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Isis Soryu
Caldari
Universitas Interimo Research
Posted - 2009.02.11 12:36:00 - [181]
 

Originally by: RisenPhoenix
lol just another alt this keeps getting funnier, how many more you gonna use?

Paranoid aren't you. Laughing Do the alts scare you? Not that I care, feel free to look me up ingame.

Rodj Blake
Amarr
PIE Inc.
Posted - 2009.02.11 12:39:00 - [182]
 

Originally by: Noriko Rei

If Achura is such an overpowered bloodline, perhaps CCP should adjust the balance problem with initial attribute distributions rather than making the characters' genome just another module to be changed.


That would certainly be another option, but I still thing that the best solution would be to introduce more Cha skills.

RisenPhoenix
Shadowyn Corp.
Posted - 2009.02.11 12:40:00 - [183]
 

Originally by: Isis Soryu
Originally by: RisenPhoenix
lol just another alt this keeps getting funnier, how many more you gonna use?

Paranoid aren't you. Laughing Do the alts scare you? Not that I care, feel free to look me up ingame.


already did I am really bored and I have alts that look less like alts than your "main" does so keep trying

Isis Soryu
Caldari
Universitas Interimo Research
Posted - 2009.02.11 12:44:00 - [184]
 

Edited by: Isis Soryu on 11/02/2009 13:11:12
Originally by: RisenPhoenix
Originally by: Isis Soryu
Originally by: RisenPhoenix
lol just another alt this keeps getting funnier, how many more you gonna use?

Paranoid aren't you. Laughing Do the alts scare you? Not that I care, feel free to look me up ingame.


already did I am really bored and I have alts that look less like alts than your "main" does so keep trying

Whatever you say, keep your paranoia to yourself and stop derailing the thread. More charisma related skills could indeed be a better solution but I don't know what skills they could add that would have it as a primary attribute. It would have to be an awful lot of skills for it ever to be worth putting points in charisma as it stands.

b1zz
Posted - 2009.02.11 13:42:00 - [185]
 

Originally by: Lord Berk
I agree with Rodj and the OP.

Although, this proposed change would greatly benefit one of my characters - for the greater good of the game it must not go through.

This opens a huge can of worms of respeccing and min-maxing. We've all made mistakes in character creation, that's part of the allure of EvE, we love it for being harsh. This is a game that rewards research, planning, patience and execution. Attribute respeccing has no place in the rules we as players currently abide by and begins the game's journey into catering to the WoW crowd.

An industrialist is primarily always an industrialist, as is a combat fighter, as is a CEO. They can do other stuff but it takes them longer. This was the original concept and it was brilliant.

Take a look at an MMO where this can done to the extreme - Guild Wars. Walk into a town, respec whatever you want for free. This takes away a sense of WHO YOU ARE as a character. Your name is irrelevant, all that matters is your build and how it benefits your group.

To also to appeal to CCP's business side, people stay in MMO's because they like their character. Like RL, getting through the hard stuff builds character and makes the end goal that much sweeter.

I'll say this again, we LIKE characters.

We hit Amarr and see the Veldnaught and know things are as they should be. The U'K's neverending war with the Empire, CVA's protection of Providence, the huge power blocs in 0.0, the list goes on. Yes, these things evolve, they change, but they do so naturally and as a result of our actions.

If we are able to respec attributes, in order to remain competitive, this is something everyone must do. If you do not, eventually you will fall behind those who do, because you believe your character is your character, not just a set of numbers.

o7 OP for standing up.




Agree with the above and the OP.

Attribute respec is dumbing the game down. This will be the first really big chunk out of Eve's uniqueness as an MMO AFAIK. It promotes laziness for one thing, removing any advantage you might get from actually investigating something before acting on it (an unbelievable concept I know!).

I like Eve because of its complexity. I like Eve because decisions you make have consequences that may affect you for years. I like Eve because the maxim 'knowledge is power' applies (or in other words the dumb and the lazy fail at Eve). This one change dilutes all these things.

Fingers crossed they don't impliment, or at least that 6 month thing, caw-blimey you've gotta be kidding me!

