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Feilamya
Pain Elemental
Posted - 2009.02.03 01:31:00 - [61]
 

Originally by: Corwain
Originally by: Concorduck
Originally by: Khorkrak
Naturally using libraries that are os specific makes things hard such as directx. Why go with that over OpenGL? Is there really something that good about it?


Yes


DirectX is easier to code for as Microsoft has done half the work for you, but it takes more resources to render.

Story short, CCP is lazy.

Have you ever done some graphics programming for Direct3D? It is horrible!

I have used both OpenGL and Direct3D in the past. Programming in Direct3D is simply not fun. Any task usually takes twice the effort and causes a lot more frustration in Direct3D than in OpenGL. I wouldn't touch DirectX if I didn't get paid for it.

The only reason I can imagine why anyone would prefer Direct3D over OpenGL is that it might have the newest features earlier than OpenGL. But that might be wrong; is actually very likely wrong, because OpenGL is an extendable API whereas Direct3D is not. If there is a new hardware feature, hardware vendors can define a new OpenGL extension to make the feature available in OpenGL. Direct3D, on the other hand, can only be extended by Microsoft.

Take geometry shaders for example. They are available in DirectX 10, not in DirectX 9. DirectX 10 is only available on Vista. Nobody gives a **** about Vista. For OpenGL, on the other hand, there is a standardized extension for geometry shaders, which you can use on Windows XP, Linux and probably other platforms too.


So whatever the reason was for CCP to use Direct3D, it was most certainly not laziness. If it had been laziness or convenience, EVE would be using OpenGL.
Let's not forget that EVE was released in 2003, and development most likely started a couple of years earlier. Direct3D might have been better established as an API for accelerated 3D graphics at that time. It took years for OpenGL to catch up on API features required for efficient use of hardware acceleration, because it was originally designed for a different architecture.

WarlockX
Amarr
Free Trade Corp
Posted - 2009.02.03 02:06:00 - [62]
 

Originally by: Corwain
Originally by: WarlockX
Ok you keep telling yourself it's better.

I'll be playing crysis with dx10 graphics. oh what's that you can't play that on linux? Oh shoot, well at least it's a better OS.


1. You're bragging about being able to play a crap EA game? Laughing
2. You know the 360 can play Crisis too, does that make it superior to a PC?


that's like asking if a man with legs is a superior runner to a man with no legs. Even a 400 pound mcdonald eating man is going to be Superior runner compared to someone that can't do it at all.

both windows and 360 > linux if you're trying to play Crisis or any other game that doesn't even run on linux because the thing you're trying to do isn't even possible to do on linux how the hell can you even compare.

WarlockX
Amarr
Free Trade Corp
Posted - 2009.02.03 02:09:00 - [63]
 

Edited by: WarlockX on 03/02/2009 02:12:12
Originally by: Eventy One
Originally by: WarlockX
Ok you keep telling yourself it's better.

I'll be playing crysis with dx10 graphics. oh what's that you can't play that on linux? Oh shoot, well at least it's a better OS.

The better OS for me is the one that works. Laughing


I love the hostility it receives ... its a sign that it is a threat.

You don't like linux? You're absolutely free not too - that doesn't, however, make it any less a good OS.

Very Happy


I'm not hostile towards it at all. I'm just stating a fact.
Windows is a better platform for playing games, and all i hear back is "but linux is more configurable", "but linux is more stable", "but linux is faster?"

But can it run all the games I want to play with no hassle at all and no special setup?
NO?
THEN WHO CARES?!

I don't want to configure anything or recode the OS, or play around with system variables, I do enough of that at work.

Corwain
Posted - 2009.02.03 02:35:00 - [64]
 

Seems to me that most of the naysayers here either haven't ever tried Linux, or suck horribly at getting it set up.

I gotta say one of my favorite things about a linux desktop machine is how customizable it is.

Compared to Linux, Windows is Victorian in its flexibility of customization.

Screenshot of my setup and some programs.


