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Vincent Gaines
Macabre Votum
Morsus Mihi
Posted - 2009.03.26 11:48:00 - [421]
 

Originally by: Professor Leech
Edited by: Professor Leech on 25/03/2009 04:21:25
Edited by: Professor Leech on 25/03/2009 04:18:44
From a simplistic view it would be better if mining, loot and drone alloys were all independent economies.

Minerals from mining for producing ships.
Module components from loot for producing modules and ammo.
Something from drone alloys for producing ????

However, this could be an unpopular move and could break the highly abused drone regions, alternatively it could convert the drone regions from a non-ghetto region.

A quick fix could be to add a mini-profession to mining equivalent to salvaging for missions/ratting. This would then feed components into a mini-industry. Maybe something like finding a rare mineral vein which would be equivalent to a faction spawn or a sentient drone.
Edit: I would envision the rare ore/vein spawning once a roid is popped so that people don't run around cherry picking the good stuff and leaving nothing for the miners.

The quick fix would be easier to implement and could be added to the current framework. The larger sweeping fix would be more work but the drama and fighting along with making mining a worthwhile unique profession could be good for the game.


There already is that mechanic in place- there are mining missions that request specific ore to be mined that is not listed as a market item. I can't remember them off the top of my head, one is similar to gniess and begins with an "A"

It comes in small yields and is only used as a turn-in as a mission reward.

I can only think of a solution being that reprocessing loot returns salvage. CCP has already stated not only once, but twice that T1 loot will not be dropped or reduced.

So I feel that the drops themselves should be changed as you say, in order to seperate itself from the building market.

The mineral market has been destroyed in the past year or two. Trit was originally supposed to be cheap, which is also why it's a large yield product.

Pyerite and Isogen is completely worthless because of loot drops. Kernite, Hemo, Hed, Jaspet, Pyro, Plag, Scord... none of those are even worth batting an eye at simply because mining them for an hour.. in my hulk... sells for about 200k on the market.

Trit is high, but even then it's just a band-aid for what I feel is an acceptable day's work, and it's horrible.

I make only about 6 mil in trit mining veld for an hour- this is selling at just over 4ISK/U.

I can run a mission, shared mind you, and make twice that and not even touch loot.

So it's a mix of bounties, salvage, loot, and reward that requires a nerf.

Throw in faction drops, and things really get out of hand.

Oh, don't even get me started on the LP store- yeah a CNR is dirt cheap compared to when I started out, now you have dedicated mission ships (marauders) that turn the ISK faucet into a raging torrent.

Industrial bulk ship buffs, the Rorqual and Orca, have done nothing to enhance mineral production. Nothing in terms of mining yield itself has changed to make it more profitable.

So, while mission running has been buffed, mining has still been ignored. Sure, processing has been addressed but that's about it.


I did a test last night, mined veld in my nice fat barren hisec system for an hour, then helped a friend on an easy, average mission for about 45 minutes. both involved the same amount of "attention" to the game, and if I mission I can make much more.


But here's the thing- mining itself should not be buffed. Missions need to be nerfed, and CCP must do this and weather out the threadnaught typhoon that'll come down. Because right now ISK inflation is completely out of control.

Gaogan
Gallente
Solar Storm
Sev3rance
Posted - 2009.03.26 18:00:00 - [422]
 

Originally by: Venkul Mul

It is not happening now because:

1) that 40% of tritanium coming from reprocessing still keep the price in check;

2) there are still NPC sold items that create a cap for tritanium price;

3) to really change high end price you need to change the mineral requirements of ships. And why are you fixating on mission as the reason of the high end low price when the largest source is drone loot?


1) Where do you think the other 60% comes from? Miners. And more people would mine if it was not so much less profitable than missioning, even in low and much of null sec. Also recall that I have said that some more trit needs added to the non veldspar ores, and/ore a low/null sec super high density veld is needed.

2) Name one. CCP removed them all on purpose.

3) Changing the build requirements will work by attacking the demand side. I do not think that CCP wants to do this, which is why I am suggesting fixing the supply side, which was originally balanced in the ores to match demand, but broken by loot. And when I say loot, I am including drone ore, as they are both at fault.

Originally by: Venkul Mul

Isogen 56% from NPC rats loots and general reprocessing (and we still don't know how much mineral compression items are included in that value), Nocxium 51% of from drone loot.



That's how much comes from recycling IN TOTAL, not how much you can produce in an hour. In one hour of either activity, you will end up with a lot more iso and nox from rat or drone loot than you would mining omber, hemorphite, or hedbergite in a maxed out hulk.