SiJira
Posted - 2009.02.11 16:04:00 - [186]
 

this idea is a bad fix to a initially bad introduction of bloodlines like achura

DrAtomic
Atomic Heroes
Chain of Chaos
Posted - 2009.02.11 17:05:00 - [187]
 

Edited by: DrAtomic on 11/02/2009 17:06:28
I totally fail to see why this is bad... Planning your skilltree ahead and adjusting your attribs accordingly will speed up skilltraining which is taking way too long anyway.

However it's not without danger in doing so, if you are 1 month in and decide you want to switch your plan you got have royally f-ed yourself.

Diversity will still be there, since multiple tactics are possible; i.e. optimised attribs for certain skillplan, optimise for industrial skills, pvp skills etc, or simply balance it all out. It actually allows you to handle your attributes strategicly where as before it was a newb decission that either worked out or didnt depending on your luck with character creation.

Edit: Do expect an added feature to evemon advising it with the most efficient skilltree based on your skillplan though.

Rodj Blake
Amarr
PIE Inc.
Posted - 2009.02.11 17:12:00 - [188]
 

Edited by: Rodj Blake on 11/02/2009 17:14:59
Edited by: Rodj Blake on 11/02/2009 17:12:10
Originally by: DrAtomic
Edited by: DrAtomic on 11/02/2009 17:06:28
I totally fail to see why this is bad... Planning your skilltree ahead and adjusting your attribs accordingly will speed up skilltraining which is taking way too long anyway.


That's your opinion and of course you're entitled to it. However, there are many people who don't think that training times are too long. The last thing the game needs is a situation where everybody can do everything, and long training times help prevent this.

Pearljammer 5657
Caldari
Last Exit.
Posted - 2009.02.11 17:13:00 - [189]
 

I support a one time change for current playerbase, and m10 noobs.

The Truckdriver
Minmatar
Posted - 2009.02.11 18:17:00 - [190]
 

I am also against the system for changing it every 6 months.

The first time should be free, after 6 months of playing. Every next time you switch it should be 50$. That would make people think before swapping their skills everyday.

Yakia TovilToba
Halliburton Inc.
Posted - 2009.02.11 18:56:00 - [191]
 

Originally by: Tippia
Since I'm horribly bored at work, I did some number crunching…

There are 1,913 ranks worth of skills in the game (ranks is the easiest short form for training time).

Of those:
166 use Cha as a primary (118) or secondary (48) attribute
991 use Int as a primary (851) or secondary (140) attribute
1061 use Mem as a primary (220) or secondary (841) attribute
819 use Per as a primary (604) or secondary (215) attribute
789 use Wil as a primary (120) or secondary (669) attriute

The Cha-based skills have an average rank of 2.9 (prim) or 3.7 (sec) — 3.1 over all.
The Int-based skills have an average rank of 6.3 (prim) or 2.6 (sec) — 5.2 over all.
The Mem-based skills have an average rank of 3.3 (prim) or 6.2 (sec) — 5.3 over all.
The Per-based skills have an average rank of 5.8 (prim) or 4.9 (sec) — 5.5 over all.
The Wil-based skills have an average rank of 6.0 (prim) or 5.6 (sec) — 5.6 over all.

The attribute combinations are distributed as follows:
Int/Mem: 813 ranks over 126 skills.
Per/Wil: 602 ranks over 103 skills.
Mem/Int: 104 ranks over 39 skills.
Wil/Per: 96 ranks over 15 skills.
Mem/Per: 76 ranks over 18 skills.
Cha/Wil: 67 ranks over 17 skills.
Mem/Cha: 40 ranks over 9 skills.
Int/Per: 38 ranks over 10 skills.
Cha/Mem: 26 ranks over 8 skills.
Cha/Int: 22 ranks over 14 skills.
Wil/Int: 14 ranks over 1 skill.
Wil/Cha: 8 ranks over 4 skills.
Cha/Per: 3 ranks over 1 skill.
Per/Mem: 2 ranks over 1 skill.
All other combinations: 0 skills.

