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Cedric Diggory
Perfunctory Oleaginous Laocoon Mugwumps
Posted - 2009.02.08 16:58:00 - [1]
 

Edited by: Cedric Diggory on 08/02/2009 17:31:35
I've long since objected to dueling for various reasons, but as I'm sat here watching the alliance tournament and somewhat scoffing at how far from "real" combat it is; many of the setups we see would be clobbered by those you see roaming in 0.0 and lowsec. With this thought in my mind, I've softened towards the idea of dueling arenas - provided they are implemented with serious restrictions that keep dueling as a very separate mechanic to combat itself.

Deadspace
Dueling should take place in deadspace, meaning no microwarpdrives allowed. The mechanic should also be modified so that submission is a possibility - in other words, scramblers and disruptors do not function.

Remote Logistics
Like the alliance tournament, remote logistics should be forbidden

Officer modules
Again like the tournament, no officer modules allowed.

The principle behind these thoughts is more along the lines of a soldier versus a gentleman swordsman; whilst the technique of the swordsman might be vastly superior and his sword exquisitely crafted, should he try to bring that to a battlefield the soldier would likely smack him across the back of the head, loot his sword and move along. Any dueling mechanic implemented in eve should, I feel, follow a similar idea.

Grarr Dexx
Amarr
Kumovi
The G0dfathers
Posted - 2009.02.08 16:59:00 - [2]
 

No.

Cedric Diggory
Perfunctory Oleaginous Laocoon Mugwumps
Posted - 2009.02.08 17:01:00 - [3]
 

Originally by: Grarr Dexx
No.


I agree, but that doesn't mean it shouldn't be discussed. Actually read my post - it's not too long - and see what I'm really saying. I do not support dueling in eve, but if you trawl through the CSM forums you'll find it's on CCP's agenda to introduce dueling mechanics, and I'm a great believer in Adapt or Die: If we don't discuss how that dueling should be and hopefully seed thoughts of it, we may see something that will be truly horrific.

5pinDizzy
Amarr
Pillow Fighters Inc
Posted - 2009.02.08 17:09:00 - [4]
 

Umm there's already rumours that they are going to be doing some sort of duelling arena. Although I find myself in discomfort concerning the idea. Seems a bit... well... I wanted to play serious internet spaceships, not treat my stuff like pokemon.

Robert Caldera
Posted - 2009.02.08 21:40:00 - [5]
 

Edited by: Robert Caldera on 08/02/2009 21:43:57
"adapt or die, they are coming"? What do you mean?

If you want some kind of duel you may get it, I would never say anything against it, as long as it does not become the only way to kill someone. I don't need dueling arenas, that is what the test-server may be used for.

Asking the victim for permission to attack sounds horribly and ridiculously for me and way too far away from what eve wants to be - a partially unsafe and deadly space where anything is about ganking and being ganked - it is what eve is identified with.

What you wish is turning a horror movie into a love story, I don't need it and its not the reason I started playing eve.

However, IMAGINE asking people to fight is possible RIGHT NOW in the docking range of stations where no scrambler or logistics limitations are required since everybody may dock anytime he likes in order to avoid a loss, what is an equivalence to your suggested scrambler limitation, but is a really r*tard situation as we all know.

Sir Substance
Minmatar
Suddenly Ninjas
Tear Extraction And Reclamation Service
Posted - 2009.02.09 00:26:00 - [6]
 

you realize that a dueling arena would be pointless?
it would be like
"i killed this really good fighter yesterday"
"oh yea, what system"
"was in the arenas"
"thats not real fighting, grow a pair"

every person i know who PvPs would call you a pansy for fighting in any sort of arena system. no risk, no win, as they say. people who fought in such controlled environments would be the laughing stock of everyone, including carebears like myself.

in the mean time, my narnian friend, what is the point of restricting MWD's. they are critical to many setups that would excel in the arena, witness that fight in the alliance tournament, i cant remember who was fighting, but it was missiles and sensor damps against fleet issue stabbers. the stabbers ****d the other side, it was a slaughter.

also pretty sure remote logistics wasnt forbidden in the alliance tournament, since i distinctly remember a guardian cap transferring to a set of sleipnirs in the tournament.

your post contains many factual errors, many bad premises.

try the green ring my friend.