Originally by: GyokZoli

1. With missioning you create ISK from nothing with bounties (loot is an exception). We have 2 scenario here:
a. Reduce the bounties. It looks like an option which will not have a great impact on the economy. But people will have less money to by ships & mods for pvp, therefore it may make hardcore pvp people to quit Eve since they'll have no enough income to support their pvp needs (no, they will not go and mine). Ohh and since less money will be generated, market prices will start to drop, etc.
b. Reduce or remove the loot. It would impact only a fraction of the missionrunners since not everybody is looting on missions. So for the looters it will have the same affect as in scenario a. But also the minerals on the market will be reduced, which means increased mineral prices which means more people mining, which at the end means decreased mineral prices, etc.


Reducing bounties will not have any effect on mineral prices. The goal here is to return them to the natural progression of escalating value, so you need to modify mineral source or sinks, not isk source or sinks.

Originally by: GyokZoli

2. With mining, you sell ores/minerals for ISK. If you buff mining (for let's say with increased yield) more people will mine but it will reduce mineral prices in time due to higher supply. Therefore people will go back to missioning. So at the end we will end up where we began.

So if we touch mining and missioning we will not achieve the desired results. I think the solution is in changing the demand somehow. It can happen with changing the material requirements for certain ships or modules or both.


Overall mineral prices will not go down because if they do, people will just insurance fraud ships. The goal here is to adjust the prices of minerals relative to each other, not change the overall price of ships.

Power Sauce
Kenzzoku
Posted - 2009.03.26 21:35:00 - [423]
 

Edited by: Power Sauce on 26/03/2009 21:37:43
Originally by: Vincent Gaines

The mineral market has been destroyed in the past year or two. Trit was originally supposed to be cheap, which is also why it's a large yield product.

Trit is high, but even then it's just a band-aid for what I feel is an acceptable day's work, and it's horrible.

I make only about 6 mil in trit mining veld for an hour- this is selling at just over 4ISK/U.

I can run a mission, shared mind you, and make twice that and not even touch loot.

So it's a mix of bounties, salvage, loot, and reward that requires a nerf.

Oh, don't even get me started on the LP store- yeah a CNR is dirt cheap compared to when I started out, now you have dedicated mission ships (marauders) that turn the ISK faucet into a raging torrent.

Industrial bulk ship buffs, the Rorqual and Orca, have done nothing to enhance mineral production. Nothing in terms of mining yield itself has changed to make it more profitable.

But here's the thing- mining itself should not be buffed. Missions need to be nerfed, and CCP must do this and weather out the threadnaught typhoon that'll come down. Because right now ISK inflation is completely out of control.

I agree with some of what you say and there is some relevant information in there, but there is some cognitive dissonance in there.

You claim that isk inflation is out of control. In fact I am going to make the outrageous claim that there is in fact insufficient isk being circulated in the economy. The reason being is that there is a serious issue with the mineral economy.

First you've stated that trit was supposed to be cheap then you complain that you can't make enough mining it. Removing minerals from module reprocessing would remove 43% of the current trit supply which would push up the price of trit and would make mining more worthwhile (remember it's still high sec though).

Depending on what I am doing anything from 40 to 70% of my total assets are on the market at any one time. If there was outrageous isk oversupply I would have trouble keeping my assets on the market.

Looking at the markets there seems to be a considerable oversupply of mineral based items on the market. In some regions manufacturing lines seem to be more of an issue than mineral supply. It appears that some ship prices are propped up by the price floor created by insurance (correct me if I'm wrong).

Take away insurance and we could see cheaper ships, more pvp and therefore provide a market controlled mineral sink.

If there are any errors feel free to explain them.

Vincent Gaines
Macabre Votum
Morsus Mihi
Posted - 2009.03.26 22:48:00 - [424]
 

Originally by: Power Sauce
Edited by: Power Sauce on 26/03/2009 21:37:43

I agree with some of what you say and there is some relevant information in there, but there is some cognitive dissonance in there.

You claim that isk inflation is out of control. In fact I am going to make the outrageous claim that there is in fact insufficient isk being circulated in the economy. The reason being is that there is a serious issue with the mineral economy.


I agree there is an issue with the mineral economy.

Quote:
First you've stated that trit was supposed to be cheap then you complain that you can't make enough mining it. Removing minerals from module reprocessing would remove 43% of the current trit supply which would push up the price of trit and would make mining more worthwhile (remember it's still high sec though).


Trit was supposed to be cheapest, zydrine and morphite the most expensive, and what I mean by not making enough mining it, as the most profitable hisec ore currently it is nowhere near the amount of ISK I can be making missioning. cutting it from loot would increase prices a bit, which can be offset by increasing yield from reprocessing.

The main things to look at though would be other minerals, such as pyerite, noxium, isogen, or mexallon, which would also increase to where you would see the true inflation that's infecting eve.


