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Gierling
Gallente
The Scope
Posted - 2009.01.26 18:22:00 - [1]
 

I had a big fancy post but the demon of lost internet posts swallowed it whole. So I'll surmise.

Eve has a lot of carreers, few of these have dedicated ships, those that do have few compared to Combat. Combat, hauling, mining and industry have ships in that order of abundance.

When a carreer doesn't have a dedicated shiptype it is marginilized, as players must perform it with the tools avalable (combat ships) it eventually gets watered down so it can be done reasonably with the tools available. This is the homogenization of the Eve Experience.

Can we please have dedicated exploration ships, and No changing the bonus on the imicus doesn't count.

New classes such as how destroyers and BC's were introduced. Also while we are at it, dedicated salvagers, science vessels, etc would be nice too.

This also would help with another problem Eve has, the overwhelming preponderance of combat ships in space. The game could use Civilian player vessels, as well as Civilian NPC's and encounters to increase immersion.

Imagine how much fun it would be if pirates could warp to somewhere in lowsec and encounter a passenger vessel that they could ransom.

Don't even get me started on the need for passenger liners and tourism/ferrying as a possible newbie profession.

Cyprus Black
Caldari
Perkone
Posted - 2009.01.26 18:31:00 - [2]
 

It's a great time to do this with T3 ships.

flashfreaking
LFC
Executive Outcomes
Posted - 2009.01.26 18:33:00 - [3]
 

Yes, let's continue spamming the frigging eve universe with new shipclasses, we sure as hell don't have enough of them...

Also: Covert Ops: USE THEM

Faife
Dreddit
Test Alliance Please Ignore
Posted - 2009.01.26 18:36:00 - [4]
 

Originally by: Gierling
Don't even get me started on the need for passenger liners and tourism/ferrying as a possible newbie profession.


i promise i wont.

LetsDoThis
Posted - 2009.01.26 18:39:00 - [5]
 

I would also like a ship dedicated to being able to perform solo exploration.

IMO the pilgrim with a scan time bonus would be perfect. Get rid of the Cyno bonus and nos/neut bonus, replace with a cargo bonus and scan time bonus. Done, exploration ship.

Pesky LaRue
Brotherhood Of Fallen Angels
Etherium Cartel
Posted - 2009.01.26 18:40:00 - [6]
 

Originally by: Gierling


Can we please have dedicated exploration ships, and No changing the bonus on the imicus doesn't count.


whilst I'm not disagreeing, we do already have the covert ops ships that have a bonus for exploration so there is already a ship dedicated to this.

again, i would personally like to see the scanning bonus added to Force Recon ships and would also be very happy with dedicated exploration ships (i explore a lot), I don't feel that this career is currently starved for a task-specific vessel

Wagstaff
The Program
Controlled Chaos
Posted - 2009.01.26 18:42:00 - [7]
 

Why don't you think astrometrics frigates and covert ops ships count?

Nova Fox
Gallente
Novafox Shipyards
Posted - 2009.01.26 18:43:00 - [8]
 

Edited by: Nova Fox on 26/01/2009 18:43:46
I designed 4 hulls which are going though a redesign entirely now both in apperance and function, but I have to wait for apocthrica to finish up before redoing the paperwork side to see how all the tweaks in exploration work out including thier original role as harvester of a scientific resource primary role, exploration secondary role, and archealogy ships tritary role. Similar to ores main miner, ice miner, and gas miner roles are.

I doubt ccp will allow these ships into the game though.

Gunnanmon
Gallente
PURPLE.
Posted - 2009.01.26 18:49:00 - [9]
 

I believe there are exploration ships out there atm.

Although I could be wrong.

Nova Fox
Gallente
Novafox Shipyards
Posted - 2009.01.26 18:50:00 - [10]
 

I think hes referring to science vessels, something to get the brainiac lab tweakers out of thier labs and into space.

Gunnanmon
Gallente
PURPLE.
Posted - 2009.01.26 18:52:00 - [11]
 

Originally by: Nova Fox
I think hes referring to science vessels, something to get the brainiac lab tweakers out of thier labs and into space.


