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Commodore Bill
Posted - 2009.02.02 14:45:00 - [1]
 

It's a large Domination Tower. Currently onlined defenses include:

8 Medium Artillery batteries
2 Medium Autocannon batteries
2 Small Autocannon batteries
1 Energy Neutralizing battery
3 Stasis Webification batteries
2 of each ECM (Phase Inversion, Ion Field Projection, etc) batteries
2 Warp Disruption batteries

Also anchored but not online, about 3 or 4 times all of the above, plus a couple Large Artillery batteries thrown in for good measure.

Worst Case Assumptions:

The corp that owns this POS will offline all their labs, about 10 of them, a mix of regular and advanced and have the grid needed to online 3 Explosion Dampening arrays, 3 Ballistic Deflection arrays, 2 Heat Dissipation arrays and a Photon Scattering array, which are currently anchored offline.

The corp appear to be mostly veteran (2 plus years) carebears, some if not most may have trained Starbase Defense Management and they may have the ability to manually operate many if not all of the defenses. Smallish corp though, perhaps 2 dozen members

They may have numerous Logistics ships, Command Ships and Battleships.

They may have substantial liquid assets and the ability to hire all manner of mercenaries.

What forces would it take to knock this POS over if they're not paying attention or do nothing to prepare?

And what would it take if all the worst case assumptions hold true?

Splash Whale
FinFleet
Raiden.
Posted - 2009.02.02 15:04:00 - [2]
 

You want to have 20+ remote rep battleships (8 ecm's can really give you a hard time with sorting out reps).


Vaerah Vahrokha
Minmatar
Vahrokh Consulting
Posted - 2009.02.02 15:14:00 - [3]
 

Complete newbie question (please forgive me I am sure I am going to ask something stupid): why would you want to kill an hi sec POS, expecially one so well defended?

I mean, I can see how some kill others' ships just because, but in this case there has really to be some pretty heavy reason. Do they steal you your market?

(Sorry again, I am sure this is a dumb question Sad)

Sodima Ka'taur
Posted - 2009.02.02 16:20:00 - [4]
 

thats a lot of firepower and im betting he wants to kill it because he wants to

Batista456
Posted - 2009.02.02 16:38:00 - [5]
 

Iron balls

If they have a couple starbase mgrs, they will destroy 100 times ISK than tower is worth...

Drop me an ingame mail i wana see it Twisted Evil

Kazzac Elentria
Posted - 2009.02.02 16:44:00 - [6]
 

Iron nothing, brass ones the size of Texas.

Even one moderately trained and only partially competent defense toon in that corp would mop the floor with just about everything you'd be throwing at it.

Mintaka Orion
Caldari
Ishukone Subsidiary
The Orion Alliance
Posted - 2009.02.02 16:49:00 - [7]
 

Unless someone is paying you a couple billion isk to do this, the economics loss/gain doesn't work out. If it is for revenge - well that a high price to pay.

Tandin
The Knights Templar
Cascade Imminent
Posted - 2009.02.02 17:36:00 - [8]
 

What he's described is similar to 0.0 death star setups. Does the POS have any labs or anything? I'm curious why anyone would setup up a POS like that in highsec.

As a POS gunner, I can tell you that without dreads if they have any gunners at all they will **** you unless you have just huge numbers of BS's attacking it.

To do it, you'd need on the order of 50 BS's with remote reps and good sniper fits. You absolutely have to incap those weapons as quickly as possible.

Even so, expect to lose quite a few ships in the process. While it IS possible, it definitely will not be cheap, easy, or fast to accomplish.

Now, a dread fleet in lowsec/0.0 is a different matter entirely.

nether void
Caldari
Brotherhood of Suicidal Priests
R.A.G.E
Posted - 2009.02.02 17:48:00 - [9]
 

I'm really curious why you're wanting to hit an installation as beefy as this one. lol Serious question. 95% of my interest in this thread is the motive for the attack.

