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Trimutius III
Avalon Guards
Gypsy Band
Posted - 2009.02.12 00:08:00 - [1]
 

Edited by: Trimutius III on 12/02/2009 00:07:54
I've got an idea.

To replace a local chat it may be used a special probe or special new scanner.

How could it work.

Your ship or Your probe send distress signal. And all ships via the system (even cloaked ships) catches that distress signal.

Then scanner receieve info about quantity of active ship (ship with engine running (with pilots in it actually) also it recieve quantity of allied ships. (For backstory they send back transition when they catch transition)

All other in system recieve info that somebody have scanned the system and if he is ally or not.

So if u don't need to know that info you just don't use this scanner. If they need this info everyone know about their presence too.

Maybe it could be boost of Covert Ops, Blockade Runners and Recons (Like this scanner don't see the ships that are using Covert Ops Cloak or in cloak after jump (maybe only allies see and enemies don't)...

Why i said about probe. It's because of new launchers... of course such probe should fit into Core Probe Launcher...

Marcus Gideon
Gallente
Federal Defense Operations
Posted - 2009.02.12 00:54:00 - [2]
 

Honestly, there is a very simple and straightforward solution to any and all issues that Local presents.

Make the roster into a "Recent Speakers" instead of "Immediate".

Then you have no idea precisely "who" is in your system, unless they have spoken within the last 15min.


This would also force people to rely on the already present Probes and tactics that are available, without having to create new ones to do what is already there.

We don't need to create new, and we don't need to completely erase the old, we just need to subtly tweak a little here and there.

Trimutius III
Avalon Guards
Gypsy Band
Posted - 2009.02.12 04:47:00 - [3]
 

Originally by: Marcus Gideon
Honestly, there is a very simple and straightforward solution to any and all issues that Local presents.

Make the roster into a "Recent Speakers" instead of "Immediate".

Then you have no idea precisely "who" is in your system, unless they have spoken within the last 15min.


This would also force people to rely on the already present Probes and tactics that are available, without having to create new ones to do what is already there.

We don't need to create new, and we don't need to completely erase the old, we just need to subtly tweak a little here and there.


Nope.

As i remember what was said by CCP. They don't want to completely remove this feature. You should be able to know how much people their is un systems (even if they are cloaked and very far from you) And get some information if they allies or not... And also u should be able to use this system even if you carebear (miner or hunter)... Like that as i understood what was said by CCP...

Galan Amarias
Amarr
Kantian Principle
Posted - 2009.02.12 04:54:00 - [4]
 

How about just remove the "show info" button from local. No need to nerf ship fittings so everyone can have it. People could still use the people search to get info on a person but it'd be a lot more time intensive, thus adding a little time for the hunters w/o totally gimping the prey.

-Galan

Total Disaster
Caldari
Caldari Provisions
Posted - 2009.02.12 12:39:00 - [5]
 

Originally by: Galan Amarias
How about just remove the "show info" button from local. No need to nerf ship fittings so everyone can have it. People could still use the people search to get info on a person but it'd be a lot more time intensive, thus adding a little time for the hunters w/o totally gimping the prey.

-Galan


like this?

Cpt Cosmic
Posted - 2009.02.12 13:01:00 - [6]
 

as soon as my system scanner automatically scans everything and shows it automatically + how far away it is and as soon I can see whats outside station, then you can remove local.

SpawnSupreme
Posted - 2009.02.12 13:39:00 - [7]
 

unfortunatly i ask about replacing local and i was told it is not going to happenyou may wanna ask the devs if you want a detaild reason.

Robin Hodd
Posted - 2009.02.12 16:52:00 - [8]
 

high sec local should be left untouched - presume that the faction/concord provides the sensors etc
low sec not so sure
0.0 maybe could be changed by introducing some type of anchorable sensors (or just use sov) to certain sov and in turn the level of sov would determine sensor strengths, of course this should only provide any viable info to the correct corporation, but tbh the only real concern with local and the whole reason for this debate is cloaked ships...

Gaulian Fidelis
Posted - 2009.02.12 17:26:00 - [9]
 

Edited by: Gaulian Fidelis on 12/02/2009 17:28:24
Originally by: Robin Hodd
high sec local should be left untouched - presume that the faction/concord provides the sensors etc
low sec not so sure
0.0 maybe could be changed by introducing some type of anchorable sensors (or just use sov) to certain sov and in turn the level of sov would determine sensor strengths, of course this should only provide any viable info to the correct corporation, but tbh the only real concern with local and the whole reason for this debate is cloaked ships...