And lose that valuable +5 implant training time?

Nova Fox
Gallente
Novafox Shipyards
Posted - 2009.01.26 18:53:00 - [12]
 

Thats why you got to make the gold theyll be digging for worth it.

LaVista Vista
Conservative Shenanigans Party
Posted - 2009.01.26 18:58:00 - [13]
 

Originally by: flashfreaking
Yes, let's continue spamming the frigging eve universe with new shipclasses, we sure as hell don't have enough of them...

Also: Covert Ops: USE THEM

If you read the dev-blog you would realize that there will be a new probe-launcher which will require little in terms of CPU and pg.

Gierling
Gallente
The Scope
Posted - 2009.01.26 19:01:00 - [14]
 

I mean tech I hulls (preferebly) with all of thier bonuses devoted to a certain task. And thier own skill.

Covert ops really don't fit that bill, having a scan bonus does not an exploration ship make. Plus they require a great deal of skills that are in no way shape or form related to exploration to fly.

As far as teh astrometric frigs, they are bastardized **** poor and inadaquete. Why on Earth would I buy a ship for exploration with a bonus to small hybrid damage.

Like I said, the combat archetype is not a good model for every apsect of eve and forcing us to use existing combat ships (or haulers) really just makes the whole game blander, and it strangles any really new innovative ideas in thier infancy.


Tippia
Caldari
Sunshine and Lollipops
Posted - 2009.01.26 19:04:00 - [15]
 

Originally by: LaVista Vista
Originally by: flashfreaking
Yes, let's continue spamming the frigging eve universe with new shipclasses, we sure as hell don't have enough of them...

Also: Covert Ops: USE THEM
If you read the dev-blog you would realize that there will be a new probe-launcher which will require little in terms of CPU and pg.
Yeees…? That doesn't really change the point that we already have exploration vessels. The astrometrics ships don't give any bonuses to fitting the equipment, so in that regard, nothing will change with the new probe launchers.

What they do give you is a bonus to using them. Unless the new mechanics are completely devoid of scanning/launch time, the suggestion still stands: CovOps, use them!

Either way (in fact, even more so with the new launchers), we don't really seem to need more ship classes to deal with the wormholes.

Daplat Mode
Mountain Militia
Mountain Sprouts
Posted - 2009.01.26 19:25:00 - [16]
 

Originally by: LetsDoThis

IMO the pilgrim with a scan time bonus would be perfect. Get rid of the Cyno bonus and nos/neut bonus, replace with a cargo bonus and scan time bonus. Done, exploration ship.


LOL, why dont we just completely ruin the pilgrim to save you a trip to station? That sounds like a great idea! Just kidding, anybody else care to spread some mindless drivel today?Laughing

Alora Venoda
GalTech
Whiskey Creek Alliance
Posted - 2009.01.26 19:28:00 - [17]
 

a new wormhole ship/module could have some bonus that gets them through the wormhole with less damage to its stability.

and yes i agree that a real "exploration ship" would stand out at the profession such that any other ship is obsolete in that role, like how the hulk is for mining. although for most explorers, the covert ops is already like that.

i still would like to see a real salvage ship though, or at least give some bonuses to destroyers as salvagers since that's what they are most often used for anyway. for example, it could be a sort of "salvage barge" with specialized modules (akin to strip miners) that are both tractor beams and salvagers, with increased range of course. and their cargo space would be at least 3000 m3.

Arkeladin
Posted - 2009.01.26 19:29:00 - [18]
 

Originally by: Gierling
I had a big fancy post but the demon of lost internet posts swallowed it whole. So I'll surmise.

Eve has a lot of carreers, few of these have dedicated ships, those that do have few compared to Combat. Combat, hauling, mining and industry have ships in that order of abundance.

When a carreer doesn't have a dedicated shiptype it is marginilized, as players must perform it with the tools avalable (combat ships) it eventually gets watered down so it can be done reasonably with the tools available. This is the homogenization of the Eve Experience.

