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Casiella Truza
Ecliptic Rift
Posted - 2009.02.10 21:05:00 - [91]
 

Originally by: Havus Mauth
You're continuing to develop the Transgaming tech for the Mac client yet peridoically testing the exact same thing out on a Linux system is too much effort? Thats such poppy****. Shame on you, this had to be like a dozen man hours a month.


Since Cider and Cedega are different, and QA takes way more than three hours a week to test something this complex, I'm going have to go head and just say you're wrong.

I'll re-iterate my hope that, at a minimum, CCP can choose to at least support the Wine project financially and continue to code for correctness (i.e. to standards).

Sevarus James
Minmatar
Meridian Dynamics
Posted - 2009.02.10 23:50:00 - [92]
 

Edited by: Sevarus James on 10/02/2009 23:51:02
Edited by: Sevarus James on 10/02/2009 23:50:30
Originally by: Serenity Steele
Thanks for a good blog.

It was good because although it was not a nice message to bring, you were transparent in the reasoning behind it, the reasoning behind it was sound (growth in usage, complexity of maintenance, better allocation of staff), and you gave people a month to work out how to deal with it.

Not a happy thing for Linux, but a definite improvement in communication.


This would have been fine, save for the fact that for the last 8 months CCP has said NOTHING to the linux community in the forums or elsewhere. Not a thing. At FANFEST they talked up the LINUX/MAC PREMIUM beta, admitted the problems that transgaming was having, and yet....not a hint of this situation.

As has been indicated, they are using bad metrics to gauge the linux users. (notice I said LINUX users, not "official client" users. If they had, they would have had metrics to get feedback from us as to WHY THE HELL we weren't using the official client.

Of course if they had just followed the threads in the linux section closely or even not so closely they would have seen that the official client was junk.

We in the linux community are back to where we were prior to this 'cedega deal' with Transgaming. As wine currently runs EVE very well, the only thing we can hope for is that they leave us our forum section to continue to support each other.

Current testing shows that the apocrapha build on sisi works under wine with glitches, so this major change coming may not even have a bad effect on the linux users. As wine updates come every 2 weeks fixing and improving things at a torrential pace, I'm not concerned by CCP's move.

I am also not really concerned that much about the lack of communications up to this point. Having been here since the opening bell, I've seen CCP selectively communicate, so this is nothing new. (I made a post in the linux section a couple weeks ago that predicted this move as a matter o' fact, and I was pretty much spot on the money.)



Draco Argen
Posted - 2009.02.11 03:09:00 - [93]
 

Originally by: Serenity Steele
Thanks for a good blog.

It was good because although it was not a nice message to bring, you were transparent in the reasoning behind it, the reasoning behind it was sound (growth in usage, complexity of maintenance, better allocation of staff), and you gave people a month to work out how to deal with it.

Not a happy thing for Linux, but a definite improvement in communication.


It is an improvement in communication, from zero admittedly, but i'm not going to pelt the guy with tomato's because he spoke up. CCP staff appear to be very, very tentative and cautious towards these forums and the Linux community. A bit of frankness goes a long way. Anyway side point.

What I was quoting about was the slight glitch in the "1 month to sort it out". Unfortunately the termination hits Apocrypha, which means as our support stops, wine gets the biggest patch smooshed into it that eve has had, ever. (1 gig SISI patch is a hellofa thing). Fortunately we've got a glimpse onto SISI, which gives the Wine team and us as players a chance to view/test something. Albeit a very hodge podge demo of Apoc.
For those that haven't followed other threads, wine is having mixed success on SISI with Apoc. SISi has gone down again this eve and probably being upgraded from the mass of testing data they will have gathered. I didn't even get to undock personally lol, but the skill que looks perfect.
All i can suggest is update your GFX drivers (New stuff being required in Apoc for GFX i think), update wine. Give it a try.

Also, as harsh as the comments they gave about the usage of the official client sounds, and as much as it sounds like "linux is a minority naff off"; It's been pointed out several times by CCP staff that they "chose their words carefully". They know there are lots of us. Not exactly how many, I bet, but they aren't going to make anything special for wine :( At least not publicly. They have killed the Trans G client we hated. (although i personally didn't). I think we can stop harping on about their detection methods. Their stats told them to kill Cedega for linux. So they did. They dont appear to be interested in whos using wine, because were not using anything special on it that they need to change.

