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Casiella Truza
Ecliptic Rift
Posted - 2009.02.14 16:54:00 - [31]
 

Lots of great feedback I see in here. The EVElopedia links would be really helpful as would a little more opacity on the window itself. Others have already gone into great detail and clearly have put tremendous amounts of thought into it, so I hope that CCP Fendahl and his team take them seriously and in the spirit in which they're offered.

And if you're looking for areas to improve next (after fitting), the S&I window and asset windows need a lot of help.

Kaahles
Deliverers of Pain
Posted - 2009.02.14 16:55:00 - [32]
 

Originally by: Marlenus
Suggestion:

Why not put the rigs and subsystems in the left arc of the Viewmaster, so that low slots can remain, uh, low?

Right now it's going to be very confusing, especially to newer players.

"Make sure you put cargo expanders in your low slots before you go mining in that Bantam!"

"Er, which ones are the low slots? The ones on the right or the ones on the left?"

"The ones on the left."

"Then, why don't you call 'em leftslots?"

"..."

Well, if you use the item browser the way it is intended you don't need to know WHERE they are located on the UI Rolling Eyes

Manfred Rickenbocker
Pan Galactic Gargle Blasters
Important Internet Spaceship League
Posted - 2009.02.14 16:57:00 - [33]
 

After seeing the first version (I havent checked the new one, if its been updated), everything is looking real slick! I only have two real issues however:
  • The icons are really tiny hard to discern after you fit and are using a windowed resolution. (Multi-boxers anyone?)

  • It is really difficult to sort through all the items you can use to fit your ship with. Ive got a few hangars with 200+ items, and one with over 500. The window needs the ability to remove items from the list by type, size, fitting and slot.


Keep up the good work! The UI is the thing most needing improvement in Eve.

Shalmaneser ili
Caldari
Gemeinschaft interstellarer Soeldner
Posted - 2009.02.14 17:00:00 - [34]
 

Another suggestion - to keep the personal hangar of older players who crosstrained a lot of races/shiptypes somehow manageable in addition to managing loot, minerals for production and/or transported items for trading - how about implementing a personal hangar subdivision which can be accessed by "Personal Ship Modules" on the fitting screen, leaving the "standard" hangar untouched and uncluttered? Or, as a workaround, make it possible to link a container to PSM like a Station Vault?

Would any of that work?

Zaraa
United Forces
Posted - 2009.02.14 17:03:00 - [35]
 

Edited by: Zaraa on 14/02/2009 17:35:25
Edited by: Zaraa on 14/02/2009 17:05:28
I couldn't find where I could see how much space I had left in cargo or drone bay. Other then that first impressions was possetive. Saveing and Loading fittings, Eyecandy, info on effective HP etc is a nice addition. Very Good.

Ydyp Ieva
Caldari
Amarrian Retribution
Posted - 2009.02.14 17:06:00 - [36]
 

Well at the first glimpse it was like: wow nice job. Then went on sisi and found out it sucks to be usefull. Hope you guys get that PIP thing working realy quick as at this moment needing to close half of all my windows isn't the way to get this to work.

Also what I miss about it is the function to load drones into the drone bay. In the previous one we had 2 buttons to open drone bay and cargo bay. For the cargo bay we also got the additional button at on the ship readout and modules. But there isn't any for the drone bay. Which makes it for me hard to refit drones near an ship assembly/maintenance array (pos/capital). As the the open drone bay isn't on the right click menu of your ship either.

Steve Thomas
Minmatar
Sebiestor Tribe
Posted - 2009.02.14 17:07:00 - [37]
 

the impresion im getting overall is that the team is hellbent on making things harder for everyone. first they take away 90% of the sp for newbies,(here is a clue Developers, Making it so that it will take 1-2 months to get to the same place as a new player who started the day before you droped the expansion in everyones lap is not a good idea.Period.) they force everyone into premium/Premium lt. both of them are still so clunky that many people who run multiple accounts in classic cant in premium with anything aproaching an acceptable frame rate.