Can we please have dedicated exploration ships, and No changing the bonus on the imicus doesn't count.

New classes such as how destroyers and BC's were introduced. Also while we are at it, dedicated salvagers, science vessels, etc would be nice too.

This also would help with another problem Eve has, the overwhelming preponderance of combat ships in space. The game could use Civilian player vessels, as well as Civilian NPC's and encounters to increase immersion.

Imagine how much fun it would be if pirates could warp to somewhere in lowsec and encounter a passenger vessel that they could ransom.

Don't even get me started on the need for passenger liners and tourism/ferrying as a possible newbie profession.


Yeesh...Can you be any MORE ignorant as to how ships are designed/working in EvE?

T1 ships, witht he SOLE exception of the EW frigates/cruisers, are generalist ships. Those are the jack-of-all-trades ones.

T2 are SPEICIALIST ships, designed around a certain role.

The CovOps ships are designed around scouting - and have BONUSES for using scanners, etc.

They fill your need, AND fit the way that all other ships are designed.

So, what's your problem? You want a specialist ship, you have 'em.

Oh, what's that, You want a insurable specialist ship that does noting but scan probing? Not Gonna Happen - too niche.

Maybe when T3 rolls around you can. Depends on what the devs do, and what they make available.

Until then, SUCK IT UP and use covops. "Don't wanna" is NEVER a excuse, anywhere. Don't wanna? SO WHAT. Suck it up and get over yourself.

Taniv
Scrutari
Posted - 2009.01.26 19:42:00 - [19]
 

I would be content with replacing one or both combat bonuses on covert ops ships with something of actual value. If you took one of the combat bonuses off and added a bonus to probe strength, or range, or maybe to something related to wormholes it would feel pretty good.

I agree that covert ops ships are the exploration ships of EVE, it would just be nice if they were not saddled with silly bonuses that are unrelated and almost always useless.

I have considered the merit of creation of a combat ready exploration ship, since combat is integral to all exploration. I think in the end, I would rather see sites made that might not require combat. Not sure if that is viable, but really the combat in a radar site is a joke anyway, why not try to think up some alternate challenge to keep them interesting.

(As a side note, yesterday I had a fit of laughter after realizing that the small projectile certificate was suggested to fly my Cheetah. Right, I can definitely put guns on that...)

LetsDoThis
Posted - 2009.01.26 19:49:00 - [20]
 

Originally by: Daplat Mode
Originally by: LetsDoThis

IMO the pilgrim with a scan time bonus would be perfect. Get rid of the Cyno bonus and nos/neut bonus, replace with a cargo bonus and scan time bonus. Done, exploration ship.


LOL, why dont we just completely ruin the pilgrim to save you a trip to station? That sounds like a great idea! Just kidding, anybody else care to spread some mindless drivel today?Laughing

You read what you want to read.
I was describing an ideal exploration ship, not proposing a new pilgrim.

Tippia
Caldari
Sunshine and Lollipops
Posted - 2009.01.26 19:52:00 - [21]
 

Originally by: Taniv
I agree that covert ops ships are the exploration ships of EVE, it would just be nice if they were not saddled with silly bonuses that are unrelated and almost always useless.
True enough, but they're just inheriting the T1 hull bonuses, like all T2 ships.

No point in complaning, them are the rules! (Or some such… Razz)

Vaal Erit
Science and Trade Institute
Posted - 2009.01.26 19:55:00 - [22]
 

I think it is boring if ships have one purpose with one cookie-cutter fit. Isn't it more interesting if a few different ships can do something instead of well I want to salvage and there is one ship that does it.

Originally by: Gierling
This also would help with another problem Eve has, the overwhelming preponderance of combat ships in space.


Either a huge troll or a huge moron.

Nova Fox
Gallente
Novafox Shipyards
Posted - 2009.01.26 19:56:00 - [23]
 

The ships i fan designed are three fold, primary harvest of new resource, secondary exploration, tritary archealogy.