Quote:
Depending on what I am doing anything from 40 to 70% of my total assets are on the market at any one time. If there was outrageous isk oversupply I would have trouble keeping my assets on the market.


depends, think of the ISK sinks such as skills and LP bought items, fees (alliance creation), investments, savings, GTC purchases, etc. There are many corps with a 100% tax rate in return for GTC codes.

Quote:
Looking at the markets there seems to be a considerable oversupply of mineral based items on the market. In some regions manufacturing lines seem to be more of an issue than mineral supply. It appears that some ship prices are propped up by the price floor created by insurance (correct me if I'm wrong).


I disagree in some respects- There is an overabundance of most minerals that not-so-oddly resemble the rough proportions of refined T1 loot.

Quote:
Take away insurance and we could see cheaper ships, more pvp and therefore provide a market controlled mineral sink.


price of ships dropping would also be a reflection of people being more careful with ships, meaning less volume, and less demand for minerals, leading to lower prices yet again.

Quote:
If there are any errors feel free to explain them.



no errors, just different points of view \/O\/

Power Sauce
Kenzzoku
Posted - 2009.03.26 23:28:00 - [425]
 

Edited by: Power Sauce on 26/03/2009 23:36:13
Edited by: Power Sauce on 26/03/2009 23:30:01
Originally by: Vincent Gaines

The main things to look at though would be other minerals, such as pyerite, noxium, isogen, or mexallon, which would also increase to where you would see the true inflation that's infecting eve.


Looking specifically at the other low end minerals they are absolutely hammered from the loot refine. So hammered that it seems pointless having them at all.

I'd agree that loot refine is breaking the intention of roid distribution.

The bit that amuses me is that the high amounts of pye, mex and iso would have been for the purpose of creating high demand, rather than high supply because of the manufacturing process being reversible through reprocessing (edit: realised that gaogan has already stated this). Loot processing appears to have all the features of an exploit.

Volar Kang
Gallente
Ragged Rock Industries
Posted - 2009.03.27 01:08:00 - [426]
 

Originally by: Joss Sparq
Originally by: Volar Kang
I think mining needs to be more fun or more interesting and also more safe. Many people leave mining after a bad experience, can-flipping or ore theft. People can not safely solo-mine in null sec, it only takes one pirate with a scrambler and your 100mill hulk is dead in space.

On the flip side, mission running and ratting produce more money per hour than most mining. A person can do both of these solo and have little fear of losing their ship. A person can also do these activities in a ship that costs much less than the 100mill hulk.



I think your opinions are horrible - though I don't wish for you to take personal offence to my saying it like that.

It should be common knowledge that EVE is intended to be a harsh environment - this is why so many trolls suggest some players should (to paraphrase) "return to playing Hello Kitty Online", they're not saying it just because they're a waste of precious breathing air.

Although, the people who leave after one bad experience aren't (in my opinion) much better than those who troll them.

Mining does not need to be safer - it is just about as safe as it can be, compared to anything else in the game. If you believe a particular task is hazardous, then you should practice some risk management.

Just because a Hulk may be the best mining vessel in terms of performance, there isn't any practical barrier to your using a significantly cheaper ship such as a Covetor instead. In this example, you trade some performance in order to decrease the impact of losing the ship. Alternatively, don't mine solo!

Learn to manage the risks involved. Many, many people run their Missions in a Raven Navy Issue - these still cost twice as much as a Hulk on Contracts.

I used to run missions in several billion ISK of Nightmare and fittings. It was entirely possible that I could have been ganked in High Security space while flying that ship - I wouldn't be the first. I could afford to choose between a single battleship and fittings and roughly thirty to forty elite mining barges with fittings when it came to making my ISK. I wasn't forced to fly that Battleship, I evaluated the risks and made my decision based on my assessment and my comfort levels.

When my client crashed as I warped into the mission and my Nightmare was destroyed, I wasn't too upset because I had forseen this possibility and was prepared for it ...

... I hung myself.

But seriously, everything in EVE is dangerous, there are a lot of variables involved but it is only natural that it is relatively more dangerous to do anything in 0.0 space compared to High (or even Low) Security space. That must be expected.

Anyway, who says the hypothetical pirate with the scrambler is flying something the drones launched from your Hulk won't be able to kill or chase off?



The thought was not that mining needed to be more like Hello Kitty Online. Lets look at ratting vs mining in high sec. As a mission runner in an empire corp there is little chance that anyone around me can disrupt my activities. I fly around making money and loot and no one can really stop me. As a miner, every dork out there can flip my can, bump me away from the roids and just be a general crackmonger.

Mission running is safe and you are almost immune to the a-holes. Why would anyone mine? Let me fly into your mission area and kill your last rat and take the item you need to complete the mission and see how much longer you keep running missions. Can-flipping is terrible and any idiot can do it.

Why would you want to log on and deal with that? I know lots of guys who have quit mining simply because it is not fun. Remember the goon-jihad? Oh that was fun for miners.

