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ToxicFire
Phoenix Knights
Posted - 2009.01.26 20:21:00 - [1]
 

While I agree that new systems needed to be added wormhole space or true 0.0 in its current iteration I doubt will be exploitable in terms of resources that CCP thinks it will.

Why?, simply put infrastructure, most of the game has made obtaining resources on any significant level requires an underlying infrastructure to harvest the resources, store them, get them out safely. Wormholes are counter productive to this, while i agree yes the challenge is good there needs to be a balance between accessibility and difficulty otherwise these 2500 systems could end up been empty space. Lets just list the issues that are key.

*No sovereignty, some of the incentives for maintaining a localised infrastructure are gone, not to mention the difficulty of maintain a pos once the wormhole has moved on and you can no longer get fuel to it.
*With no sovereignty, most resource harvesters won't feel safe enough to conduct large scale operations needed to make use of such resources
*Access restrictions
-Wormhole access is random, one moment it could happily be on the edge of your small pocket of space you hold as your domain the next it could be in the heart of some vast empire from where you could not possibly escape with your team of gatherers quite possibly wasting everything you've gathered.

With a possible lack of ppl willing to put posses up (unless there part of a large scale alliance and can throw isk at the issue quite easily) we start looking at alternative infrastructure to support harvesters... this is basically capital support ships carriers, The rorq etc. But this is where we hit a snag the only access route into these location is via wormholes no cyno's, So your screwed if the wormhole happens to be inside highsec.

In reality its going to be another set of space that will end up be solely dominated by large alliances that can maintain a presence in wormhole system.

Changes to the system... I don't know yet but I'd say at least open them upto cyno's

Dirk Magnum
Blue Republic
RvB - BLUE Republic
Posted - 2009.01.26 20:34:00 - [2]
 

Hopefully you can get "stuck" in these systems. Maybe even for days at a time. That'll put a lot of people off from wormholes, while allowing their resources to be exploited by the actual pioneers in this game. That is to say, people who take risks and have been waiting for a never-before-seen game mechanic like isolated, unpredictable space.

Of course I don't hold out hope that this will happen. Too much whining would be generated.

Lui Kai
Better Than You
Posted - 2009.01.26 20:37:00 - [3]
 

Do you really believe that allowing cynos will make failcorp newballiances more likely to utilize these systems instead of dedicated, large powerblocks?

Maintaining a POS shouldn't be as hard as people are making it.

Step 1 - bring in a Rorqual or two.
Step 2 - Anchor moons.
Step 3 - Continue normal operations until wormhole closes.
Step 4 - Scan out new exit wormhole. See where it goes. If it goes to a convenient location, return to 3.
Step 5 - If wormhole goes somewhere bad, have large crew clone jump to the rorqs and board throw-away industrials.
Step 6 - Throw-away industrials back-and-forth over and over through inconvenient wormhole until it closes. Return to Step 4.

Ultimately, it won't be incredibly different from existing mechanics - just requiring a more dedicated logistics team, and Rorqual alts.

Chribba
Otherworld Enterprises
Otherworld Empire
Posted - 2009.01.26 20:39:00 - [4]
 

Yes, they have Veldspar in them.

War Fairy
Posted - 2009.01.26 20:40:00 - [5]
 

Dev comments in the dev blog thread say no clone jumping into wormhole systems.

Squably
Minmatar
Invenio Inceptum
Posted - 2009.01.26 20:41:00 - [6]
 

They will only be in delve

MotherMoon
Huang Yinglong
Posted - 2009.01.26 20:41:00 - [7]
 

Edited by: MotherMoon on 26/01/2009 20:42:02
Originally by: Lui Kai
Do you really believe that allowing cynos will make failcorp newballiances more likely to utilize these systems instead of dedicated, large powerblocks?

Quote:
Dev comments in the dev blog thread say no clone jumping into wormhole systems.


Maintaining a POS shouldn't be as hard as people are making it.

Step 1 - bring in a Rorqual or two.
Step 2 - Anchor moons.
Step 3 - Continue normal operations until wormhole closes.
Step 4 - Scan out new exit wormhole. See where it goes. If it goes to a convenient location, return to 3.
Step 5 - If wormhole goes somewhere bad, have large crew clone jump to the rorqs and board throw-away industrials.
Step 6 - Throw-away industrials back-and-forth over and over through inconvenient wormhole until it closes. Return to Step 4.