LetsDoThis
Posted - 2009.01.26 20:03:00 - [24]
 

Originally by: Taniv
I would be content with replacing one or both combat bonuses on covert ops ships with something of actual value. If you took one of the combat bonuses off and added a bonus to probe strength, or range, or maybe to something related to wormholes it would feel pretty good.

I agree that covert ops ships are the exploration ships of EVE, it would just be nice if they were not saddled with silly bonuses that are unrelated and almost always useless.

I have considered the merit of creation of a combat ready exploration ship, since combat is integral to all exploration. I think in the end, I would rather see sites made that might not require combat. Not sure if that is viable, but really the combat in a radar site is a joke anyway, why not try to think up some alternate challenge to keep them interesting.

(As a side note, yesterday I had a fit of laughter after realizing that the small projectile certificate was suggested to fly my Cheetah. Right, I can definitely put guns on that...)

Covert ops are the current way to find exploration sites.
No covert ops can actually complete an exploration site though. Even if its just a hacking/archeology/salvage site, you need another ship to kill/tank the rat spawns.

Additionally, covert ops were created long before exploration was a part of the game. Not only do they find exploration sites very well, but also other ships in space, and POS.

You wouldn't want exploration ships to take that same role. It is widely believed that in order for an exploration ship to be balanced that it should not share the same role of a cov-ops while being a larger hull and combat bonus.

I do solo exploration in (lowsec) as my main form of playstyle.
The qualities an exploration vessel would Ideally have is:
-diverse hi/mid/lo slots
-a combat bonus for drones
-cov-ops CPU bonus
-exploration scan-probe only bonus
-larger cargobay

Basically, a pilgrim with minor modifications.

Dr Ming
Mindworks
Posted - 2009.01.26 20:17:00 - [25]
 

Ahem...

Marauders.

Orca.

Rorqual.

Carriers.


EVE has tons of exploration ships. They just didn't have anything to explore.

Oh. The pirate would just blow up your silly passenger liner for the kill mail and then try and pod everyone on board for the squishes.

Taniv
Scrutari
Posted - 2009.01.26 20:41:00 - [26]
 

Originally by: LetsDoThis

Covert ops are the current way to find exploration sites.
No covert ops can actually complete an exploration site though. Even if its just a hacking/archeology/salvage site, you need another ship to kill/tank the rat spawns.


I am well aware of what exploration consists of, it is my primary source of income. I was suggesting that the somewhat laughable (once in a combat ship) rat spawns in hack/arch/sal sites could be replaced with some more interesting challenge that would allow a non-combat ship (eg: covert ops) to complete the sites alone. I am not sure what that challenge would be, I was just musing about a consideration I have had in the past related to the discussion of needing a combat ready exploration ship.

Squably
Minmatar
Invenio Inceptum
Posted - 2009.01.26 20:43:00 - [27]
 

really there is, its called a covert op

Gierling
Gallente
The Scope
Posted - 2009.01.26 21:28:00 - [28]
 

Originally by: Arkeladin

Yeesh...Can you be any MORE ignorant as to how ships are designed/working in EvE?

T1 ships, witht he SOLE exception of the EW frigates/cruisers, are generalist ships. Those are the jack-of-all-trades ones.



Haulers, Mining barges...

Your mistaking job and role, Tech I ships have a dedicated Job, they do not have defined roles.

Combat is a Job, so is mining. The mining barge example here is good. The miners get a Tech I ship so that they can mine, then the tech II variants are more specialized (Ice mining, deep core mining, low sec mining). Same for haulers, you get basic ships designed for the job at Tech I, and then you get specialization in Tech II (Blockade running or deep Space transport).

Originally by: Arkeladin

T2 are SPEICIALIST ships, designed around a certain role.

The CovOps ships are designed around scouting - and have BONUSES for using scanners, etc.

They fill your need, AND fit the way that all other ships are designed.

So, what's your problem? You want a specialist ship, you have 'em.