Irn Bruce
Posted - 2009.02.09 00:59:00 - [7]
 

They should only be allowed if it's possible to scan them out and warp in and interrupt them. Anything else would be out of character with Eve. But then, that already exists, it's called a safespot with a can.

Krathos Morpheus
Legion Infernal
Posted - 2009.02.09 01:34:00 - [8]
 

I don't know if this is for good or for bad, but i see it fitting in the EVE world as being an spectacle run by a corporation with bets and all that stuff. Come here and see the best ships on fire. Like the monster's trucks and that ****.

Cheekything
Gallente
Black Lance
Posted - 2009.02.09 02:14:00 - [9]
 

Dueling sounds like fun but maybe test server is easier to test who is better :P

Sir Substance
Minmatar
Suddenly Ninjas
Tear Extraction And Reclamation Service
Posted - 2009.02.09 02:44:00 - [10]
 

Originally by: Krathos Morpheus
I don't know if this is for good or for bad, but i see it fitting in the EVE world as being an spectacle run by a corporation with bets and all that stuff. Come here and see the best ships on fire. Like the monster's trucks and that ****.


now that i see as a mroe interesting idea.

player corp A recons it has the best pilots around. so it hires an arena, and puts out the word. challange our pilots to a NvN (thats 1v1 or 2v2 or whatever v whatever)round, if you win you get Xisk of you lose, you give us Xisk.

if corp A really does ahve the best pilots around, they will make a killing, otherwise, they make a big loss.

all isk has to be bidded before the rounds start.

sso the window would like this this:

Renter: "Big Bad Corp"
Corp Chamions | Challange cost
Frank | 10mil
James| 15mil
Harry | 35mil

Challangers | VS | starts
Phillip | Frank | 13:00
Craig | Frank | 13:15
BoB |James 13:35
Lizzy | Harry 14:00

so, to challance frank, you need to pay 10mil, and frank needs to pay 10mil per challange, a total of 20.

the winner between phillip and frank gets 20mil, and the winner between craig and rank gets 20mil.

you can see bob is challanging james and lizzy is challanging harry.

once all this info is entered and all cash has been fronted, they all meet at the arranged time (in this case kicking off at 1pm eve time) and fight it out, then some go home winners and some losers.

another way for corps to make isk, but not some kind of WoW-esq "honor" fighting system.

Esiel
Renegade Serenity
Posted - 2009.02.09 03:41:00 - [11]
 

I don't understand why people get so paranoid about dualing arena's. It is a way to get people to pvp that are afraid of loosing stuff. It isn't going to change much of eve except that. So why do people cry so much? Its not like it will be forced upon you or that it is going to replace true pvp. Heck it might encourage people to go out to 0.0 to see how that kind of pvp is like.

Cedric Diggory
Perfunctory Oleaginous Laocoon Mugwumps
Posted - 2009.02.09 09:51:00 - [12]
 

Edited by: Cedric Diggory on 09/02/2009 09:53:23
Allow me to say this again:

I am against duelling arenas, but if the CSM is to be believed they are coming whether we like it or not!


Quote:
you realize that a dueling arena would be pointless?
it would be like
"i killed this really good fighter yesterday"
"oh yea, what system"
"was in the arenas"
"thats not real fighting, grow a pair"


This is exactly the way I would like to see dueling implemented in eve. Had you bothered to read my ****ing post, you'd have realised this before posting. I mean jesus tapdancing christ, it's hardly a tl;dr post!

As for the idea of corporate challenge arenas, I really lol'd. You can do that already, why invent a mechanic for it? Likewise with the monster truck scenario. What I was hoping for was some form of discussion about how the impending dueling mechanic might best function before we end up with something seriously ******ed that will cause flame wars to erupt on the forums outside of CAOD.