Mintaka Orion
Caldari
Ishukone Subsidiary
The Orion Alliance
Posted - 2009.02.02 18:34:00 - [10]
 

Please tell us your motive. We are very curious.

Commodore Bill
Posted - 2009.02.02 18:37:00 - [11]
 

So....the synopsis of how most have replied is that attacking this thing would be silly? Also a mite expensive.

As for reasons, this is Eve. Does there need to be a reason?

Could be for profit. There's a billion isk just in labs, though if they have any brains at all they keep blueprints in one of the systems stations. Then again it stands to reason the labs and anything contained within would be removed long before the first shot is fired.

Could be that the very notion of this monstrosity is really irksome.

Could be just for giggles.

Batista456
Posted - 2009.02.02 18:43:00 - [12]
 

Tell plz in which system ? I wanna see it :)Wink

Kazzac Elentria
Posted - 2009.02.02 19:00:00 - [13]
 

If you are serious, I would suggest instead of attempting to do it yourself, contract it out to one of a few very specialized merc outfits that do nothing but bust POS.

Give them the isk they'll need and it'll be down before you know it.

Tasko Pal
Aliastra
Posted - 2009.02.02 19:10:00 - [14]
 

Edited by: Tasko Pal on 02/02/2009 19:11:11
This is how it's done. You pay a major 0.0 alliance to go in and knock this baby over. Then you brag about it on the forums as you make the war dec.

Edit: Don't pay any attention to Kassac, what does he know? Razz

Kazzac Elentria
Posted - 2009.02.02 19:15:00 - [15]
 

Originally by: Tasko Pal
Edited by: Tasko Pal on 02/02/2009 19:11:11
This is how it's done. You pay a major 0.0 alliance to go in and knock this baby over. Then you brag about it on the forums as you make the war dec.

Edit: Don't pay any attention to Kassac, what does he know? Razz


LOL, I had totally forgot about that one.

Raymon James
Minmatar
Sebiestor Tribe
Posted - 2009.02.02 19:44:00 - [16]
 

Originally by: Commodore Bill
It's a large Domination Tower. Currently onlined defenses include:

8 Medium Artillery batteries
2 Medium Autocannon batteries
2 Small Autocannon batteries
1 Energy Neutralizing battery
3 Stasis Webification batteries
2 of each ECM (Phase Inversion, Ion Field Projection, etc) batteries
2 Warp Disruption batteries

Also anchored but not online, about 3 or 4 times all of the above, plus a couple Large Artillery batteries thrown in for good measure.

Worst Case Assumptions:

Given your exact description either this is a funny coincidence you missed a couple of points

1) its a alt corp of an alliance that is mostly in low sec and 0.0.

2) they can have another 30 or so pilots(mostly with a mix of T2 and faction BCs and BS that they have as spares) in addition to their current staff in that corp without even trying just from thoes that have Level 5 mission running alts that work closeby.

3) 3 of them are FCs who are fairly good at their job.

so if this is a freaky coinqidink then its not going to be that hard.

but then again, Twisted Evil

Tireen Darksky
Caldari
Posted - 2009.02.02 21:39:00 - [17]
 

Short answer: A Miracle.

I want to see the massacre :D

Nakimoto
Caldari
Unnatural Growth
OUTWORLD SYNDICATE
Posted - 2009.02.02 22:34:00 - [18]
 

about 20 sniping rohks, 5 logistic ships and prey they don't show up or hire mercs. Sad fact with high sec pos war fare is no element of surprise at all since there is a 24 hour delay before you can attack. Count on them removing all precious goods from the tower (the labs and bpos) and filling the grid with defense. Long range rohks 249km with maxed skills and log ships an additional 150Km off the rohks will keep you at the max range for only 6 med guns and outside jammer/web/scram range. It is doable but considering you will be engaging a death star with no goodies in it, probably not worth the trouble

Tasko Pal
Aliastra
Posted - 2009.02.02 22:42:00 - [19]
 