I agree with this post the most so far. I always thought local kind of killed the entire concept of scouting in a cloaked ship.

Then again, when a pirate warps into a low sec system and all the carebears flee like rabbits and he has to camp a gate to kill one, that seems kind of ******ed also. It also seems stupid that a miner in a low sec system/0.0 system should be able to be so easily detected just by local. Local seems like such an out there concept, if someone doesn't want to be detected in an area without security, he/she shouldn't really be detected.

Isabella Montague
Gallente
RUDE Alliance
Posted - 2009.02.12 18:02:00 - [10]
 

Originally by: Trimutius III
Edited by: Trimutius III on 12/02/2009 00:07:54

Your ship or Your probe send distress signal. And all ships via the system (even cloaked ships) catches that distress signal.


Why would your ship send a distress signal when you scan?

"Help me! I'm scanning!" wtf?

Originally by: Trimutius III

All other in system recieve info that somebody have scanned the system and if he is ally or not.


This idea presumes that everyone in game is either an Ally or an enemy (a la WoW). That is not true in EVE. People's alignment to you is always changing. The guy that was neutral/ally to you 2 seconds ago might suddenly decide he's bored and wants to pew pew something. Lucky for you that something ends up being you. Similarly, the enemy that was blasting you into dust might decide to be a nice guy and stop (it has happened to me before. Turns out the guy just wanted to test his new fitting).


Originally by: Trimutius III

Then scanner receieve info about quantity of active ship (ship with engine running (with pilots in it actually) also it recieve quantity of allied ships. (For backstory they send back transition when they catch transition)

All other in system recieve info that somebody have scanned the system and if he is ally or not.

So if u don't need to know that info you just don't use this scanner. If they need this info everyone know about their presence too.


So basically your idea is to replace local with a scanner that does the exact same thing? I think you're missing the point of why people want to get rid of local.

Marcus Gideon
Gallente
Federal Defense Operations
Posted - 2009.02.12 22:06:00 - [11]
 

Originally by: Marcus Gideon
Honestly, there is a very simple and straightforward solution to any and all issues that Local presents.

Make the roster into a "Recent Speakers" instead of "Immediate".

Then you have no idea precisely "who" is in your system, unless they have spoken within the last 15min.


This would also force people to rely on the already present Probes and tactics that are available, without having to create new ones to do what is already there.

We don't need to create new, and we don't need to completely erase the old, we just need to subtly tweak a little here and there.

RisenPhoenix
Shadowyn Corp.
Posted - 2009.02.12 22:29:00 - [12]
 

local isn't going to change it has worked just fine the entire time the game has been out if you can't pvp or spy with local the way it is your an idiot

Trimutius III
Avalon Guards
Gypsy Band
Posted - 2009.02.13 02:56:00 - [13]
 

Edited by: Trimutius III on 13/02/2009 03:03:48
Edited by: Trimutius III on 13/02/2009 02:57:37
Originally by: SpawnSupreme
unfortunatly i ask about replacing local and i was told it is not going to happenyou may wanna ask the devs if you want a detaild reason.

Zulupark said that they do want to replace local with something like a scanner with the similar function (slightly nerfed or not nerfed at all just replaced)
Like local has no really good backstory under it... And scanner could be easily implemented into a backstory.

Originally by: Isabella Montague


Why would your ship send a distress signal when you scan?

"Help me! I'm scanning!" wtf?


Me wrong. Just a signal. But I assume everybody should know from which corp is scanner. And scanner will recieve info if the others are allies or not and no corp info and no portraits of course (maybe corp info but only for allies)

Originally by: Isabella Montague


This idea presumes that everyone in game is either an Ally or an enemy (a la WoW). That is not true in EVE. People's alignment to you is always changing. The guy that was neutral/ally to you 2 seconds ago might suddenly decide he's bored and wants to pew pew something. Lucky for you that something ends up being you. Similarly, the enemy that was blasting you into dust might decide to be a nice guy and stop (it has happened to me before. Turns out the guy just wanted to test his new fitting).


No... Idea presumes You must say what does word "ally" mean. I think that it should be like that if the are plus standing from both sides then 2 individuals are allies. And yes, this scanner will help checking if the other side seted positive standing or not...

Originally by: Isabella Montague

So basically your idea is to replace local with a scanner that does the exact same thing? I think you're missing the point of why people want to get rid of local.

