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Sobach
Fourth Circle
Total Comfort
Posted - 2009.01.24 21:25:00 - [31]
 

Originally by: Sokratesz

There was good reason to expect her to be dead even without the decapitation although a section will have to confirm this. As analysis has proven and the guy I quoted linked, these kind of killers often have a clear target without intention to kill anyone else so what you rather have, her dead and him killed or her dead and him caught able to be properly punished for what he has done, and the family given the satisfaction of learning the story of how and why exactly.


how 'bout him dead and at least a chance to save her?

and on the subject of the victim's family, I'm just gonna go out on a limb here and guess they would probably prefer to see him dead, instead of getting free lunch for the next 10 to 20 years, if even that. If someone killed my daughter and cut her head off, there would be no words to describe what I'd do to her killer.


Kravick Drasari
Posted - 2009.01.24 22:06:00 - [32]
 

Originally by: Sobach


If someone killed my daughter and cut her head off, there would be no words to describe what I'd do to her killer.




You're right. There wouldn't be any words that would describe it, but there sure as hell would be actions. Evil or Very Mad

Shirley Serious
Amarr
The Khanid Sisters of Athra
Posted - 2009.01.24 22:09:00 - [33]
 

here's a couple more stories with a bit more info.

http://www.collegiatetimes.com/stories/2009/01/22/stabbing_death_in_donaldson_brown
http://www.news.com.au/dailytelegraph/story/0,22049,24951577-5001021,00.html?from=public_rss

Killer was definitely prepared, and was calm, talked quietly with victim, then the violence happened.

Thing is, with these cases, is that the killer isn't a danger to anyone other than their victim. Wouldn't be surprised if the officer who arrested him, found him to be sitting on the ground crying, cradling the head in his hands. These people seem to do that.

Story where the killer's landlord said he behaved funny.
http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,482524,00.html

Every dead perpetrator is a wasted resource, as while they are alive, they can be broken down by psych people, to find out more about what makes people do stuff like this.

Possibly this murder could have been prevented, but that would have required a comprehensive network of surveillance and informing on people, which has it's own unpleasant implications.

How long does it take someone to realise what's going on, then act?

1. You're having a coffee, everything seems normal.
2. Some guy out of your line of sight pulls a knife, then stabs someone.
3. You hear a scream, or squelch or something.
4. You think "Wtf was that?"
5. You grasp the situation.
6. You retrieve your weapon.
7. You arm it.
8. You have an opportunity to fire.

How long does that take?

Sokratesz
Rionnag Alba
Northern Coalition.
Posted - 2009.01.24 22:14:00 - [34]
 

Nicely done Shirley.

bff Jill
Posted - 2009.01.24 22:29:00 - [35]
 

So i guess the moral of the story is, don't undock because nowhere is safe.

Sobach
Fourth Circle
Total Comfort
Posted - 2009.01.24 22:39:00 - [36]
 

Originally by: Shirley Serious


Every dead perpetrator is a wasted resource, as while they are alive, they can be broken down by psych people, to find out more about what makes people do stuff like this.


O_o How 'bout because he was nuts!?

In all honesty, there are as many reasons why one human would hurt another as there are humans alive. Knowing that this guy decided to kill someone else because Bobby kicked him in 4th grade/dad left him when he was a kid/mom never loved him/the voice inside his head told him to do it, isn't going to do anything.

Originally by: Shirley Serious


Possibly this murder could have been prevented, but that would have required a comprehensive network of surveillance and informing on people, which has it's own unpleasant implications.

How long does it take someone to realise what's going on, then act?

1. You're having a coffee, everything seems normal.
2. Some guy out of your line of sight pulls a knife, then stabs someone.
3. You hear a scream, or squelch or something.
4. You think "Wtf was that?"
5. You grasp the situation.
6. You retrieve your weapon.
7. You arm it.
8. You have an opportunity to fire.

How long does that take?


Actually I beg to differ, no amount surveillance could have prevented this from happening. It's obvious nobody thought he was thinking of killing anyone, his victim certainly didn't expect it.

as for the reaction time question, 1-4 really depends on where I am, but 5-7 really only takes as long as for me to draw my weapon, and given the sparsely populated cafe, 8 will probably occur the same time as 7.