Desktop backgrounds are highly customizable
Some even rig their desktops to display videos instead of images. Imagine a scrolling matrix-text desktop background.

And most windows games run just fine in Wine. The point of this thread wasn't that games are hard to play in Linux but that the official client has its ass handed to it by Wine.

Tiirae
The 5th Freedom
Wildly Inappropriate.
Posted - 2009.02.03 02:40:00 - [65]
 

I'm all for something that could lessen MS's chokehold on the world's desktop computers, but Linux has missed the boat. I'm surprised there so many people here who are still banging the 'linux > windows' drum, cos most well known Linux evangelists gave that up several years ago.

That dream is over, forget it. The windows team doesn't even care about Linux any more.

The next battleground, the one that is just forming now, is the mobile space. Again MS has a lock with Windows Mobile but it's nothing like the desktop space. With Google and android, the iPhone, Symbian, and the many custom linux OSes that are already in use, it makes sense for Linux lovers to focus on making sure MS doesn't get the same monopoly in mobile that it has on the desktop.

And the desktop is only temporary, once someone find the right mix of size and power in a mobile device then desktop sales will plummet.

So it's not all doom & gloom for Linux, but for FFS stop crying about the desktop, that battle is over.

Either way, it's funny how they stridently cry out 'but it's the better OS' as if that is relevant.

You know, the battle for dominance will be decided by people who don't even know what an OS is, let alone why one might be better than another. My Dad, your sister, people who want these machines to USE instead of ********** over; they will buy the thing that's right for them and if you linux creeps can get over yourselves for long enough to notice, you have an opportunity to make sure that it's your favorite OS powering those machines.

But I think the chances are slim. Too many people seem to invest so much emotion into technical choices, there's not much chance of them behaving rationally.

As far as Eve goes, well there's no way on Earth developing and maintaining a Linux version of the client is worthwhile, given the tiny % of users who use it. And even more so given that they can run the Win32 client anyway. All you get is complaints. I am sure the *only* reason they have a Linux client is because they wanted a Mac client and the two are basically the same.

ElJoeb
Posted - 2009.02.03 02:46:00 - [66]
 

Originally by: Par'Gellen
How did a thread about linux reach this many posts? Isn't that more people than actually use it?


Maybe because Linux users are loud and annoying and have serious entitlement issues. And the Windows users like to egg them on. All it takes is one vague comment about Linux (it could be a f$%#ing spelling error for chrissakes) and the holy war starts anew. Linux users have to stop acting like they should be treated like they're in daycare and accept that not everyone is going to go to the trouble of serving them just because they exist. Windows users ought to stop sniping for the sake of it.

Every time I see a game support Linux in some form, it ends up being not enough on some level. They might complain about a lack of support for their particular distro, lack of open code, and not being at parity with versions for other OS's, price, decreased performance, etc. When I think of all the nagging that supporting Linux seems to entail, I don't blame developers for not supporting the platform.

And for all the Windows people, Linux is past the point of being a pain to install/configure. It's braindead easy, which has been giving new Linux users some delusions of technical mastery that Windows users apparently can't match. Even if that mastery is limited to typing apt-get install randomstuff. I blame Ubuntu for making Linux users stupid.

**Was/Kinda-still-is-a-Linux user.

Sythyss
Posted - 2009.02.03 02:50:00 - [67]
 

Originally by: WarlockX
I'm not hostile towards it at all. I'm just stating a fact.
Windows is a better platform for playing games, and all i hear back is "but linux is more configurable", "but linux is more stable", "but linux is faster?"

But can it run all the games I want to play with no hassle at all and no special setup?
NO?
THEN WHO CARES?!

I don't want to configure anything or recode the OS, or play around with system variables, I do enough of that at work.