Ultimately, it won't be incredibly different from existing mechanics - just requiring a more dedicated logistics team, and Rorqual alts.



your forgetting the part where your systems in 0.0 space are being taken over while you spend all your time trying to get un-lost in space by forcing your system tp jump around randomly, hopefully one day making it back to where you want it.

space is big mate.

In fact don't forget they said that the other wormhole systems might be the only way out some times, could become a nightmare...

kinda like a mini-eve eden. Basically we'll be playing out the intro movie all over again.

hopefully we can someday terraform the planets we find and set up outposts on planets.

ToxicFire
Phoenix Knights
Posted - 2009.01.26 20:47:00 - [8]
 

Originally by: Lui Kai
Do you really believe that allowing cynos will make failcorp newballiances more likely to utilize these systems instead of dedicated, large powerblocks?

Maintaining a POS shouldn't be as hard as people are making it.

Step 1 - bring in a Rorqual or two.
Step 2 - Anchor moons.
Step 3 - Continue normal operations until wormhole closes.
Step 4 - Scan out new exit wormhole. See where it goes. If it goes to a convenient location, return to 3.
Step 5 - If wormhole goes somewhere bad, have large crew clone jump to the rorqs and board throw-away industrials.
Step 6 - Throw-away industrials back-and-forth over and over through inconvenient wormhole until it closes. Return to Step 4.

Ultimately, it won't be incredibly different from existing mechanics - just requiring a more dedicated logistics team, and Rorqual alts.


Flaw one, what if the mass limit on the wormhole doesn't allow a rorq in
Flaw two, what if the entrance is in high sec you can't get your rorq in.
Flaw three, im guessing slightly at this but I bet you won't be able to cyno out of the system.

I overlooked the mass limit first time i read that blog now im slowly getting convinced it will be the flaw that underpins the entire wormhole thing. We haven't seen the ranges this will come under and its something most ppl will probably overlook initially its going to put a limit on what ships, number of ppl and number of trips you can get into a zone, in affect putting an artificial limit on how much can be harvested.

Infact I'd say it even deters the smaller newer corps that don't have the high end equipment because quite often they'll have to make more trips through the wormhole to get the material out eating up at its mass limit.

Faife
Dreddit
Test Alliance Please Ignore
Posted - 2009.01.26 20:51:00 - [9]
 

Originally by: Squably
They will only be in delve


your sig got nerfed.

Pestilent Industries
Posted - 2009.01.26 21:04:00 - [10]
 

The strong and intelligent players will reap the wealth from this space. Lazy, dumb, and ignorant players will continue to run missions and pay outrageous prices for the tech 3 ships created from those who utilize the new content.

Cleopatrra
Gallente
Swag Co.
Sandbox Bullies
Posted - 2009.01.26 21:19:00 - [11]
 

Sounds like the perfect job for orcas if you ask me.

Thargat
Caldari
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Posted - 2009.01.26 21:22:00 - [12]
 

Originally by: Squably
They will only be in delve

I can deny this. Period Basis tho is a given.

Lui Kai
Better Than You
Posted - 2009.01.26 21:23:00 - [13]
 

Originally by: ToxicFire

Flaw one, what if the mass limit on the wormhole doesn't allow a rorq in
Flaw two, what if the entrance is in high sec you can't get your rorq in.
Flaw three, im guessing slightly at this but I bet you won't be able to cyno out of the system.



1 & 2 - Like any other 0.0, there will be systems that aren't worth the work to utilize.

3. No, you can't cyno out - thus why you'd want a Rorq alt, not a main. The purpose of the Rorq alt is ore compression & being the "anchor" to that system that you can clone jump to.

Now if, as the above poster suggested, clone jumping into wormhole systems also doesn't work - then the above system still works, just far far far more effort involved. Probably to the point where it's no long worth the trouble.

War Fairy
Posted - 2009.01.26 22:25:00 - [14]
 

Every system has a worm hole out. Every worm hole is 2 way.

Ain't no thing.

Find the worm hole in the system you're in. Stick you head out. If it's a good location then run supplies in/out. If it's in a bad location crash it and scan the next one.

