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blankseplocked The Linux Client is disappointing
 
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Khorkrak
Gallente
Solacarium
Posted - 2009.02.02 17:51:00 - [1]
 

Why isn't there a premium graphics version of the linux client? Instead we're stuck having to run the windoze one in windowed mode via wine in order to be able to consistently switch to other processes due to a weird focus related bug. Running the linux client itself is so-so as it's only full screen mode & classic graphics + you end up with this strange situation if the in-game browser launches your default browser with more than 2 tabs typically where you end up not being able to clear anywhere on the browser yet it's the topmost window - grrrrr.

The code is written in python with c++ extensions. Being cross-platform shouldn't be such a challenging issue as python is built with that in mind. Naturally using libraries that are os specific makes things hard such as directx. Why go with that over OpenGL? Is there really something that good about it?




Lothros Andastar
Gallente
Posted - 2009.02.02 17:59:00 - [2]
 

Well if you're so ****ing awesome you code it yourself. Until then, suck it up that CCP cannot give as much resources to a client that is used by 2% of their playerbase

An Anarchyyt
Gallente
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
Posted - 2009.02.02 18:00:00 - [3]
 

I like how games always release a Linux client.

Concorduck
Gallente
Posted - 2009.02.02 18:05:00 - [4]
 

Originally by: Khorkrak
Naturally using libraries that are os specific makes things hard such as directx. Why go with that over OpenGL? Is there really something that good about it?


Yes

Dragonwell
Brutor Tribe
Posted - 2009.02.02 18:09:00 - [5]
 

Originally by: Lothros Andastar
[...]CCP cannot give as much resources to a client that is used by 2% of their playerbase


I sympathize, but, this.

At the moment M10 is being hammered out, so you're likely going to waiting until at least post-M10 for any developments here.

Khorkrak
Gallente
Solacarium
Posted - 2009.02.02 18:10:00 - [6]
 

The point is that they don't have to give any resources to a linux specific client. Make the app be cross platform to begin with. It's written mostly in python - and making things cross platform there is not as insanely difficult as it is with lesser languages.

Rex Lashar
Amarr
Posted - 2009.02.02 18:11:00 - [7]
 

The Linux client is disappointing?

Proprietary API support on open source platforms is disappointing.

Welcome to Microsoft Hell.

Corwain
Posted - 2009.02.02 18:13:00 - [8]
 

Originally by: Concorduck
Originally by: Khorkrak
Naturally using libraries that are os specific makes things hard such as directx. Why go with that over OpenGL? Is there really something that good about it?


Yes


DirectX is easier to code for as Microsoft has done half the work for you, but it takes more resources to render.

Story short, CCP is lazy.

Rex Lashar
Amarr
Posted - 2009.02.02 18:34:00 - [9]
 

There's that, there's also the part where even OpenGL 3.0 doesn't bring parity between the two APIs.

So it's not just a matter of laziness, CCP are on record that their coders would much rather be working with OpenGL anyway. Trinity 2 being DX9.0c is probably just a stopgap measure. What interests me is what they're going to do next. DX11 will probably have the adoption rate Vista never did, and it leaves OpenGL in the dust (even with OpenCL 1.0). Even if Larrabee takes off, writing a software engine in C/C++ makes you hardware dependent.

So right now their choices are:

- crappy graphics and great cross platform support (OpenGL)
- better graphics with crappy cross platform support (DX9.0c)

And in the future it might be:

- much better graphics and even worse cross platform support (DX11)
- archaic graphics and great cross platform support (OpenGL)
- ridiculously amazing effects that only run on one hardware part and probably not very fast (Larrabee)

Yeahhhhh...

Corwain
Posted - 2009.02.02 18:47:00 - [10]
 

To quote SNL's Celebrity Jeopardy parody of Sean Connery: "Gussy it up any way you like lad, the question is does it work?"

And OpenGL does indeed work. DirectX doesn't.

Bumbum George
Posted - 2009.02.02 18:56:00 - [11]
 

Why does the Linux client suck?

Because they let TransGaming do the work and TransGaming suck!
On top of that they even charge money for sucking Rolling Eyes

WarlockX
Amarr
Free Trade Corp
Posted - 2009.02.02 19:01:00 - [12]
 

Originally by: Corwain
To quote SNL's Celebrity Jeopardy parody of Sean Connery: "Gussy it up any way you like lad, the question is does it work?"

And OpenGL does indeed work. DirectX doesn't.


Yes it works great.
Why should the majority of ppl sacrifice graphics for compatibility would the minority. Rolling Eyes

Armoured C
Gallente
Noir.
Noir. Mercenary Group
Posted - 2009.02.02 19:03:00 - [13]
 

em why are you moaning here ccp dont make the linux client as far as i am awear.


and as said i dont think CCP should divert any more recoursed since so little of the playerbase uses linux.

if you want premium go mac or M$ TBH

WarlockX
Amarr
Free Trade Corp
Posted - 2009.02.02 19:06:00 - [14]
 

Edited by: WarlockX on 02/02/2009 19:07:34
If anything linux should support directx. not CCP support linux.