Not exactly. There are some differences:
- You don't get any portraits or even info who is allies or who is others and if they are from the same corp (alliance) or from many different corps that are even not connected to each other. Only digits and that's it.
- This scanner should not work without any delay... It could have a delay or cycle like 5-30 seconds.
- Maybe this scanner would not see Covert Ops frigates. (like Covert Ops Frigates have special systems that overcomes this scanner) But i think that this scanner should always see Recons and Blockade Runners. (of course u don't no that they are recons, u just know that there is somebody)

So at least 3 differences.

And this scanner have a disadvantage if you use it. Not only u get some info, all other get much more info about you.

Just a little example:

You want to gank Hunter Raven. For example this scanner does not see Cov Ops and have a cycle of 30 seconds. Then Covert Ops goes into a system and finds that Raven. Raven is unaware that there is somebody in the system. Then covert ops just waiting until Raven scans the system for another time and just after that his friends jump into system and warps to Cov Ops. For Ceptors 30 seconds could be quite enough... and heavier ships will get to a point a bit later... If 30 seconds isn't enough then maybe even make like this scanner doesn't see not only Cov Ops but also ships that are in afterjump cloak.

Kalia Masaer
Amarr Border Defense Consortium
Posted - 2009.02.13 07:47:00 - [14]
 


While I can see a need for change with local and some means to make it so the eve does not suddenly competely belong to the attacker. I do not see believability as a major reason to remove local.

There is a very obvious explanation why someone would be broadcast in local, they have passed through a gate and it has scanned, identified and passed on the information to the planetary system. Thinking of it that way it does become believable as most travel is through gates.

The main weakness in this is that jump cloning and jump portals are not accounted for.

Luthien Tanuviel
Newfound Technologies
Posted - 2009.02.13 07:57:00 - [15]
 

Originally by: Marcus Gideon
Originally by: Marcus Gideon
Honestly, there is a very simple and straightforward solution to any and all issues that Local presents.

Make the roster into a "Recent Speakers" instead of "Immediate".

Then you have no idea precisely "who" is in your system, unless they have spoken within the last 15min.


This would also force people to rely on the already present Probes and tactics that are available, without having to create new ones to do what is already there.

We don't need to create new, and we don't need to completely erase the old, we just need to subtly tweak a little here and there.



I fully agree with this but...

Originally by: Kalia Masaer
The main weakness in this is that jump cloning and jump portals are not accounted for.


maybe if someone jump clones into local that would be like speaking too then? Yes that would work I'm sure of it, having fleets sneak about would make small gang ops almost essential for the bigger fleet ops and everyones a winner?
I like that idea, although...
pirates not showing in local = whine ughSadCrying or Very sad

Trimutius III
Avalon Guards
Gypsy Band
Posted - 2009.02.13 08:45:00 - [16]
 

Originally by: Luthien Tanuviel
Originally by: Marcus Gideon
Originally by: Marcus Gideon
Honestly, there is a very simple and straightforward solution to any and all issues that Local presents.

Make the roster into a "Recent Speakers" instead of "Immediate".

Then you have no idea precisely "who" is in your system, unless they have spoken within the last 15min.


This would also force people to rely on the already present Probes and tactics that are available, without having to create new ones to do what is already there.

We don't need to create new, and we don't need to completely erase the old, we just need to subtly tweak a little here and there.



I fully agree with this but...

Originally by: Kalia Masaer
The main weakness in this is that jump cloning and jump portals are not accounted for.


maybe if someone jump clones into local that would be like speaking too then? Yes that would work I'm sure of it, having fleets sneak about would make small gang ops almost essential for the bigger fleet ops and everyones a winner?
I like that idea, although...
pirates not showing in local = whine ughSadCrying or Very sad


You think it's good? But as I see it CCP needs money from 0.0 carebears too. (even if they buy PLEX then just somebody else paid real money for their time of play)

Also you have forgoten not only logining on a station but logintrap and then cloaking.

If u nerf local like that then as I think scanner should be boosted and cloaking device should be nerfed... That's it. Or it would be totally chaos and then CCP just risking to lose many subscribers. But my idea doesn't totally nerf this feature, but changes it, 3 differences as i said above.

Luthien Tanuviel
Newfound Technologies
Posted - 2009.02.13 09:26:00 - [17]
 

Edited by: Luthien Tanuviel on 13/02/2009 09:31:02
Originally by: Trimutius III

I've got an idea.

To replace a local chat it may be used a special probe or special new scanner.

Your ship or Your probe send distress signal. And all ships via the system (even cloaked ships) catches that distress signal.