We're not talking about your personal situation here, or whether linux can run each and every possible game out there absolutely perfectly. Maybe it doesn't work out for you, so you're free to use windows, but linux can run lots of windows games/apps fine, including eve, which is enough for me, and a lot of other people out there. If you're not a hardcore gamer, who needs every single possible game to run fine, I really don't see the advantage to windows at all. Things like VMware can run any windows productivity apps you need....I mean as soon as the obsessive need for every single game to run perfectly is taken out of the picture, I don't see how windows has any sort of upper-hand at all.

This thread is a complaint against the official linux clint, since the mac client is getting far more attention...hell, support is so low, we even have other means to run eve better than the 'official' client, and it's looking like it was basically just a publicity stunt by CCP.

You started an OS war out of this, but what it all boiled down to is what you stated above, which is not what everyone needs. I play my share of games fine...and have a fun time doing it. Many of them are linux native...some, like eve, are windows games that run fine, since MOST run fine. If you're a more of a gamer than the general populace, though, and need those few that don't work, then, yes, you can use windows, but that isn't the point, since we have proved linux is superior in basically every other way, which is why we use it, and it is not, in any way, the useless OS you make it out to be.

Tiirae
The 5th Freedom
Wildly Inappropriate.
Posted - 2009.02.03 02:53:00 - [68]
 

Originally by: Corwain
Seems to me that most of the naysayers here either haven't ever tried Linux, or suck horribly at getting it set up.

I gotta say one of my favorite things about a linux desktop machine is how customizable it is.

Compared to Linux, Windows is Victorian in its flexibility of customization.

Screenshot of my setup and some programs.


Desktop backgrounds are highly customizable
Some even rig their desktops to display videos instead of images. Imagine a scrolling matrix-text desktop background.

And most windows games run just fine in Wine. The point of this thread wasn't that games are hard to play in Linux but that the official client has its ass handed to it by Wine.


You see the level of customisation as a strength, to me it's a weakness. I don't want bells and whistles, I want a consistent dekstop on my machine, my laptop, my wife's computer and the computers I use on client's sites. I haven't used firefox since chrome was released, mostly because there are no extensions. Less is actually more.

And while that's just my personal preference, the fact is that the unwashed masses are the same way.

Options are confusing. And for adminstrators of large networks, options are expensive.

Video as a desktop background? Yeah, that'll boost my productivity. It's symptomatic of what's wrong with Linux, all these developers having a toss-off over what 'cool' features they can implement, without realising NOBODY CARES. 99% of users don't want crap like that, they only want to use MSN and Hotmail.


Alexliea
Posted - 2009.02.03 02:53:00 - [69]
 

Originally by: Corwain
Seems to me that most of the naysayers here either haven't ever tried Linux, or suck horribly at getting it set up.

I gotta say one of my favorite things about a linux desktop machine is how customizable it is.

Compared to Linux, Windows is Victorian in its flexibility of customization.

Screenshot of my setup and some programs.


Desktop backgrounds are highly customizable
Some even rig their desktops to display videos instead of images. Imagine a scrolling matrix-text desktop background.

And most windows games run just fine in Wine. The point of this thread wasn't that games are hard to play in Linux but that the official client has its ass handed to it by Wine.


Oh Ya, now i can see it.. wait... geez that looks the same as my desk top. im sooo JELOUS
Desktop

WarlockX
Amarr
Free Trade Corp
Posted - 2009.02.03 02:54:00 - [70]
 

^ That's my alt. Posted to fast.

Sythyss
Posted - 2009.02.03 03:00:00 - [71]
 

Originally by: Tiirae
You see the level of customisation as a strength, to me it's a weakness. I don't want bells and whistles, I want a consistent dekstop on my machine, my laptop, my wife's computer and the computers I use on client's sites. I haven't used firefox since chrome was released, mostly because there are no extensions. Less is actually more.

And while that's just my personal preference, the fact is that the unwashed masses are the same way.

Options are confusing. And for adminstrators of large networks, options are expensive.

Video as a desktop background? Yeah, that'll boost my productivity. It's symptomatic of what's wrong with Linux, all these developers having a toss-off over what 'cool' features they can implement, without realising NOBODY CARES. 99% of users don't want crap like that, they only want to use MSN and Hotmail.