Sokratesz
Rionnag Alba
Northern Coalition.
Posted - 2009.01.24 22:41:00 - [37]
 

Originally by: Sobach

O_o How 'bout because he was nuts!?

In all honesty, there are as many reasons why one human would hurt another as there are humans alive. Knowing that this guy decided to kill someone else because Bobby kicked him in 4th grade/dad left him when he was a kid/mom never loved him/the voice inside his head told him to do it, isn't going to do anything.


It may not save this girl but it may save many in the future, its called learning. People like that make very interesting test cases and its a *lot* more complicated than you make it out to be.

bff Jill
Posted - 2009.01.24 22:44:00 - [38]
 

Sometimes i fantasize about this sort of thing. But i don't do it because i don't want to hurt anybody. D=

Sobach
Fourth Circle
Total Comfort
Posted - 2009.01.24 23:14:00 - [39]
 

Originally by: Sokratesz


It may not save this girl but it may save many in the future, its called learning. People like that make very interesting test cases and its a *lot* more complicated than you make it out to be.


Obviously my sarcasm was lost on you. It's not as if we know nothing about psychology, we already know a lot, but how much has that helped? Too many parents today would rather have the TV/internet/anti-depressants do their parenting for them, and then blame everything else but themselves when their kid snaps. Honestly, how would knowing the reason why he decided to kill her help prevent others? please, I really would like to know.

We know what causes road rage, does that help prevent anyone from getting into road rage? Rolling Eyes


Compared to the chance of saving the victim, the chance to find out the reason behind his emo-rage is really not very high on my priority list. If it is on yours, then all I can say is you and I operate on a very different set of values and principals.

Sokratesz
Rionnag Alba
Northern Coalition.
Posted - 2009.01.24 23:22:00 - [40]
 

Originally by: Sobach
Originally by: Sokratesz


It may not save this girl but it may save many in the future, its called learning. People like that make very interesting test cases and its a *lot* more complicated than you make it out to be.


Obviously my sarcasm was lost on you. It's not as if we know nothing about psychology, we already know a lot, but how much has that helped? Too many parents today would rather have the TV/internet/anti-depressants do their parenting for them, and then blame everything else but themselves when their kid snaps. Honestly, how would knowing the reason why he decided to kill her help prevent others? please, I really would like to know.

We know what causes road rage, does that help prevent anyone from getting into road rage? Rolling Eyes


Compared to the chance of saving the victim, the chance to find out the reason behind his emo-rage is really not very high on my priority list. If it is on yours, then all I can say is you and I operate on a very different set of values and principals.


Yes your sarcasm must've been lost, but we were assuming the girl as dead already it was only the bit of him yes or no cutting her head off that would've changed. And assuming that digging into him will not help anything or anyone in the future doesn't help anyone by definition so we might as well try to find out what brought him to this deed. Worst case, a few psychology grads can make it a nice test case. Best case, people learn to recognise it next time so that intervention can happen long before it escalates.

Sobach
Fourth Circle
Total Comfort
Posted - 2009.01.24 23:42:00 - [41]
 

Originally by: Sokratesz

Yes your sarcasm must've been lost, but we were assuming the girl as dead already it was only the bit of him yes or no cutting her head off that would've changed. And assuming that digging into him will not help anything or anyone in the future doesn't help anyone by definition so we might as well try to find out what brought him to this deed. Worst case, a few psychology grads can make it a nice test case. Best case, people learn to recognise it next time so that intervention can happen long before it escalates.


I'd like to see you say that to the victim's family to their face, just something to think about.

There are MORE than plenty cases of murders and killings around for people who wants to study them, and I'll reiterate again, you can't "prevent" something like this from happening. How are you suppose to stop a guy who decides to kill his gf because she decides to dump him or if he thought she was cheating on him? Think about what you're saying.

Sokratesz
Rionnag Alba
Northern Coalition.
Posted - 2009.01.24 23:58:00 - [42]
 

Edited by: Sokratesz on 24/01/2009 23:58:58
Originally by: Sobach
Originally by: Sokratesz

Yes your sarcasm must've been lost, but we were assuming the girl as dead already it was only the bit of him yes or no cutting her head off that would've changed. And assuming that digging into him will not help anything or anyone in the future doesn't help anyone by definition so we might as well try to find out what brought him to this deed. Worst case, a few psychology grads can make it a nice test case. Best case, people learn to recognise it next time so that intervention can happen long before it escalates.