Start your min/maxing, gentlemen (it should be quite easy)!

…also, I still maintain that it would be a far better solution to fix the utter uselessness and worthlessness of the Charisma attribute. That, and I probably missed some very important skills somewhere in my counting, but meh! Razz


Interesting numbers. I immediately stopped training my leadership skills with the achura char ..*cough* ... . Will max charisma to maxout the leadership and missing social skills in the first 6 monts, maybe paired with int/mem to get that support skills, and then everything on perc/wp - who needs +7 implants haha this makes it much faster and riskfree.

Khrillian
Minmatar
Infinitus Sapientia
Hav0k.
Posted - 2009.02.11 19:00:00 - [192]
 

Originally by: iudex
But being able to redistribute every 6 months changes the whole skill training pattern, which has been a successful core feature of Eve for over 5 years.
Now people will max one side for 6 months and then the other in the next 6 months. Everyone will be training everything at maximum speed and efficiency, no diffrence between the industrialist and the combat specialised pilot.



-People have always been able to make alts which are tailored to their skill training needs. How is that any better than having that option on a single character?

-The difference between the industrialist and the combat pilot is EXISTING SKILLS. What's the benefit of restricting future opportunities in EVE (by keeping attributes fixed)?

Jared D'Uroth
Minmatar
ElitistOps
Pandemic Legion
Posted - 2009.02.11 19:10:00 - [193]
 

Originally by: Khrillian
Originally by: iudex
But being able to redistribute every 6 months changes the whole skill training pattern, which has been a successful core feature of Eve for over 5 years.
Now people will max one side for 6 months and then the other in the next 6 months. Everyone will be training everything at maximum speed and efficiency, no diffrence between the industrialist and the combat specialised pilot.



-People have always been able to make alts which are tailored to their skill training needs. How is that any better than having that option on a single character?

-The difference between the industrialist and the combat pilot is EXISTING SKILLS. What's the benefit of restricting future opportunities in EVE (by keeping attributes fixed)?


It's not restricting them, it just makes it slower. As has been stated, this is a "dumbing down" of Eve. People should be stuck with the attributes they start with.

Dari Anoh
Amarr
Anoh Shavar
Posted - 2009.02.11 19:12:00 - [194]
 

*puts on tinfoil hat* Somehow I can just picture this conversation having taken place... Wink

CCP Developer #1: "We can't possibly put this out on Singularity, it's nowhere finished and full of bugs!"
CCP Developer #2: "Don't worry, I'll put in a decoy, they'll never notice the rest. Maybe something with attributes..."

Insa Rexion
Minmatar
Fumar Puede Matar
Posted - 2009.02.11 20:54:00 - [195]
 

Originally by: Alora Venoda
Originally by: Juwi Kotch
This is the first step onto the slippery slope so many originally good or not to bad MMOGs (UO, Starwars, etc) died on: Dumbing down the game.

I don't like that.

Juwi Kotch


"good" is a relative term. some may say that "old-school" game mechanics were too harsh, which kept them out of the game until it was dumbed down. there is a different between "depth" and "complexity". there is a difference between "stupidly annoying" and "harsh".

when such changes are made that appear to "dumb down" the game, often they are actually just making it more convenient. but when this includes changes to the game mechanics, the veterans start complaining "you noobs have it so easy now days... back when i was a noob... blah blah... 15 miles in the snow uphill while barefoot."


I am a 3 month player and even I can see a respec every 6 months is a bloody awful idea.