Lets face facts, mission running is like Hello Kitty online and thats why everyone is doing it.

Hugh Ruka
Exploratio et Industria Morispatia
Posted - 2009.03.27 10:32:00 - [427]
 

Originally by: Malcanis

Eliminate T1 drops

Convert rat meta 1-4 drops into BPCs

Introduce "enhanced" low-end ores into lo-sec and 0.0


THIS PLEASE !!!!

Venkul Mul
Gallente
Posted - 2009.03.27 13:02:00 - [428]
 

Originally by: Volar Kang

The thought was not that mining needed to be more like Hello Kitty Online. Lets look at ratting vs mining in high sec. As a mission runner in an empire corp there is little chance that anyone around me can disrupt my activities. I fly around making money and loot and no one can really stop me. As a miner, every dork out there can flip my can, bump me away from the roids and just be a general crackmonger.


Ever heard of ninja salvagers? Of people entering missions and stealing the target item? Of people entering a mission and purposely aggroing all the room, trying to get you killed?

They are about as common as can flippers, i.e. abundant in mission hubs, rare elsewhere, while can flippers are abundant in mining hubs, rare elsewhere.

Disrupting one activity is as easy as disrupting the other.

Quote:

Mission running is safe and you are almost immune to the a-holes. Why would anyone mine? Let me fly into your mission area and kill your last rat and take the item you need to complete the mission and see how much longer you keep running missions.


Exactly what people do. They even ask a ransom for the target item.

Quote:

Can-flipping is terrible and any idiot can do it.

Why would you want to log on and deal with that? I know lots of guys who have quit mining simply because it is not fun. Remember the goon-jihad? Oh that was fun for miners.

Lets face facts, mission running is like Hello Kitty online and thats why everyone is doing it.


I was mining ice in a hulk at 6 jumps from Amarr during the jihad and never saw a ganker.

Sure, finding a mission runner require to use a probe launcher, but there are whole corporations dedicated to stealing salvage from mission runner and as salvage is not a player property, salvaging the mission runner wrecks don't even even give an aggression timer.

To do it you only need 1 character probing the system and as much low skilled characters as you want to salvage the wrecks.

Nothing hard or dangerous.

Volar Kang
Gallente
Ragged Rock Industries
Posted - 2009.03.27 15:01:00 - [429]
 

I have L4 standings with two different corps and probably run 10 to 20 missions per week and have been doing it for more than a year. I have never experienced any of these "Mission Pirates" you speak of. I'm not saying they dont exist but I am saying that my experience has been that there are more can-flippers and miner-griefers out there than mission pirates.

I do agree with the T1 loot drops from missions being looked at. I know I reprocess these rather than spend any time trying to sell them. This could cause other ripples in the industry, I know many manufacturers who place buy orders in mission systems to get cheap t1 parts to be used in t2 manufacturing. With a reduced supply of cheap t1 mods, some manufacturers will have to make their own and that could add to the demand for minerals whch could help drive up prices a bit and make mining more attractive to some.



Vincent Gaines
Macabre Votum
Morsus Mihi
Posted - 2009.03.27 15:44:00 - [430]
 

Originally by: Volar Kang
I have L4 standings with two different corps and probably run 10 to 20 missions per week and have been doing it for more than a year. I have never experienced any of these "Mission Pirates" you speak of. I'm not saying they dont exist but I am saying that my experience has been that there are more can-flippers and miner-griefers out there than mission pirates.

I do agree with the T1 loot drops from missions being looked at. I know I reprocess these rather than spend any time trying to sell them. This could cause other ripples in the industry, I know many manufacturers who place buy orders in mission systems to get cheap t1 parts to be used in t2 manufacturing. With a reduced supply of cheap t1 mods, some manufacturers will have to make their own and that could add to the demand for minerals whch could help drive up prices a bit and make mining more attractive to some.





The bigger impact would be from the desaturation of market minerals.

there's too much supply from non-mining sources, plain and simple.

skye orionis
Posted - 2009.03.27 16:57:00 - [431]
 

Originally by: Power Sauce
Loot processing appears to have all the features of an exploit.

100% perfect module reprocessing has formed the cornerstone of other 'exploits', nerfing the perfect refine would fix a whole lot of problems. Then again it would have to be a serious nerf to have a profound effect on the 40% of minerals coming from missions. It would have a more profound effect on people using module compression trickery to move minerals (which has all the trappings of an exploit anyway).

Gaius Sejanus
Gallente
Federal Navy Academy
Posted - 2009.03.28 15:01:00 - [432]
 

Quote:

Quote:
Quote:
Mission running is safe and you are almost immune to the a-holes. Why would anyone mine? Let me fly into your mission area and kill your last rat and take the item you need to complete the mission and see how much longer you keep running missions.