Not particularly, The Covert Ops can't actually do anything productive after finding anything and it really is a poor choice to begin with. Its a combat vessel designed for scouting, recon and setting up ambushes.

This is what I was talking about when I said Homogenization, forcing new features and development to conform to existing ships really compresses the design space considerably. There are boundless ideas that they could incorporate into exploration, however if they have to make it workable with a covert ops they have to build around an existing ship. They either have to scale back thier ideas or gimp the covert ops ability to do its existing job.

Originally by: Arkeladin

Oh, what's that, You want a insurable specialist ship that does noting but scan probing? Not Gonna Happen - too niche.



No I want a tech I ship that represents an alternative play and character development path that enables and interacts with different mechanics then the existing Combat mechanics. Probing may be an area of overlap but it really shouldn't be the end all be all of "exploration". If Exploration doesn't behave or feel different from Scanning out a domi in a safespot theres really no point in adding it is there.

CCP wants to broaden the game, and I think they need new tech I ships to do it (and then Tech II versions of these ships down the line).

I can remember how bland Mining was before mining barges were released, and really they've enabled a lot of very interesting and DISTINCT development for the game that we really could not have done if we were still all mining in apocs.

Heck using your logic, imagine if there were no such thing as industrials, and you had to haul everything around in BS. You could technically do it, however you could never do it as well, nor could you ever distinguish it as a profession or a character development path.

Originally by: Arkeladin

Maybe when T3 rolls around you can. Depends on what the devs do, and what they make available.

Until then, SUCK IT UP and use covops. "Don't wanna" is NEVER a excuse, anywhere. Don't wanna? SO WHAT. Suck it up and get over yourself.



Actually I don't plan on even doing exploration, my interest here is solely in the health of the game and in sound game design. The game experience shouldn't be the same for everyone, and making everyone have to be primarily a combat character isn't sound. They've made some effort to get away from that with Industrials, freighters mining barges etc, however there needs to be more effort there.

Also as an aside, it seems from the dev blog like a good exploration ship should have a relatively low mass. We could see the design space expanded with different types of exploration ships, say Amarr ships having good defenses, Minmater having very low mass, caldari, being good at scanning, and the Gallente ones being able to defend themselves with drones.

Gierling
Gallente
The Scope
Posted - 2009.01.26 21:38:00 - [29]
 

Originally by: Vaal Erit


Originally by: Gierling
This also would help with another problem Eve has, the overwhelming preponderance of combat ships in space.


Either a huge troll or a huge moron.


No, I simply don't think that its immersive to only have combat ships. Last time you took a flight, did you fly in a Jetfighter, or a bomber? Did you see planes other then jetfighters or bombers in the air?

Of course you took a passenger craft and saw predominately civil traffic, recreation craft, newscopters, research craft, airliners, etc etc.

It doesn't make any sense to never see civilian traffic in space, which would also open up a lot of design space for new features and play elements.

If eve is to realize its promise it needs to have more depth and width then just the pew-pew. You have to make it possible for players to spend thier entire time in Eve without ever blowing up another ship and still have the experience be enjoyable.

Really without haulers, miners, traders, ceo's etc the game wouldn't be as interesting as it is. All I'm saying is that more carreer types with more explicit support for those carreer types is good for the game in the long run. A carreer that involves flying a ship should have its own ship, its own character progression, and its own play style.

PLUS it adds immersion and depth, it adds that living breathing environment that makes doing anything in Eve so rewarding.


Gierling
Gallente
The Scope
Posted - 2009.01.26 21:39:00 - [30]
 

Originally by: Dr Ming
Ahem...

Marauders.

Orca.

Rorqual.

Carriers.


EVE has tons of exploration ships. They just didn't have anything to explore.

Oh. The pirate would just blow up your silly passenger liner for the kill mail and then try and pod everyone on board for the squishes.


Most of those have relatively high mass, which won't interact well with the wormhole mechanic unless you completely take all the teeth out of the wormhole mechanic to begin with.


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