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Rodj Blake
Amarr
PIE Inc.
Posted - 2009.02.11 11:43:00 - [151]
 

Edited by: Rodj Blake on 11/02/2009 11:43:40
Edited by: Rodj Blake on 11/02/2009 11:43:09
Quote:
Do you think people are going to just stack skills that use 2 attributes for 6 months at a time and stop playing the game where you train what you need to use or what?


As someone who has 95m SPs I'll be min/maxing every six months since I can do it whilst still playing the game.

However, someone on 5m SP will not be able to do it, and so will lose out compared to me.

And that's why it's a bad idea.


Digital Solaris
Posted - 2009.02.11 11:46:00 - [152]
 

Originally by: Rodj Blake

Originally by: Digital Solaris
I do agree with the OP that this looks like a NGE feature. But it boggles my mind as to why some people are finding it to be contributing factor to dumbing the game down?

It is not going to affect the game in any way than how spent attribute points can be redone twice a year and how much faster skills might finish. Plus if you don't want to use it, then don't.

How is that suddenly a bad thing for anyone playing EVE?


Because it increases the gap between new and old players while claiming to do the opposite perhaps?

Because it makes bloodlines completely irrelevant?


I disagree, because the gap between new and old that you are refering to, relates to experience, accumlated assets and SPs. Not attribute differences.

When was the bloodlines ever relevant, beside starting attributes and career choice? When CCP released RMR and the Achura bloodline along with it?

Yeshua Christ
Posted - 2009.02.11 11:46:00 - [153]
 

Edited by: Yeshua Christ on 11/02/2009 11:47:53
Originally by: Deva Blackfire
Quote:
Do you think people are going to just stack skills that use 2 attributes for 6 months at a time and stop playing the game where you train what you need to use or what?


Why should i stop playing? Ill stack per/will the 1st thing i do. It will enable me to get most weapon specs to lv5 and max missile skills + get caldari cruiser/BS lv5. At the time ill still fly old ships im skilled for. 70mil SP doesnt instantly vanish when you change attribs, ya know?

And in that case what does it matter anyway? No new character is ever going to catch you in SP anyway and people love to argue that this game isn't about SP but rather skill. You can't have it both ways. Even taking the SP matter most route then your still looking at gimped training for 6 months on any other skills that don't use those attributes. Say you re-spec 2 months before a major change hits the game and you need to train something else. Well looky here you just royally screwed yourself. It still balances out.

Digital Solaris
Posted - 2009.02.11 11:48:00 - [154]
 

Originally by: Rodj Blake

Quote:
Do you think people are going to just stack skills that use 2 attributes for 6 months at a time and stop playing the game where you train what you need to use or what?


As someone who has 95m SPs I'll be min/maxing every six months since I can do it whilst still playing the game.

However, someone on 5m SP will not be able to do it, and so will lose out compared to me.

And that's why it's a bad idea.




As Achura being the dominant choice for new subscribing players, I doubt that is going to happen.

Deva Blackfire
Viziam
Posted - 2009.02.11 11:50:00 - [155]
 

Edited by: Deva Blackfire on 11/02/2009 11:52:53
Originally by: Digital Solaris

I disagree, because the gap between new and old that you are refering to, relates to experience, accumlated assets and SPs. Not attribute differences.



Thats true, yet newbs whine most of the time that they cant "catch up" with SPs to older players (wheras they can buy ISK via GTC). This system will make gap even larger. New player needs to train multiple skills from multiple cattegories thus their stats need to be balanced. Older players with good skills all round can play min/maxing on stuff they want because what the NEED is already learned (within first 10-15mil sp). Thus newbie will get around 50-70% of SP vet will get.

Quote:
Say you re-spec 2 months before a major change hits the game and you need to train something else. Well looky here you just royally screwed yourself. It still balances out.


No, it means that you are stupid to respec 2 months before change. Plan accordingly, so you have skills ot train with set attribs (and there is plenty of per/will ones so its not a big problem). Respec AFTER every expansion (if you need) with another 6month skill plan in mind. If you have shorter skill plan respec balanced with per/will (as an example) being a bit above others.

Unless you are stupid like in your example you should be way ahead of average chars who need/want to train all round.

Rodj Blake
Amarr
PIE Inc.
Posted - 2009.02.11 11:53:00 - [156]
 

Originally by: Yeshua Christ
Edited by: Yeshua Christ on 11/02/2009 11:47:53
Originally by: Deva Blackfire
Quote:
Do you think people are going to just stack skills that use 2 attributes for 6 months at a time and stop playing the game where you train what you need to use or what?