Originally by: Nakimoto
about 20 sniping rohks, 5 logistic ships and prey they don't show up or hire mercs. Sad fact with high sec pos war fare is no element of surprise at all since there is a 24 hour delay before you can attack. Count on them removing all precious goods from the tower (the labs and bpos) and filling the grid with defense. Long range rohks 249km with maxed skills and log ships an additional 150Km off the rohks will keep you at the max range for only 6 med guns and outside jammer/web/scram range. It is doable but considering you will be engaging a death star with no goodies in it, probably not worth the trouble


And if they set up some more med guns and start flying cloaked rifters in with your rokhs, it could get a lot more expensive. Not that that is a bad thing. Wink

Serdanae
Posted - 2009.02.03 00:10:00 - [20]
 

First of all, let me say that I'm coming into this as an experienced 0.0 FC, and I'm looking at this problem as something similar to taking down a cyno jammer. It is a painful experience, and very similar (but actually a lot easier) to what you are trying to do here.

First of all, let's look at the size of the problem. To take a large tower into reinforced, you have to inflict around 34M damage to it. That is BEFORE you even think about resists or passive shield recharge. To put that into perspective, if you have 50 battleships, each doing 250 dps, it is going to take you about 45 minutes to put it into reinforced, even if you ignore the resists/passive recharge.

You may think 250 dps is low, but consider that you have to fit a lot of range mods to get outside of the range of the disruptors (200K+), you have to use long-range ammo, and you have to fit plates to keep from getting insta-gibbed by the guns (and giving yourself a chance to warp off).

You also have to consider the passive regen of the shields. If you have 200 ships hitting it, you can ignore that. But if you have a more realistic fleet, it will add a non-trivial amount of time.


Ok, let's assume you are willing to get 50 battleships together, and are willing to go out there for 45 minutes. IF there are no POS gunners and no tacklers on the opposing side, you probably can do it with minimal losses. It will take you longer than 45 minutes though, since people will have to warp off to repair. And you WILL incur some losses from bad luck, when multiple guns target the same guy.

The problem is when the defender has gunners. Remember that they will have time to offline (at least) their labs, and online more guns. They can have 16 or more medium artillery onlined on that thing, and if they have all those guns manned, they will insta-pop your battleships. It won't matter if you have remote reppers or not, they will get pasted.

If they have gunners, you have to come with a hell of a lot more than 50, and also expect to take a LOT of losses. If you only come with 50, they will kill your entire fleet before you even make a dent in the shields. If you come with more, you may end up killing the POS, but they'll be killing a ship every 30 seconds.


Darth Satanicus
Posted - 2009.02.03 10:24:00 - [21]
 

Originally by: Commodore Bill
It's a large Domination Tower. Currently onlined defenses include:

8 Medium Artillery batteries
2 Medium Autocannon batteries
2 Small Autocannon batteries
1 Energy Neutralizing battery
3 Stasis Webification batteries
2 of each ECM (Phase Inversion, Ion Field Projection, etc) batteries
2 Warp Disruption batteries

Also anchored but not online, about 3 or 4 times all of the above, plus a couple Large Artillery batteries thrown in for good measure.


Lol, "thats no moon" Very Happy

Batista456
Posted - 2009.02.03 11:15:00 - [22]
 

I will setup such a one myself - just need a help how to f***** someone so hard... that he comes to fight it ?

DTson Gauur
Caldari
Blend.
Nulli Tertius
Posted - 2009.02.03 11:21:00 - [23]
 

As people have already stated: A miracle.

This setup you've described is pretty much the "ultimate" high sec deathstar, with few pos gunners, it'll **** a 100+ BS fleet so fast it ain't even funny anymore, basically the medium artys can instapop a BS per 1 volley, maybe 2 volleys. And it doesn't matter if they're getting RR support or not.

Anything getting within 150 km of the POS (web / scram range) will face a certain death, the ECM will make sure any RR attempts will be a painful mission, since the RR support will be ECM'd to death atleast half the time.

If you really want to kill the POS be prepared to shell out ISK somewhere near the amount it takes to setup one like that (3-4 bilion range)

It's not a question IF you'll lose ships, but HOW MANY.