Exactly what people do. They even ask a ransom for the target item.


While salvage and normal loot are free for all (subject to the aggression timer on loot), taking mission critical loot is considered harassment and griefplay, since the mission widget is useless to everyone but the mission holder. Anyone who does what you describe can be successfully petitioned.

Venkul Mul
Gallente
Posted - 2009.03.28 21:48:00 - [433]
 

Edited by: Venkul Mul on 28/03/2009 22:08:20
Originally by: Gaius Sejanus
Quote:

Quote:
Quote:
Mission running is safe and you are almost immune to the a-holes. Why would anyone mine? Let me fly into your mission area and kill your last rat and take the item you need to complete the mission and see how much longer you keep running missions.




Exactly what people do. They even ask a ransom for the target item.


While salvage and normal loot are free for all (subject to the aggression timer on loot), taking mission critical loot is considered harassment and griefplay, since the mission widget is useless to everyone but the mission holder. Anyone who does what you describe can be successfully petitioned.


No, it is not harassment. Especially if you do even a token attempt at ransoming it.

Open a petition and ask it to a GM.

It has a value exactly because it can be ransomed.

Originally by: Volar Kang
I have L4 standings with two different corps and probably run 10 to 20 missions per week and have been doing it for more than a year. I have never experienced any of these "Mission Pirates" you speak of. I'm not saying they dont exist but I am saying that my experience has been that there are more can-flippers and miner-griefers out there than mission pirates.




Some random threads and comments about the non existent ninja salvagers made in the last days:

1

2

3

4

5

You can notice our "beloved" Kaega Amieden in most of them, his corp his dedicated to salvaging wrecks in other people missions and has "only" 116 members. And that is not the only corp doing that. You can find a guide to do that in the mission section of the forum (made for the old scan system, but nothing has really changed beside being become easier to scan people in deadspace).



Vincent Gaines
Macabre Votum
Morsus Mihi
Posted - 2009.03.28 22:38:00 - [434]
 

do missions away from hubs?

just like I mine 12 jumps from my "home" to get better results, you can too.

I run level 4's and have never had a ninja.

Venkul Mul
Gallente
Posted - 2009.03.29 00:09:00 - [435]
 

Originally by: Vincent Gaines
do missions away from hubs?

just like I mine 12 jumps from my "home" to get better results, you can too.

I run level 4's and have never had a ninja.



Vincent, your really don't read the posts and comment at random?

Quote:
They are about as common as can flippers, i.e. abundant in mission hubs, rare elsewhere, while can flippers are abundant in mining hubs, rare elsewhere.


I was only proving that crying that mining is hard because of can flipper and that mission haven't similar problems is false.

The solution is the same too: avoid the busy systems.

Venkul Mul
Gallente
Posted - 2009.03.29 00:09:00 - [436]
 

Edited by: Venkul Mul on 29/03/2009 00:10:50
forum bug Rolling Eyes

Vincent Gaines
Macabre Votum
Morsus Mihi
Posted - 2009.03.29 03:09:00 - [437]
 

Originally by: Venkul Mul



Vincent, your really don't read the posts and comment at random?




I do.

can flipping mechanics and ninja salvaging are completely different.

someone steals your loot, you still get your bounties, and mission reward.


someone flips your can, you lose all your income.


plus, someone can't come in right after downtime and take all the missions from your agent.

Arpad Elo
Posted - 2009.03.29 06:06:00 - [438]
 

Originally by: LaVista Vista
As per the CSM minutes

I find this worrying. I think this needs to be raised as an issue for in a few months.

What do you guys think? How should this be fixed?


One way (this might suck) would be to make it easier to sell loot without refining it. That would screw traders though.

Venkul Mul
Gallente
Posted - 2009.03.29 07:36:00 - [439]
 

Originally by: Vincent Gaines
Originally by: Venkul Mul



Vincent, your really don't read the posts and comment at random?




I do.

can flipping mechanics and ninja salvaging are completely different.

someone steals your loot, you still get your bounties, and mission reward.


someone flips your can, you lose all your income.


plus, someone can't come in right after downtime and take all the missions from your agent.


On the flip side if someone flip your can you don't lose standing with a corporation and agent as it will happen if some one steal you mission target item.

And jet canning isn't mandatory, while you don't get the wrecks in your cargo hangar as soon as they are produced.

They are different mechanics but the end result is the same: you can lose part of your income both in mission and mining thanks to the actions of other people.

Venkul Mul
Gallente
Posted - 2009.03.29 08:32:00 - [440]
 

Originally by: Vincent Gaines


CCP has already stated not only once, but twice that T1 loot will not be dropped or reduced.



Not CCP, the CSM decided it was not worth presenting the issue again to CCP for several reasons.