This is just showing your ignorance once again. How many times do I have to say it....linux is way more user-friendly than it used to be. Yes, it's true you CAN highly customize it, but as I've said countless times in this thread, for people who have never used computers before, when presented with windows and ubuntu, EVERYONE chooses ubuntu, EVERYTIME, because of it's ease-of-use. People are just lazy, unwilling to change, and refuse to accept things out of their norm or comfort-zone.

WarlockX
Amarr
Free Trade Corp
Posted - 2009.02.03 03:04:00 - [72]
 

Originally by: Sythyss


This is just showing your ignorance once again. How many times do I have to say it....linux is way more user-friendly than it used to be. Yes, it's true you CAN highly customize it, but as I've said countless times in this thread, for people who have never used computers before, when presented with windows and ubuntu, EVERYONE chooses ubuntu, EVERYTIME, because of it's ease-of-use. People are just lazy, unwilling to change, and refuse to accept things out of their norm or comfort-zone.


But the main point of an operating system is to run software.
If one existed that could run eve at 15000 fps but nothing else. Would it make it better? No.

The OS that can run the most software with the least amount of trouble is the better OS. customization is nice but it's not the purpose of an OS. Like i said before. I don't care to buy a car that can cook me breakfast and check my emails if it can't get me to work on time. Because that's the point of a car. And to run software is the point of an OS.

Sythyss
Posted - 2009.02.03 03:07:00 - [73]
 

that was a response to someone mentioning how much a bother linux was to use -.-

and I still don't see your response to my earlier post

Corwain
Posted - 2009.02.03 03:08:00 - [74]
 

Edited by: Corwain on 03/02/2009 03:09:56
You've got the same color as I (currently) am using, but that's about it mate. I can quickly and easily change all of that.

Oh, and Warlock--Linux has a much better proliferation of software. You've got like 20 of every type of program at least, and with apt-get you don't even need to do your own research to find a program that say, creates gold from base metals. Wink

WarlockX
Amarr
Free Trade Corp
Posted - 2009.02.03 03:10:00 - [75]
 

Originally by: Corwain
You've got the same color as I (currently) am using, but that's about it mate. I can quickly and easily change all of that.


what exactly can you do that I can't because i bet you i can figure out a way to do anything you do.

WarlockX
Amarr
Free Trade Corp
Posted - 2009.02.03 03:13:00 - [76]
 

Originally by: Sythyss
that was a response to someone mentioning how much a bother linux was to use -.-

and I still don't see your response to my earlier post


yes i kinda did answer it. i said what's the point of having an OS that can't run all the software you want to run. Whether your a gamer or not. When someone buys a brand new computer they don't ussualy think "oh boy i can't wait to get this home and customize the OS" ... lol. they probably think oh boy i cant wait to try to run this software or that software and see how much faster/better is runs then my old computer.

Corwain
Posted - 2009.02.03 03:28:00 - [77]
 

Edited by: Corwain on 03/02/2009 03:45:54
http://www.kde-look.org/CONTENT/content-pre1/13562-1.jpg

http://www.kde-look.org/CONTENT/content-pre2/44349-2.jpg

http://www.kde-look.org/CONTENT/content-pre1/48800-1.jpg

http://www.kde-look.org/CONTENT/content-pre1/53885-1.jpg

http://www.kde-look.org/CONTENT/content-pre2/53970-2.jpg

http://www.kde-look.org/CONTENT/content-pre1/80480-1.jpg

http://www.kde-look.org/CONTENT/content-pre1/37030-1.jpg

Here's a few desktop screenshots I grabbed on a random browse of KDE-Look.org

You can do a lot more but this is the quick answer. The desktop widgets are awesome too. I personally keep a binary clock, temperature, and calculator on my toolbar as well as a desktop post-it notes program.