Irish Blend
Posted - 2009.02.03 14:35:00 - [24]
 

Edited by: Irish Blend on 03/02/2009 14:49:47
Why is this POS a shock? Anyone who has read this excellent guide - http://myeve.eve-online.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=817184

Is doing the same serious setup, or they are playing games at running a POS waiting to be wardec'd, and unable to defend themselves. Or worse, scrambling around shutting off labs and losing customers.

If you are using a research POS - insist that the POS have defenses online and anchored/offline, AND at a minimum a single POS gunner - anything else is just asking for a wardec from the smallest of people messing up your operations

Brock Nelson
Posted - 2009.02.03 15:32:00 - [25]
 

Originally by: Irish Blend
Edited by: Irish Blend on 03/02/2009 14:49:47
Why is this POS a shock? Anyone who has read this excellent guide - http://myeve.eve-online.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=817184


Wow...may I suggest re-reading the thread? Its not that the POS setup is a shock, its a shock that someone wants to try to take it out.

Irish Blend
Posted - 2009.02.03 17:05:00 - [26]
 

Originally by: Brock Nelson

Wow...may I suggest re-reading the thread?


No.
The OP is the one that wants to take this POS out, and an early response posted wanting to know where this is to see it. I suggest you read the entire thread not just the title and last response. The bus is leaving, hurry up run faster ...


Jainia Soltella
Posted - 2009.02.03 20:16:00 - [27]
 

Couple other points to keep in mind:

If you manage to put this POS in reinforced, you have to collect similar numbers to attack again, most likely at a time of the defender's choosing (Assume that they will choose the worst possible time for you). Can you bring equivalent firepower 6-12 hours off of your prime time, up to 41 hours after the initial attack? Even if they do nothing to defend the first time round, the tower will be stronted.

During the re-inf time:

1) They are going to rep up and re-online all of those guns, probably anchor and online more.
2) They will be ready to rep the shields the instant it comes out.
3) Everything of value will be removed to a station, so unless you are being paid, you won't get anything other than the modules when the tower dies. (Maybe a few hundred mil if they are faction AND you are willing to spend hours repping them up)

Can you maintain a gang to harass them and prevent some of this from happening? Remember that they can use rep drones on the mods, so they can duck inside the shields and still rep mods if you come to play.

Finally, You can also be certain that even if they weren't there for the first attack, they will be for the second. Are your pilots willing to take more losses to finish the job for little/no reward? If you lost a ton of ships in the initial attack, pilot attrition will be a factor. (All of the corp rules in the world can't make people stock extra ships in their hangar... even in rich 0.0 space where you can rat the isk for a T2 fit BS in an afternoon Mad)

If you decide to go forward, good luck on your assault. You're going to need it. Wink

Aeryl Firebrand
Posted - 2009.02.03 21:11:00 - [28]
 

Originally by: Irish Blend
Originally by: Brock Nelson

Wow...may I suggest re-reading the thread?


No.
The OP is the one that wants to take this POS out, and an early response posted wanting to know where this is to see it. I suggest you read the entire thread not just the title and last response. The bus is leaving, hurry up run faster ...




The poster wants to see the attempt to kill the POS, not the POS itself. Rolling Eyes

Batista456
Posted - 2009.02.04 01:47:00 - [29]
 

to end confusion - to see how it looks! i dont think anyone will attempt to take it down ugh

Dianeces
Habitual Euthanasia
Pandemic Legion
Posted - 2009.02.04 06:15:00 - [30]
 

Originally by: Jainia Soltella


During the re-inf time:
3) Everything of value will be removed to a station, so unless you are being paid, you won't get anything other than the modules when the tower dies. (Maybe a few hundred mil if they are faction AND you are willing to spend hours repping them up)



Nope, sorry. Anything that uses CPU will be unusable until the tower gets back over 50% shield. That means any labs or corp hangar arrays left on the field (and anything within them) when the tower goes into reinforced will still be there when it comes out.


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