RedeyeAce
Caldari
Solar Revenue Service
Posted - 2009.02.09 10:16:00 - [13]
 

Originally by: Sir Substance
Originally by: Krathos Morpheus
I don't know if this is for good or for bad, but i see it fitting in the EVE world as being an spectacle run by a corporation with bets and all that stuff. Come here and see the best ships on fire. Like the monster's trucks and that ****.


now that i see as a mroe interesting idea.

player corp A recons it has the best pilots around. so it hires an arena, and puts out the word. challange our pilots to a NvN (thats 1v1 or 2v2 or whatever v whatever)round, if you win you get Xisk of you lose, you give us Xisk.

if corp A really does ahve the best pilots around, they will make a killing, otherwise, they make a big loss.

all isk has to be bidded before the rounds start.

sso the window would like this this:

Renter: "Big Bad Corp"
Corp Chamions | Challange cost
Frank | 10mil
James| 15mil
Harry | 35mil

Challangers | VS | starts
Phillip | Frank | 13:00
Craig | Frank | 13:15
BoB |James 13:35
Lizzy | Harry 14:00

so, to challance frank, you need to pay 10mil, and frank needs to pay 10mil per challange, a total of 20.

the winner between phillip and frank gets 20mil, and the winner between craig and rank gets 20mil.

you can see bob is challanging james and lizzy is challanging harry.

once all this info is entered and all cash has been fronted, they all meet at the arranged time (in this case kicking off at 1pm eve time) and fight it out, then some go home winners and some losers.

another way for corps to make isk, but not some kind of WoW-esq "honor" fighting system.


I can see where this chap is going, gets the bored fighters to have a spot of pvp and a lil bit of potential boasting ( not that i would take em serious, However people do like this)

My main prob with what he put is :-

BoB |James 13:35, Surely every by now knows it should be
Ken |James 13:35 Very Happy

Seishi Maru
doMAL S.A.
Posted - 2009.02.09 10:55:00 - [14]
 

Originally by: Esiel
I don't understand why people get so paranoid about dualing arena's. It is a way to get people to pvp that are afraid of loosing stuff. It isn't going to change much of eve except that. So why do people cry so much? Its not like it will be forced upon you or that it is going to replace true pvp. Heck it might encourage people to go out to 0.0 to see how that kind of pvp is like.


because that is part of a process called wowification!

Typhado3
Minmatar
Posted - 2009.02.09 12:07:00 - [15]
 

Ok not sure about the idea of dualing arena in balance or whatnot but i love coming up with ideas and whatnot so I'll tell you what I've thought up.

WHO RUNS IT:

Best to run these would be player corps/alliances where you can say meet in a bar (ambulation) organise with one of the npc's for a match and go to a arena set up by an alliance that will shoot a person if they break a set of rules or are not allowed in the arena. It's the running corps job to make sure that arena is defended, it's popular (don't wanna sit around for half an hour waiting for a match) and set the rules allowed.
The arena would need some sort of new mechanics but would basically be pos sorta gun and whatnot, should need to be manned by one of the members of the arena corp. That manager would determine if you are breaking the rules and would use the arena stations (super ship scanner) to observe the fighters.

OR

The pirate nations (angels, guristas etc.) would run these in deadspaces in npc 0.0 possibly low sec and maybe empire. I would find it somewhat odd that in the middle of war time the major empires would decide to divert some military power to entertain ppl with sports that involve killing of countless citizens. The pirate nations doing this however sounds much more reasonable, it also opens up the possiblity and reason for ppl to come and attack these arenas.


PLACES & RULES:

deadspaces, anyone coming in that's not allowed would be shot, if you bring enough you might be able to kill it. But these aren't meant to be a new sorta of easy and profitable deadspace so not much rewards from these for a fair bit of work/risk. Would keep some things to try and minimize a persons ability to rig a match (eg. they bring a suicide alt in half way through to give them an advantage) such as jammers, nos all those sorta shiney things, possibly have the actual arena 2 gates in.
I don't think we should really need rules in all situations, I don't see a reason why someone can't bring his officer fit mega in every time if he wants, he'll just die when that one guy brings in a kiting tempest and knows what he's doing. If you want rules enforced such as no warping off you could make them pay extra for them to manage that, you could have no warping off as a rule and not enforced so they can warp out if they want they will just forfeit their bet.