I'd like to see you say that to the victim's family to their face, just something to think about.

There are MORE than plenty cases of murders and killings around for people who wants to study them, and I'll reiterate again, you can't "prevent" something like this from happening. How are you suppose to stop a guy who decides to kill his gf because she decides to dump him or if he thought she was cheating on him? Think about what you're saying.


They will patch up the body a great deal before its shown to the relatives but that doesn't really matter anyway.

How about..you learn about his motives so you can recognise it in an earlier stage next time so he can get help? I'm sure there's plenty of cases where escalation has been prevented this way but those don't make the news obviously.

Sobach
Fourth Circle
Total Comfort
Posted - 2009.01.25 00:11:00 - [43]
 

Originally by: Sokratesz

They will patch up the body a great deal before its shown to the relatives but that doesn't really matter anyway.


That's really besides the point don't you think? At least, it sure has hell wouldn't matter to me if it was my son/daughter how well they put the body back together.

Originally by: Sokratesz
How about..you learn about his motives so you can recognise it in an earlier stage next time so he can get help? I'm sure there's plenty of cases where escalation has been prevented this way but those don't make the news obviously.


That's the thing, help is there for those who want it, the problem is that they need to decide to seek help themselves. You can't help people who doesn't want to help themselves.

What do you suggest? a national heart-broken monitor to find everyone who just got dumped? a therapist for every person who might be under financial stress or having family problems? At what point is a person going to start taking responsibility for themselves and their action?

In any case, the problem here isn't even that. If his problem is relationship based (and most likely it was, considering the circumstances), identifying the problem isn't the problem at all, HE KNOWS WHAT IT IS!!! it's what he DECIDED to do about the problem that is, well, the problem here. How does knowing that he got dumped will help anyone?


And how come I always end up arguing with you in OOPE anyway!LaughingLaughingLaughing

Shirley Serious
Amarr
The Khanid Sisters of Athra
Posted - 2009.01.25 00:12:00 - [44]
 

Originally by: Sobach

Actually I beg to differ, no amount surveillance could have prevented this from happening. It's obvious nobody thought he was thinking of killing anyone, his victim certainly didn't expect it.

as for the reaction time question, 1-4 really depends on where I am, but 5-7 really only takes as long as for me to draw my weapon, and given the sparsely populated cafe, 8 will probably occur the same time as 7.


One of the articles I linked has this:
Virginia Tech Police were trying to verify the authenticity of a posting on a Chinese-language blog earlier this month under the name Haiyang Zhu that expressed frustration over problems including stock losses, Chief Wendell Flinchum said Friday.
The Jan. 7 posting said, "Recently I've been so frustrated I think only of killing someone or committing suicide."

Need answers. Was this the guy? If it was, why were they so frustrated? Is the university workload too much? Do foreign students find the environment too stressful? Is it a welcoming and social environment? Things like that.


Also, I don't know about handguns, only shotguns, which I know are cumbersome. Give me an idea of timescale, from retrieving it from it's holster/your bag/wherever you keep it, to being in a position to shoot. 4 seconds? more? less?

Viceroy Cole
Caldari
Posted - 2009.01.25 00:12:00 - [45]
 

Originally by: Sokratesz

so what you rather have, her dead and him killed or her dead and him caught able to be properly punished for what he has done, and the family given the satisfaction of learning the story of how and why exactly.


If by properly punished meaning given life without parole in a cell with all the commodities of a small apartment with me paying the rent then I think the former is a better choice.

Sobach
Fourth Circle
Total Comfort
Posted - 2009.01.25 00:29:00 - [46]
 

Originally by: Shirley Serious

Also, I don't know about handguns, only shotguns, which I know are cumbersome. Give me an idea of timescale, from retrieving it from it's holster/your bag/wherever you keep it, to being in a position to shoot. 4 seconds? more? less?


It would take me less than a second to draw my M9 from a standard thigh holster and acquire a man-sized target. TBH, any experienced shooter should be able to send rounds downrange within a second or two of deciding to shoot.