This is why they're already going back to the drawing board according to the dev blog thread.

Blastil
Posted - 2009.01.26 22:31:00 - [15]
 

This will be a wonderful mechanic for pirates who will live in between the in between space out of Orca's and carriers as well as small POSes.

McTard
Posted - 2009.01.26 22:36:00 - [16]
 

I intend to attempt to find wormholes, bring in a lazer ship of somekind with plenty of nanite paste in the hold and just live and gank in the damn thing untill someone gets me. Who cares if it moves around, all the better in fact.

Venduras
Posted - 2009.01.26 22:50:00 - [17]
 

Being stuck in a new system would be neat actually, doing whatever you want without having to bother yourself keeping the enemy out and then come out with riches when a new wormhole opens up.

Would suck if your hidden away system suddenly got a wormhole to Rancer though Shocked

Lochmar Fiendhiem
Caldari
International Multi-Player Consortium
Posted - 2009.01.26 22:51:00 - [18]
 

Originally by: McTard
I intend to attempt to find wormholes, bring in a lazer ship of somekind with plenty of nanite paste in the hold and just live and gank in the damn thing untill someone gets me. Who cares if it moves around, all the better in fact.



dont forget to train for t2 sentries!

Vaal Erit
Science and Trade Institute
Posted - 2009.01.26 23:08:00 - [19]
 

Wormholes are basically exploration 2.0 (or what exploration should have been released as). Instead of scanning out a hidden belt, you scan a wormhole that leads to a hidden belt. Instead of scanning out a cosmic anomaly with rats, you scan out a wormhole that leads to a system with rats or an agent that gives you a mission with rats. Instead of scanning out radar complexes, you will scan out t3 part complexes, etc, etc, etc.

I'm not exactly sure where the "great risks" are going to come from as no one is going to camp a wormhole (maybe you can see a raven go through one and wait till he is done and gank him on the way out?) since there are thousands of them and we all know how risky NPCs are Rolling Eyes

I pray to ishtar jesus that they make wormholes easy to scan out, even with max skills a good complex can take an hour to scan and good lord is that ever zzzzzzzz.

Imperator Jora'h
Posted - 2009.01.26 23:11:00 - [20]
 

Originally by: Lui Kai
Step 1 - bring in a Rorqual or two.
Step 2 - Anchor moons.
Step 3 - Continue normal operations until wormhole closes.
Step 4 - Scan out new exit wormhole. See where it goes. If it goes to a convenient location, return to 3.
Step 5 - If wormhole goes somewhere bad, have large crew clone jump to the rorqs and board throw-away industrials.
Step 6 - Throw-away industrials back-and-forth over and over through inconvenient wormhole until it closes. Return to Step 4.



Step 5 is in error.

The Devs in the Comment section were quite clear that the only way into wormhole space was via wormhole. No clone jumps, no cynos. In fact they said if you manage to enter wormhole space any other way than via a wormhole it is an exploit.

Waukesha
Amarr
Invictus Australis
Northern Coalition.
Posted - 2009.01.26 23:14:00 - [21]
 

Can jump portl to systems after the worm hole has closed?

Imperator Jora'h
Posted - 2009.01.26 23:20:00 - [22]
 

Originally by: Waukesha
Can jump portl to systems after the worm hole has closed?


Nope.

You need to find a new exit. If for some reason you cannot find the exit (ran out of probes, probe ship is blown up or something) then hope a friend finds you or pod yourself back to your medical clone.

Marcus Xavier
Minmatar
Xavier Institute for Higher Learning
Posted - 2009.01.26 23:33:00 - [23]
 

Originally by: Chribba
Yes, they have Veldspar in them.


Having read the comments in the entire thread, this is the only truth. Unless.... someone wants to post the URL to this new information that folks have.


Armoured C
Gallente
Noir.
Noir. Mercenary Group
Posted - 2009.01.26 23:34:00 - [24]
 

would love to be stuck in unchartered space, make it feel more realisteic that you have to camp out and maybe bring friends like you would if you went to explore say a moutian, you would bring travelling companions, i plan on doing exploration and bring a camp with me like a hauler , a damage dealing ship.

hopefully we can make exploration fleets =)

ToxicFire
Phoenix Knights
Posted - 2009.01.26 23:38:00 - [25]
 

Originally by: Marcus Xavier
Originally by: Chribba
Yes, they have Veldspar in them.