Why should i stop playing? Ill stack per/will the 1st thing i do. It will enable me to get most weapon specs to lv5 and max missile skills + get caldari cruiser/BS lv5. At the time ill still fly old ships im skilled for. 70mil SP doesnt instantly vanish when you change attribs, ya know?

And in that case what does it matter anyway? No new character is ever going to catch you in SP anyway and people love to argue that this game isn't about SP but rather skill. You can't have it both ways. Even taking the SP matter most route then your still looking at gimped training for 6 months on any other skills that don't use those attributes. Say you re-spec 2 months before a major change hits the game and you need to train something else. Well looky here you just royally screwed yourself. It still balances out.


CCP traditionally go with six monthly deployment schedules (although there have been hints that this may change).

It's just a case of synching your min/maxing plan with the deployment dates of patches.

Yeshua Christ
Posted - 2009.02.11 11:54:00 - [157]
 

Edited by: Yeshua Christ on 11/02/2009 11:56:48
Originally by: Deva Blackfire
Originally by: Digital Solaris

I disagree, because the gap between new and old that you are refering to, relates to experience, accumlated assets and SPs. Not attribute differences.



Thats true, yet newbs whine most of the time that they cant "catch up" with SPs to older players (wheras they can buy ISK via GTC). This system will make gap even larger. New player needs to train multiple skills from multiple cattegories thus their stats need to be balanced. Older players with good skills all round can play min/maxing on stuff they want because what the NEED is already learned (within first 10-15mil sp). Thus newbie will get around 50-70% of SP vet will get.

I fail to see why this matters at all. They will never ever catch up anyway. That gap will always be there with skillpoints why does how big it gets make a bit of difference? I only have 22 million skillpoints on my oldest account, and I should have over 50 mil SP based on character age. I'll still never catch up to Rodj or anyone else with higher SP so why should I care how much further ahead these people get? SP does not equate to fun in this game.

Originally by: Rodj Blake
CCP traditionally go with six monthly deployment schedules (although there have been hints that this may change).

It's just a case of synching your min/maxing plan with the deployment dates of patches.

Tell this to all the nano-whiners.

Rodj Blake
Amarr
PIE Inc.
Posted - 2009.02.11 11:55:00 - [158]
 

Originally by: Digital Solaris
Originally by: Rodj Blake

Quote:
Do you think people are going to just stack skills that use 2 attributes for 6 months at a time and stop playing the game where you train what you need to use or what?


As someone who has 95m SPs I'll be min/maxing every six months since I can do it whilst still playing the game.

However, someone on 5m SP will not be able to do it, and so will lose out compared to me.

And that's why it's a bad idea.




As Achura being the dominant choice for new subscribing players, I doubt that is going to happen.


My base stats will be better for traning the skills that I'm improving than any Achura.

Rodj Blake
Amarr
PIE Inc.
Posted - 2009.02.11 11:56:00 - [159]
 

Originally by: Yeshua Christ
SP does not equate to fun in this game.


In which case, there's no need to have attribute repsecs, is there?

Digital Solaris
Posted - 2009.02.11 11:58:00 - [160]
 

Originally by: Rodj Blake
Originally by: Yeshua Christ
SP does not equate to fun in this game.


In which case, there's no need to have attribute repsecs, is there?


For Gallente there is. Twisted Evil

Yeshua Christ
Posted - 2009.02.11 11:59:00 - [161]
 

Edited by: Yeshua Christ on 11/02/2009 12:02:17
Originally by: Rodj Blake
Originally by: Yeshua Christ
SP does not equate to fun in this game.


In which case, there's no need to have attribute repsecs, is there?

But herein is the difference, I'm not arguing against it or for it. I don't care what CCP does with attribute respecs. My attributes are even across the board from character birthand the only reason I will ever use the Respec at all is to lower my charisma. If they ever introduce Char related skills I need to train then I will put my attributes right back where they are now. (22,24,22,24,22)

Si Raven
Posted - 2009.02.11 12:01:00 - [162]
 

Originally by: Yeshua Christ
Edited by: Yeshua Christ on 11/02/2009 11:37:42
What you and everyone who brings this argument to bear fail to realize is that in doing so you completely gimp yourself if you want to train any other skills than your min max attributes. Do you think people are going to just stack skills that use 2 attributes for 6 months at a time and stop playing the game where you train what you need to use or what?


A newb might gimp itself but I have plenty of skills. I can easily max my Per/Wil for 12 months and not regret it. I'm sure I can find 6 months of training for any attribute change I make and when I can't, I'll balance them. And Iím not that worried if I donít take advantage of new features as soon as they come out.