Get a main stream operating system for god sakes.

Theres no point in having the best operating system in the universe it it doesn't run anything at all.

my OS never crashes.
wow, thats amazing what software can it run.
nothing..

Armoured C
Gallente
Noir.
Noir. Mercenary Group
Posted - 2009.02.02 19:08:00 - [15]
 

Originally by: WarlockX
Edited by: WarlockX on 02/02/2009 19:07:34
If anything linux should support directx. not CCP support linux.

Get a main stream operating system for god sakes.

Theres no point in having the best operating system in the universe it it doesn't run anything at all.

my OS never crashes.
wow, thats amazing what software can it run.
nothing..



can i haz your forum babies O_O

Corwain
Posted - 2009.02.02 19:17:00 - [16]
 

Edited by: Corwain on 02/02/2009 19:20:09
Originally by: WarlockX
Edited by: WarlockX on 02/02/2009 19:07:34
If anything linux should support directx. not CCP support linux.


Linux can't support DirectX due to Copyright issues. Microsoft isn't just gonna go "sure you can integrate out graphics framework into your operating system. I mean it's not like you're currently our most serious competitor."

I've played plenty of Linux games with great graphics and you have no idea how easy it is to get programs for Linux. Imagine if Windows Update didn't just update your operating system but actually allowed you to update any one of your programs and search a database of all kinds of programs. Oh, and didn't rely on a web browser.

apt-get and its frontends > GOD.

And Linux is mainstream nowadays.

Armoured C
Gallente
Noir.
Noir. Mercenary Group
Posted - 2009.02.02 19:19:00 - [17]
 

Originally by: Corwain
Originally by: WarlockX
Edited by: WarlockX on 02/02/2009 19:07:34
If anything linux should support directx. not CCP support linux.


Linux can't support DirectX due to Copyright issues. Microsoft isn't just gonna go "sure you can integrate out graphics framework into your operating system. I mean it's not like you're currently our most serious competitor."


wait lol


sorry i will have to read this again i have tears in my eyes

WarlockX
Amarr
Free Trade Corp
Posted - 2009.02.02 19:26:00 - [18]
 

Originally by: Corwain
Edited by: Corwain on 02/02/2009 19:20:09
Originally by: WarlockX
Edited by: WarlockX on 02/02/2009 19:07:34
If anything linux should support directx. not CCP support linux.


Linux can't support DirectX due to Copyright issues. Microsoft isn't just gonna go "sure you can integrate out graphics framework into your operating system. I mean it's not like you're currently our most serious competitor."

I've played plenty of Linux games with great graphics and you have no idea how easy it is to get programs for Linux. Imagine if Windows Update didn't just update your operating system but actually allowed you to update any one of your programs and search a database of all kinds of programs. Oh, and didn't rely on a web browser.

apt-get and its frontends > GOD.

And Linux is mainstream nowadays.


mcguiver once made a plane from bamboo.

WarlockX
Amarr
Free Trade Corp
Posted - 2009.02.02 19:39:00 - [19]
 

Edited by: WarlockX on 02/02/2009 19:41:53
Originally by: Corwain
Trolls. If you're not gonna actually discuss the topic don't post. Prove me wrong if I am and you can, but don't troll for no reason.


Prove you wrong at what? This is exactly why CCP is getting rid of classic client, so they don't spend more time/resources on supporting every hardware/OS/software combination in the world. You're asking for the complete opposite, you're saying screw the majority support the minority.

You're OS does cool updates.
Mine can run EVE premium.

I'll stick to mine.

Sythyss
Posted - 2009.02.02 19:39:00 - [20]
 

Edited by: Sythyss on 02/02/2009 19:44:08
Originally by: WarlockX

mcguiver once made a plane from bamboo.


wtf? just go away, man. If you're actually going to contribute to the discussion and make some form a viable argument, feel free, but if you're just going to be an ignorant troll, you can leave.

EDIT: and actually most linux users do run eve premium completely fine through wine...this is a discussion about the official client

WarlockX
Amarr
Free Trade Corp
Posted - 2009.02.02 19:46:00 - [21]
 

Originally by: Sythyss
Originally by: WarlockX

mcguiver once made a plane from bamboo.


wtf? just go away, man. If you're actually going to contribute to the discussion and make some form a viable argument, feel free, but if you're just going to be an ignorant troll, you can leave.


The point is, just because someone makes a plane from bamboo doesn't mean you should fly in it.

The main function of an OS is to support software. If you're gonna run an OS that doesn't support all the software you want to run then it defeats the purpose, it doesn't matter what it can do or how fast or stable it is since it fails at it's main function.

I wouldn't buy a car that dispenses ice cream if you can't drive it on the highway.

Armoured C
Gallente
Noir.
Noir. Mercenary Group
Posted - 2009.02.02 20:12:00 - [22]
 

Originally by: Corwain


And Linux is mainstream nowadays.