Sokratesz
Rionnag Alba
Northern Coalition.
Posted - 2009.01.25 08:52:00 - [47]
 

Edited by: Sokratesz on 25/01/2009 08:56:18

Originally by: Viceroy Cole
Originally by: Sokratesz

so what you rather have, her dead and him killed or her dead and him caught able to be properly punished for what he has done, and the family given the satisfaction of learning the story of how and why exactly.


If by properly punished meaning given life without parole in a cell with all the commodities of a small apartment with me paying the rent then I think the former is a better choice.


We invented a justice system for that.

Originally by: Sobach
Originally by: Sokratesz

They will patch up the body a great deal before its shown to the relatives but that doesn't really matter anyway.


That's really besides the point don't you think? At least, it sure has hell wouldn't matter to me if it was my son/daughter how well they put the body back together


Yes because however painfully it is to the relatives they will probably not see her decapitated at all and it doesn't change anything about the situation we're discussing namely the killing of a girl with a knife. Whether or not she gets chopped in tiny bits afterwards is disgusting, but a none-issue here.


Originally by: Sobach
Originally by: Shirley Serious

Also, I don't know about handguns, only shotguns, which I know are cumbersome. Give me an idea of timescale, from retrieving it from it's holster/your bag/wherever you keep it, to being in a position to shoot. 4 seconds? more? less?


It would take me less than a second to draw my M9 from a standard thigh holster and acquire a man-sized target. TBH, any experienced shooter should be able to send rounds downrange within a second or two of deciding to shoot.


That is provided he is close enough, the effective range of handguns appears to be..lacking..often times. Still you fail to take in account the time it would take you to realise what the hell is going on (stabbing is silent - and if she doesn't scream, you won't notice it until someone else does, which may well be either 5 or 20 seconds after it happened)

Viceroy Cole
Caldari
Posted - 2009.01.25 09:17:00 - [48]
 

Originally by: Sokratesz
Edited by: Sokratesz on 25/01/2009 08:56:18

Originally by: Viceroy Cole
Originally by: Sokratesz

so what you rather have, her dead and him killed or her dead and him caught able to be properly punished for what he has done, and the family given the satisfaction of learning the story of how and why exactly.


If by properly punished meaning given life without parole in a cell with all the commodities of a small apartment with me paying the rent then I think the former is a better choice.


We invented a justice system for that.




A cryptic comic is your answer for justice? Please tell me how you see justice in a man who gets 3 square meals a day, TV and a dvd player in his tidy little cell, a roof over his head in a very secure area all expense paid while a pretty young lady gets to spend the rest of eternity 6 feet under as her parents grieve knowing they will never see her again. Psychology examination? Woo hoo, he gets to chat it up with a quack a few times a week so the guy can tell us something that 90% of the above average population already knows.

I'm all for locking people up but only when we decide to make a prison a prison and not a holiday resort. Why do you think certain mob members will take a fall for a higher up. They 'put up with it' while anything they want gets smuggled in by bribed officers and the higher up's on the food chain people can still operate, it's a win win. Hell I'd kill for that kind of life too would it not be for unruly neighbors.

The man forfeited her human rights so I don't see a problem with society forfeiting his.

Bellum Eternus
Gallente
The Scope
Posted - 2009.01.25 09:19:00 - [49]
 

Originally by: Shirley Serious

How long does it take someone to realise what's going on, then act?

1. You're having a coffee, everything seems normal.
2. Some guy out of your line of sight pulls a knife, then stabs someone.
3. You hear a scream, or squelch or something.
4. You think "Wtf was that?"
5. You grasp the situation.
6. You retrieve your weapon.
7. You arm it.
8. You have an opportunity to fire.

How long does that take?


Two seconds. Max. From a surrender position. And the first one and a half seconds of that two seconds is spent in numbers one through four.

I carry my sidearm in 'condition one' carry: round in the chamber, hammer back, safety on. In timed competition it takes me about a half second to go from empty hand to a bullet in the target, and that's if I'm taking it easy.

Sokratesz
Rionnag Alba
Northern Coalition.
Posted - 2009.01.25 09:22:00 - [50]
 

Edited by: Sokratesz on 25/01/2009 09:24:43
Originally by: Viceroy Cole

The man forfeited her human rights so I don't see a problem with society forfeiting his.


Eye for an Eye.

Fortunately that's not how our western society works, but you're free to propose a better alternative if you like.