BETTING & OTHER STUFF:

there should be betting, even if it's just between the two parties dualing their should be the oportunity to place large sums of money. Another thing to consider is the possibility of a tie, this would either be they both die (missile flight time and fluke), or they are unable to kill each other after x amount of time (flashbacks of pokemon battles with metapod vs metapod).
Aside from the isk and loot wouldn't mind seeing some sort of arena ranking/Lp reward to buff these wanna be pirates e-peens.


well that's all I can think up on the spot, will sleep on it.

Nova Fox
Gallente
Novafox Shipyards
Posted - 2009.02.09 12:16:00 - [16]
 

What does adapt or die have to do with anything?

Cedric Diggory
Perfunctory Oleaginous Laocoon Mugwumps
Posted - 2009.02.09 12:19:00 - [17]
 

Quote:
What does adapt or die have to do with anything?


That's a concession to the tl;dr crowd - dueling is coming according to the CSM, simply saying "no" to dueling mechanics is simply sticking your head in the sand: either people come out and discuss how they think dueling should happen or they will end up with a mechanic they despise - hence adapt or die

Erika Bronz
Gallente
The Wyld Hunt
Cascade Imminent
Posted - 2009.02.09 13:10:00 - [18]
 

Originally by: Esiel
I don't understand why people get so paranoid about dualing arena's. It is a way to get people to pvp that are afraid of loosing stuff. It isn't going to change much of eve except that. So why do people cry so much? Its not like it will be forced upon you or that it is going to replace true pvp. Heck it might encourage people to go out to 0.0 to see how that kind of pvp is like.


Some of us get paranoid coz we've seen how instanced PvP killed and squeezed the juice out of ordinary PvP in other MMO's. You can cheapfit a Domi down to a 10 mill loss if you want, and that's a battleship. Some corps even offer free T1 ships (subcap) with free T1 fitting. You would make money out of losing ships even. FW is Eve's answer to arena's, and it's a jolly good one coz it's not instanced. Buy a Zipstick, download IK+ and cry "havoc" if you want instanced pvp, but keep it OOG.

Nova Fox
Gallente
Novafox Shipyards
Posted - 2009.02.09 13:25:00 - [19]
 

but adapt or die isnt applicaple in this situation, your dueling isnt going to cause my death unless I agree to wind up in such place. For all I can I can choose to ingore this feature for all times and never had to step foot in it, and I can remain ahead of other players because of it.

Thunderbird Anthares
ISK Reliability Inc.
Inver Brass
Posted - 2009.02.09 13:33:00 - [20]
 

the day that something so much out of character,useless and lame will get implemented will most likely be the day i will delete my character and cancel my account
and then i will go play WoW



if you wanna duel,use the test server

Cpt Cosmic
Posted - 2009.02.09 13:38:00 - [21]
 

Originally by: Thunderbird Anthares
the day that something so much out of character,useless and lame will get implemented will most likely be the day i will delete my character and cancel my account
and then i will go play WoW

your stuff, gief!

Typhado3
Minmatar
Posted - 2009.02.09 14:26:00 - [22]
 

Originally by: Thunderbird Anthares
the day that something so much out of character,useless and lame will get implemented will most likely be the day i will delete my character and cancel my account
and then i will go play WoW

if you wanna duel,use the test server


wait am I missing something here? Eve is becoming more like wow (bad thing) so your moving to wow..... is my lack of knowledge of other mmo's causing me to miss something?

As for dueling, it's already in game but currently relies on you trusting your enemy (hahah unless your dueling chribba you won't really trust them) not to bring in reinforcements. What I envision is you having to rely a different group of players to ensure that your opponent doesn't bring in reinforcements, and ccp adding in tools to help players do that. Things like 'instances' I could agree as being wrong but dueling/arenas themself doesn't seem that out of character if done right.


damn insomnia... need more sleep.

Dray
Caldari
Euphoria Released
HYDRA RELOADED
Posted - 2009.02.09 14:29:00 - [23]
 

Obvious troll is obvious...