Sythyss
Posted - 2009.02.03 03:28:00 - [78]
 

my point was that it DOES run ALL the software I need -.-

The only software that is incompatible is SOME games

Sythyss
Posted - 2009.02.03 03:30:00 - [79]
 

Originally by: WarlockX
Originally by: Corwain
You've got the same color as I (currently) am using, but that's about it mate. I can quickly and easily change all of that.


what exactly can you do that I can't because i bet you i can figure out a way to do anything you do.


hahahahahahahaha

wow...really shows your ignorance xD

WarlockX
Amarr
Free Trade Corp
Posted - 2009.02.03 03:32:00 - [80]
 

Originally by: Corwain
Edited by: Corwain on 03/02/2009 03:29:46
http://www.kde-look.org/CONTENT/content-pre1/53885-1.jpg

http://www.kde-look.org/CONTENT/content-pre2/53970-2.jpg

http://www.kde-look.org/CONTENT/content-pre1/80480-1.jpg

http://www.kde-look.org/CONTENT/content-pre1/37030-1.jpg

Here's a few desktop screenshots I grabbed on a random browse of KDE-Look.org

You can do a lot more but this is the quick answer. The desktop widgets are awesome too. I personally keep a binary clock, temperature, and calculator on my toolbar as well as a desktop post-it notes program.


windows can do all of that in fact i've seen it do much more, i don't see your point.

Khorkrak
Gallente
Solacarium
Posted - 2009.02.03 03:38:00 - [81]
 

Edited by: Khorkrak on 03/02/2009 03:39:23
How about connecting to the internet without requiring anti-virus software? No need whatsoever for such resource sapping code running in the background for linux users at all. Really. You just can't do that on windows. tada.
http://www.linux.com/feature/60208

WarlockX
Amarr
Free Trade Corp
Posted - 2009.02.03 03:40:00 - [82]
 

Originally by: Khorkrak
Edited by: Khorkrak on 03/02/2009 03:38:39
How about connecting to the internet without requiring anti-virus software? No need whatsoever for such resource sapping code running in the background for linux users at all. Really. You just can't do that on windows. tada.

http://www.linux.com/feature/60208



nobody would bother writing a virus that can't spread lol
mac uses the same logic, but really windows has more virus' because ppl use windows.

WarlockX
Amarr
Free Trade Corp
Posted - 2009.02.03 03:42:00 - [83]
 

Originally by: Corwain
Edited by: Corwain on 03/02/2009 03:34:12
http://www.kde-look.org/CONTENT/content-pre2/44349-2.jpg

http://www.kde-look.org/CONTENT/content-pre1/48800-1.jpg

http://www.kde-look.org/CONTENT/content-pre1/53885-1.jpg

http://www.kde-look.org/CONTENT/content-pre2/53970-2.jpg

http://www.kde-look.org/CONTENT/content-pre1/80480-1.jpg

http://www.kde-look.org/CONTENT/content-pre1/37030-1.jpg

Here's a few desktop screenshots I grabbed on a random browse of KDE-Look.org

You can do a lot more but this is the quick answer. The desktop widgets are awesome too. I personally keep a binary clock, temperature, and calculator on my toolbar as well as a desktop post-it notes program.


1
2
3
4

GEE look what you at that.

Sythyss
Posted - 2009.02.03 03:46:00 - [84]
 

Originally by: WarlockX
Originally by: Khorkrak
Edited by: Khorkrak on 03/02/2009 03:38:39
How about connecting to the internet without requiring anti-virus software? No need whatsoever for such resource sapping code running in the background for linux users at all. Really. You just can't do that on windows. tada.

http://www.linux.com/feature/60208



nobody would bother writing a virus that can't spread lol
mac uses the same logic, but really windows has more virus' because ppl use windows.


argh...I hate when people use that logic. Do you realize how stupid that is? Yes, windows has a majority of the market share, but did you know they dropped below 90% recently? There are MILLIONS of people who use mac or linux, and MILLIONS of people who have the know-how to make these viruses, yet you're saying NOTHING has ever reached these OS's? that's bull****. Mac and Linux are both way more secure systems by nature