Originally by: Bellum Eternus

Two seconds. Max. From a surrender position. And the first one and a half seconds of that two seconds is spent in numbers one through four.

I carry my sidearm in 'condition one' carry: round in the chamber, hammer back, safety on. In timed competition it takes me about a half second to go from empty hand to a bullet in the target, and that's if I'm taking it easy.


That's ideally, though. What if, like I said, it isn't immediately clear what's going on, (which would be quite likely in case of a knife incident) she would've been dead, and killing him wouldn't have changed anything about the outcome then.

Bellum Eternus
Gallente
The Scope
Posted - 2009.01.25 10:24:00 - [51]
 

Originally by: Sokratesz
Edited by: Sokratesz on 25/01/2009 09:24:43
Originally by: Viceroy Cole

The man forfeited her human rights so I don't see a problem with society forfeiting his.


Eye for an Eye.

Fortunately that's not how our western society works, but you're free to propose a better alternative if you like.


Originally by: Bellum Eternus

Two seconds. Max. From a surrender position. And the first one and a half seconds of that two seconds is spent in numbers one through four.

I carry my sidearm in 'condition one' carry: round in the chamber, hammer back, safety on. In timed competition it takes me about a half second to go from empty hand to a bullet in the target, and that's if I'm taking it easy.


That's ideally, though. What if, like I said, it isn't immediately clear what's going on, (which would be quite likely in case of a knife incident) she would've been dead, and killing him wouldn't have changed anything about the outcome then.


You're missing a few very critical points here:

1) The majority of the time between the attack happening and someone like myself bringing force to bear on the attacker will be spent assessing the situation, not with drawing/using my weapon. So debating the amount of time it would take to bring the weapon into action is irrelevant unless you're faced with a situation where someone already has a gun aimed at your head and you're trying to beat him to the draw.

2) The victim had *zero* chance to help herself, and the same for the rest of the onlookers. If someone were armed and present, at least there would be SOME chance, no matter how minute, that something *could* have been done to save her life.

SOME chance is *always* better than none. Every time. No exceptions. And who is to say that she is 100% guaranteed to be dead regardless of any outside interference? You can't.

However, I *can* say that without outside interference, she IS guaranteed to be dead, every single time. Because she's now dead. It's horrible and it could have possibly been stopped, at any number of instances between when he decided to do it and when it happened, and an armed citizen is the last most desperate line of defense, but failing all else, that's better than nothing.

Is killing someone with a handgun the first/best/optimal solution to keeping someone from being killed like that? No. But is it better than having an innocent person be DECAPITATED? Yes. After every other available option to prevent the crime has failed (and they DID FAIL) an armed citizen is what is left to put a stop to the unthinkable. And that girl had that chance taken away from her by some stupid law.

Sokratesz
Rionnag Alba
Northern Coalition.
Posted - 2009.01.25 11:24:00 - [52]
 

Absolutely right there, but I still question whether you would have noticed it in time and been able to take proper action in time. After she was dead he didn't pose a threat to anyone else so shooting him would've been useless.

Sobach
Fourth Circle
Total Comfort
Posted - 2009.01.25 19:23:00 - [53]
 

Originally by: Sokratesz
Absolutely right there, but I still question whether you would have noticed it in time and been able to take proper action in time. After she was dead he didn't pose a threat to anyone else so shooting him would've been useless.


We'll never know if indeed she could've been saved now. However, let me reiterate that knife attack victims don't usually die instantly, unlike what you see on movies or tv shows. It's not like he stabbed her a few times and she just fall over and die on the spot.

Originally by: Sokratesz
That is provided he is close enough, the effective range of handguns appears to be..lacking..often times.


That's a common misconception. Modern pistols are actually quite accurate, usually far more accurate than the shooter. Basically, the effective range of a handgun is only as far as the shooter's skill with it. Many quality handguns today can shoot a pretty tight grouping out to 75-100 meters when shot from a supported position, so when you hear someone whining about how they can't hit the broad side of a barn 25 meters away with a pistol, chances are it's the shooter that's the problem ;)

Forceflow
Chernobyl Trading Corporation
Posted - 2009.01.25 19:43:00 - [54]
 

@Sobach

You could and would act in such a way because you're a trained soldier. THe first thoughts of civilian bystander would be a progression from wtf to omg this isn't happening. Having ametuers trying to play hero is a recpie for disaster. At best he/she might get themselves hurt badly, at worse they might infuriate the assailant into attacking other bystanders.