Just sucks that instead of saying "Were moving forward. Gonna let you try wine. Abandoning the Cider version. Hope it works. Will try our best to keep it working for you, but we might break it occasionally" they've given us a break up letter, after some false hope and lots of silence.

Wine offers the potential of one codebase, given a careful dev touch. But would have been nice to have a teeny bit of QA testing done by CCP. Costly as it is. To at leasts give a heads up for wine team. It's throwing a large number of user accounts (as were quickly establishing) into the hands of some complete strangers to CCP (ie wine dev team).

In future I hope to set up community leason with CCP to give us some channels to discuss things. I know wine has outdone Trans G, and has screwed the uptake of the official client. And that wine isn't really a reliable entity that CCP can contractually bind to. But a bit of chatter or heads up that the new patch X uses super funky DX option Y and will screw wine in all probability, would be fantastic.

Sorry for trolling about this peeps. Lot of passion behind this one :P

Solbright
Advanced Security And Asset Protection
Posted - 2009.02.11 11:29:00 - [94]
 

Originally by: Draco Argen
... wine gets the biggest patch smooshed into it that eve has had, ever. (1 gig SISI patch is a hellofa thing).

Off topic comment: I'm feeling that CCP is getting large amounts coding done at the moment. I was woken up by the speed they achieved the performance fixes in Quantum Rise. These went a long way to fixing some very old client side issues. Whoever did that work is truly a hero imho.

Quote:
I know wine has outdone Trans G, and has screwed the uptake of the official client. And that wine isn't really a reliable entity that CCP can contractually bind to.

Codeweavers is commercial. So, it's not an impossible situation for CCP.


Glen Morange
Posted - 2009.02.11 17:26:00 - [95]
 

Originally by: CCP Fallout
CCP Whisper has published a new dev blog outlining the upcoming status change of our Linux client: chiefly, we will no longer support the client. Please be sure to read the blog to find out all the details, as well as how you can still play EVE on Linux.

Please note: we are not ending support of the Mac client.


Just as a sanity check, (which is implied by the suggestion of wine) CCP will not be brushing off GM tickets or issue reports (my Drake was just hit by a rocket for 3 billion damage, this might need some looking into) just because of the use of wine? Or worse yet, account bannings due to running "unapproved software" or some such.

Will CCP be informally testing with wine (one guy, over lunch, making sure nothing horrible happens)? I don't really worry about the intense performance testing that the windows builds get, but it is nice to know that someone is glancing at the Linux side.

Baeryn
Sol Enterprises
Posted - 2009.02.11 20:48:00 - [96]
 

While I don't use the official Linux client for EVE (I play using the Windows version), I must say that CCP continues to disappoint me on this venture.

The official developers of Wine would be more than happy to assign someone to make sure EVE's binaries work natively within Wine (NOT using Cedega). It would be trivial to associate work hours with this project and crush the bugs in the Windows version of EVE Online, for the betterment of all players.

Norden Kor
Posted - 2009.02.11 21:45:00 - [97]
 

Originally by: Havus Mauth
You're continuing to develop the Transgaming tech for the Mac client yet peridoically testing the exact same thing out on a Linux system is too much effort? Thats such poppy****. Shame on you, this had to be like a dozen man hours a month.


As someone stated before, it's not the exact same product. Also, there will be far more variation in software, drivers, and hardware for Linux users than there will be for Mac users, making testing more difficult and time consuming.

Even more importantly, you are forgetting that Cedega is not free to CCP. It has it's own cost over and above the cost of developing EVE itself. Add to that the fact that Linux market share overall is tiny compared to that of Windows and even the Mac. Licensing Cedega technology and enlisting Transgaming support to make the client available to that tiny number of users by comparison just doesn't make business sense. CCP has every right to cut their losses and keep their business successful.

Tasko Pal
Aliastra
Posted - 2009.02.12 05:12:00 - [98]
 

I am one of the few people still using the Cedega client. Sheer laziness has kept me from switching to Wine, a condition that is about to be rectified. However, if Eve should stop working under Wine, then I would stop playing Eve altogether. I do not use a Windows machine for gaming. My take however is that CCP would have to screw up greatly to lose Wine compatibility.