The new T3 skills are only rank 1 and don't seem to give any benefit. I can afford to spend a few days training them to 3/4 and not regret my attribute choice.

I think there should be a limit to how many points each attribute can be changed from the race's base. Not how it is currently, that each race can be increased to the same value.

I agree, 5M isk is nothing.

Rennion
Posted - 2009.02.11 12:02:00 - [163]
 

I dont have a problem with it at all and this is coming from a min/maxed achura *****.

Being able to switch around your attributes promotes diversity it does not lower it. I will be able to pump up my charisma to finally train leadership and gang skills, miners will have a lower barrier to entry if they want to become combat pilots etc..

Everyone may have a hard on for there ability to pump perc/will but there are those of us out there who are dripping at the thought of finally being able to pump up charisma and max out leadership skills too.

Yeshua Christ
Posted - 2009.02.11 12:06:00 - [164]
 

Edited by: Yeshua Christ on 11/02/2009 12:06:22
Originally by: Si Raven
Originally by: Yeshua Christ
Edited by: Yeshua Christ on 11/02/2009 11:37:42
What you and everyone who brings this argument to bear fail to realize is that in doing so you completely gimp yourself if you want to train any other skills than your min max attributes. Do you think people are going to just stack skills that use 2 attributes for 6 months at a time and stop playing the game where you train what you need to use or what?


A newb might gimp itself but I have plenty of skills. I can easily max my Per/Wil for 12 months and not regret it. I'm sure I can find 6 months of training for any attribute change I make and when I can't, I'll balance them. And Iím not that worried if I donít take advantage of new features as soon as they come out.

The new T3 skills are only rank 1 and don't seem to give any benefit. I can afford to spend a few days training them to 3/4 and not regret my attribute choice.

I think there should be a limit to how many points each attribute can be changed from the race's base. Not how it is currently, that each race can be increased to the same value.

I agree, 5M isk is nothing.

Again why does this matter? Your always going to be ahead of the new characters anyway. So you can afford to min max for a year, good for you then you can get into your stuff that much faster. Hope that CCP doesn't drop the nerf bomb on you after you re-spec and turn your min/max against you.

Evocationz
Amarr
N7 Corporation
Project Unconquerable
Posted - 2009.02.11 12:06:00 - [165]
 

The term i think of when thinking about the OP is W A N K A

L046
ZC Industries
Posted - 2009.02.11 12:08:00 - [166]
 

Its a great change, i have 5 accounts and all need charisma taking away. my industrial alts now fully trained in industry and leadership skills can now become the pvp skill training gods i always wanted, TY CCP

Rodj Blake
Amarr
PIE Inc.
Posted - 2009.02.11 12:12:00 - [167]
 

Edited by: Rodj Blake on 11/02/2009 12:12:46
Originally by: Yeshua Christ

Again why does this matter? Your always going to be ahead of the new characters anyway. So you can afford to min max for a year, good for you then you can get into your stuff that much faster. Hope that CCP doesn't drop the nerf bomb on you after you re-spec and turn your min/max against you.


It's a common complaint among noobs that the vets train faster than them. Such things are important to a lot of people.

The changes will only increase the difference in training speed.

As for the nerf bomb, the effects won't be that great. And if they are, everyone will moan and CCP will cave in as they always do these days and it will be sorted. They'll probably sort it out by making the game even more "mainstream" and allowing SP repecs.

Yeshua Christ
Posted - 2009.02.11 12:15:00 - [168]
 

Originally by: Rodj Blake
Edited by: Rodj Blake on 11/02/2009 12:12:46
Originally by: Yeshua Christ

Again why does this matter? Your always going to be ahead of the new characters anyway. So you can afford to min max for a year, good for you then you can get into your stuff that much faster. Hope that CCP doesn't drop the nerf bomb on you after you re-spec and turn your min/max against you.


It's a common complaint among noobs that the vets train faster than them. Such things are important to a lot of people.

The changes will only increase the difference in training speed.

As for the nerf bomb, the effects won't be that great. And if they are, everyone will moan and CCP will cave in as they always do these days and it will be sorted. They'll probably sort it out by making the game even more "mainstream" and allowing SP repecs.

Here is the thing, CCP will never ever nerf the vets training speed or increase the noobs training speed to ever catch the vets. If they did all the vets would sh*t a giant brick and these forums would collapse from all the whines. Noobies will just have to live with the gap like I did when I started the game. I doubt CCP will ever allow SP respecs, but if that does happen then they can kiss the current playbase goodbye. I think they know this and will steer clear of it.