(as for Premium lt, it leakes memory so bad they should rename it the Titanic, suposedly its on the "to be fixed now" list)

Katana Seiko
Gallente
Posted - 2009.02.14 17:14:00 - [38]
 

I think it looks awesome.
Just one more thing I'd like to know: How will we be able to share those fittings with others? Maybe you could add an item like the bookmarks, a "Fitting Description" or whatever that you can drag from the fitting screen to your cargohold and trade it to other players from there...

Marlenus
Ironfleet Towing And Salvage
Posted - 2009.02.14 17:16:00 - [39]
 

Edited by: Marlenus on 14/02/2009 17:17:07
Originally by: Kaahles
Well, if you use the item browser the way it is intended you don't need to know WHERE they are located on the UI Rolling Eyes

Well, I guess my point is that high, mid, and low slots are a pretty fundamental part of EVE design, and they will remain so -- that's still how they are designated in the ship information windows, for instance. Thus, it strikes me as a serious design mistake to abandon this paradigm in the place where EVE makes slots most visible -- the ship fitting window.

Especially when, from what I can see, there's no functionality in the new design that would be lost by putting the rigs and subsystem slots where the "leftslots" currently are.

Mark my words, if this does not change, six months from now we'll routinely see newer players talking about "leftslots" and "rightslots" when they discuss ship fittings among themselves. I see this as adding pointless confusion to the game.

Dr Resheph
Amarr
YOU ARE NOW READING THIS LOUDLY
Posted - 2009.02.14 17:22:00 - [40]
 

You wanted to avoid yet another excel spreadsheet in space but your new fitting window is completely useless without the information and statistics on the side panels. So in the end it ends up being the same rectangular shape. Only difference is that its more transparent and therefore, harder to read.

It's as if you took the old UI, cut a hole in the middle and made it five times less user friendly. Pray tell, what is the big fascination with being able to see your ship while you fit? Do you think we're going to somehow forget that, yes, this is a goddamn Apocalypse we are playing with now?

I feel confused when the UI Team goes poking into one of the last places that needs it. Name any other UI element, and I'll tell you just how much worse it is than Quantum Rise fitting window.

For the record, this is what you did wrong:

1. Transparency looks nice, but isn't user friendly.

2. Remove module and Info button trails are annoying and redundant.

3. Can't have more than one left-side menu open at once; all menus collapsed by default.

4. CPU / Powergrid bars are blended into the UI with no obvious start/end points; too large and entirely worthless without readout.

5. Drop shadow and bevel emboss on the fitting ring? Really?

6. The hardpoints graphic is not intuitive, takes up too much space, and looks out of place. What do the grey circles represent? Hardpoints left? Hardpoints used?

7. Small autocannon and standard launcher icons in my fitting window, when you have none fitted. Newbs will love that one.

8. You made the module icons smaller and blurrier, and the green 'active' button as visually intrusive as possible.

9. Ammo now takes up the entire turret space, making it harder to see what guns you have fitted as you're cycling through multiple ships.

10. No drag, no minimize, no close, no resize.

11. No cargo capacity readout to show what you have and what you used.

12. Same thing for drones, add the missing drone bandwidth on top.

13. Can't see or make drone groupings in fitting window, the most obvious new feature you could have added.

14. The colored backgrounds on the resistance readouts are useless because you don't know where they start or end.

15. What is that circular capacitor graphic good for, exactly?

16. Your free floating and icons around the ring only blend into my station environments, and my eye has to keep straining to spot them while the strobe lights move around.

17. The short animation you get when opening the fitting window is lame and pointless.

18. UI behaviour changes depending on whether the side panels are open. Sometimes you can click-drag to rotate camera, other times the mouse gets stuck. Completely unintuitive.

19. Your fitting window blocks parts of my neocom and station panel on the lowest resolution.

20. It's completely out of place with the rest of the UI, and whether or not you intend to change the rest in time, the fact remains you have two different UI designs and behaviours for the duration instead of one logical theme and set of behaviors.