Technomagez
Gallente
Posted - 2009.02.12 05:30:00 - [99]
 

Originally by: kakmonstret
But there was hope for that one day we would have a official client that worked.

As some others have said please don't remove the Linux part of the forum!



sums my thoughts up pretty good.

mrkaczor
Minmatar
Grey Toxic Sword
Inver Brass
Posted - 2009.02.12 09:03:00 - [100]
 

I hope CCP and DEVs will make some statement about that, until then we have to make this topic live. Maybe they finally realize that they estimation of linux community was wrong and underestimated.

Sevarus James
Minmatar
Meridian Dynamics
Posted - 2009.02.12 09:30:00 - [101]
 

Originally by: mrkaczor
I hope CCP and DEVs will make some statement about that, until then we have to make this topic live. Maybe they finally realize that they estimation of linux community was wrong and underestimated.


Earlier in the thread as well as a few locked threads elsewhere CCP indicated that they are monitoring this.

I add my voice (again) for a continuation of the linux section as a place where we can continue to help each other and provide feedback on the OS platform we choose to run EVE on.

Par'Gellen
Gallente
Neon Cranium
Posted - 2009.02.12 13:14:00 - [102]
 

Excellent news! Thank you for not wasting any more time on Linux!

Hegbard
Posted - 2009.02.12 19:01:00 - [103]
 

Originally by: Luke S
now unless you want CCP to be like Blizzard and take a look at your computer with out you knowing, by all means join WoW.


Did you know that the EVE client is reading the memory of your computer?

Kandrew Dorak
Gallente
The Graduates
Morsus Mihi
Posted - 2009.02.12 23:06:00 - [104]
 

Thanks for the update, Whisper. Nice to see an honest post by the devs. I grow weary of the deception I've seen in other posts.

Debeus
Amarr
Princeps Corp
Atlas Alliance
Posted - 2009.02.13 07:41:00 - [105]
 

I'm not really surprised by this move. First, there was never a real "Linux client", what you did was package the Classic client with Cedega.

I don't know the details or advantages of doing this, but fact is the cedega part of the bundle got outdated pretty quickly (and Cedega is in turn a fork of an outdated wine), which did not work with "premium" graphics. You also want to get rid of "classic", so the outcome is clear.

Plus, it is a support nightmare. Well you can change/fix your own program, but not Cedega's. Cedega is not free open source to begin with... So you chained yourselves to them, and they failed, this was bound to happen.

Now the real solution was suggested to you many times: "Develop a native client". Yes, you might need to hire some people for that, but was it better than paying Cedega and not getting results (and no control) in the end?.

For this you have two choices:

No 1, do yourselves what Cedega was supposed to do, but instead use the power of Open Source in your favor: Bundle your windows client with Wine. You can patch Wine all you want, and give back those changes back to the community, if they are good, they will find their way into the main Wine branch, and everyone benefits. This is impossible with the closed source Cedega model.

No 2, more classy, maybe more or less work, i don't know... Release an OpenGL/SDL client. You have the source, you can do this.

Wine actually does this for you in realtime, but its translations are not always complete, so you have to check things when changing/improving.

You can do either and not offer official support to reduce costs. Just release and label them "unsupported". This community is very strong, and as you can see in the Wine thread, can support themselves if given the tools (eg: the forum). If you take the resources not spent in support, and instead use them to smokescreen test and maybe fix/patch things so it works good with wine (or if you pick option 2, distro testing), well even better.

You are catering to a geek audience, I'm seeing your ads at /. I think you should consider these things. This game is complex and harsh, similar to the challenge of using an alternative OS, so this is the type of people more willing to stay and keep up with the pain.

Also remember if you go with option No 2, you might find a chance to port the client to non traditional platforms, such as consoles (not just Microsoft's). Since you want to retail, why not retail there too? It'll also solve MacOS X.

citral23
Posted - 2009.02.13 10:10:00 - [106]
 

Originally by: Luke S
Now, if you guys used the OFFICIAL client, you would not have this problem.