From Omber Zombie CSM minutes:

Quote:
Omber Zombie on 08/12/2008 13:39:52
4) Removing T1 meta-0 loot Postponed to next meeting



Quote:
III. Removing T1 Meta-0 Loot Drops From NPCs [ 2009.02.22 16:50:05 ]

Bunyip introduced the topic, then after some brief discussion, it was decided to withdraw the topic until more concrete data can be analyzed should CCP provide it.

vote: postponed due to lack of data



Quote:



Trit is high, but even then it's just a band-aid for what I feel is an acceptable day's work, and it's horrible.

I make only about 6 mil in trit mining veld for an hour- this is selling at just over 4ISK/U.




Strange number. I can get a 27.500 can full with stripminers I and a hulk in 18 minutes.

That is 3 millions selling unrefined veldspar (at minimum sell order value). So a little less than 9 millions in 1 hour (1 character, no hauler).

Refining and selling tritanium at 3,80 I get 3.138.138 for each can. So mining 3 hours and hauling I get a bit above 9 millions.







Joss Sparq
Caldari
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Posted - 2009.03.29 14:06:00 - [441]
 

Originally by: Carniflex
Originally by: Joss Sparq
Originally by: Venkul Mul
The most probable result is that mission runners will stop looting and only speed run missions.

So you will have more isk entering the system (speed running generate only isk)

I would think that would possibly reduce the amount of ISK entering the economy from Missions, rather than increase it. I'm under the impression that decreasing mission completion times reduces the payouts of individual missions. If it doesn't reduce the ISK coming in, then I suspect that it won't dramatically increase the ISK being generated.


That is somewhat incorrect. It is true that speedrunning decreases mission rewards - however it does nothing to bounties, and those are the major bulk of isk entering the game thru missions. Only about 10% of isk entering the system from missions is actual mission reward.

Yes, yes, Venkul Mul had already corrected me on it Smile
Originally by: Vaerah Vahrokha
LEVEL 4 MISSIONS ARE BETTER FOR EARNING ISK THAN MINING IS, or something like that.

Yes. Yes, they are.


Vincent Gaines
Macabre Votum
Morsus Mihi
Posted - 2009.03.29 14:39:00 - [442]
 

Edited by: Vincent Gaines on 29/03/2009 14:39:34
Originally by: Venkul Mul


Not CCP, the CSM decided it was not worth presenting the issue again to CCP for several reasons.




We have enough data in this thread to present a case, and alto current market data.

Quote:

Strange number. I can get a 27.500 can full with stripminers I and a hulk in 18 minutes.

That is 3 millions selling unrefined veldspar (at minimum sell order value). So a little less than 9 millions in 1 hour (1 character, no hauler).

Refining and selling tritanium at 3,80 I get 3.138.138 for each can. So mining 3 hours and hauling I get a bit above 9 millions.





If you read my post above, you will see where I have this data. The number is actually slightly higher.

I don't jetcan mine, it's one of the few advantages to having a hulk.

In fact, someone mentioned you don't need to jetcan mine- nope, but it's highly irritating to fly a cov/ret every couple cycles to station and back.

Just like trading and speedrunning missions, time is ISK.

Venkul Mul
Gallente
Posted - 2009.03.29 20:33:00 - [443]
 

Originally by: Vincent Gaines
Edited by: Vincent Gaines on 29/03/2009 14:39:34
Originally by: Venkul Mul


Not CCP, the CSM decided it was not worth presenting the issue again to CCP for several reasons.




We have enough data in this thread to present a case, and alto current market data.


Not really. We are missing a lot of data.

How many mission runners against how many miners?

The true effect of compression items (reprocessing them is a small/medium/large part of the reprocessed loot)?

How it has changed after the removal of the shuttles and other items sold by NPC?

There are items sold by NPC that can be reprocessed (some POS part, civilian mining drones). The are brought and reprocessed (one of the big sources of low ends in the past was one of the POS modules )?
In the past civilian AB were fingered as a cap for tritanium at 4.3 or 4.8, but it seem they are no longer sold by NPC.

This thread has several good arguments about this thing, but hardy it is so full of hard fact and CCP is fully aware of the question. The CCP had simply decided not to talk again about the question as CCP is already searching for a solution that will not mess with another hundred things.

Quote:
Quote:

Strange number. I can get a 27.500 can full with stripminers I and a hulk in 18 minutes.

That is 3 millions selling unrefined veldspar (at minimum sell order value). So a little less than 9 millions in 1 hour (1 character, no hauler).

Refining and selling tritanium at 3,80 I get 3.138.138 for each can. So mining 3 hours and hauling I get a bit above 9 millions.





If you read my post above, you will see where I have this data. The number is actually slightly higher.

I don't jetcan mine, it's one of the few advantages to having a hulk.

