into bed with a 3rd party publisher(ATARI). You all further added to your burden by pushing your normal "summer expansion" 2-3 months earlier.


----

As a side note, I would like to keep the old fitting window in game until you(CCP), can deliver us a fully functional and implemented new fitting window. Not have us be given a gimped new fitting window, and then once you guys finally get around to considering it "complete", giving us back the old one if we are still whining.


I must say i agree on this!
Though I do hope that the current sisi version is, as was stated earlier, a mock up implemented before anyone actually thought about the design.

One last thing. If you must implement it... Then please remember that a lot of people are running on: low res screens/several account in windowed mode/ 4:3 aspect ratio.

Wadaya
Trailerpark Industries
Posted - 2009.02.17 21:23:00 - [202]
 

Edited by: Wadaya on 17/02/2009 21:27:21
Originally by: Treelox
CCP Fendahl,

Thank you for responding to this thread, I think myself and many others were becoming concerned about the lack of response to our feedback.


That said, I carefully read over your multiple responses on the last couple pages, and there is one thing that keeps cropping up that disturbs me. Your response to many of what I consider excellent player ideas and critisims, is to tell us that a particular feature was cut or pushed back to some possible future expansion. This concerns me, since we have seen this "excuse" before, from CCP, and yet we still are waiting for some of those promised features years later.

Might I just make the suggestion, that if you cant get a feature fully ready before an expansion, dont release it half assed, dont release it pre-nerfed, dont release it unfinished or unpolished. Continue to work on it and just release it in its entirety at a later date.

Nothig annoys a user base than a half arsed implemented feature that teases them with beautiful art and terrible interactability. Please concern yourselves with adding only fully functional "upgrades" to the game.

Of course this is particularlly a problem this expansion because you guys gimped yourselves to a hard date for the expansion, by getting into bed with a 3rd party publisher(ATARI). You all further added to your burden by pushing your normal "summer expansion" 2-3 months earlier.


----

As a side note, I would like to keep the old fitting window in game until you(CCP), can deliver us a fully functional and implemented new fitting window. Not have us be given a gimped new fitting window, and then once you guys finally get around to considering it "complete", giving us back the old one if we are still whining.


Let me list my favorite examples!

1) Invention implants
2) the promised future dev blog on Linux support and the changes that were almost complete.
3) after numerous forum "revamps" the search function cleary wasn't on the list to be fixed.
4) A wikipedia that can't be editted (why call it a wiki then?)
5) I miss TreeloxCrying or Very sad

Basically, it seems the SOP of CCP operations is, make a few posts about something and hope the users forget. Because either they had no plans on fixing something in the first place if they can't do it one night of drinking, or they planned on doing something to fix whatever but decided there was no way to consume that much beer in one night and just decided not to tell us.

Work on things that need fixing first. Improve what works perfectly fine later. Don't give us the crap that you have different groups working on different things. No matter how many groups are working on whatever, there should only be ONE vision.


Imhothar Xarodit
Minmatar
Wolverine Solutions
Posted - 2009.02.17 23:23:00 - [203]
 

Originally by: CCP Fendahl
We're still discussing whether to show the sub-system slots for non T3 ship. The arguments for, are that the fitting screen would show the possibilities even if you're in an Ibis: up to 8 high/med/low, 3 rig slots and 4 sub-system slots, and that the fitting screen should be consistent regardless of the ship you’re in (consistency is a good usability principle in general).
Consistency is good, yes, but there is also the principle "do not show more information than is required/relevant to the user to perform a specific task". Simply put: do not overwhelm the player with information he would not care about, in this case subsystem slots on non-T3ch ships. You have to measure carefully which principle outweights the other and this, dear CCP, can only be done by testing: never make assumptions on how the user will use/like the UI, that is one of the basic rules of UI design!. I have worked on quite some projects involving UI design and a fact is, the user/client always perceives the UI differently than the developer (because he wants to accomplish a task using the UI). You also have to consider that the subsystems are all-or-nothing, module slots vary from 0 to 8.
Originally by: CCP Fendahl
Originally by: Imhothar Xarodit
On the western hemisphere, most important information should be in specific corners, from most important to least important: top-left, top-right, bottom-left, bottom-right (hint: reading a book). I would classify the ship statistics as more important than the item list. <Showing market groups, then list the modules inside the ring>
The workflow was actually designed around this: select modules from the left, fit them in the center and observe the effect to the right.