WarlockX
Amarr
Free Trade Corp
Posted - 2009.02.03 03:51:00 - [85]
 

Edited by: WarlockX on 03/02/2009 03:54:46
Originally by: Sythyss
Originally by: WarlockX
Originally by: Khorkrak
Edited by: Khorkrak on 03/02/2009 03:38:39
How about connecting to the internet without requiring anti-virus software? No need whatsoever for such resource sapping code running in the background for linux users at all. Really. You just can't do that on windows. tada.

http://www.linux.com/feature/60208



nobody would bother writing a virus that can't spread lol
mac uses the same logic, but really windows has more virus' because ppl use windows.


argh...I hate when people use that logic. Do you realize how stupid that is? Yes, windows has a majority of the market share, but did you know they dropped below 90% recently? There are MILLIONS of people who use mac or linux, and MILLIONS of people who have the know-how to make these viruses, yet you're saying NOTHING has ever reached these OS's? that's bull****. Mac and Linux are both way more secure systems by nature



If you want to have a wide-spread virus, you go after the Microsoft operating system. That doesn't mean that Linux can't be exposed to viruses. It just means it's not a real target. Central Command has documented more than 200 viruses specifically targeting the Linux operating system.

besides like i said before. even if you had an OS that can't be targeted by virus at all it wouldn't matter unless it can run all the games/software out on the market today. That includes dx10 games.

rValdez5987
Amarr
Imperial Guard.
Posted - 2009.02.03 03:57:00 - [86]
 

Originally by: Dragonwell
Originally by: Lothros Andastar
[...]CCP cannot give as much resources to a client that is used by 2% of their playerbase


I sympathize, but, this.

At the moment M10 is being hammered out, so you're likely going to waiting until at least post-M10 for any developments here.


This is a sad but true fact. You have to remember the majority of people are neither smart, nor educated, especially both at the same time, which is a requirement for using linux.

Windows is the AOL of Operating systems. Dont even get me started about MAC OS (although they are slowly improving)

Personally I run XP, Vista, and Ubuntu, on seperate partitions and use linux every chance i get.

WarlockX
Amarr
Free Trade Corp
Posted - 2009.02.03 04:03:00 - [87]
 

Originally by: rValdez5987
Originally by: Dragonwell
Originally by: Lothros Andastar
[...]CCP cannot give as much resources to a client that is used by 2% of their playerbase


I sympathize, but, this.

At the moment M10 is being hammered out, so you're likely going to waiting until at least post-M10 for any developments here.


This is a sad but true fact. You have to remember the majority of people are neither smart, nor educated, especially both at the same time, which is a requirement for using linux.

Windows is the AOL of Operating systems. Dont even get me started about MAC OS (although they are slowly improving)

Personally I run XP, Vista, and Ubuntu, on seperate partitions and use linux every chance i get.


you also have to be a better machanic and smarter with cars to drive a pos car so that you can fix it everytime it breaks down.
So by that logic a pos car is better then a porche cause you gotta be smarter to use. greeeeattt logic.

Gonada
The Scope
Posted - 2009.02.03 04:08:00 - [88]
 

so in the end, folks, what you have is this:

CCP is focused on making the game better using OS's that is widely used, and sorry to say Lisux is not in that catagory.Very Happy

lol

Corwain
Posted - 2009.02.03 04:08:00 - [89]
 

And everyone knows a Porche is the most reliable car ever...

Corwain
Posted - 2009.02.03 04:11:00 - [90]
 

Originally by: Gonada
so in the end, folks, what you have is this:

CCP is focused on making the game better using OS's that is widely used, and sorry to say Lisux is not in that catagory.Very Happy

lol


Sure, whatever. The point is CCP decided to try to have a Linux client, but the guys they paid to make it for them are doing a worse job than the guys that aren't getting paid. Either they should give up altogether or stop half-assing it.

"Everything worth doing is worth doing right"


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