Blindscythe
Posted - 2009.02.11 12:16:00 - [169]
 

Originally by: Rodj Blake
Edited by: Rodj Blake on 11/02/2009 12:12:46
Originally by: Yeshua Christ

Again why does this matter? Your always going to be ahead of the new characters anyway. So you can afford to min max for a year, good for you then you can get into your stuff that much faster. Hope that CCP doesn't drop the nerf bomb on you after you re-spec and turn your min/max against you.


It's a common complaint among noobs that the vets train faster than them. Such things are important to a lot of people.

The changes will only increase the difference in training speed.

As for the nerf bomb, the effects won't be that great. And if they are, everyone will moan and CCP will cave in as they always do these days and it will be sorted. They'll probably sort it out by making the game even more "mainstream" and allowing SP repecs.


No-no... shhhh don't mention SP respecs! Arghh

Rodj Blake
Amarr
PIE Inc.
Posted - 2009.02.11 12:21:00 - [170]
 

Edited by: Rodj Blake on 11/02/2009 12:21:01
Originally by: Yeshua Christ
I doubt CCP will ever allow SP respecs, but if that does happen then they can kiss the current playbase goodbye. I think they know this and will steer clear of it.


People used to say that CCP would never introduce skill queues.

People used to say that CCP would never introduce attribute respecs.

There's lots of things that people thought that CCP would never do, but they did.

Never say never again.

It was also said that players would quit in their droves after the stacking nerf, after the drone nerf, after the ghost training nerf, after the speed nerf and let's face it, after pretty much every other major nerf. Didn't quite work out that way, did it?

Brazero
Amarr
Noble House
Posted - 2009.02.11 12:23:00 - [171]
 

Originally by: Dani SP
make it like this:

- 1st time: free
- 2nd and sucesive times: 30Ä/$ or 2bil ISK


Sounds like a plan, but I would remove the $/Ä thing and make it 20bill isk Cool

This new attrib thing doesn't really interest me, I'm pretty much done with skills and such, and I like my attribs Shocked

RisenPhoenix
Shadowyn Corp.
Posted - 2009.02.11 12:24:00 - [172]
 

Just ignore Yeshua Christ guys hes the worst kind of moronic alt troll.

Yeshua Christ
Posted - 2009.02.11 12:26:00 - [173]
 

Originally by: Rodj Blake
Edited by: Rodj Blake on 11/02/2009 12:21:01
Originally by: Yeshua Christ
I doubt CCP will ever allow SP respecs, but if that does happen then they can kiss the current playbase goodbye. I think they know this and will steer clear of it.


People used to say that CCP would never introduce skill queues.

People used to say that CCP would never introduce attribute respecs.

There's lots of things that people thought that CCP would never do, but they did.

Never say never again.

It was also said that players would quit in their droves after the stacking nerf, after the drone nerf, after the ghost training nerf, after the speed nerf and let's face it, after pretty much every other major nerf. Didn't quite work out that way, did it?


No but none of those changes would essentially turn this game into WoW in space. SP respec would pretty much universally **** off everyone at once not just one subset of users. Completely negates SP at all, might as well just give every Character the ability to use everything from the start.

Tippia
Caldari
Sunshine and Lollipops
Posted - 2009.02.11 12:27:00 - [174]
 

Since I'm horribly bored at work, I did some number crunching…

There are 1,913 ranks worth of skills in the game (ranks is the easiest short form for training time).

Of those:
166 use Cha as a primary (118) or secondary (48) attribute
991 use Int as a primary (851) or secondary (140) attribute
1061 use Mem as a primary (220) or secondary (841) attribute
819 use Per as a primary (604) or secondary (215) attribute
789 use Wil as a primary (120) or secondary (669) attriute

The Cha-based skills have an average rank of 2.9 (prim) or 3.7 (sec) — 3.1 over all.
The Int-based skills have an average rank of 6.3 (prim) or 2.6 (sec) — 5.2 over all.
The Mem-based skills have an average rank of 3.3 (prim) or 6.2 (sec) — 5.3 over all.
The Per-based skills have an average rank of 5.8 (prim) or 4.9 (sec) — 5.5 over all.
The Wil-based skills have an average rank of 6.0 (prim) or 5.6 (sec) — 5.6 over all.

The attribute combinations are distributed as follows:
Int/Mem: 813 ranks over 126 skills.
Per/Wil: 602 ranks over 103 skills.
Mem/Int: 104 ranks over 39 skills.
Wil/Per: 96 ranks over 15 skills.
Mem/Per: 76 ranks over 18 skills.
Cha/Wil: 67 ranks over 17 skills.
Mem/Cha: 40 ranks over 9 skills.
Int/Per: 38 ranks over 10 skills.
Cha/Mem: 26 ranks over 8 skills.
Cha/Int: 22 ranks over 14 skills.
Wil/Int: 14 ranks over 1 skill.
Wil/Cha: 8 ranks over 4 skills.
Cha/Per: 3 ranks over 1 skill.
Per/Mem: 2 ranks over 1 skill.
All other combinations: 0 skills.