Having read the comments in the entire thread, this is the only truth. Unless.... someone wants to post the URL to this new information that folks have.




Dev Blog
Enjoy!

ToxicFire
Phoenix Knights
Posted - 2009.01.26 23:44:00 - [26]
 

Originally by: Armoured C
would love to be stuck in unchartered space, make it feel more realisteic that you have to camp out and maybe bring friends like you would if you went to explore say a moutian, you would bring travelling companions, i plan on doing exploration and bring a camp with me like a hauler , a damage dealing ship.

hopefully we can make exploration fleets =)


All good and well until you run out of that carton of quafe and need to goto the station only to realise the only exit now is in the depths of some alliances space and you don't really stand a chance of making it out alive and can't really continue to do anything without said quafe. I've done the living out of a can in the bum end of nowhere in 0.0.

In the end its not really worth it, if your there for isk you quickly run out of space to store stuff before u can make a drop off, if your there for pvp its dictated by the wormhole whats likely to arrive you could quite literally have a system who's only access jumps around empty 0.0 systems for months at a time.

Alora Venoda
GalTech
Whiskey Creek Alliance
Posted - 2009.01.26 23:54:00 - [27]
 

i think a HUGE factor that none of us are really considering is the new NPC's that will inhabit this wormhole space. the dev blog hints that they will have advanced AI and will not be like any NPC's we have encountered before.

well, the worst case scenario i can think of would be NPC's that act like player pirates... what if these NPC's have "gatecamps" and podkill after they gank you? or what if these NPC's actually probe you out and hunt you down? what if the NPC's have their own capital ships? or drones? i don't think anyone would want to colonize or even stay very long in a system with such forces to contend with.

although if the NPC's are really that dangerous, i can imagine many would-be wormhole explorers would be locked out because they operate mostly solo or in small gangs, and simply could not survive against these new NPC's.

regardless, i am sure the first few encounters will be unforgettable and very entertaining to read about.

ReallyDeadKenny
Destructive Influence
Northern Coalition.
Posted - 2009.01.27 00:03:00 - [28]
 

Originally by: Thargat
Originally by: Squably
They will only be in delve

I can deny this. Period Basis tho is a given.
Confirming this.

Armoured C
Gallente
Noir.
Noir. Mercenary Group
Posted - 2009.01.27 00:05:00 - [29]
 

Originally by: ToxicFire
Originally by: Armoured C
would love to be stuck in unchartered space, make it feel more realisteic that you have to camp out and maybe bring friends like you would if you went to explore say a moutian, you would bring travelling companions, i plan on doing exploration and bring a camp with me like a hauler , a damage dealing ship.

hopefully we can make exploration fleets =)


All good and well until you run out of that carton of quafe and need to goto the station only to realise the only exit now is in the depths of some alliances space and you don't really stand a chance of making it out alive and can't really continue to do anything without said quafe. I've done the living out of a can in the bum end of nowhere in 0.0.

In the end its not really worth it, if your there for isk you quickly run out of space to store stuff before u can make a drop off, if your there for pvp its dictated by the wormhole whats likely to arrive you could quite literally have a system who's only access jumps around empty 0.0 systems for months at a time.


just because the exit is to a enemy system doesnt mean i have to go through i could wait for the exits change again to have better luck at getting out.

i havnt heard anywhere that you have to take the route that is givin to you or that you cant wait, i am quietly confident :)

ToxicFire
Phoenix Knights
Posted - 2009.01.27 01:08:00 - [30]
 

Edited by: ToxicFire on 27/01/2009 01:12:08

Cleaned to prevent pyramid quotes
Originally by: Armoured C

just because the exit is to a enemy system doesnt mean i have to go through i could wait for the exits change again to have better luck at getting out.

i havnt heard anywhere that you have to take the route that is givin to you or that you cant wait, i am quietly confident :)


True your not forced to take the exit wormhole... but you do realise the chances are the exit wormholes could remain from anywhere between a few hours to weeks if unused, really gonna give up weeks of game play?


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