Your method for selecting modules certainly seems quite juicy and it's definitely worth looking into. One potential problem with this approach is that it might be fiddly to navigate between containers, depending on how it is implemented, but it could probably be worked out. We'd also need to figure out a good method for bringing up the menu without making it hard to use for the lower slots (in case there isn't enough room for the menu below the slot).
The pictures I gave were just an instance for selecting the left-most high slot. The idea is that the "market group arc" is always displayed right next to the current slot, centered to it (minimize mouse movement distance), and always on the inner side of the main circle (consistency). So, if you select a low slot (which is now on the bottom as you stated) would display the market group arc on the bottom, centered to the module button.

For the container switching thing... yes it is difficult, One should work with masking areas and proper timeouts, like when you leave the circle, let there be a window of a few seconds and then the "innards" fade out (oh yeah, fading instead of show/hide is also juicy Wink), but be isntanly replaced with new content once you hover over a new market group.

I hope you get the idea (I could try to create some more mockups if something is stil unclear).
It would make this part of the UI more dynamic, and I think dynamics is what the EVE UI is lacking the most, everything is very static, nothing is moving "smoothly" (it has been researched quite well that people understand UIs better if they "see" what happens, aka a window "sliding" from A to B instead of just plopping there [even quickly, just not instanly]), it does not "adapt" to the current situation etc.
This in particular would make the UI "feel" intelligent and context-aware: If you select a low slot, you are most likely only interested in viewing modules you can fit in low slots, if you select the lasers group for the highs, you only want to see what lasers you have etc.
As a developer myself I can quite imagine the work behind such a real-time filtering and structuring algorithm, but if done correclty this could be the first step in makig the EVE UI more "modern".

Che Biko
Humanitarian Communists
Posted - 2009.02.17 23:39:00 - [204]
 

Edited by: Che Biko on 18/02/2009 14:25:15
I'd like the option to save cargo bay contents too.
And an option to online or offline all modules at once.

Del Narveux
Dukes of Hazard
Posted - 2009.02.18 00:11:00 - [205]
 

Sorry, but I don't like it. Saving/loading and the PIP stuff for subsystems sounds good, but the placement around the ring and the ring itself makes virtually no sense at all.

Seriously I don't see whats so wrong with the current one, which has modules listed 'in order' of high/med/low and does a much better job graphing stats like cpu/grid and resists.

Silmo Kazadrex
Posted - 2009.02.18 01:36:00 - [206]
 

It appears we are getting this new interface because the T3 team want people to see their ship change when adding sub-systems.
As I cant see me doing anything with T3 ships apart from blowing them up I would really like the option of the current UI as I really dont like the new one.

H Zebra
Zebra Corp
Posted - 2009.02.18 13:07:00 - [207]
 

Just been on sisi again... wow its movible. but is still unclear not straightforward to use. slots are all over shop and still has a problem scaling to smaller windows and screen res... just give us teh option to use teh old one if we want ccp. let teh user decide which one they would like.

i just dont understand why that is such a problem for you CCP Fendahl


Jach Wong
Posted - 2009.02.18 16:32:00 - [208]
 

Recommended reading for all UI developers: The Design of Everyday Things.

User interface really should put user usability above all other things. I can appreciate many of the design goals, but the priority of usability seems to have been forgotten.

It's also worth noting that much as some would like it to be otherwise, EVE really is Excel in space. You can make it pretty, but at the end of the day, a polished spreadsheet is still a spreadsheet.

Gummi
Posted - 2009.02.18 17:21:00 - [209]
 

Build: 6.10.80418
In the fitting window.

You can right-click move on your ship in the centre of the ring , it does not snap back to centre and its possible to loose the visual on the ship.

High slots are to the left? Logic?

Tech 3 slots always showing.

Lastly. 100 marks for using form over function. Linkage





Clansworth
Good Rock Materials
Posted - 2009.02.18 20:05:00 - [210]
 

Well, finally got in to check it out, and so far, the version in SiSi is decent. I do like what PiP adds to it. First really bad complaint though is the way that ammo is displayed. I happened to be in a Hulk, with quite a complement of mining crystals n the hold, and the cluttered display of tiny little mining crystals make the actual mining laser completely hidden. I definitely would prefer going back to the small circle with the currently loaded charge in it, and then a right click option to bring up a filtered list of what can be loaded.

My other suggestion is to get some more use out of the pretty UI. I'd propose being able to detach the right portion and keep it up outside the fitting interface, with the intent of having it show ingame effects. For instance, When hit with ECM, show the nullifying effect on sensor strength, and reduced range, etc. When hit by weapons fire, flash/glow an appropriately colored box around the appropriate damage type/types (preferably, intensity relative to damage). You get the ideas.

Also, for total seamlessness and consistency, I would actually like to see the HUD be redesigned to match the new fitting screen, and have the fitting screen actually grow out of the HUD circle, instead of popping up and drawing as a new window.


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