Also you seen to forget the fact that University grounds are by law, gun-free locations. Students shouldn't be carrying arms. All you need is a very heated arguement, and someone armed and not really thinking straight, to get guns being drawn and lots more school shootings.

Sobach
Fourth Circle
Total Comfort
Posted - 2009.01.25 20:26:00 - [55]
 

Edited by: Sobach on 25/01/2009 20:26:51
Originally by: Forceflow

Also you seen to forget the fact that University grounds are by law, gun-free locations. Students shouldn't be carrying arms. All you need is a very heated arguement, and someone armed and not really thinking straight, to get guns being drawn and lots more school shootings.


I think we were just arguing the hypothetical Cool

The thing is, I'm not saying every one should carry a gun. Most CCW holders are very much aware of the responsibility that comes with carrying a firearm, and that's why you don't see the doomsday scenarios that are often espoused by the anti-gun groups come true when some states pass laws to allow concealed carry. Besides, guns being outlawed in schools hasn't exactly stopped people from bringing guns to shoot people when they wanted to has it?

However, I will admit that mixing the stereotypical collect party kids with guns isn't exactly a comforting image to me either :)

Bellum Eternus
Gallente
The Scope
Posted - 2009.01.26 14:28:00 - [56]
 

Originally by: Forceflow
@Sobach

You could and would act in such a way because you're a trained soldier. THe first thoughts of civilian bystander would be a progression from wtf to omg this isn't happening. Having ametuers trying to play hero is a recpie for disaster. At best he/she might get themselves hurt badly, at worse they might infuriate the assailant into attacking other bystanders.

Also you seen to forget the fact that University grounds are by law, gun-free locations. Students shouldn't be carrying arms. All you need is a very heated arguement, and someone armed and not really thinking straight, to get guns being drawn and lots more school shootings.


Again, yet another example of someone projecting their personal capabilities onto others. Just because the above would be your thought process doesn't mean that it would be the same for everyone else.

Second, yes, we are fully aware of the law. We're not talking about what is/isn't against the law, we're discussing whether or not it would have done any good if someone had been there to defend the victim.

Third, because someone is a student they're suddenly more dangerous than anyone else who is allowed to carry a firearm? I am both a student in college and licensed to carry a concealed firearm. Everyone that I know that has a CCW permit, student or otherwise, is on the 'very responsible' end of the spectrum of people, not the 'beer swilling frat boy' end.

The guys who are going to get drunk, get in a fight and pull a gun are not the CCW crowd. They're the opposite crowd. CCW people have gone out of their way to work within the law to obtain a CCW permit and are going to take extreme measures to make sure that their permit isn't revoked. This includes avoiding needless confrontation at all costs (i.e. getting drunk and getting in a fight, particularly while armed).

I don't see why people such as yourself don't think through what you're posting before you post it here. What you're saying makes absolutely no sense what so ever, logically or otherwise.

Brea Lafail
Posted - 2009.01.26 14:53:00 - [57]
 

Originally by: Forceflow
THe first thoughts of civilian bystander would be a progression from wtf to omg this isn't happening. Having ametuers trying to play hero is a recpie for disaster. At best he/she might get themselves hurt badly, at worse they might infuriate the assailant into attacking other bystanders.


Pretty much this.

Last thing this situation needed would be some confused kid with a gun. What if he shoots the wrong guy, thinking he was the assailant? Or if he misses? Or someone runs through the line of fire in an attempt to GTFO?

Also, if you're just sitting there chatting with friends, I doubt any person could respond quickly enough to save someone from a sudden knife attack. Unless you're some paranoid nut and expect a knife wielding psycho at any moment, no.

Also, some people don't appear to realize (or maybe the don't care) that self-defense =/ vigilante justice.

Bellum Eternus
Gallente
The Scope
Posted - 2009.01.26 15:22:00 - [58]
 

Originally by: Brea Lafail
Originally by: Forceflow
THe first thoughts of civilian bystander would be a progression from wtf to omg this isn't happening. Having ametuers trying to play hero is a recpie for disaster. At best he/she might get themselves hurt badly, at worse they might infuriate the assailant into attacking other bystanders.