21. You're still missing vital information from this new fitting window, just as the old one. I still have to 'show info' on my ship to get the whole picture.

22. You added new information with hitpoint calculations, but you force the user to select from an obscure dropdown window instead of doing a simple check to see what sort of setup that person has.

23. The left-side panel boxes are mixing two types of information: stuff in station and stuff in your ship with no obvious distinction between the two.

24. The left-side panel boxes are tiny, and worthless for scrolling through a mountain of assets, some in containers and other ships. They don't even extend fully in the horizontal and waste space.

25. This design sucks bacause Stargate sucks.


Have a nice day.

Creat Posudol
Gallente
Eve Dragons
Imperial Crimson Legion
Posted - 2009.02.14 17:25:00 - [41]
 

I only have a second for some first-glace feedback and haven't read the other responses (will catch up with those later).
The primary thing I've noticed are lacking boundaries for all things displaying progress-bar-like amounts. By that I mean the CPU/PG usage bars in the sides of the cirle and the resistances. There is no indication of where the 100% mark is, so having a quick glace at the resistance values doesn't give me an idea of how good they are until I actually read the numbers (which surely wasn't the intention). To judge that I need to know where the box ends (i.e. where the 100% mark is), otherwise I have to basically guess from where the next bar starts (but don't know how much free space is meant to be in between and so on). Same goes for the CPU/PG graphs. Even if 100% is at the top in the mittdle, just put some marker there to make it clearer and more obvious. Also these two bars might be too long to be of any use besides looking pretty.

The only other thing I've noticed is when clicking the 'remove' button for a scanner or weapon to remove the charges I usualy want them in the cargo bay of that ship, not the station hangar. It would be best to place them into whatever is expanded on the left of the fittings window or give an option to se a 'primary' location somewhere...

Visualy I love the new fitting UI (especially considering we're still a month from deployment or so), I just can't understand those who want to keep the old one compared to this Rolling Eyes

Deva Blackfire
Viziam
Posted - 2009.02.14 17:28:00 - [42]
 

Move lowslots to bottom, midslots to the left. Put bottom part (rigs/components) to right. Result? More intuitive fitting screen.

Dr Resheph
Amarr
YOU ARE NOW READING THIS LOUDLY
Posted - 2009.02.14 17:28:00 - [43]
 

Originally by: Creat Posudol
I just can't understand those who want to keep the old one compared to this Rolling Eyes


Name one advantage of the new UI and how it renders the old one obsolete. You have five minutes.

keepiru
Omega Fleet Enterprises
Executive Outcomes
Posted - 2009.02.14 17:39:00 - [44]
 

Originally by: Deva Blackfire
Move lowslots to bottom, midslots to the left. Put bottom part (rigs/components) to right. Result? More intuitive fitting screen.

Kaahles
Deliverers of Pain
Posted - 2009.02.14 17:54:00 - [45]
 

Originally by: Dr Resheph
Originally by: Creat Posudol
I just can't understand those who want to keep the old one compared to this Rolling Eyes


Name one advantage of the new UI and how it renders the old one obsolete. You have five minutes.

I'll take the liberty of doing it for him...

  • Save/Load Fittings - makes everything easier

  • Item Browser - needs some upgrades but after all you don't need to have open tons of different windows anymore you can basically do everything within the fitting window itself

  • Easier Handling - Once you get used to it you'll be much faster in fitting/refitting your ships due the nice littel fitt/unfitt buttons

  • Tank Abilities - Displays your passive shield regen, active shield boost / armor rep amount

  • Design/Estetics - looks cool instead of "overstuffed" like the old one. Displays the same amount of information (if you know where to look) as the old one but feels more like a game ui instead of an excel spread sheet


satisfied? guess not but was worth a try.

Dr Resheph
Amarr
YOU ARE NOW READING THIS LOUDLY
Posted - 2009.02.14 18:09:00 - [46]
 

Originally by: Kaahles
I'll take the liberty of doing it for him...

  • Save/Load Fittings - makes everything easier



Why is this only achievable with a complete UI overhaul?