Ratchman
Posted - 2009.02.09 15:08:00 - [24]
 

Originally by: Sir Substance
player corp A recons it has the best pilots around. so it hires an arena, and puts out the word. challange our pilots to a NvN (thats 1v1 or 2v2 or whatever v whatever)round, if you win you get Xisk of you lose, you give us Xisk.


I quite like the idea of working in a 'betting' system to the duel mechanic, as this seems much more in-keeping with the EVE philosophy. Perhaps there could even be a feature that allows non-combatants to bet on the outcome of the duel, with odds calculated from skill points and previous wins.

The duels would need to be ranked into featherweight to heavyweight style rankins, with maybe the skill points determining what rank you enter as, and the stake placed being greater as you progress up the ranks.

Robert Caldera
Posted - 2009.02.09 15:38:00 - [25]
 

Edited by: Robert Caldera on 09/02/2009 15:38:36
I still dont understand that "Adapt or die" statement.
Are dueling arenas going to be forced for someone to use?
Otherwise I would rather say "Adapt or ignore" (I would prefer the second).

Cedric Diggory
Perfunctory Oleaginous Laocoon Mugwumps
Posted - 2009.02.09 16:37:00 - [26]
 

Quote:
but adapt or die isnt applicaple in this situation, your dueling isnt going to cause my death unless I agree to wind up in such place. For all I can I can choose to ingore this feature for all times and never had to step foot in it, and I can remain ahead of other players because of it.


So it would be fair to say that you feel that having a dueling mechanic available would have no effect on PvP? You don't perhaps think that having a dueling mechanic available will in fact tempt people currently partaking in various forms of PvP away from those and into the dueling arenas?

Originally by: Thunderbird Anthares
the day that something so much out of character,useless and lame will get implemented will most likely be the day i will delete my character and cancel my account
and then i will go play WoW


This. Not that I myself would be so harsh, but I think this reaction very much fits with "Adapt or Die".

Robert Caldera
Posted - 2009.02.09 17:08:00 - [27]
 

Edited by: Robert Caldera on 09/02/2009 17:11:31
Adapt or IGNORE is the proper state dude ffs!!
In what way people would DIE due to dislike adapting???

Cedric Diggory
Perfunctory Oleaginous Laocoon Mugwumps
Posted - 2009.02.09 17:35:00 - [28]
 

Originally by: Robert Caldera
Edited by: Robert Caldera on 09/02/2009 17:11:31
Adapt or IGNORE is the proper state dude ffs!!
In what way people would DIE due to dislike adapting???


For the what, third time?

Quote:
the day that something so much out of character,useless and lame will get implemented will most likely be the day i will delete my character and cancel my account


That's death of a sort, no?

Robert Caldera
Posted - 2009.02.09 17:45:00 - [29]
 

Edited by: Robert Caldera on 09/02/2009 17:51:22
omg stop trolling around a single misplaced comment you don't even know what it's relied to!

What I miss is your explanation why you think a significant part of the eve player base would HAVE TO DIE as result of inability/reluctance to adapt instead of just ignoring a s*itty feature!

Astria Tiphareth
Caldari
24th Imperial Crusade
Posted - 2009.02.10 14:44:00 - [30]
 

Edited by: Astria Tiphareth on 10/02/2009 14:56:07
(Only a semi-serious post)

Much as I dislike duels and arenas per se, I'd argue that duelling being implemented is actually a great test of EVE and its community.

Think about it - if they implement duelling and/or arenas then people can genuinely pick between real PvP and duelling (ok, and gatecamping). If two days after said patch, everyone has flocked to dueling and arenas, then current EVE PvP clearly sucks so badly that everyone wanted an alternative.

Alternatively, it will be yet another little-used feature by a specific few e.g. I could see the likes of BIG running 'The BIG Tournament with BIG betting' or something, and everyone else will go back to real PvP.

In short, quit with the inferiority complex. If EVE's PvP is superior to WoW's, people will do it. If it isn't, then a) what the hell are you still here for and b) clearly something else needed fixing.

The only people who are arguing against dueling are those who secretly believe EVE's PvP sucks and that implementing a feature for a few desiring it would lead to this secret being exposed. Laughing


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