Pretty much this.

Last thing this situation needed would be some confused kid with a gun. What if he shoots the wrong guy, thinking he was the assailant? Or if he misses? Or someone runs through the line of fire in an attempt to GTFO?

Also, if you're just sitting there chatting with friends, I doubt any person could respond quickly enough to save someone from a sudden knife attack. Unless you're some paranoid nut and expect a knife wielding psycho at any moment, no.

Also, some people don't appear to realize (or maybe the don't care) that self-defense =/ vigilante justice.



I bolded all the senseless parts with nothing to back up your argument. Rolling Eyes

Misses? Hits someone else by mistake? HELLO? Are you making these suppositions because that's something that you would do when you're discharging a firearm? Or do you just think that everyone on the planet are just a bunch of incompetent idiots?

As an example, I would *never* discharge a firearm at someone if I wasn't sure it was the right thing to do at the time. This includes ensuring that I'm not firing at a target where people might be behind it, or firing at the incorrect target, or firing at a target where there are bystanders running around.

There is always the chance that something could go horribly wrong, but *naturally* the person with the handgun would be taking every possible precaution to ensure that doesn't happen. Otherwise they'd be charged with manslaughter or worse if it did.

And if someone is screaming bloody murder (literally) and being DECAPITATED, I'm sure I would be aware enough to notice and come to their aid.

Or are you just being obtuse on purpose?

Forceflow
Chernobyl Trading Corporation
Posted - 2009.01.26 16:27:00 - [59]
 

Originally by: Bellum Eternus
Again, yet another example of someone projecting their personal capabilities onto others. Just because the above would be your thought process doesn't mean that it would be the same for everyone else.



->
Originally by: Bellum Eternus
As an example, I would *never* discharge a firearm at someone if I wasn't sure it was the right thing to do at the time. This includes ensuring that I'm not firing at a target where people might be behind it, or firing at the incorrect target, or firing at a target where there are bystanders running around.


I bolded your parts too. Smile Well done for shooting yourself in the foot.

To respond properly, I would be taking the most likey (and generous) mindset that could have resulted in the latest attack at Virginia Tech. That the seven seated there must have been shocked and froze is the most possible scenario as the attack unfolded as it did: that they did not move to help. It also happens to be infinitly preferrable to another reading: in which they saw, understood and did not care what was going on.

Originally by: Bellum Eternus
Second, yes, we are fully aware of the law. We're not talking about what is/isn't against the law, we're discussing whether or not it would have done any good if someone had been there to defend the victim.


And as responded so eloquently by Sobach: arguing the hypothetical. I didn't get that the first time, now I do. Next.

Originally by: Bellum Eternus
Third, because someone is a student they're suddenly more dangerous than anyone else who is allowed to carry a firearm? I am both a student in college and licensed to carry a concealed firearm. Everyone that I know that has a CCW permit, student or otherwise, is on the 'very responsible' end of the spectrum of people, not the 'beer swilling frat boy' end.

The guys who are going to get drunk, get in a fight and pull a gun are not the CCW crowd. They're the opposite crowd. CCW people have gone out of their way to work within the law to obtain a CCW permit and are going to take extreme measures to make sure that their permit isn't revoked. This includes avoiding needless confrontation at all costs (i.e. getting drunk and getting in a fight, particularly while armed).


I refer to my first sentence once more. You hold people to your high standards. While laudable, it is also ridiculous. I'm a university student as well. I was on campus when 3-4 idiots had a fight with an AK-47 just a short hop from where I was. Now those who have their permits may act in such a manner but that does not hide the fact that guns are getting into the hands of those least qualified to hold them.

I will hope that those who still bear arms will be able to exercise discretion. However, don't blame me for assuming the very worst in human nature. We just have to look in the history books to see what we're capable of.

Originally by: Bellum Eternus
I don't see why people such as yourself don't think through what you're posting before you post it here. What you're saying makes absolutely no sense what so ever, logically or otherwise.


Laughing

Viceroy Cole
Caldari
Posted - 2009.01.26 16:48:00 - [60]
 

Originally by: Forceflow


I bolded your parts



wha wha whaaaaaat!Shocked


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