Originally by: Kaahles
  • Item Browser - needs some upgrades but after all you don't need to have open tons of different windows anymore you can basically do everything within the fitting window itself



  • Item browser is worthless in functionality, and for those of us who have 'merge items into station panel' your argument that it cuts down on open windows is moot.

    Originally by: Kaahles
  • Easier Handling - Once you get used to it you'll be much faster in fitting/refitting your ships due the nice littel fitt/unfitt buttons



  • I highly doubt that. The button only shows when you mouse over, and then you have to move down to where it is. Again, why did an 'unfit' button require a UI overhaul? The same thing could have been added to the current fitting window.

    Originally by: Kaahles
  • Tank Abilities - Displays your passive shield regen, active shield boost / armor rep amount



  • Which part of the UI overhaul was mandated by this additional information? And has it completely nulled the necessity of 'show info' on ships during fitting?

    Originally by: Kaahles
  • Design/Estetics - looks cool instead of "overstuffed" like the old one. Displays the same amount of information (if you know where to look) as the old one but feels more like a game ui instead of an excel spread sheet



  • Really? No one complained the old UI looked overcrowded or like an excel spreadsheet before this change. And the reason the new UI looks simpler is because it autohides information. You might be able to find it if you know where to look, but how is this helping anyone but newbs? It adds extra clicks.

    Originally by: Kaahles
    satisfied? guess not but was worth a try.


    You're trying to convince me the new UI is better because the old one is bad, or that the new UI is better because the old one doesn't have the same stats - even though it would easily accommodate if CCP decided not to change things.

    Your arguments are weak and you're grasping at straws. None of them explain how the old UI design is obsoleted by this thing. Explaining how its different is not the same thing.

    De'Veldrin
    Minmatar
    Norse'Storm Battle Group
    Intrepid Crossing
    Posted - 2009.02.14 18:09:00 - [47]
     

    Originally by: Destination SkillQueue
    Save fittings feature made me feel warm inside. Much improvement compared to the old. Thanks in advance.


    This, a hundred time this. As someone who changes fittings often, the ability to save them will be a blessing.

    Caiman Graystock
    Caldari
    Cornelius Starship and Computer Design
    Posted - 2009.02.14 18:09:00 - [48]
     

    It is very visually appealing, looks much better than the current screen and I really do like the layout. My complaint, is as mentioned in the devblog, the size of it, the lack of being able to move it, and that fact you can't make it opaque. If these three things can be addressed, it's perfect.

    QwaarJet
    Gallente
    hirr
    Morsus Mihi
    Posted - 2009.02.14 18:13:00 - [49]
     

    I know people will just say they like it (because they always do) but I think it looks terrible and isn't very functional. There is utterly no point in changing the fitting screen again. Put your resources into something useful.

    Treelox
    Posted - 2009.02.14 18:15:00 - [50]
     

    Edited by: Treelox on 14/02/2009 18:19:00
    While visually very beautifully done, I really hate the new UI in function. The only function I like is the save/trade settings feature.

    It takes up way to much screen real estate, and is not moveable. I really like how with the current fitting screen, I can move it up to the top left corner of my screen and it only takes up roughly a quarter of my screen. Now it blocks many of my open windows.

    I find the space in the center that displays the ship wasted. I dont need to see the ship at all while I am fitting it. Get rid of that and the whole thing would take up soooo much less screen space.

    I also agree with, as others have already stated, that the CPU/Grid/etc displays should be more defined and maybe show some sort of graduated scale, so we constantly dont have to use the tooltip hover while we tweak.

    Moveability of drones is a PITA.

    While not near as pretty, I feel that the UI for the old fitting window was perfection of function over beauty. This new one you have brought us is beauty over function. Was there any reason that we had to make a whole new art for this, when just adding 5 slots next to the rig slots on the current fitting window would of done pretty much the same thing, think of all the man hours you guys could of saved. Man hours that could of been redirected towards UIs in game that are truely borked, like the SI or POS UI's. Those have been biotched and moaned about for years, I didnt see many players complaining about the fitting UI though. Please in the future, fix what is broken or unintuitive, and dont try to reinvent the wheel everychance you get, just to give us eyecandy.