Then scanner receieve info about quantity of active ship (ship with engine running (with pilots in it actually) also it recieve quantity of allied ships. (For backstory they send back transition when they catch transition)

All other in system recieve info that somebody have scanned the system and if he is ally or not.

So if u don't need to know that info you just don't use this scanner. If they need this info everyone know about their presence too.

Maybe it could be boost of Covert Ops, Blockade Runners and Recons (Like this scanner don't see the ships that are using Covert Ops Cloak or in cloak after jump (maybe only allies see and enemies don't)...

Why i said about probe. It's because of new launchers... of course such probe should fit into Core Probe Launcher...


Ok, first - nerf cloaking? wtf? you wanna try and boost it (see above) second... see above??!
Yes the same point twice but if i felt it was such a GOOD point that it was worth mentioning twice.

All i really know is that your proposal would only offer the same people the benefits of local chat whilst not losing any of the bad points.
The other idea that i really do like benifits both sides as neither gain the upper hand, but it also means any pirates have to check every belt.
I suppose they both dothe same thing then... :-/
But having to scan system for ships and ttypes would suck imo, being able to cloak and not be seen would be great... haveing other non cloaked ships in system would mean less use of cloaks though...
The only thing i guess i could add would be some form of alarm probes that could be left at gates to warn you of incoming vessels..
Maybe this is why devs wont do it, kinda full of loopholes the more i think about it lol

see here

Trimutius III
Avalon Guards
Gypsy Band
Posted - 2009.02.13 14:49:00 - [18]
 

Edited by: Trimutius III on 13/02/2009 14:53:41
Originally by: Luthien Tanuviel

Ok, first - nerf cloaking? wtf? you wanna try and boost it (see above) second... see above??!


No, I think that only Covert Ops Frigates should be boosted and all other cloaking devices may be nerfed.


Originally by: Luthien Tanuviel

All i really know is that your proposal would only offer the same people the benefits of local chat whilst not losing any of the bad points.


It depends. I just tried to make system that would not change anything to just opossite. Just a little bit nerfed, but almost the same, that the main point.

Originally by: Luthien Tanuviel

The other idea that i really do like benifits both sides as neither gain the upper hand, but it also means any pirates have to check every belt.


If somebody should have a real benefit that is only Covert Ops Frigates as i think. To benefit just everybody is insane it's better to leave local as it is then benefit both sides.

Originally by: Luthien Tanuviel

But having to scan system for ships and ttypes would suck imo, being able to cloak and not be seen would be great... haveing other non cloaked ships in system would mean less use of cloaks though...


Yes that's a problem and that's why I say that cloak should be nerfed. There should be a device (probe maybe) that would be able to find cloaked ships (even maybe without telling type of ship, just tell that there is one in space). The only type of ships that maybe would not be seen by such probes would be Covert Ops. They are scouts and as i think it would be fair.

Originally by: Luthien Tanuviel

The only thing i guess i could add would be some form of alarm probes that could be left at gates to warn you of incoming vessels..


This thing have some problems. Logintrap. Covert Ops (or force recon) logins in the system and places Cov Ops Cyno. And a gang of recons can easily kill target.

Originally by: Luthien Tanuviel

Maybe this is why devs wont do it, kinda full of loopholes the more i think about it lol


I remember what Zulupark said while he was answering questions:
Here

He said i'll quote:

Originally by: CCP Zulupark

Local changes:
Yeah, I actually thought that was so obvious that I didn't need to mention it. But yes, any changes to local will of course have to be hand-in-hand with changes to scanning mechanics. You must be able to somehow get quick-ish intel on the basic status of the system you're in.


And I based my idea on that.

ChalSto
Galactic Shipyards Inc
Huzzah Federation
Posted - 2009.02.13 14:59:00 - [19]
 

Edited by: ChalSto on 13/02/2009 14:59:16
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lITBGjNEp08

Trimutius III
Avalon Guards
Gypsy Band
Posted - 2009.02.14 18:05:00 - [20]
 

Originally by: ChalSto

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lITBGjNEp08


Better read this thread:
http://myeve.eve-online.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=802043

The very first rule for this forum:

Originally by: CCP Mitnal

1) This is a breeding ground for ideas. If someone has an idea, listen to it. If you don't like it, think about why. Constructive feedback is good. Posting "That's an awful idea," is not constructive.



So I wait for your arguments or get out of here...


And yes as i said my idea don't replace local with something totally new. The scanner uses similar idea. Just with some differences. So don't tell me that it's something totally new. But it's not the same as local also... It just a little bit different...



 

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