Could you actually post anything useful instead of trolling and insulting around ?

mrkaczor
Minmatar
Grey Toxic Sword
Inver Brass
Posted - 2009.02.13 12:10:00 - [107]
 

Edited by: mrkaczor on 13/02/2009 12:10:37
True, lets do something about that:

http://myeve.eve-online.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=997887

Draco Argen
Posted - 2009.02.13 20:30:00 - [108]
 

Originally by: Par'Gellen
Excellent news! Thank you for not wasting any more time on Linux!

I honestly don't know what to say to that. Not even worth a flame lol.
Unless it was pure Sarcasm, X up to hunt and kill Par'Gellen with ships named after Linux Distros lol
Twisted Evil


StinGer ShoGuN
Pragmatic Kernel
Posted - 2009.02.14 01:51:00 - [109]
 

I won't repeat what has been said before about OpenGL, Wine emulation, OpenSource and the Open community, but I would like to react to one point.

In the news, when Whisper says "However we have not seen any similar growth in the numbers using our Linux client.", this is not an argument to stop here. As some people said before, we were obtaining better results using Wine. If you wanted players to use the Linux client, you should have continue on coding a true real client which could provide similar results than the emulations with Wine or else. And then you would have seen a significant growth !

For coding programs compatible with the 3 OSes, I know how hard it is to build something that works correctly everywhere. But this is not stopping me, I keep going on.

Now you've chosen Windows©, it's your choice. But don't be shocked if you see reverse engineering in EvE to make it more Linux compliant: this is freedom at all costs (yeah, I'm Gallentean... :D ) for those who don't want to pay for Windows©.

Kagura Nikon
Minmatar
Emptiness.
Posted - 2009.02.14 10:05:00 - [110]
 

Must say that is this happened, is not due to lack of linux users interest on eve. Is due to complete failure of ccp on providing a decent client for linux.

Starting by developing the new trinity engine in DX when they knew they wanted to support other operating systems. Poor choices, lazy uninformed developers or just dumb managers.

Traderboz
SlaveMart
Posted - 2009.02.14 21:29:00 - [111]
 

I'm not completely shocked to see this news, but hopefully they will at least do some basic testing with wine in the future so as not to completely alienate the linux players. I can understand them not wanting to guarantee compatibility with wine, since they don't have control of future wine changes, but some basic testing to try and keep the client working with wine would be appreciated I'm sure.

JimBob Leeroy
Posted - 2009.02.15 04:44:00 - [112]
 

there are so many Linux users in this game it is not funny, most used Linux before support was there, and will probably after,but i would bet that there are more Linux users than mac,lets be honest. you don't want to spend time and money on something that will be done by most with out your support. only those that are new to Linux will suffer. and no other web site cares about them, why should you.

Corwain
Posted - 2009.02.15 21:10:00 - [113]
 

Another guy that uses Wine to run EVE Premium here. Works damn well too. Well anyhow, if EVE doesn't work on Wine with the update I'll just take a break, spend the $45 a mo that my 3 accounts cost me and buy something else.

This is a shame and it discourages me that Wine users weren't even taken into account, but that CCP employees don't seem to get that people only use Wine because the official client didn't work. I could never get it to give me anything but a black box in the middle of my screen.

Becka Call
Posted - 2009.02.15 21:27:00 - [114]
 

Originally by: Kagura Nikon
Must say that is this happened, is not due to lack of linux users interest on eve. Is due to complete failure of ccp on providing a decent client for linux.

Starting by developing the new trinity engine in DX when they knew they wanted to support other operating systems. Poor choices, lazy uninformed developers or just dumb managers.


More likely short sighted; they started before they knew they wanted to support other operating systems.

On a side note: CCP is beholden to Microsoft in several very big ways. Most of their technology from the server to the client is based not on any standard but on Microsoft's proprietary code. If MS decides to kill CCP to help a competitor, then EVE will be dead 3 months later.

Sevarus James
Minmatar
Meridian Dynamics
Posted - 2009.02.16 04:35:00 - [115]
 

Originally by: Becka Call

On a side note: CCP is beholden to Microsoft in several very big ways. Most of their technology from the server to the client is based not on any standard but on Microsoft's proprietary code. If MS decides to kill CCP to help a competitor, then EVE will be dead 3 months later.