    Function over form, every time for me!


    ---edit1
    i kant speil

    Ephemeral Waves
    Silver Snake Enterprise
    Posted - 2009.02.14 18:15:00 - [51]
     

    The new fitting screen is a major step away from usability.

    Nothing is where you'd think it should be and the information you want (how much cpu left frex) has been removed and replaced with some bars that move around.

    They'd have been much better off just adjusting the current screen to have the new details that they wanted to add.

    And and as somebody else already mentioned, no more 'high, mid, low' slots. It's left, right and top....

    Treelox
    Posted - 2009.02.14 18:16:00 - [52]
     

    TLDR version of what I posted above


    function > cool looking

    Enthral
    Posted - 2009.02.14 18:17:00 - [53]
     

    Form over function. There isn't even a "Close Window" widget on the thing. It covers everything, but its semi-transparent nature makes it hard to read in spite of the massive amount of real estate it consumes.

    Has anyone tried this thing at a POS yet? I don't have a POS on SiSi at the moment.

    One step forward for looks, two steps backward for utility, if you ask me...

    -Enthral


    Kerfira
    Kerfira Corp
    Posted - 2009.02.14 18:28:00 - [54]
     

    It looks nice, but is pretty much unusable if you play in lower window sizes (I generally use 1024x768).....

    Please don't implement this. Changing something 'Usable' to 'Unusable' is not a good change....

    A very common mistake in SW development is to say "We've made this and now we'll put it in no matter what the opinion is...".
    A lot of other companies have made this mistake... Please don't you do it too....

    The old fitting screen is highly usable, facilitates what it is there for (fitting ships), and can be easily adjusted to the new functionality. This would be a much better solution.

    Goonda
    Minmatar
    DOMINATIO
    Posted - 2009.02.14 18:29:00 - [55]
     

    I know you guys put a lot of work into this, so this is painful to say. But I think you guys got a little lost on this project.

    I REALLY do not like this new fitting screen.

    I understand the desire to see the ship, especially with tech 3 ships coming out, but I have to question the wisdom of making this the primary feature of the fitting screen. And that is what you have done by centering it on the screen and making it the largest feature of the new layout. Having a ship that looks cool is nice, but I think most players are more concerned with the abilities of their vessel.

    First, what I like: I think that the statistics panel looks quite nice. I think it could be cleaned up a little more by removing the picture of the cap. It uses up way too much space and doesnt provide any more information than the numbers next to it. Then you can return cargo hold and drone bay capacities to the statistics panel. Also, couldnt you move the CPU/PG/Calibration numbers and bars over to the statistics panel? They are statistics, right? This move would allow you to return to using intuitive and easy to read horrizontal bars.

    Now for the bad: I am not a fan of the central layout (from a UI point of view), and I think that is the root of most of the issues. Information and controls (read: slots) are spread out over too wide of an area. This requires your eye to move around the entire circle to figure out what you currently have fitted. Having all of the information and slots in one or two centralized locations would allow the user to tell at a glance what is fitted.

    The CPU/PG/Calibration bars are forced by this setup into circular shapes which makes it difficult to identify, at a glance, how much is being used. These bars need to be in clearly defined boxes with clear easy to identify minimums and maximums. The circular shapes could be maintained, but they all need to be moved to a single location so that all the fitting limits can be seen at a single glance. This also holds true for the turret and launcher hard point displays. There is no need to have turrets on one side and launchers on the other, put them both in one location.

    If I had any say about the issue, I would redesign the central (circle) portion of this new layout. I would move the hi/mid/low slots to concentric quarter circles (similar to the old layout), so that all 3 sets of slots are basically where the high slots are now. Also, move the CPU/PG/Calibration/Hardpoint readouts to the statistics panel or place them over top of the ship display window. I would leave the rig and T3 slots where they are.