0.81% of computer users use Linux.


so say that again

Sythyss
Posted - 2009.02.02 20:22:00 - [23]
 

Originally by: WarlockX
The point is, just because someone makes a plane from bamboo doesn't mean you should fly in it.

The main function of an OS is to support software. If you're gonna run an OS that doesn't support all the software you want to run then it defeats the purpose, it doesn't matter what it can do or how fast or stable it is since it fails at it's main function.

I wouldn't buy a car that dispenses ice cream if you can't drive it on the highway.


the main purpose of an OS is the ability to support software, and make that process as automated or customized as the user wants, and in that respect linux does a much better job. The only argument you have and ever will have for pro-MS is the fact that more software "just works." That's it, and that's not the OS's fault, the fault lies within the developer's of the software, since such a vast majority of users just happen to use MS as their OS. The problem here is not the OS, it's microsoft's domination of the market atm because of some good early marketing they did, yet despite that, despite that microsoft is some muti-billion dollar company, linux, developed by the community for free, gains on it every year. I mean a couple years ago it would basically be unheard of for a company like CCP to support linux in any way, but now we're at that point, and we're gonna keep pushing it. And as I said, almost every linux user here does run eve premium fine, we're just talking about official support from CCP, so in terms of who can run what, you aren't at a huge upperhand here.

Sythyss
Posted - 2009.02.02 20:25:00 - [24]
 

Originally by: Armoured C
Originally by: Corwain


And Linux is mainstream nowadays.


0.81% of computer users use Linux.


so say that again


you have to factor in a lot of that is just corporate-run computers. If you're talking about people's home computers, and just casual computer users like the people here who play eve, the percentage is much higher.

Corwain
Posted - 2009.02.02 20:28:00 - [25]
 

Okay, you guys seem to be confused about what comes first, the chicken or the egg.

But this isn't a chicken-egg scenario.

You're asking for Linux to be compatible with programs written for Windows. And guess what, Wine will run most of Windows programs great!

Now, how many Mac programs will Windows run?

As for my original statement even if its perfectly legal for DirectX API to be brought directly from Windows to Linux without any backwards engineering that takes time and often doesn't deliver well, that still doesn't mean Linux SHOULD do that. I mean the original argument is that OpenGL isn't "fancy" enough so instead of Linux ripping off DirectX what they SHOULD do is develop something that is even "fancier" than it is.

Nessaden
Minmatar
The Greater Goon
Clockwork Pineapple
Posted - 2009.02.02 20:30:00 - [26]
 

Originally by: Corwain

And Linux is mainstream nowadays.
Inaccurate.

Corwain
Posted - 2009.02.02 20:33:00 - [27]
 

Edited by: Corwain on 02/02/2009 20:37:57
Originally by: Nessaden
Originally by: Corwain

And Linux is mainstream nowadays.
Inaccurate.


Originally by: Sythyss
Originally by: Armoured C
Originally by: Corwain


And Linux is mainstream nowadays.


0.81% of computer users use Linux. so say that again


you have to factor in a lot of that is just corporate-run computers. If you're talking about people's home computers, and just casual computer users like the people here who play eve, the percentage is much higher.




Read the thread before you post.

Sythyss
Posted - 2009.02.02 20:34:00 - [28]
 

Originally by: Nessaden
Originally by: Corwain

And Linux is mainstream nowadays.
Inaccurate.


it's in no way as mainstream as windows, but it's mainstream enough to get companies like CCP to start developing support for it =P. As I said something like this would be unheard of a few years ago.

Par'Gellen
Gallente
Neon Cranium
Posted - 2009.02.02 20:59:00 - [29]
 

I thought all Linux users were leet enough to write their own upgrades... Rolling Eyes

WarlockX
Amarr
Free Trade Corp
Posted - 2009.02.02 21:00:00 - [30]
 

Originally by: Sythyss

the main purpose of an OS is the ability to support software, and make that process as automated or customized as the user wants, and in that respect linux does a much better job.


No its not.

If there was no OS then every software company would have to build pretty much their own operating software to interface with the hardware.

The purpose of the OS is to run the software and interface with the hardware so that the software doesn't need to worry about that.

For this stated purpose then ONE standard is good and competition is bad. I want to buy software take it home and know that it works. Period. Just like when I buy an appliance i want to know that I can take it home and plug it in and not worry about which type of electricity plugs my house has, that's the point of a standard.

Let's look at the two extremes and see which would be bad and which one be good.

Extreme number one there's only 1 OS on the market: Then all software would work for it. Is this bad? Meh, maybe as the OS company can be lazy and not update and there will probably be lots of easily targeted virus.

Extreme number two, there are literally hundreds of main steam OS's: Then all software takes decades to write to work for all OS's and is filled with bugs because it need to be compatible with everything. Hence the quality of all software is worse as too much time is spent witting compatibility code rather then features.


I know which one Id rather live in. Good software, short development and greater stabability for one OS >>>> OS competition.


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