That is patently ridiculous. EVE's backbone has been and for the foreseeable future will be Python. This is open source and not under any sort of control by MS. If MS were to do what you say, CCP has PAID for the hardware. They have PAID for the software licenses, and you cannot just wave a magic wand and make that go away.

If MS support were withdrawn, CCP would most likely (especially for the ongoing HCP project), switch over to AIX or Linux as the underpinning, as they are ALSO partners with IBM, and as IBM is a direct competitor to Microsoft, my bet is they would JUMP at the chance to have CCP become a flagship customer.

MS is just a vendor that CCP is using, and that is their choice. Even without support from MS, CCP has a full staff of programmers that create the code they use, and after watching some of the fanfest material, I'm quite sure they are more than capable of "adjusting" as new situations arise, (and as a dev at fanfest mentioned quite clearly, many of them would have no issues WHATSOEVER switching over to OpenGL if that became a necessity.)


Statements like that are not constructive in a thread that we "know" CCP is watching. Lets keep it on track, eh?


Draco Argen
Posted - 2009.02.16 06:40:00 - [116]
 

Edited by: Draco Argen on 16/02/2009 06:45:37
Edited by: Draco Argen on 16/02/2009 06:44:55
That is patently ridiculous. EVE's backbone has been and for the foreseeable future will be Python. This is open source and not under any sort of control by MS. If MS were to do what you say, CCP has PAID for the hardware. They have PAID for the software licenses, and you cannot just wave a magic wand and make that go away.
<Clipped/>
Statements like that are not constructive in a thread that we "know" CCP is watching. Lets keep it on track, eh?




One word, ASP. :S

Many more words:
Although CCP seem to have chosen lots of MS based products, ASP for the website, DX for the GL, Windows for the client, (.Net for new patcher!?) they are no more dependent on or under threat from MS than a Truck driver is from Ford.


I agree with Sev, moving on;

Our merry band of *nix brothers seem to be moving a installer checking script along. I've yet to test it but it's a promising way of getting newblets auto checked into the correct state for Wine to work. (Providing it will work at all)

I Personally am working overtime to try and guide lost souls into using Wine in the forum. It's mildly the****utic. (lol at the auto ***s for ther.a.p.e.utic)

SISI testing is causing mix results, and without CCP's help were gonna be fumbling a little in the dark every SISI Patch to check everything still works. But Having a small litter of positive ish reports is good enough for me.
The latest patcher changes are a shared source of pain with our windoze kin. And we already have some fixes for *nix on that.

Your testing Sev, and Co, is invaluable in these stages, just want to throw out my thanks.

Looks like we will pull this off, for now. But it would be nice to have some help from CCP, even if it is just verble encouragement, or recognition. I know we kinda didnt take to their gift of the TG client very graciously (Although i used it). Somewhat like a child ignoring a wooly jumper gift from an auntie.

Perhaps friendly conversations about issue some nominated bug hunters bring up/Collate. No requirements, or onus. Just a hey, hows life, whats up with the weather in Iceland, whats that funky shader function you used that made our screens turn into a 70's disco-tech, So we can emulate it in more accurately, kinda thing.
Smile

Edit: Do we have and CSM leaders who run *Nix? If not, perhaps we should work on that. Proportional representation and all that.

Mallikan
Gallente
Mercury Syndicate
Twilight Federation
Posted - 2009.02.18 15:37:00 - [117]
 

This really isn't fair.. I would be using Linux if it weren't for the client sucking so bad. You can't offer a poor client and say "Oh well, hardly anyone chooses to use the sucky one over the good one, no one will use it." EVE is one of the last things holding me to a windows operating system. >:(

tedivm
Dreddit
Test Alliance Please Ignore
Posted - 2009.02.18 17:41:00 - [118]
 

CCP (and I hope some CCP staff are reading this) may end up having some problems they hadn't counted on because of this, but at the same time if they're smart they can turn that around.

Lets really look at what Eve is here- its the ultimate geek game. Its got a ridiculous learning curve, a large chunk of the game it mapping out skills and min/maxing ship stats, and lets not forget the premise of the game itself, which tends to appeal to geeks. Hell, you could rename this game 'Geeks in Space' and everyone would still know you meant eve.