    With this set up, the side panels (statistics and hangars) could be moved toward the center slightly, reducing the overall width of the window at the expense of a slight increase in height. If combined with a resizable ship view window, the ship view could be minimized, or made much much smaller and the resultant layout would be almost identical to the old layout. This would make the transition to the new fitting screen a bit smoother because people could set it up to look similar to the old one, but with a few new features, like the optimized statistics panel.

    In conclusion, it is nice to have the UI looked at and revised, but the primary concern of a UI designer must be usability. The new layout is generally spread out and unintuitive, and I believe that this is mostly caused by loosing track of what the real goals of UI design should be. It is not enough to just use the old saying "form follows function". You have to decide which functions you need and which you do not, and then prioritize the ones you do.

    I realize that it is probably too far along to make any fundamental change to this UI design, but I hope something is done to improve it before the general release.

    Ikkajo
    Minmatar
    Illudium Space Products
    Posted - 2009.02.14 18:32:00 - [56]
     

    As someone that works a lot with end user applications and user interface design, I have to say that this design is terrible. It smacks of a graphic designer making it and not a user interface designer. There are so many things wrong with it, I'm not sure where to begin. Here's a couple of major points:

    - Colour differentiation: The brown colour makes it very difficult to read the text behind it. Most of the modules are dark coloured. The contrast between the module and the backgroud is difficult to distinguish. Brown is also a very bad background colour for colour-blind people.

    - The UI takes up way too much screen space for what it is actually doing. With more than 50% of the screen space not being used by the UI, even though it covers it all, is a bad design. Almost all of it needs to be functional.

    - Low/medium/high slot distingushing has disappeared now.
    Unless you can read the text (see colour blind issue above), a lot of the UI does not make any more sense. There's a gun icon on one side and a missile icon on the other side; What does that mean? The slots for those guns are not showing on the main ring, so how does one know what weapons are fitted?

    - Resize issue already mentioned

    Glengrant
    Beyond Limited
    Posted - 2009.02.14 18:37:00 - [57]
     

    Edited by: Glengrant on 14/02/2009 18:38:28
    I'm ok with the ring vs old style. Not a killer improvement though. It's cute that you can see your ship inside - but low value.

    That high slots are between low and med is bad IMHO. Yeah - I can see why you want high up on top - but then low should be down for the same resaon. Either way the sequence (low - med - high) should be correct.
    Fix: Keep high on top - med on side (left or right - I don't care) - low below that. Then the rest on the other side.

    It's been said above but bears repeating because it's important. For any non-trivial corp - access to corp hangar without considering station containers is close to useless.

    Saving/Loading fittings - pure awesome of course. :-)

    Labels on hover to compactify and get more info in place - right decision. People get used to the icons and locations in no time. Having more info at hand *far* outweighs having labels show all the time next to them. The labels are redundant after a short time anyway.

    Smagd
    Encina Technologies
    Namtz' aar K'in
    Posted - 2009.02.14 18:44:00 - [58]
     

    Please consider adding a way to remove the opening animation.

    There's a reason there was a switch to do skip this for the star map, which now opens instantly... It's visually nice, but it slows down actual work.

    The same logic applies to the old and the new fitting screens, really.

    Mal Plox
    Gallente
    The xDEATHx Squadron
    Legion of xXDEATHXx
    Posted - 2009.02.14 18:45:00 - [59]
     


    There is no point in displaying hardpoints we can't use. You don't display GM tools in our clients and allow us to click on em, just to say "You can't use that", so

    1. don't display T3 hardpoints if we aren't fitting a t3 ships

    2. going from drag-n-drop to click-select is a step back

    3. progress is what we are looking for


    Arekaine
    Gallente
    Shadowmen.
    Galactic System Lords Alliance
    Posted - 2009.02.14 18:45:00 - [60]
     

    Think I will wait till it's FINISHED until I start flaming it. As of right now, it is a far better improvement to the old one. It is sleek and stylish. And when all of the features have been put in and the final touches have been added. The ability to save fittings and share them is worth it's weight in gold. Peace out


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