Start your min/maxing, gentlemen (it should be quite easy)!

…also, I still maintain that it would be a far better solution to fix the utter uselessness and worthlessness of the Charisma attribute. That, and I probably missed some very important skills somewhere in my counting, but meh! Razz

Yeshua Christ
Posted - 2009.02.11 12:27:00 - [175]
 

Originally by: RisenPhoenix
Just ignore Yeshua Christ guys hes the worst kind of moronic alt troll.

Aww did I p*ss in your coffee today?

Rodj Blake
Amarr
PIE Inc.
Posted - 2009.02.11 12:29:00 - [176]
 

Edited by: Rodj Blake on 11/02/2009 12:29:05
Originally by: Yeshua Christ
Originally by: Rodj Blake
Edited by: Rodj Blake on 11/02/2009 12:21:01
Originally by: Yeshua Christ
I doubt CCP will ever allow SP respecs, but if that does happen then they can kiss the current playbase goodbye. I think they know this and will steer clear of it.


People used to say that CCP would never introduce skill queues.

People used to say that CCP would never introduce attribute respecs.

There's lots of things that people thought that CCP would never do, but they did.

Never say never again.

It was also said that players would quit in their droves after the stacking nerf, after the drone nerf, after the ghost training nerf, after the speed nerf and let's face it, after pretty much every other major nerf. Didn't quite work out that way, did it?


No but none of those changes would essentially turn this game into WoW in space. SP respec would pretty much universally **** off everyone at once not just one subset of users. Completely negates SP at all, might as well just give every Character the ability to use everything from the start.


Please don't say that SP respecs would turn Eve into WoW in space - CCP's accountants might be reading this!

RisenPhoenix
Shadowyn Corp.
Posted - 2009.02.11 12:29:00 - [177]
 

Originally by: Yeshua Christ
Originally by: RisenPhoenix
Just ignore Yeshua Christ guys hes the worst kind of moronic alt troll.

Aww did I p*ss in your coffee today?


nope you've given me much lulz today and I thank you for that

Isis Soryu
Caldari
Universitas Interimo Research
Posted - 2009.02.11 12:30:00 - [178]
 

Edited by: Isis Soryu on 11/02/2009 12:30:53
Originally by: RisenPhoenix
Originally by: Yeshua Christ
Originally by: RisenPhoenix
Just ignore Yeshua Christ guys hes the worst kind of moronic alt troll.

Aww did I p*ss in your coffee today?


nope you've given me much lulz today and I thank you for that

Your very welcome. I aim to please. Laughing

And just to be clear yes this is my main.

Noriko Rei
Venture Racing
Posted - 2009.02.11 12:32:00 - [179]
 

I don't have a problem living with the choices I made when I created my character. Like a real person, there are some areas where I have natural talent to train faster and others where I'm not so sharp. Attributes represent the latent ability your character was born with, and allowing people to change those things as the mood strikes them to ensure that they're always adept at whatever is necessary for training is contrary to any sense of verisimilitude in the EVE universe.

Out here in the real world, I'm a smart fellow, so picking up academic skills is no trouble at all, but I wasn't particularly blessed by the gene pool physically, so the Marine Corps was a serious challenge. Would it have been wonderful if I could respec my DNA every 6 months to always be a prodigy in whatever endeavor I please? Sure. Such a desire, however, is better left to fantasy than reality for many of the practical reasons already mentioned, as well as the reality factor of the choices we make in creating our characters having a meaningful impact on the game.

If Achura is such an overpowered bloodline, perhaps CCP should adjust the balance problem with initial attribute distributions rather than making the characters' genome just another module to be changed.

RisenPhoenix
Shadowyn Corp.
Posted - 2009.02.11 12:33:00 - [180]
 

Originally by: Isis Soryu
Edited by: Isis Soryu on 11/02/2009 12:30:53
Originally by: RisenPhoenix
Originally by: Yeshua Christ
Originally by: RisenPhoenix
Just ignore Yeshua Christ guys hes the worst kind of moronic alt troll.

Aww did I p*ss in your coffee today?


nope you've given me much lulz today and I thank you for that

Your very welcome. I aim to please. Laughing

And just to be clear yes this is my main.


lol just another alt this keeps getting funnier, how many more you gonna use?


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