The linux (and open source crowd as a whole) isn't just a bunch of random people, its a community (of geeks) with a lot of core members and a lot more fringe members. For instance, I am using the game on OSX most of the time, but all my servers run on linux. Obviously I'm not a person who is using the Linux client, yet I would most likely not be playing this game if it wasn't for the fact that there was one.

You see, the Linux community is already used to being vocal, so when they see something they like (or otherwise), they talk about it. When you throw out linux support, you're also tossing all that marketing.

Of course, that doesn't make you wrong. I did try out the linux client, and it sucks. I mean its bloody awful. Your mistake wasn't in pulling Linux support, it was in half assing it and putting out a crappy client, and then being surprised when people didn't use the crappy client.


Moving Forward

From here there are two places CCP can go. I'm going to start with the most likely, but also the worst thing CCP can do- absolutely nothing.

CCP can drop the client (as its done) and just leave it at that, but this would be a disaster. First, all of the OSX users (such as myself) are going to get nervous that we're next. See, even though this blog post specifically states that the OSX client is doing better, the lack of communication from CCP about the linux client up until they canceled it scares me. Am I just going to wake up one day, try to log in, and find some blog post telling me I'm no longer allowed to play because CCP doesn't like my operating system? There's no way of knowing because CCP botched how they handled this one.


When I stated this post I did say there was something CCP could do to turn this around. This has already been mentioned numerous times in this thread, but it bears repeating. Repeating in big bold letters:

GIVE SOME SUPPORT TO WINE USERS.

Most of the Linux users where using Wine to begin with, due to the crap quality of the Linux client. Many of the posts in the Linux forums are about getting Eve to work with Wine.

How much effort would it be to test new updates in Wine for problems before launch, or to add a few articles to your support documentation about using Wine? By taking some of the money you've been dumping into that god awful linux client and putting it towards better Wine support you will end up seeing a better return on your investment.

If this means actually supporting the open source project itself, all the better. This will bring you a lot more publicity (imagine having Slashdot posting about your support of Wine, as opposed to them posting about your drop of linux) and, as mentioned earlier, the open source community tends to talk.

Val Strommer
Amarr
PIE Inc.
Posted - 2009.02.19 09:47:00 - [119]
 

First I'd like to thank ccp for giving linux a chance. I understand linux with its many flavors and configurations is tough a target and most companies don't give us time of day.

I think the first thing linux users expect is a native client. having to run a program under windows emulation is non-starter for many linux users. Most people started using linux in order to avoid windows. But I undertand in terms of resources a native linux client is probably a non-starter for ccp.

But why not go with the flow and support the client under wine as best you can? Improve wine to run your current windows client more smoothley. You don't have to guarentee it, just stick a guy, a few days a week on fixing problems with wine that the eve client reveals and keep the an article current on how to set up eve under wine. Instead of saying linux is actually supported (and all the resources and effort that entails), advertise it as a unofficial good faith effort. Thats all I've considered "works under windows emulation" to be anyway.

It's also expensive for us linux users, just to keep one extra descent machine around with windows on it, just to play eve. If you could have offered us the same level of client quality that windows players have, we would have used it. I'm sure that if the current client begins to run as smoothly under wine as it does windows, word will spread, and your linux client numbers will increase.

Does ccp know if a client is run under wine, or since the client thinks it's running under windows, does it report back as windows?

Sevarus James
Minmatar
Meridian Dynamics
Posted - 2009.02.20 11:05:00 - [120]
 

Edited by: Sevarus James on 20/02/2009 11:07:18
Edited by: Sevarus James on 20/02/2009 11:05:32
Originally by: Val Strommer

Does ccp know if a client is run under wine, or since the client thinks it's running under windows, does it report back as windows?


If they didn't before they should by now. They weren't looking for it before by their own admission as they were looking ONLY at the users of the "official client" rather than the reg key that identifies wine or windows.

They could check this to see, but as this thread's gettin' about as much "love" now as the normal CCP responses have been in the linux section, who knows. Rolling Eyes

-when the thread gets unstickied....tis history unless the users keep it floating...but typically ccp's responses get far and few between at that point.


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