Quote:
the fact of the matter is that these changes make the game more enjoyable for everyone, but it's human nature to feel like the "more challenging" times (ie- less fun, more annoying) were "better" for some reason. this is most likely because we take pride in overcoming those challenges, where the new players don't even have the opportunity to do so. and once things are easier, we may feel like our accomplishments of the past are no longer meaningful or appreciated. we may find ourselves thinking, "dang if i just waited to start playing, i could have had it easy!"


on the flip side, some changes that "dumb down" some games really do ruin the experience. it could make the game "too easy" or "less fun"... to consider this, we must examine the impact on the game from the view of a new player and not a veteran.

as for the attribute respec, i think it's long overdue, and makes the game "less annoying" for everyone. in fact, because of the old ways, there's far more Caldari (esp Achura) characters than most other races and bloodlines. with the new system, players will be more free to select whatever race they want...

does anyone actually enjoy being stuck with whatever attributes we picked as noobs? no! more likely, we just resent the fact that we have come this far already and don't get a do-over...



yes but I don't think anyone disagrees with a one time respec, just a respec everry 6 months


Andreya
Red Federation
Posted - 2009.02.11 23:19:00 - [196]
 

Originally by: Florio
i agree with OP completely.

one off respec is necessary and we've been asking for it.

respec every 6 months makes a mockery of having attributes at all, and in addition imho may lead to higher noob attrition as they are told on the forums to maximise int/mem or perc/wp at the beginning and then are stuck with crap ship/weaponry or support/industrial skills for 6 months.

i'd be amazed if the current proposals make it to tranquility as surely the above points made by the op and others including myself are just common sense?



i agree. i love the idea of being able to respec.. BUT twice a year is too much, i myself and everyone else will be usuing that feature to its fullest extent... (which imo is a little silly)
HOWEVER, i do think being able to change 2 time during your career is perfect... one change to fix up my leadership and trade skills, then change back to normal pvp attributes... forever... im ok with that :P

Agrigan
Posted - 2009.02.11 23:29:00 - [197]
 

I would suggest the following:

in ISK:

1st respec = 1 x SP
2nd respec = 2 x SP
3rd respec = 4 x SP
4th respec = 8 x SP
and so on...

I believe this will solve everyone's problem, and still allow new players to experiment, and old players to respec.

Llyod Toad
Posted - 2009.02.12 09:04:00 - [198]
 

I could live with a one time respec, but every 6 months will ruin the game. I have been playing for a year and a half, 2 accounts, and since the news of a repec of attributes every 6 months, ive actually considered quitting.

I may be the minority of Leaving Eve, I dont care, Im not going to play a watered down game. I have better things to do, and the love of the game is what keeps me here. I dont know, this is kinda ****ed up just my 2 cents.

Ambien Torca
Posted - 2009.02.12 09:14:00 - [199]
 

Originally by: Rodj Blake
Edited by: Rodj Blake on 11/02/2009 17:14:59
Edited by: Rodj Blake on 11/02/2009 17:12:10
Originally by: DrAtomic
Edited by: DrAtomic on 11/02/2009 17:06:28
I totally fail to see why this is bad... Planning your skilltree ahead and adjusting your attribs accordingly will speed up skilltraining which is taking way too long anyway.


That's your opinion and of course you're entitled to it. However, there are many people who don't think that training times are too long. The last thing the game needs is a situation where everybody can do everything, and long training times help prevent this.


You can already do everything, just get alt/s and also as a bonus you train *x faster to your goal (and you can multitask on top of that). Some skills just take waaaay too long to train anyway, this boost doesn´t really allow one character to train everything anyway.

Gorefacer
Caldari
Resurrection
Gentlemen's Club
Posted - 2009.02.12 11:18:00 - [200]
 

I vote against the redistribution or for just a once a lifetime respec.

I haven't given a lot of thought about it but I like things the way they are and this is my knee jerk reaction.

Attributes and SP are fine the way they are in my opinion, don't mess with a good thing please.


chatgris
Quantum Cats Syndicate
Posted - 2009.02.12 11:27:00 - [201]
 

Even though as an Achura, I'll lose my 3 char edge, I am all for this. It allows people to change their focus, keeps the game fresh for those of us who don't want to have a second character if we want to do something different.

If I had known this was going to happen when I created my character, I could have actually created a bloodline for RP value and enjoyed the game more instead of just creating a bloodline so that I could get my skills to train faster. (Oh please a one time race switch would be great)

Respeccing your attributes every 6 months is just another way to min/max, one that takes some planning. There are still consequences for poor attribute choice/poor planning, but the consequences are NOT permanent, they are *only* for 6 months. And you know, 6 months is actually a fair chunk of time.