In fact, someone mentioned you don't need to jetcan mine- nope, but it's highly irritating to fly a cov/ret every couple cycles to station and back.

Just like trading and speedrunning missions, time is ISK.


Exactly. so you throw away time wile mining not jetcanning as you feel the risk of doing it is too hard.

Move outside the main Caldari systems or mine missions spots and you will have very little trouble with can flipping. I am far from the best miner around and still get 9 millions hour, hauling included, while jetcanning.
The cargo extenders cut your profits too. Mining enhancers are better.


Malcanis
Caldari
Vanishing Point.
The Initiative.
Posted - 2009.03.29 21:19:00 - [444]
 

Originally by: Venkul Mul
Originally by: Vincent Gaines
Originally by: Venkul Mul



Vincent, your really don't read the posts and comment at random?




I do.

can flipping mechanics and ninja salvaging are completely different.

someone steals your loot, you still get your bounties, and mission reward.


someone flips your can, you lose all your income.


plus, someone can't come in right after downtime and take all the missions from your agent.


On the flip side if someone flip your can you don't lose standing with a corporation and agent as it will happen if some one steal you mission target item.

And jet canning isn't mandatory, while you don't get the wrecks in your cargo hangar as soon as they are produced.

They are different mechanics but the end result is the same: you can lose part of your income both in mission and mining thanks to the actions of other people.


The level of loss is hardly comparable though.

Venkul Mul
Gallente
Posted - 2009.03.30 05:40:00 - [445]
 

Originally by: Malcanis


The level of loss is hardly comparable though.


I partially disagree.

You can feel more the loss when mining as you see all that you had done for a period of time disappear in one swoop while during a mission you will see part of the reward disappear, but as gross income it can be on similar levels (speaking of high sec).

A full jet can is a little above 3 millions. At worst you normally have 2 jetcans out in space if you have a Iteron 5 with expanders, rigs and containers to pick them up (about 40K m3). So you will lose 5 millions at worst.

Most level 4 missions have above 5 millions in salvage. If the guy that has invaded your mission steal the target item the mission reward+bonus lost can be another pair of millions.

The standing loss if you fail a mission because someone has stole the target item will drop your standing by a good value too and that will reduce your rewards for several missions.

Risk of ship destruction is about the same and dependent on what you do.

Being can flipped is more common but there are way to mitigate that risk (mining in exploration sites, mining in location outside the beaten path, mining missions). There are equivalent precautions to avoid ninja salvagers and mission busters (essentially, stay away from missions hubs as they thrive where there are a lot of mission runners) but all included the isk value of the loss is more or less equivalent.

0.0 mining is totally another beast. But then we are not speaking of can flipping.

Omber Zombie
Gallente
Frontier Technologies
Posted - 2009.03.30 08:06:00 - [446]
 

Originally by: Venkul Mul


Quote:
III. Removing T1 Meta-0 Loot Drops From NPCs [ 2009.02.22 16:50:05 ]

Bunyip introduced the topic, then after some brief discussion, it was decided to withdraw the topic until more concrete data can be analyzed should CCP provide it.

vote: postponed due to lack of data




Just to clarify this a little, we have put forward a request for a mineral breakdown of the following categories:
ore, drone comps, hauler spawns, meta 0, meta 1-4, t1 ships, npc goods (tags etc.), t2 (ships+mods), Other (faction/officer/deadspace/storyline)

with that data also split down into hisec/lowsec/nullsec so we can get a better idea of what minerals are being created where and from what. The actual number of mission runners vs. miners isn't actually a needed dataset as it should be clearly visible once the breakdown is shown.

As for what data we might get - that is up to CCP really. Obviously some of that data is sensitive as it would show trade opportunities and other things that could be manipulated, but as CSM is under NDA's (and CCP IA checks out accounts for anything irregular) we should be able to work with that data and come up with a plan internally without having to reveal exact figures to the general playerbase.

The other issue with that data is that it is time intensive to gather. From what we have learned so far out of this route of information gathering, CCP generally do not log the data we are looking at unless asked to specifically. It is somewhat server/database intensive to do so, and the previous data released was done through logging over a month. So, at this point, we can't really do anything about this until CCP lets us know they have the logged data (if they do so at all), and it is entirely likely that the logging process/reporting won't happen until after the current CSM is out of office either way due to them logging various other things for Apocrypha performance indicators.

I'm not sure if Hexxxxxxxxx Razz is running for CSM3 or not, but if he isn't, I'm happy to carry on LVV's role of the MD forum nerd/champion should I make it to CSM3 and make sure this continues to get looked at.

Venkul Mul
Gallente
Posted - 2009.03.30 10:01:00 - [447]
 

Originally by: Omber Zombie

Just to clarify this a little, we have put forward a request for a mineral breakdown of the following categories:
ore, drone comps, hauler spawns, meta 0, meta 1-4, t1 ships, npc goods (tags etc.), t2 (ships+mods), Other (faction/officer/deadspace/storyline)

with that data also split down into hisec/lowsec/nullsec so we can get a better idea of what minerals are being created where and from what. The actual number of mission runners vs. miners isn't actually a needed dataset as it should be clearly visible once the breakdown is shown.

As for what data we might get - that is up to CCP really. Obviously some of that data is sensitive as it would show trade opportunities and other things that could be manipulated, but as CSM is under NDA's (and CCP IA checks out accounts for anything irregular) we should be able to work with that data and come up with a plan internally without having to reveal exact figures to the general playerbase.

The other issue with that data is that it is time intensive to gather. From what we have learned so far out of this route of information gathering, CCP generally do not log the data we are looking at unless asked to specifically. It is somewhat server/database intensive to do so, and the previous data released was done through logging over a month. So, at this point, we can't really do anything about this until CCP lets us know they have the logged data (if they do so at all), and it is entirely likely that the logging process/reporting won't happen until after the current CSM is out of office either way due to them logging various other things for Apocrypha performance indicators.

I'm not sure if Hexxxxxxxxx Razz is running for CSM3 or not, but if he isn't, I'm happy to carry on LVV's role of the MD forum nerd/champion should I make it to CSM3 and make sure this continues to get looked at.




Great, simply for this reply you have won one of my votes, another for the good minutes of the CSM reunions.
Link all the minutes in the CSM Wiki and you will get the other two and I will even do some campaigning with my friends.Very Happy




Omber Zombie
Gallente
Frontier Technologies
Posted - 2009.03.30 12:15:00 - [448]
 

Originally by: Venkul Mul

Great, simply for this reply you have won one of my votes, another for the good minutes of the CSM reunions.
Link all the minutes in the CSM Wiki and you will get the other two and I will even do some campaigning with my friends.Very Happy



heh, funny you should mention the wiki - I'm currently in the process of moving everything from the CSM wiki into the evelopedia... I'm sure the YARR team are getting sick of seeing my name on a whole bunch of new pages to moderate Razz

Carniflex
StarHunt
Fallout Project
Posted - 2009.03.30 13:12:00 - [449]
 

Originally by: Joss Sparq

That is somewhat incorrect. It is true that speedrunning decreases mission rewards - however it does nothing to bounties, and those are the major bulk of isk entering the game thru missions. Only about 10% of isk entering the system from missions is actual mission reward.

Yes, yes, Venkul Mul had already corrected me on it Smile



Yeah. Sorry about that - was a bit hurry when posting and noticed a day afterwards that the point had been already adressed by Venkul. Nature of forums that one gun get's jumped mutiple timesWink

Anyway - as far as this thread goes I'm still hoping that we will get more data about loot vs mining vs drones for mineral influx into EVE. So far all we have is that snapshot and few lines in one of economic devblogs. It should not be overly complex procedure to extract exact 'mineral amounts' contained in loot picked up only and only from mission wreks vs drone wreks vs zerozero ratting (and hauler spawns) vs mining over some reasonable timeframe - say a week or so.

Gaogan
Gallente
Solar Storm
Sev3rance
Posted - 2009.04.15 15:01:00 - [450]
 

Originally by: Venkul Mul

Not really. We are missing a lot of data.

How many mission runners against how many miners?


Not in any way relevant. Assume 100 or even 1000 people mission for every one that mines. What would that indicate other than yet more proof that missioning is overpowered? No matter what the number is it does not alter the fact that the mineral market is FUBAR because of far too many minerals coming from missioning in general, and specifically the minerals are in the wrong proportions.

Originally by: Venkul Mul
The true effect of compression items (reprocessing them is a small/medium/large part of the reprocessed loot)?


Again, not relevant. As the effect of compression grows from zero to infinity, the balance of minerals actually produced from missioning/ratting grows more and more away from trit, which only strengthens the argument that rat loot provides far too many mid and high end minerals.

Originally by: Venkul Mul

How it has changed after the removal of the shuttles and other items sold by NPC?


Does it really matter? It is a pretty good bet that the amount of trit from recycling dropped significantly once shuttles were no longer in the mix. If it didn't, what difference would it make?

Originally by: Venkul Mul
There are items sold by NPC that can be reprocessed (some POS part, civilian mining drones). The are brought and reprocessed (one of the big sources of low ends in the past was one of the POS modules )?
In the past civilian AB were fingered as a cap for tritanium at 4.3 or 4.8, but it seem they are no longer sold by NPC.


Recycling coupling arrays was fixed eons ago, and civvy mining drones put a cap on trit well over 300 isk per unit, so they don't even bear mentioning.


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