Xano Heroma
Minmatar
Republic University
Posted - 2009.02.12 11:37:00 - [202]
 

I agree with the OP (although I think after 3 months is too fast)

it shoeld only be a one-time-thing

I'l say earlist after 1 year of gametime..... no1 at the EVE-age of 3months have the experience and knowledge of EVE to make such a disission !

Mjoelnir Thorwulf
Royal East Eve Trading Company
Posted - 2009.02.12 11:42:00 - [203]
 

I agree with the OP, if you MUST, allow ONE attribute redistribution. People are already busy making 6 month training schemes and quite frankly, I am apalled how the future looks.


hcydo
Posted - 2009.02.12 12:09:00 - [204]
 

How about making it pricy? Let's say, 100M or 500M?

Cypher V
Minmatar
Critical Mass Technologies
Posted - 2009.02.12 12:20:00 - [205]
 

I have a high Cha attribute that I've used for all of maybe 1 week's training.

I don't want it, never have, and I've never been willing/able to get an alt.

This new system works for me, and 95% of EVE imo.

Thanks much.

ps. Bare in mind that the people that DON'T want this change will also be training just as fast as the people that do want it, it won't change the fact that you're ahead of them SP wise. ie: Stop whining.

Rodj Blake
Amarr
PIE Inc.
Posted - 2009.02.12 12:22:00 - [206]
 

Originally by: Cypher V


ps. Bare in mind that the people that DON'T want this change will also be training just as fast as the people that do want it, it won't change the fact that you're ahead of them SP wise. ie: Stop whining.


Agreed, it won't change the fact that I'm ahead of the noobs in SP terms. In fact, it will widen the gap.

Yet I'm still against it even though I'll be a major beneficiary of the change because I think that it will be bad for the game.

Malcanis
Caldari
Vanishing Point.
The Initiative.
Posted - 2009.02.12 13:46:00 - [207]
 

Foolish and ill-conceived tbh.

Why not just do away with attributes altogether?

Moonmonkey
Amarr
Orange Clover
Posted - 2009.02.12 14:14:00 - [208]
 

At first I liked the EVEs skill system but over time it becomes clear that the system is flawed. I mean I can start a new account and train up an alt without ever having to play it. I wish CCP had of gone for a UO type system in which you became more skilled by lets say flying a ship type or firing a weapon type. At the moment you set a 30+ day skill, sit around waiting for it to pop or go out side into the real world. They is nothing you can do to speed it up, maybe it would be better if the skill system and attributes were totaly change. Scrap the attributes all togetter or have them have a real in game effect. More dps or defence. Reduce skill training times so that no skill takes longer than a few days to learn. The skill system doesn't add to game play in any way.

Rodj Blake
Amarr
PIE Inc.
Posted - 2009.02.12 14:32:00 - [209]
 

Originally by: Moonmonkey
At first I liked the EVEs skill system but over time it becomes clear that the system is flawed. I mean I can start a new account and train up an alt without ever having to play it. I wish CCP had of gone for a UO type system in which you became more skilled by lets say flying a ship type or firing a weapon type. At the moment you set a 30+ day skill, sit around waiting for it to pop or go out side into the real world. They is nothing you can do to speed it up, maybe it would be better if the skill system and attributes were totaly change. Scrap the attributes all togetter or have them have a real in game effect. More dps or defence. Reduce skill training times so that no skill takes longer than a few days to learn. The skill system doesn't add to game play in any way.


In many ways, Eve's skills system is what differentiates it from the other MMOs out there.

Gambuk
Posted - 2009.02.12 14:43:00 - [210]
 

I dont see the huge problem with someone scheduling their next year ahead of themselves for training something and maxxing it out with a respec at the 6 month mark.

If I maxed my int/mem so I could do learning skills/eelctronics and whatnot for 6 whole months I am going to be a GIMP training anything else.

Want to try a new weapon? Well, have fun training for 3 weeks...

I dont see the problem.


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